I recently added the 4th jace and the countersquall. I think the removal is tight and overall the MB is powerful in all match ups = no rock paper scissors matches. The sideboard definitely tailors to all types of decks. TH and duress are a nice combo for polymorph decks. TH is great for vengevine, etc...
What do you think of the snappers. I really seem to die against quick RDW or quick aggro decks. Snapper helps against turn three 5+ damage attacks. What do you think about replacing snapper with gatekeeper?
Hey, when you guys test your deck online, do you do so on MTGonline or is there some other way/website?
Other news: got 5th at FNM. I went 3-1, lost 2-0 to Jund but won 2-0 against polymorph, 2-0 against 40lands deck, 2-1 against time sieve deck (that was hard, pre SB i got owned, post SB i had a lot of hate and won). Telemin performance pretty much dominated. Especially in my meta, I am keeping one on SB.
Seems like there have been alot of confusion/ different variations of grixis lately. No one has found one that works completely and will become a basic net deck. Here is my deck list, I have been messing around a lot.
Im going to the trials this sunday, will post results.
I really like having sorin and vess. After a blightning or two, jace bounce to vess discard is beautiful. Not to mention getting that land or cruel or _____ when needed. Sorin is great too, to handle tight situations or the needed win earlier in game.
Seems like a shortage of wincons for me. You're relying on your man lands and earthquake to finish what cruel can't.
Cruel is a win con only as a bomb. This deck is pretty standard. Landing a cruel t7 allows you to win a few turns later. All you need are any combination or just on of bolts, man lands, eq, sorin, another cruel, jace, creatures... seems like a lot of win cons. Most of the time you don't cruel ftw, you cruel to allow yourself to win.
Maybe they feel the same way I do... that he got a little lucky?
Who knows... Personally whether this deck discussion is here or Competitive, doesn't matter to me none. Its solid no matter where we're at.
We'll move back eventually... Other then getting the separate sub forums, I personally don't like the strictness of that Competitive section and don't mind our deck list being here.
I basically stuck to the original build myself, cept I moved the Counters to the SB and brought in Siege Gang and brough BACK Sedraxis. In my original build I had Sedraxis. Like you guys I ain't 100% set on the PTQ list, but I made some similar adjustments towards it, but still kept a good majority of what we all were doing and discussing.
I don't mind that this deck is in development. It really doesn't matter to me, I like the deck not the attention.
As for the post ROE/PTQ build: Im a oldschool player. I like the classic draw mechanism control has, etc. I totally see the benefits of specter and blightning and the reason these can replace draw since it slows down the opponent rather than speeding up your draw. If the meta is really shifting this way, I really don't see board sweepers being MB. Its up to your meta ultimately. I think taking out sweepers and draw can be done for blightning and specter. Ill probably keep my counters, but who knows.
I have exams this week and after, Ill be heading to FNM to play for the first time in a few weeks. I have ordered some cards so Ill be testing. One thing is that if you are really going with specter and blightning, Liliana Vess might be good too?
Ill definitely post after FNM how my meta has changed and what Ive changed/experienced.
i am depressed of what this deck is going too. No counterspell's main board make me horribly sad.
I will probably stop discussing with you guys, until we get back to a more Controlish deck type, il be reading, thanks for the discussions!
So, are you sticking to more control boards like originally?
Im hesitant to start building my deck like these new builds, and would like to stick with control. Can anyone advocate for the original builds still?
I've been looking for ways to abuse Sedraxis Specter lately, and this might be the way.
On another note,
Is anyone else dumbfounded by the fact that there is not a single Jund deck in that T8?
Haha, I wonder if so many people brought decks just to beat Jund that no one actually brought Jund!
