Well what happens when they gain 9+ life on turn 2? Do we scoop to that? I don't see why the deck has to adapt to running Persecute when there is a better solution out there... And making a B splash for a card that is only good early(what good is it if you Persecute them on turn 9 after they've already gained a ****load of life??) is a BAD idea... especially if you'll also run crap like Infernal Tutor...
I'm seeing a lot of splits between Plague and Sedge Sliver, anyone like to comment on why they chose one over the other? Personaly, I would to Sedge, for regenerate and synergy when more than one on board.
The only reason I use Plague in the SB is for COP:R and Ivory Mask...
Which is the reason for at least 90% of my match losses... And I don't see how flashfires helps, as they will be playing at least 2 colors(meaning Flagstones/Painlands/Signets/Bouncelands/etc aren't touched) AND they only need 2-3 mana for COP:R every turn anyway...
I don't see the point of this discussion. A well placed trickbind can easily deal with Martyr of Sands, there's no point wasting sb slots.
Do what???
.......so, you tap out during Turn 1/2/3/4 to play some card draw... then your opponent untaps, plays a martyr, gains 9+ life and says go... You are done for. Period. Same thing will happen if you don't happen to draw the Trickbind in your opening 7. The 1 random Biorhythm will be there no matter what, ready to be cast on turn 25 or whatever... Since they have NO clock against you... They have infinite ways to deal with creatures, so you'll never get to swing with a Hellkite more than once(and that's only if you begin hardcasting them at their EOT). Trust me... Biorhythm is the ONLY decent solution to Snow White... and it only takes up ONE FREAKING SB SLOT. Big deal... Learn to improve your horrible matchups, instead of just conceding to them...
umm... go off before they set up everything?
I beat that deck first game and the next they sideboarded out a ton of lands and for the last 2 games there first opening hand was 1 land and 6 white cards one of which was sunscour/wrath and one was martyr of sands, if they gain 13+ life turn 2 and have a wrath variant you're done for and this new snow white version downright kills dragonstorm.
sudden shock is all you can do, it's insane
you can't even remand it cos it hits turn 1
Um...... have you read the last 30 or so posts?
All you have to do is cast Biorhythm. And they're dead. Super dead. Better yet, worse than super dead. They're at 0. Without a Platinum Angel in play. Or Lich.
Wrath of God and Sunscour are both sorceries, right? Right. So........ ALL you have to do is hardcast a Hellkite(with your LANDS, of course... I seriously hope you people play with lands that can produce RR). This kills any creatures they might have AT INSTANT SPEED. Then, you untap, draw your card for the turn, and sac your Lotus Bloom for GGG. Tap 6 random other lands for 6. Now cast Biorhythm. Now be ready to shuffle up for game 3 when your opponent concedes...
... I thought the cap was the scepter?:o this definitely changes everything.:mad: Everybody just wasted a full 3 page on the card. God Dang it!
Solace has a nice list, it's very streamlined.
GTX, I'd run Ignorant Bliss anytime I get Poxed.:)
Raging, your list looks like it will fail against some serious LD. but that's just an observation.
Seeing as my list is the exact same as Solace's other than 3x Sulfurous Blast and 1x Ironfoot in place of 4x Compulsive Research, how can you say there's a difference?? ALL versions of this deck(that don't MD Sacred Ground :rolleyes:) have problems with LD... I don't see how having CR would help, since you'll never get to 3 mana anyway, if your opponent has a decent draw.
And I do think that Top Deck just has an obsession with Jester's Scepter... Sure, it helps quite a bit against Tron(I have about 30 test games of proof, so you naysayers, just drop it :p), BUT it's not that great against a deck that will counter it anyway and/or never care(Dragonstorm/MUC/UWC). Jester's Cap, on the other hand, has many uses in this deck, especially since it can recur. You can RFG the win conditions of control decks, search out Dragons so they don't CitP and kill you, and even serve as a shield against decks that can only mill you to death(Martyr.dec). Just use Ruins to recur it over and over again, and you'll never need to draw again...
ALL you have to do is have a Bloom in play and go EOT Hellkite and Biorhythm ftw... and if this isn't good enough for you people, run 1 Terrarion in the SB as well... I don't think it's too unreasonable to dedicate 2 SB slots to an otherwise-unwinnable matchup.
