I'm sorry for noticing, but isn't there a 6-card first-turn win combo?
2 Blazing Shoal, Spark Elemental, 2 Furnace Drag/Myojin, Mountain
I would rather go for the 1st turn win with 6 certain cards than just a turn-4 tooth.
ButteBlues18: I have been testing your build on MWS for about 2 hours now and I have only toothed on the 4th turn 5 times(In 6 matches, around 14 games). I try doing what everyone says is "Tried and true" but it just doesn't work out for me. Maybe I should go buy a rabbits foot or something...... sigh....
The 4 you pay to cast Solemn should instead go towards a Reap and Sow, or Sylvan Scrying depending on your initial draw. That is the play with 4 mana available, not the Solemn. He's not useless, but he is not optimal for this deck either. Sakura Tribe Elder speeds up your land just the same, and can come out on turn 2.
I don't understand you people........ You say that 4 mana should go to sylvan scrying or reap and sow. I personally would play scrying on turn 2, not turn 4. And if my hand consists of reap and solemn, I most definately would play reap. But -- this might come as a surprise -- I DONT ALWAYS DRAW IT, so there has to be some other way for me to get land, especially when 1/2 the land in the deck produces colorless mana. And what color does solemn need?
I think you all are just used to drawing perfect hands every time, and that is most certainly never the case for me. Maybe I need to start imagining that. Then we could agree on something!!
Quote from ButteBlues18 »
Yeah, see, you have problems with not being able to topdeck your beaters because yuo've been siphoning their spots off to horrible choices like Oblivion Stone. I hate to be harsh, but really, you can't beat what is tested and true.
I was referencing YOUR beaters. I have a backup plan in rude awakening, but all everyone else has is platinum angel and mindslaver(not always a gamewinner).
One of the reasons for running ONLY 2 rude awakening is if you do not piece together your full urzatron you can tooth with only 7 mana available. And it is a backup win condition for decks that would decide to extract your tooth-- instead of trying to randomly topdeck a platinum angel.
Sad Robot doesn't belong in this deck. It's that simple... If you are truly going for a turn 4 Tooth and Nail, you'll never even cast him. He's quite useless in fact.
This deck is not designed to go off on turn 4. You have to have 6 certain cards(TAN, mana accel, 2 pieces of urza, sylvan scrying or reap and sow, and a forest) to do so, and I can never ever reliably have them all by turn 4. I don't know how the hell you people do this so often(someone suggested 80%). And solemn is USELESS?!?!?!?! Please explain to me how tutoring for a basic land, chumpblocking a 12/1 frogmite, and drawing an extra card all for 4 colorless mana is useless.
Quote from ButteBlues18 »
Oblivion Stone is... crap. Against everything. The format is lightning-speed where wins are often determined on turn 4 or 5, and Oblivion Stone comes out on Turn 3, and only becomes useable on turn 4 with acceleration. The card is a waste of time against Ravager, and really, that's the only deck people see as a reason for adding the card, strange as it is.
I dont see how you can call ravager an auto-win against this deck. I have 15 castable creatures with cc 4 or less, and most of them give me card advantage against affinity anyways. The o-stones are there to clean up the mess after i'm done taking 12 damage and haven't drawn my T&N yet(which happens more than to anyone else, i assure).
What's wrong with running rude awakening? I didnt know it was that bad of a card.........
Quote from ButteBlues18 »
We've been over Cranial Extraction, so that needs to go. Crucible is crap, just like RG LD, so that can go. Finally, Plow Under is too little, too late in the mirror match, so that can go.
The only reason I run crucible in SB is because L/D is the only deck I consistently lose to. And last time I remember, extracting a T&N on turn 3 or 4 is not that bad. Do you have reccomendations for a SB?
I'd have to agree with Choko about the uselessness of the tops in this deck. I personally would run 2 rude awakening in place of the SDT's. I know you have many ways to reshuffle your deck, but i would rather top-deck a rude awakening late in a game than just have the ability to filter through 2 of my cards.
I don't see how the wayfarer's baubles fit this deck. You already have scrying, reap and sow, and STE. And if you somehow find yourself with only urzatron and need one green mana to cast things, then you are probably in big trouble already.
Btw, there is no such thing as o-stones being "out of place" in a control deck. I think you should run 3-4 of them as they improve your matchups against many decks.
Also, I know sakura-tribe elder is a great card and all, but I just have to use vine trellis. If you are going to sideboard in sacred ground or cranial extraction(which I do, but I also have solemn support) and their land bypart then that's a different story. But, if all you will ever need is green mana, I think trellis is a better deal. The only thing that makes it worse than STE is when it blocks a plated creature.