On the other note, I am quite happy that Grixis won that PTQ but I am unhappy that it wasn't our builds that won. I wonder if some compromise between that decklist and the archetype of ours can be made. Things to note, he has one draw mechanism: Jace (Spreading seas but still missing 4 other draws). It also seems like one strategy is discard. Our decks slow the opponent slightly and use draw to catch up, while this deck seems to slow the opponent more by not only using removal but also discard. That way, he doesn't need the draw and can add in more removal/creature that add to removal and discard. The abundance of creatures ensures a full, good use of Jace, and life protection. I also think that the extra Gatekeepers (in combo with terminate) are effective replacements for Vapors. This ultimately gives that deck more speed and removal early, rather than waiting for a 4th turn vapors.
well i just ran my list through the gauntlet of Jund, UW, UWR, Vampires, naya boss and allies, RDW, and WW.
This deck is so ridiculously good i cant even see straight.
See the above post, it is true rofl.
Now onto some business. for those of you cutting Jace2.0, I can understand why you want to, i mean i 4 mana brainstorm and fog isn't bad, but sin't overly amazing. Now i run four jaces at the moment in order to deffinately have one stay alive, and everytime i play him he seems just to good to pass up. if they hit him wonderful, i got a brainstorm and an angelsong, if they don't for some god awful reason, i win. it feels to me that unless you are playing jund (which they can pulse the damn guy) everytime I get to untap with him i REALLY tend to win. i think he is just to bonkers not to run even only as a one or two of. he is just so damn solid all over. like one game against jund they turn two leech, i shot it at the end of my turn two, he played thnax and i passed, he bloodbraided into blightning and i Double negative then played jace bouncing his thrinax, and he just played siege gang, sweet i EQ for two and proceed to win the game. i feel like bolt or terminate with Double and jace in hand you just win. i can barely think of any deck that can really beat that save maybe UW.
also do you guys really think Consuming Vapors or Consume the meek is bad? i mean at worst consume is a 5mana kill man land against control, and often it is much more than that. i can see Vapore being really lackluster against control decks, but it still hits wall of omens and elspeth tokens, which is something. i think the two cards are just to good against every other deck in the format to not be played. even against jund vapors is great. it hits a stag awesome. if it hits anything else that isn't 1/1 tokens it is even better. 2 for 1 removal that gains life seems pretty good right now.
In my testing the only deck that really gave me trouble was UW with counters, and the occasional nut draw jund deck. i feel this deck will; soon break through tier 2 status if someone would just pick it up lol.
and is everyone taking liliana out? i haven't yet but have been meaning to. oh and could anyone post there board for me here is mine
Care to post your deck, if you haven't already? Honestly, I think grixis is great and can make it. When i perform well, I smoke all opponents. The only "real" reason I lose is because I am relatively new to standard, and I am still learning what is a threat and what is not - when to counter, when not to, etc - based on the cards circulating the meta.
x4 Cruels? I'm guessing since you run 4 See Beyonds, you're comfortable with this move? Seems like it could be ok with the See Beyonds...
Some people are running a nicol bolas and 3 cruels. I think it seems like too much mana cost in the deck. I think its either 3 cruels or 2 cruels and nicol. This is assuming nicol is even worth it. I have him in just to playtest, which I havent done so yet.
There are just so few decks that gain life right now, using Sorin's -3 first ensures that i will get it off. For example, against Jund it only takes a BBE into Pulse, Bolt, or Blightning to kill him. If Mythic plays Finest Hour or Soveirgns of Lost Alara they generally have enough damage to kill Sorin. Even following Sorin with T7 Sphinx is enough to put players on the defensive, and giving them the opportunity to kill Sorin with a spell or attack gets them away from using those spells on my life total.
Excellent point. Will definitely consider this next time I play!
Thanks for all the help. I am trying to get a solid list up to playtest casually. I want to keep the theme of MUC but use jace as a tempo builder, first. He will be extremely important in draw and creature bounce, which can go hand in hand with cyptic command. I moved to ancestral vision as a 4of. I think accelerating your draw into counters like force of will and a jace and creature like plumveil really sets up the ability to keep tempo while using shackles to gain more protection and then win, powder keg for removal, etc. Back to basics will help slow down the opponent to set up full board control. Even if you snag a few creatures with shackles, have a plumeveil or two out with a jace. Counters and cryptic and powderkeg will just let you build up jace for an ultimate.
