He's not being difficult really, it's just we prioritize differently. He cares about the rule in practice, consistency across formats, and ban scares hurting the format (correct me if I summed that up wrong Seth)
Largely, yes. My sticking point is that a deck can be 'top-tier' without being overly powerful. And I don't think that a deck should get banned for being 'top tier.' But the turn 4 rule declares that if you're top tier and win before turn 4 consistently, you're banned. That seems highly problematic to me when one considers the fact that it ultimately isn't any better than the other Tier 1 decks, but because it ticks off an arbitrary criteria, it loses.
I don't have a problem with the run 4 rule per-se, as even the other formats have a similar unwritten rule.
The real problem with the ban list as it stands now, is the cards on the ban list are arbitrarily done so in that they have nothing to do with that rule.
An unbanning of a certain subset of blue enabler cards, would allow more suffocating decks to arise (++ more decks in the field ++)(like the ones preferred by a large set of the player base) which would then slow the format down (++ self policing format ++) which would allow the ban list to shrink to only those cards which are extremely broken.
Dear god control players with such stupid ideas as changing the rules so spells can't be played turn 1 should really just go play standard where their damned archetype is always king by the end of the season.
Draw-go is not necessary for the game to be good, Legacy doesn't have one such deck, neither Stasis nor Miracles play draw-go. Draw-go has been mediocre in Duel Commander for years and they're not crying about it, not even Augustin IV or Wydwen players. Why the hell do you believe it's needed in Modern enough to propose changing the rules so that aggro stops existing for the sake of draw-go being viable?
Are you joking? Implementing a 4 turn rule is just as much an abomination of the rules as making it illegal to cast spells on turn 1.
Draw Go is a format policing deck. FOR-MAT POL-EES-ING! if you simply unban the necessary cards to allow a draw go deck to exist, the format will police itself!
The ban list could be cut by 60%. The 4 turn rule wouldn't be necessary, because draw-go eliminates all the combo decks, that the ban list is artificially trying to prevent.
The answer to all of moderns problems is staring you in the face because everyones paranoid about the big bad suffocating draw-go deck. Draw-go ruled standard in Zendikar because the rest of the field was pathetic and weak.
If draw go existed right now, it wouldn't be suffocating. It couldn't be. Even with all the ponder/preordain/jace/mental misstep all unbanned. The rest of the field is too strong for draw-go to be suffocating. But it would provide enough balance enough to police out the combo decks you don't want.
only a fool says modern should exist without the benefit of a draw-go style deck.
I'm glad Wizards introduced the turn 4 rule. This saves us from all those stupid draw-go controll decks...
Wat?
This makes no sense. The turn 4 rule is against overpowered aggro or combo decks that win reliably before turn 4, it has nothing to do with slow control decks like draw-go that win on something like turn 12 or more. I have no clue what you are trying to say here. Are you confusing draw-go control with older, more powerful versions of storm combo before they banned stuff like Seething Song?
if blue was allowed to play its natural support role, and efficient counterspell decks had the tools to be effective (ponder/preordain/jtms), then the format would police itself.
the thing which stops low threat density combo decks is blue control. if a decks like a modern version of cawblade or superfriends were allowed to exist, there would be no need to have a turn 4 rule, almost nothing would ever win on turn 4. all of the fast cards which have been banned because of the run 4 rule, could be unbanned, and THE POWER LEVEL of the format would virtually remain unchanged. The people who are afraid of the suffocating blue control decks are the ones who are actually unbalancing and ruining the format, and the data from the overextended ban list is there to prove it.
wow you guys have a couple pages of just back and forth argument. I wanted to drop in just to see what cards you all feel should be addressed or at least discussed with their overall power levels in modern, now that GP Boston is gone and over with we have quite a few moles popping their heads out that scream pretty darn strong.
Nothing needs to be banned or unbanned. The format is in an alright place right now.
Apparently not, considering they removed modern from all PT events for the coming year... SOMEONE isn't happy with modern.