I don't see why Jester's Cap isn't fast enough in Solace's version, as it comes down on turn 3 and is activated even BEFORE the Dragonstorm player is able to resolve their suspended Lotus Bloom... 7 2-cost accelerators help a lot in the Turn-3 Cap auto-win(or near auto-win, as you still have to deal with maybe 2 "EOT Hellkite + Attack" scenarios). Here's what I would try(though it makes Sheets a wee bit weaker :mad:):
SB Functions:
4 Defense Grid - UW/MUC/UG Aggro
4 Jester's Cap - Dragonstorm/MUC/UWC
3 Tormod's Crypt - Martyr.dec/Flare/Reanimator
3 Millstone - MUC/UWC/Martyr.dec
1 Academy Ruins - More consistancy against U/x Control and Black decks
EDIT: Er... actually 2x Demonfire would be infinitely better against U control... Maybe in place of 1 Millstone and 1 Ruins.
About the total of 15 burn spells and 4 Stuffies vs 20 counterspells: I'd just like to say, when I said that my MUC deck runs ~20 counterspells, it's actually a pretty low number for MUC... see, it also runs 4 Scrying Sheets, 4 Whispers of the Muse, and 4 Ancestral Vision. So, there's a bit of a chance I'll come across counterspells faster than you come across threats... and besides, I still have more counterspells than you have threats, with Psionic Blasts leftover to make the Phoenix go away for that one turn.
You will further never be able to resolve a Stuffy doll, so the 'use arena on Rimefeather Owl and Stuffy Doll' plan won't work. You could double Skred it to kill it (possibly having to also throw a third burn spell at it)... if I didn't counter one of the Skreds, of course, and if you had two in your hand. Though, even if that worked, you'd be way down on burn spells to actually finish me off, and I'd still have another Owl in my deck, alongside three Draining Whelks, four Phyrexian Ironfoots, Urza's Factory, and Academy Ruins to make the Ironfoots equally as recursive as Shard Phoenix... but bigger. Play a pair of recursive Ironfoots, and you can only kill one at a time with the Pheonix... no way you've got 16 mana to recur two at once. And, after game one, I can side in some Crypts to get rid of the Phoenix once and for all, if it really gave me that much trouble.
Like Palias said, this deck just don't have a good matchup against any control deck, except possibly one that's geared wholly toward aggro. It will even have trouble with aggro containing pro:red critters, and honestly, a number of U/G builds, like goldnetx tried, will beat it too. Adding in Academy Ruins might help the matchups a bit, because at least you're not helpless when you run out of Stuffy Dolls to play, but even then, it's just too slow and resource consuming to beat most control decks; and you will never, ever, beat mono-white with a burn plan while Myrtr of Sands is in standard.
Ok... here we go. 4 Whispers, 4 Ancestral Visions, 3 Draining Whelk, 2 Owls, 16 Counterspells, 4 Phyrexian Ironfoot, 4 Psionic Blast... Thats what, 37? You DO have room for lands in your deck, don't you??? And oh wait, you DONT have bounce in the deck. So, if Stuffy resolves, it's 100% game over. Anyway, while I do believe it's possible you have all these cards in your deck, there is NO WAY you would be able to draw them nearly as often as you mention. All this business about countering all of Stuffy's spells, and somehow you're going to tap 6 mana on your endstep for a Whispers??? By the way, the endstep is where you're going to take most of your damage, especially if you depend on cards such as Whispers for your card advantage...
And hold on a minute, how many hard-counters do you run? Lets see, there's Rewind, Cancel, Spell Snare, and oh wait, that's IT(Draining Whelk doesn't count because it will only reliably win an endstep spell war on turns 12+). And you don't even run Rewind, so you're relying on 4 Cancel and 4 Spell Snare(which by the way, only counters accel in this matchup, which is much of a waste). Mana Leak, Rune Snag, and Remand will NEVER counter an important spell against this deck, IF a competant player is playing it. Pay 3 or 2/4/6/8 more for my Lightning Axe or Madnessed Fiery Temper or Skred or *free* Rift Bolt or Seal of Fire?????? SURE.