Artifacts = 6
3x Powder Keg
3x Vedalken Shackles
Creatures = 4
1x Sphinx of Jwar Isle
3x Plumeveil
Sorcery = 10
4x Ancestral Vision
3x Back to Basics
3x Fact or Fiction
Instants = 13
4x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
2x Cryptic Command
3x Spell Snare
Planeswalkers = 3
3x Jace the Mindsculptor
Lands = 24
1x Academy Ruins
19x Islands
4x fetch land
Im not sure if spell snare is needed. I guess ill see in playtesting, but an option is -3snares +2 crypt and +1 something else for other changes.
I was confused by some earlier posts, like dlite's. Were you suggesting to run both plumeveil and snapper?
We have completely different builds, but this is great. For those who cut creatures, ie Snapper, have you been finding that Jace dies more, or becomes problematic like Towana has experienced? This is just out of curiosity. For me, sure: without snapper Jace sometimes dies early. But I still get great use out of him.
Tokwana, I tend to use Sorin a tad bit differently. I almost always use his +2 readily. I do so in order to get rid of creatures (if I can) and really to gain some life over the next few turns. I use him in this regard as a safety mechanism: 1) He (especially when Jace is out too) is just another player target for my opponent to worry about; 2) Building him up ensures life gain and the ability to play his -3 after a few turns and still keep him alive to use his +2 post 10 life for the opponent. I only use his -3 when I have a bolt or two in hand, a tarpit or two out, and/or a cruel ready to play knowing it cant be countered. Only then, do you know you can win in 2 or 3 turns, ie drop him to 10, and swing with a tarpit and bolt. Tarpit next few turns and/or cruel or EQ (or comet storm in your case) to finish.
I two have cut my counters to just 4 hard counters - double neg. This opens up 2 slots for into the roil to add some draw mid game when needed and to return some permanents to opponents hand, such as planewalkers, thrinax, orings, etc. This ultimately buys me a turn or two by slowing them down. Combined with removal and roil and counters, playing a jace for more control and then a cruel t7 is perfect.
Thanks again for your post. Ive seen many variations of the grixis control. Some do well, some don't. I personally do not like the decks that consist heavy red/black blightning and chandra. You don't see many though.
Wow, you have basically the same deck I will be playtesting. If you add one more jace and take out 1 cruel, and -2 meek for +2 EQ they are exactly the same (pg142 is decklist).
The minute I saw your build, I thought: great against aggro and creature based decks. Bad against control and jund.
Our builds are really solid. The real problem with them, I think, is sideboarding. Every game I loose it is because of sideboarding issues. I ask someone to explain me exact situations with sideboarding. That question is in my post on pg 142. On pg142, Rk_wren kindly wrote a detailed description on what to do. The basics of it:
Jund: Sideboard in 3-4 flashfreezes and sideboard out mainboard counters except double neg. Only flashfreeze for Ruinblaster, blightning, and thrinax. Sideboard in duress and removal into the roil to protect yourself against blightning and pulse.
Control: Focus only on getting cruel resolved. Vapors, terminates, and EQ are good. Lightning bolts and hardcounters are bad. Usually you make sure you have 4 duress and 4 negates in place. Jace is also not good, just use him to get rid of their jace and keep mana open.
As for RDW. This is my personal tip. I play creatureless, but everytime I play RDW i put in 3 snappers again. They stop almost every creature. With snappers in, you can terminate/counter the big haste creatures. Use flashfreeze and negate againt bolts and other burn cards. Its really easy to control the game with snapper. If you get him out 3rd turn, you will control the match in two turns. Then you get sorin and jace out. Fateseal and kill creatures/gain life to counter the burn. This is just my opinion, but since Vapors is expensive, it may not be needed against RDW. maybe 3 flashfreeze in place. Add negates and duress to.
I recently added the 4th jace and the countersquall. I think the removal is tight and overall the MB is powerful in all match ups = no rock paper scissors matches. The sideboard definitely tailors to all types of decks. TH and duress are a nice combo for polymorph decks. TH is great for vengevine, etc...