]None of them play Manriki-Gusari, which costs 1 less mana to equip and whose extra ability (taking out equipment) is more relevant than what Sword of the Meek offers. Why in the world would they play Sword of the Meek if Manriki-Gusari is too weak to play?
The key difference for some of those decks is the triggered equipping to a new 1/1 coming into play. You can pitch a Sword to something like Faithless Looting or Thirst for Knowledge in a Delver of Secrets or Young Pyromancer based deck, or to Liliana of the Veil in a deck like 8rack or Faeries, and then when you play another delver or get a token from Bitterblossom or whatever, you've now got a 2/3 creature that is resistant to Electrolyze and Pyroclasm. And if it's a Delver that flips, it's now a 4/4 which is out of bolt range too (and shaves a full 2 turns off the normal delver clock). Obviously not every deck will necessarily want it, but it does present some new and possibly useful options to a few of them, while it does almost nothing for combo decks and very little for most midrange decks.
If built correctly the SotM decks will have unlimited blockers to stop, slow down aggro. Hurting aggro even more.
Assuming you can get the combo out before aggro rolls right over you, yes.
In Legacy with fast mana (Sol Lands, Chrome Mox, rituals, Monoliths, etc), good artifact tutors like Transmute Artifact and Stoneforge Mystic, a massive quantity of sheer card selection cards like Brainstorm and Ponder, and access to the actual artifact lands, I'd tend to agree with you.
In Modern, there's almost no fast mana (Mox Opal is the only legitimate accelerator and only in specific decks) and the only reliable tutors for both halves of the combo are things like Fabricate and Tezzeret the Seeker, it's going to be turn 5 or later before your combo is on line and that's devoting almost all your resources to getting it set up and in play, not stopping the aggro deck. If you stretch, you could Steelshaper's Gift for the Sword on turn 1, play it on 2, and Fabricate on turn 3 for Foundry, and play it on 4 with enough mana to make 2 tokens and gain 2 whole life. Disciple of Deceit gets both halves and is in the right colors, but won't untap until turn 3 at earliest to get 1 piece and turn 4 for the other. Either way you're not getting more than a 1 or 2 tokens until turn 5, and expending most of your mana to do so, so not hindering the aggro deck's advancement much.
Even if you have both pieces in hand in your opening 7, you're devoting turn 2 to playing once piece, turn 3 to playing the other and maybe getting 1 blocker. It's not until turn 4 that you can start churning out any reliable number of blockers. And again, this presumes you had both pieces in hand and don't miss your land drops. If you stumble on either, most aggro decks (affinity, boggles, infect, burn, even little zoo) are probably going to roll over you before you can recover.
So the only real shell for the full Thopter/Sword combo is a control deck which can afford to actual interact with aggro for a few turns, maybe wipe the board, and then go fetch the combo once it's mid to late game as a finisher. That does not seem overpowered or backbreaking to aggro any more than the existing "I lightning bolt or electrolyze your first 12 creatures with Snapcaster flashbacks!" situation.
You're also vulnerable to exactly the same hate that people side against affinity. Stony Silence and Rest in Peace affect none of the good or borderline aggro decks in the format (bar Affinity, obviously), and both completely shut off the Thopter combo. Ancient Grudge can kill the Foundry, stalling the combo. Pithing Needle and Phyrexian Revoker both also shut off the important part of Foundry without any downside at all, and are playable in every deck (and are often in sideboards as anti-pod and anti-planeswalker tech).
Honestly, I think Sword actually helps aggro in some ways (and not just in the sense that a few of them could actually use it themselves). Giving existing control decks (or enabling entirely new control decks) a way to survive mid-range's assault and move to the late game would likely improve the number and quality of control decks in the meta. In turn, aggro decks usually tend to prey on control decks but are weak to midrange decks. More decks with Foundry/Sword would be more positive aggro matchups and fewer positive matchups for midrange decks (which are negative matchups for most aggro decks).
Its already hard enough to build your main 60 and 15 side cards without adding another deck to have to side for. I am not thinking right now is the time for SotM to come off. All it will do is hurt aggro at the moment. Maybe in the future.
UNBELIEVABLE...