So... 4 Cancel + ~3 Draining Whelk + 12 Conditional Counters vs. 4 Stuffy Doll + 25 burn spells + 4 Ironfoots. Not wanting to be the MUC player in this matchup...
Not trying to call your arguments moot, but you just come off as "Oh, that jank crap will never beat my deck... it's just too good to lose to a list like that." I mean, you haven't conceded a single friggin thing to Stuffy, making it seem as though Top Deck is entering in Vintage tournaments with 4-color Wake or something...
Seriously, run Biorhythm. With just one EOT Hellkite, it wins the game automatically.
I'd have to agree with you on this one... but beware they might have a way to kill your dragon so that it becomes a draw... Which actually makes Biorhythm a better option, since you won't have to board out your Gigas...
I've stopped my testing within the past two weeks, so sorry to say I have nothing new to contribute until I put this back together... But the main thing I have against COP:Red and Flare/Pox is Stromgald Crusader/Plague Sliver/Demonfire/RiseFall... sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't... but i've at least got it to the point that I don't auto-lose to COP: Red and Ivory Mask/Worship...
Ummm....Persecute much? What about Akroma? CoP: Red? Not to mention any countermagic you might run into. Yeah....WTF?
Shard Phoenix/Sheets is most definately enough to recover from a Persecute... and since all the spells in this deck cost R or are colorless, you'll easily get to use most of your spells before Persecute matters... Now, Akroma, on the other hand, can pose a problem. But, ONLY if she hits on turns 4-5... otherwise this deck will just outrace her. direct damage + Skred/Axe/Temper/Bolt on Stuffy = faster than Akroma. And don't get me started on how easily this deck rapes anyone trying to use COP:Red... Stuffy Doll most definately is NOT red, Genius...
How does dstorm beat blue based control if they are holding a rewind? Gigadrowse isn't so hot then. I play the tron version cus the option of demonfire for 20 vs blue is just too fun. And its not actually that much slower. Also the tron version stands a chance vs Mono-White Tron while non tron versions need the god draw.
That's exactly the reason you have Dizzy Spell(and usually Grozoth #2) in the SB... you effectively have more Giga's than they do rewinds, so all you have to do is run them out of Rewinds, and the turn is yours... And that's another reason you have Mana Leaks in the board also. Switch them in for your Remands for G2/G3, and they won't know what hit them...
I entered and and came second in a trial on M-L. I lost in the finals to Worship + Soltari Priest + Not drawing repeal. Twice. Along te way I faced almost only control In the form of UW, mana ramp and even MWT. The deck is fast enuf to beat aggro, and resilient enuf to beat control.
That's exactly why you combo off BEFORE they have the chance to drop a Worship against you with some Pro-Red guy in play... If you can't Remand/Leak(post-SB obviously) their Worship and go off by turn 5ish, then you deserve to lose anyway... And on that note, if you're playing UR Tron and you let them resolve a Worship and you DONT have a repeal in hand, you're either a really bad player, or you had a ****ty draw... Dont bank on losing like that too often, it just doesn't happen as much as you seem to think.
I agree with everything, everyone said. Burn decks just don't make the cut. I can easily come up with a turn 3 lock down for your deck.
Wha-huh?? Please do explain...
I find it funny that a few of you say that Tier 1 decks run over this deck, yet you have *no* analysis or any kind of testing... I mean, seriously... How hard is it to analyze the matchup of a random rogue deck against Tier-1 decks(BTW, there are about 10 of them :p)?
1) This whole "The STRONGEST deck in type 2 right now and the fore sure world champion deck" thing was a ****ing joke... and those of you who couldn't see it, shame on you for flaming him... It's Top Deck's way of saying "I think this is a good deck, but I want attention drawn to it so I can make it much better."
2) I am the guy that Top Deck has been playtesting this deck against for the past 2 weeks on a near daily basis... I have(or have had) RBW Firemane, RGW Zoo, RW Boros, UR Tron, GWu Blink, UW Control, and Solar Flare built... And the ONLY one of those decks that has a favorable matchup vs. "Stuffy.dec" is UR Tron(as TD mentioned). If all you flamers would try the deck out before you dismissed it, you'd see that it's not as horrible as you might think.