What do you think of the snappers. I really seem to die against quick RDW or quick aggro decks. Snapper helps against turn three 5+ damage attacks. What do you think about replacing snapper with gatekeeper?
Other news: got 5th at FNM. I went 3-1, lost 2-0 to Jund but won 2-0 against polymorph, 2-0 against 40lands deck, 2-1 against time sieve deck (that was hard, pre SB i got owned, post SB i had a lot of hate and won). Telemin performance pretty much dominated. Especially in my meta, I am keeping one on SB.
Seems like there have been alot of confusion/ different variations of grixis lately. No one has found one that works completely and will become a basic net deck. Here is my deck list, I have been messing around a lot.
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Swamp
3x Island
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Crumbling Necropolis
2x Mountain
3x Dragonskull Summit
2x Creeping Tar Pit
1x Lavaclaw Reaches
Planeswalkers = 5
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Sorin Markov
1x Liliana Vess
3x Siege-Gang Commander
Sorceries = 14
4x Spreading Seas
4x Blightning
3x Cruel Ultimatum
3x Consuming Vapors
Instants = 12
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Terminate
2x Consume the Meek
2x Into the Roil
4x Duress
3x Flashfreeze
2x Pithing Needle
3x Negate
1x Telemin Performance
2x Thought Hemorrhage
Im going to the trials this sunday, will post results.
I really like having sorin and vess. After a blightning or two, jace bounce to vess discard is beautiful. Not to mention getting that land or cruel or _____ when needed. Sorin is great too, to handle tight situations or the needed win earlier in game.
Cruel is a win con only as a bomb. This deck is pretty standard. Landing a cruel t7 allows you to win a few turns later. All you need are any combination or just on of bolts, man lands, eq, sorin, another cruel, jace, creatures... seems like a lot of win cons. Most of the time you don't cruel ftw, you cruel to allow yourself to win.
Ya Grixis control is 8th on that list. I rather happy since its the normal grixis and not the new version
I don't mind that this deck is in development. It really doesn't matter to me, I like the deck not the attention.
As for the post ROE/PTQ build: Im a oldschool player. I like the classic draw mechanism control has, etc. I totally see the benefits of specter and blightning and the reason these can replace draw since it slows down the opponent rather than speeding up your draw. If the meta is really shifting this way, I really don't see board sweepers being MB. Its up to your meta ultimately. I think taking out sweepers and draw can be done for blightning and specter. Ill probably keep my counters, but who knows.
I have exams this week and after, Ill be heading to FNM to play for the first time in a few weeks. I have ordered some cards so Ill be testing. One thing is that if you are really going with specter and blightning, Liliana Vess might be good too?
Ill definitely post after FNM how my meta has changed and what Ive changed/experienced.
So, are you sticking to more control boards like originally?
Im hesitant to start building my deck like these new builds, and would like to stick with control. Can anyone advocate for the original builds still?
Haha, I wonder if so many people brought decks just to beat Jund that no one actually brought Jund!
On the other note, I am quite happy that Grixis won that PTQ but I am unhappy that it wasn't our builds that won. I wonder if some compromise between that decklist and the archetype of ours can be made. Things to note, he has one draw mechanism: Jace (Spreading seas but still missing 4 other draws). It also seems like one strategy is discard. Our decks slow the opponent slightly and use draw to catch up, while this deck seems to slow the opponent more by not only using removal but also discard. That way, he doesn't need the draw and can add in more removal/creature that add to removal and discard. The abundance of creatures ensures a full, good use of Jace, and life protection. I also think that the extra Gatekeepers (in combo with terminate) are effective replacements for Vapors. This ultimately gives that deck more speed and removal early, rather than waiting for a 4th turn vapors.
Care to post your deck, if you haven't already? Honestly, I think grixis is great and can make it. When i perform well, I smoke all opponents. The only "real" reason I lose is because I am relatively new to standard, and I am still learning what is a threat and what is not - when to counter, when not to, etc - based on the cards circulating the meta.
Some people are running a nicol bolas and 3 cruels. I think it seems like too much mana cost in the deck. I think its either 3 cruels or 2 cruels and nicol. This is assuming nicol is even worth it. I have him in just to playtest, which I havent done so yet.