The king of lets ban cards because it will increase diversity in the modern format... just advocated keeping a card banned because unbanning it will lead to TOO much diversity in modern, and he cant sideboard for them all!!!?!
hypocrite much?
How is hurting Aggro diversity? Maybe you dont want any type of aggro in the format?
diversity is the number of different competing decks at the top... diversity is not always defined in terms of X aggro, Y control, and Z combo decks.
11 control decks and 2 agro decks compared to 7 control and 6 agro is the same amount of diversity - 13 different decks.
I feel all the best cards in the set should determine the diversity, not shoehorn the meta (square peg into a round whole) to shave off decks so there can be equal amounts of control-agro-combo.
]None of them play Manriki-Gusari, which costs 1 less mana to equip and whose extra ability (taking out equipment) is more relevant than what Sword of the Meek offers. Why in the world would they play Sword of the Meek if Manriki-Gusari is too weak to play?
The key difference for some of those decks is the triggered equipping to a new 1/1 coming into play. You can pitch a Sword to something like Faithless Looting or Thirst for Knowledge in a Delver of Secrets or Young Pyromancer based deck, or to Liliana of the Veil in a deck like 8rack or Faeries, and then when you play another delver or get a token from Bitterblossom or whatever, you've now got a 2/3 creature that is resistant to Electrolyze and Pyroclasm. And if it's a Delver that flips, it's now a 4/4 which is out of bolt range too (and shaves a full 2 turns off the normal delver clock). Obviously not every deck will necessarily want it, but it does present some new and possibly useful options to a few of them, while it does almost nothing for combo decks and very little for most midrange decks.
If built correctly the SotM decks will have unlimited blockers to stop, slow down aggro. Hurting aggro even more.
Assuming you can get the combo out before aggro rolls right over you, yes.
In Legacy with fast mana (Sol Lands, Chrome Mox, rituals, Monoliths, etc), good artifact tutors like Transmute Artifact and Stoneforge Mystic, a massive quantity of sheer card selection cards like Brainstorm and Ponder, and access to the actual artifact lands, I'd tend to agree with you.
In Modern, there's almost no fast mana (Mox Opal is the only legitimate accelerator and only in specific decks) and the only reliable tutors for both halves of the combo are things like Fabricate and Tezzeret the Seeker, it's going to be turn 5 or later before your combo is on line and that's devoting almost all your resources to getting it set up and in play, not stopping the aggro deck. If you stretch, you could Steelshaper's Gift for the Sword on turn 1, play it on 2, and Fabricate on turn 3 for Foundry, and play it on 4 with enough mana to make 2 tokens and gain 2 whole life. Disciple of Deceit gets both halves and is in the right colors, but won't untap until turn 3 at earliest to get 1 piece and turn 4 for the other. Either way you're not getting more than a 1 or 2 tokens until turn 5, and expending most of your mana to do so, so not hindering the aggro deck's advancement much.
Even if you have both pieces in hand in your opening 7, you're devoting turn 2 to playing once piece, turn 3 to playing the other and maybe getting 1 blocker. It's not until turn 4 that you can start churning out any reliable number of blockers. And again, this presumes you had both pieces in hand and don't miss your land drops. If you stumble on either, most aggro decks (affinity, boggles, infect, burn, even little zoo) are probably going to roll over you before you can recover.
So the only real shell for the full Thopter/Sword combo is a control deck which can afford to actual interact with aggro for a few turns, maybe wipe the board, and then go fetch the combo once it's mid to late game as a finisher. That does not seem overpowered or backbreaking to aggro any more than the existing "I lightning bolt or electrolyze your first 12 creatures with Snapcaster flashbacks!" situation.
You're also vulnerable to exactly the same hate that people side against affinity. Stony Silence and Rest in Peace affect none of the good or borderline aggro decks in the format (bar Affinity, obviously), and both completely shut off the Thopter combo. Ancient Grudge can kill the Foundry, stalling the combo. Pithing Needle and Phyrexian Revoker both also shut off the important part of Foundry without any downside at all, and are playable in every deck (and are often in sideboards as anti-pod and anti-planeswalker tech).