3) I have not played against a SINGLE *competitive* deck in this T2 format(in about a couple thousand games) that plays Worship, Darkblast, Sudden Death, OR Cruel Edict... the only card you people have mentioned that this deck sometimes loses to is Smallpox... and seriously, how the hell does Solar Pox "stomp" this deck??? You have about 6-7 turns to live... which means Haakon recursion is irrelevant, and the only way you can kill is with a turn 4 Akroma. Oh wait... you only run 1 of them? Well, i guess the Stuffy Doll player can chumpblock with Shard Phoenix all day long.
4) I am in no way responsible for anything Top Deck says about "This deck winning worlds" or "Beating all the Tier 1 decks 100%" or all that bull****... And at the moment i'm kinda embarrased to be his testing partner... BUT, I'm just trying to get you guys to try the deck out before you write it off as jank...
EDIT: The reason this deck beats U/x Control is Scrying Sheets + Shard Phoenix... and the fact that it has 4 uncounterable removal spells in the form of Mouth. Short of a Turn 2 and Turn 3 Soltari Priest/Paladin En-Vec, this deck stomps aggro for much of the same reason(it's the very reason I tore up my Zoo deck and built Boros instead... I kept losing to InfiniteRemoval.dec). It has nearly infinite spot removal/burn spells, so the fort is always upright until Stuffy Doll/Phoenix/Ironfoot come online.
I'm so close to siging that last part. In my first incarnations of rakdos aggro, I ran hit/run, rise/fall, and a whole compliment of removal and burn, and I drew hit off bob exclusivly it seemed. Ofcourse your not gonna take edict out, it is an awsome card, and no we don't have a favorable match up and no it is not a fair trade. My eight life for your signet which will be used to remand, mana leak, or rune snag it is far from an even trade.
If you use it, and it works, then awsome. If you use it and you die from it, it sucks. Point I'm makeing is it is not for every deck and if you use it don't think it is a good substitute for cards you should already be useing.
Well, lets let testing show that i've won over 60% of my test matches against Solar Flare, and I've lost about 3 games out of a few hundred(that's less than 1%) due to flipping Hit/Run with Bob... that's all I got. I can tell you that in testing it's great, and that it improves the deck a LOT, but if your experiences with the card are as bad as it seems, then I guess you just shouldn't run the card...
The only reason I use Plague in the SB is for COP:R and Ivory Mask...
Which is the reason for at least 90% of my match losses... And I don't see how flashfires helps, as they will be playing at least 2 colors(meaning Flagstones/Painlands/Signets/Bouncelands/etc aren't touched) AND they only need 2-3 mana for COP:R every turn anyway...
Do what???
.......so, you tap out during Turn 1/2/3/4 to play some card draw... then your opponent untaps, plays a martyr, gains 9+ life and says go... You are done for. Period. Same thing will happen if you don't happen to draw the Trickbind in your opening 7. The 1 random Biorhythm will be there no matter what, ready to be cast on turn 25 or whatever... Since they have NO clock against you... They have infinite ways to deal with creatures, so you'll never get to swing with a Hellkite more than once(and that's only if you begin hardcasting them at their EOT). Trust me... Biorhythm is the ONLY decent solution to Snow White... and it only takes up ONE FREAKING SB SLOT. Big deal... Learn to improve your horrible matchups, instead of just conceding to them...
Um...... have you read the last 30 or so posts?
All you have to do is cast Biorhythm. And they're dead. Super dead. Better yet, worse than super dead. They're at 0. Without a Platinum Angel in play. Or Lich.
Wrath of God and Sunscour are both sorceries, right? Right. So........ ALL you have to do is hardcast a Hellkite(with your LANDS, of course... I seriously hope you people play with lands that can produce RR). This kills any creatures they might have AT INSTANT SPEED. Then, you untap, draw your card for the turn, and sac your Lotus Bloom for GGG. Tap 6 random other lands for 6. Now cast Biorhythm. Now be ready to shuffle up for game 3 when your opponent concedes...
Seeing as my list is the exact same as Solace's other than 3x Sulfurous Blast and 1x Ironfoot in place of 4x Compulsive Research, how can you say there's a difference?? ALL versions of this deck(that don't MD Sacred Ground :rolleyes:) have problems with LD... I don't see how having CR would help, since you'll never get to 3 mana anyway, if your opponent has a decent draw.