Excellent point. Will definitely consider this next time I play!
What about jace's brainstorm? 4 fetches will be okay with jaces 0 ability and will slim the deck down too.
Artifacts = 6
3x Powder Keg
3x Vedalken Shackles
Creatures = 4
1x Sphinx of Jwar Isle
3x Plumeveil
Sorcery = 10
4x Ancestral Vision
3x Back to Basics
3x Fact or Fiction
Instants = 13
4x Counterspell
4x Force of Will
2x Cryptic Command
3x Spell Snare
Planeswalkers = 3
3x Jace the Mindsculptor
Lands = 24
1x Academy Ruins
19x Islands
4x fetch land
Im not sure if spell snare is needed. I guess ill see in playtesting, but an option is -3snares +2 crypt and +1 something else for other changes.
I was confused by some earlier posts, like dlite's. Were you suggesting to run both plumeveil and snapper?
LOOKS GOOD!
We have completely different builds, but this is great. For those who cut creatures, ie Snapper, have you been finding that Jace dies more, or becomes problematic like Towana has experienced? This is just out of curiosity. For me, sure: without snapper Jace sometimes dies early. But I still get great use out of him.
Tokwana, I tend to use Sorin a tad bit differently. I almost always use his +2 readily. I do so in order to get rid of creatures (if I can) and really to gain some life over the next few turns. I use him in this regard as a safety mechanism: 1) He (especially when Jace is out too) is just another player target for my opponent to worry about; 2) Building him up ensures life gain and the ability to play his -3 after a few turns and still keep him alive to use his +2 post 10 life for the opponent. I only use his -3 when I have a bolt or two in hand, a tarpit or two out, and/or a cruel ready to play knowing it cant be countered. Only then, do you know you can win in 2 or 3 turns, ie drop him to 10, and swing with a tarpit and bolt. Tarpit next few turns and/or cruel or EQ (or comet storm in your case) to finish.
I two have cut my counters to just 4 hard counters - double neg. This opens up 2 slots for into the roil to add some draw mid game when needed and to return some permanents to opponents hand, such as planewalkers, thrinax, orings, etc. This ultimately buys me a turn or two by slowing them down. Combined with removal and roil and counters, playing a jace for more control and then a cruel t7 is perfect.
Thanks again for your post. Ive seen many variations of the grixis control. Some do well, some don't. I personally do not like the decks that consist heavy red/black blightning and chandra. You don't see many though.
Wow, you have basically the same deck I will be playtesting. If you add one more jace and take out 1 cruel, and -2 meek for +2 EQ they are exactly the same (pg142 is decklist).
The minute I saw your build, I thought: great against aggro and creature based decks. Bad against control and jund.
Our builds are really solid. The real problem with them, I think, is sideboarding. Every game I loose it is because of sideboarding issues. I ask someone to explain me exact situations with sideboarding. That question is in my post on pg 142. On pg142, Rk_wren kindly wrote a detailed description on what to do. The basics of it:
Jund: Sideboard in 3-4 flashfreezes and sideboard out mainboard counters except double neg. Only flashfreeze for Ruinblaster, blightning, and thrinax. Sideboard in duress and removal into the roil to protect yourself against blightning and pulse.
Control: Focus only on getting cruel resolved. Vapors, terminates, and EQ are good. Lightning bolts and hardcounters are bad. Usually you make sure you have 4 duress and 4 negates in place. Jace is also not good, just use him to get rid of their jace and keep mana open.
As for RDW. This is my personal tip. I play creatureless, but everytime I play RDW i put in 3 snappers again. They stop almost every creature. With snappers in, you can terminate/counter the big haste creatures. Use flashfreeze and negate againt bolts and other burn cards. Its really easy to control the game with snapper. If you get him out 3rd turn, you will control the match in two turns. Then you get sorin and jace out. Fateseal and kill creatures/gain life to counter the burn. This is just my opinion, but since Vapors is expensive, it may not be needed against RDW. maybe 3 flashfreeze in place. Add negates and duress to.