Honestly, I think Sword actually helps aggro in some ways (and not just in the sense that a few of them could actually use it themselves). Giving existing control decks (or enabling entirely new control decks) a way to survive mid-range's assault and move to the late game would likely improve the number and quality of control decks in the meta. In turn, aggro decks usually tend to prey on control decks but are weak to midrange decks. More decks with Foundry/Sword would be more positive aggro matchups and fewer positive matchups for midrange decks (which are negative matchups for most aggro decks).
Its already hard enough to build your main 60 and 15 side cards without adding another deck to have to side for. I am not thinking right now is the time for SotM to come off. All it will do is hurt aggro at the moment. Maybe in the future.
UNBELIEVABLE...
The king of lets ban cards because it will increase diversity in the modern format... just advocated keeping a card banned because unbanning it will lead to TOO much diversity in modern, and he cant sideboard for them all!!!?!
I don't get all the complaining about combo decks running the meta...
Combo decks were granted the meta because all the grindy control cards which could stop combo, were banned because everyone was afraid Modern would become a blue legacy lite jace meta.
Prior to all the bannings, the meta could have been very balanaced, with some zoo, fae, jace-blade, elves, burn, jund, 12 post, etc...
but people complained it was too much like legacy... and they actually wanted this tier-2 fest.
Well you made your bed... lie down in it.
The problem is, if what you say is true, we should have a competitive Zoo and Fae build because both decks have all their cards. Without the bans the format would be like 3 turn 2 decks with zero policing cards to keep them in check. There would be no aggro, no control, no mid range, no tempo... all combo..all day every day.
I didnt say the ban list should be eliminated... it should just be 8-9 cards instead of 30.
I don't get all the complaining about combo decks running the meta...
Combo decks were granted the meta because all the grindy control cards which could stop combo, were banned because everyone was afraid Modern would become a blue legacy lite jace meta.
Prior to all the bannings, the meta could have been very balanaced, with some zoo, fae, jace-blade, elves, burn, jund, 12 post, etc...
but people complained it was too much like legacy... and they actually wanted this tier-2 fest.
Even when playing valakut-titan under standard I thought the deck should have 62 cards in it. 26-27 lands was just too much to be able to consistently draw the non-land cards you needed... and yet all 26 lands were necessary for the deck to function. 66 might be on the high side, but a land based deck like titanshift, should not suffer too much for 62-4 cards for sure.
So I really like the look of this list, and am considering it for my first foray into TitanShift. I have the CrypticShift version built now, and I agree that Peer Through Depths is an all star. So I want to make room for it somewhere in the main board.
It's been a while since you posted this deck, Hype. Are you still satisfied with it? Have you made any changes and how has it been in competitive play?
The two things I'm most curious about is 1) the land count: Almost all the Titanshift decks I see run 26 lands. Have you had any difficulty with running one less land? And 2) only 2 Pyroclasm main: Have you considered a 3-3 split of Peer Through Depths and Pyrolclasm?
Anything else you would say about running Peer in a TitanShift list? Thanks!
On the surface...It seems that Peer Through Depths would be better suited in Cryptic Shift, as opposed to TitanShift, so Im curious why everyone is so high on it.
1)in titanshift, you have 8 ways to win... 4x primeval titan, 4x scapeshift.
Peer ignores 4 of those options.
2)in titanshift vs crypticshift, you have more sorcery speed items, vs instant speed items. This does not lend well to holding mana to bluff (or use) a counterspell and then Peer at their EOT, as it does in crypticshift.
additionally titanshift having less Counterspells in general it makes even less sense to bluff, when you just need to cast stuff.
3)With the sheer number of land fetch available to us... we can basically shuffle at will... I might consider something as simple as Index or Worldly Council or Mystic Speculation
Also only 2 pyroclasm, seems like not nearly enough.
I don't have a problem with the run 4 rule per-se, as even the other formats have a similar unwritten rule.
The real problem with the ban list as it stands now, is the cards on the ban list are arbitrarily done so in that they have nothing to do with that rule.