And I do think that Top Deck just has an obsession with Jester's Scepter...
I don't see why Jester's Cap isn't fast enough in Solace's version, as it comes down on turn 3 and is activated even BEFORE the Dragonstorm player is able to resolve their suspended Lotus Bloom... 7 2-cost accelerators help a lot in the Turn-3 Cap auto-win(or near auto-win, as you still have to deal with maybe 2 "EOT Hellkite + Attack" scenarios). Here's what I would try(though it makes Sheets a wee bit weaker :mad:):
10 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Scrying Sheets
4 Mouth of Ronom
2 Snow-Covered Island
2 Academy Ruins
Creatures(12):
4 Stuffy Doll
4 Phyrexian Ironfoot
4 Shard Phoenix
4 Coldsteel Heart
4 Skred
4 Lightning Axe
4 Fiery Temper
4 Rift Bolt
3 Izzet Signet
3 Sulfurous Blast
4 Defense Grid
4 Jester's Cap
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Millstone
1 Academy Ruins
SB Functions:
4 Defense Grid - UW/MUC/UG Aggro
4 Jester's Cap - Dragonstorm/MUC/UWC
3 Tormod's Crypt - Martyr.dec/Flare/Reanimator
3 Millstone - MUC/UWC/Martyr.dec
1 Academy Ruins - More consistancy against U/x Control and Black decks
EDIT: Er... actually 2x Demonfire would be infinitely better against U control... Maybe in place of 1 Millstone and 1 Ruins.
Ok... here we go. 4 Whispers, 4 Ancestral Visions, 3 Draining Whelk, 2 Owls, 16 Counterspells, 4 Phyrexian Ironfoot, 4 Psionic Blast... Thats what, 37? You DO have room for lands in your deck, don't you??? And oh wait, you DONT have bounce in the deck. So, if Stuffy resolves, it's 100% game over. Anyway, while I do believe it's possible you have all these cards in your deck, there is NO WAY you would be able to draw them nearly as often as you mention. All this business about countering all of Stuffy's spells, and somehow you're going to tap 6 mana on your endstep for a Whispers??? By the way, the endstep is where you're going to take most of your damage, especially if you depend on cards such as Whispers for your card advantage...
And hold on a minute, how many hard-counters do you run? Lets see, there's Rewind, Cancel, Spell Snare, and oh wait, that's IT(Draining Whelk doesn't count because it will only reliably win an endstep spell war on turns 12+). And you don't even run Rewind, so you're relying on 4 Cancel and 4 Spell Snare(which by the way, only counters accel in this matchup, which is much of a waste). Mana Leak, Rune Snag, and Remand will NEVER counter an important spell against this deck, IF a competant player is playing it. Pay 3 or 2/4/6/8 more for my Lightning Axe or Madnessed Fiery Temper or Skred or *free* Rift Bolt or Seal of Fire?????? SURE.
So... 4 Cancel + ~3 Draining Whelk + 12 Conditional Counters vs. 4 Stuffy Doll + 25 burn spells + 4 Ironfoots. Not wanting to be the MUC player in this matchup...
Not trying to call your arguments moot, but you just come off as "Oh, that jank crap will never beat my deck... it's just too good to lose to a list like that." I mean, you haven't conceded a single friggin thing to Stuffy, making it seem as though Top Deck is entering in Vintage tournaments with 4-color Wake or something...
I'd have to agree with you on this one... but beware they might have a way to kill your dragon so that it becomes a draw... Which actually makes Biorhythm a better option, since you won't have to board out your Gigas...
5 Mountain
4 Swamp
4 Blood Crypt
4 Sulfurous Springs
3 Rakdos Carnarium
1 Rix Maadi, Dungeon Palace
Creatures(12):
4 Dark Confidant
4 Rakdos Guildmage
4 Giant Solifuge
4 Seal of Fire
4 Rift Bolt
4 Volcanic hammer
4 Char
4 Cruel Edict
4 Hit // Run
3 Demonfire
4 Rise/Fall
4 Stromgald Crusader
3 Deathmark
3 Plague Sliver
1 Demonfire
I've stopped my testing within the past two weeks, so sorry to say I have nothing new to contribute until I put this back together... But the main thing I have against COP:Red and Flare/Pox is Stromgald Crusader/Plague Sliver/Demonfire/RiseFall... sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't... but i've at least got it to the point that I don't auto-lose to COP: Red and Ivory Mask/Worship...