An unbanning of a certain subset of blue enabler cards, would allow more suffocating decks to arise (++ more decks in the field ++)(like the ones preferred by a large set of the player base) which would then slow the format down (++ self policing format ++) which would allow the ban list to shrink to only those cards which are extremely broken.
Are you joking? Implementing a 4 turn rule is just as much an abomination of the rules as making it illegal to cast spells on turn 1.
Draw Go is a format policing deck. FOR-MAT POL-EES-ING! if you simply unban the necessary cards to allow a draw go deck to exist, the format will police itself!
The ban list could be cut by 60%. The 4 turn rule wouldn't be necessary, because draw-go eliminates all the combo decks, that the ban list is artificially trying to prevent.
The answer to all of moderns problems is staring you in the face because everyones paranoid about the big bad suffocating draw-go deck. Draw-go ruled standard in Zendikar because the rest of the field was pathetic and weak.
If draw go existed right now, it wouldn't be suffocating. It couldn't be. Even with all the ponder/preordain/jace/mental misstep all unbanned. The rest of the field is too strong for draw-go to be suffocating. But it would provide enough balance enough to police out the combo decks you don't want.
only a fool says modern should exist without the benefit of a draw-go style deck.
if blue was allowed to play its natural support role, and efficient counterspell decks had the tools to be effective (ponder/preordain/jtms), then the format would police itself.
the thing which stops low threat density combo decks is blue control. if a decks like a modern version of cawblade or superfriends were allowed to exist, there would be no need to have a turn 4 rule, almost nothing would ever win on turn 4. all of the fast cards which have been banned because of the run 4 rule, could be unbanned, and THE POWER LEVEL of the format would virtually remain unchanged. The people who are afraid of the suffocating blue control decks are the ones who are actually unbalancing and ruining the format, and the data from the overextended ban list is there to prove it.
As long a Bocephus believes that modern should have the same power level as pauper, no one takes anything he says as serious.
Apparently not, considering they removed modern from all PT events for the coming year... SOMEONE isn't happy with modern.
diversity is the number of different competing decks at the top... diversity is not always defined in terms of X aggro, Y control, and Z combo decks.
11 control decks and 2 agro decks compared to 7 control and 6 agro is the same amount of diversity - 13 different decks.
I feel all the best cards in the set should determine the diversity, not shoehorn the meta (square peg into a round whole) to shave off decks so there can be equal amounts of control-agro-combo.
UNBELIEVABLE...
The king of lets ban cards because it will increase diversity in the modern format... just advocated keeping a card banned because unbanning it will lead to TOO much diversity in modern, and he cant sideboard for them all!!!?!
hypocrite much?
I didnt say the ban list should be eliminated... it should just be 8-9 cards instead of 30.
Combo decks were granted the meta because all the grindy control cards which could stop combo, were banned because everyone was afraid Modern would become a blue legacy lite jace meta.
Prior to all the bannings, the meta could have been very balanaced, with some zoo, fae, jace-blade, elves, burn, jund, 12 post, etc...
but people complained it was too much like legacy... and they actually wanted this tier-2 fest.
Well you made your bed... lie down in it.
On the surface...It seems that Peer Through Depths would be better suited in Cryptic Shift, as opposed to TitanShift, so Im curious why everyone is so high on it.
1)in titanshift, you have 8 ways to win... 4x primeval titan, 4x scapeshift.
Peer ignores 4 of those options.
2)in titanshift vs crypticshift, you have more sorcery speed items, vs instant speed items. This does not lend well to holding mana to bluff (or use) a counterspell and then Peer at their EOT, as it does in crypticshift.
additionally titanshift having less Counterspells in general it makes even less sense to bluff, when you just need to cast stuff.
3)With the sheer number of land fetch available to us... we can basically shuffle at will... I might consider something as simple as Index or Worldly Council or Mystic Speculation
Also only 2 pyroclasm, seems like not nearly enough.
Using a budget deck... I kinda like adding the Forbidden orchard + Searing Blaze combo.
precisely.
Scry 2.
Reveal the top card of your library.
If it is a land put it in play. If it is a creature put it in your hand.