Shard Phoenix/Sheets is most definately enough to recover from a Persecute... and since all the spells in this deck cost R or are colorless, you'll easily get to use most of your spells before Persecute matters... Now, Akroma, on the other hand, can pose a problem. But, ONLY if she hits on turns 4-5... otherwise this deck will just outrace her. direct damage + Skred/Axe/Temper/Bolt on Stuffy = faster than Akroma. And don't get me started on how easily this deck rapes anyone trying to use COP:Red... Stuffy Doll most definately is NOT red, Genius...
That's exactly the reason you have Dizzy Spell(and usually Grozoth #2) in the SB... you effectively have more Giga's than they do rewinds, so all you have to do is run them out of Rewinds, and the turn is yours... And that's another reason you have Mana Leaks in the board also. Switch them in for your Remands for G2/G3, and they won't know what hit them...
That's exactly why you combo off BEFORE they have the chance to drop a Worship against you with some Pro-Red guy in play... If you can't Remand/Leak(post-SB obviously) their Worship and go off by turn 5ish, then you deserve to lose anyway... And on that note, if you're playing UR Tron and you let them resolve a Worship and you DONT have a repeal in hand, you're either a really bad player, or you had a ****ty draw... Dont bank on losing like that too often, it just doesn't happen as much as you seem to think.
Wha-huh?? Please do explain...
I find it funny that a few of you say that Tier 1 decks run over this deck, yet you have *no* analysis or any kind of testing... I mean, seriously... How hard is it to analyze the matchup of a random rogue deck against Tier-1 decks(BTW, there are about 10 of them :p)?
1) This whole "The STRONGEST deck in type 2 right now and the fore sure world champion deck" thing was a ****ing joke... and those of you who couldn't see it, shame on you for flaming him... It's Top Deck's way of saying "I think this is a good deck, but I want attention drawn to it so I can make it much better."
2) I am the guy that Top Deck has been playtesting this deck against for the past 2 weeks on a near daily basis... I have(or have had) RBW Firemane, RGW Zoo, RW Boros, UR Tron, GWu Blink, UW Control, and Solar Flare built... And the ONLY one of those decks that has a favorable matchup vs. "Stuffy.dec" is UR Tron(as TD mentioned). If all you flamers would try the deck out before you dismissed it, you'd see that it's not as horrible as you might think.
3) I have not played against a SINGLE *competitive* deck in this T2 format(in about a couple thousand games) that plays Worship, Darkblast, Sudden Death, OR Cruel Edict... the only card you people have mentioned that this deck sometimes loses to is Smallpox... and seriously, how the hell does Solar Pox "stomp" this deck??? You have about 6-7 turns to live... which means Haakon recursion is irrelevant, and the only way you can kill is with a turn 4 Akroma. Oh wait... you only run 1 of them? Well, i guess the Stuffy Doll player can chumpblock with Shard Phoenix all day long.
4) I am in no way responsible for anything Top Deck says about "This deck winning worlds" or "Beating all the Tier 1 decks 100%" or all that bull****... And at the moment i'm kinda embarrased to be his testing partner...
EDIT: The reason this deck beats U/x Control is Scrying Sheets + Shard Phoenix... and the fact that it has 4 uncounterable removal spells in the form of Mouth. Short of a Turn 2 and Turn 3 Soltari Priest/Paladin En-Vec, this deck stomps aggro for much of the same reason(it's the very reason I tore up my Zoo deck and built Boros instead... I kept losing to InfiniteRemoval.dec). It has nearly infinite spot removal/burn spells, so the fort is always upright until Stuffy Doll/Phoenix/Ironfoot come online.
Well, lets let testing show that i've won over 60% of my test matches against Solar Flare, and I've lost about 3 games out of a few hundred(that's less than 1%) due to flipping Hit/Run with Bob... that's all I got. I can tell you that in testing it's great, and that it improves the deck a LOT, but if your experiences with the card are as bad as it seems, then I guess you just shouldn't run the card...