Here is my build, if anyone cares:
3 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
10 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
To all of you that still think U/W is horrible now:
I didn't mean to make you think it is a tier-1 deck, because it isn't. NO ONE PLAYS IT!!! If no one played affinity, how many top-8's would it have? Very few, if any. I am not saying the two decks are easily comparable, but the lack of competitive U/W decks has been because of it's decrease in popularity. There has been much discussion about U/W's demise while whining "we lost vengeance, decree and eternal dragon, so let's just stop trying." I would like to see more people realize that some decks are not dead, just changing. And doesn't CHK have a hardcounter of some sort? Oh nvm, it's probably not playable anyway...... Also, running shackles in blue/white is stupid? Hmmm... i don't understand that one, somebody please explain.
And last I remember, March is very, very, very good against affinity, especially if it's in the same deck as ***(A 2-card 'destroy all artifacts and creatures' combination, if i am not mistaken).
As for the new metagame, as i said before, in competitive magic Affinity will still be at the top so long as people are only playing 6 types of decks. If we all try out new ideas(dam net-deckers), maybe some type of new deck could arise(U/B ninjas, for instance) that will give affinity a challenge.
I think tooth and nail will be unexpectedly good post-BoK because of affinity's dominance. No deck will have room to MD sowing salt or eradicate because of it's suckiness against affinity. I don't think it gains very much from BoK, but it should get better as a result of changes in other decks.
Magemoth: It really pisses me off that WotC "reprinted" shatterstorm in the form of granulate. Hmmmm.... lets destroy arcbound worker, frogmite, and ravager and let you just slide those +1/+1 counters over to your 4/4, Ahem I mean 16/16, myr enforcer....... AND IT DOESN'T EVEN TOUCH LANDS!!!!! ARGH :mad1:
it might also be possible that a U W control deck rises up again, but i am not yet sure of it.
Huh?!? Whatever happened to U/W control? The only thing I think it lost was eternal dragon. It beats ravager(good builds, at least), T&N, and most other control decks. Didnt someone mention how there is only a single tier-1 beatdown deck and the rest are control? Boseiju does't have **** against my U/W deck.
Ponza as a top contender? I don't think so. Maybe in some of the non-affinity metagames out there(like mine), but not nearly competitive enough to beat Tooth, ravager, G/B, etc.
Hey FrozenMage: U/R March should be very good once BoK is legal. This might be the fitting deck for the new 'Penumbra' land in BoK. March is also still very good because of the continuing domination of Affinity. I hope this deck sees the light of day again. I really miss starstorm:(........
WW has been a good tier-2 deck since CHK was released, but it dearly misses 'geddon. That card could tear apart G/B and tooth..... I don't think WW will improve as much as people are speculating, but it should get little better.
I think affinity will still dominate the tournament scene, at least in the beginning. Tooth will still be good, as will G/B Cloud and U/G. If only WotC could reprint rebuild:)........ That would make so many different decks equally competitive.
Mindslaver is used because frankly, there is no other choice in this deck that is decent, let alone this card. Mindslaver just happens to actually matter occasionally.
Have you tried Oblivion Stones? It seems to me that they have gone out of fashion for tooth players. The original idea was to tooth for double colossus and blow a stone to smash for 22, but there is so much disruption being played now(barter, echoing truth, etc.) that it hardly ever works. I still think that tooth decks should run at least 3 stones because of it's effectiveness against affinity and other beatdown decks. But, unlike most tooth players now, I still play Jens and I almost always end up drawing a card or two when blowing a stone. If you are trying to find a replacement for mindslaver, I would just throw in a couple of stones and/or rude awakenings(which also enable you to entwine a tooth with only 7 mana available). Then again, it might just be more consistent for your deck to just leave the slavers in. I don't know, just a suggestion......
You could also try the 3-Trike build, they seem to help in getting rid of those darn disciples and can still be a beatdown at the same time......
Goblinmedics: I see your point about eradicate being good against colossus in T&N, but it still doesn't get around Titan's triggered ability("When Sundering Titan leaves play..."). I wish there was a way to get around that ability...
I remember the time when the metagame in my area was the most competitive. People used to play elves and goblins:xd: and whatnot before CHK arrived, and Affinity definately dominated back then....
Since the release of Champions, the metagame in my area has changed from nearly 50% affinity to about 10-15% because people now realize how many decks there are that can beat affinity and that are actually FUN TO PLAY WITH(not to mention, affordable). There are still the usual affinity players around here but I am very happy to say that it isn't 50% anymore. I actually have to worry more about Monoblue and B/G Control than Affinity, but my T&N deck is still built to beat it.........
Edit: BTW, if you'd like to see my decklist, Click Here
Against Affinity and UG Control, Angel/Abunas is the only realistic way we can hold them at bay.
I disagree. First of all, in an area with a balanced metagame (all archetypes well-represented and no 50% affinity) U/G Control and Affinity will make up maybe 20% of the field. The angle/abunas combo is only good against these two decks(maybe ponza or R/G L/D, as their burn shouldnt be adequate enough to take on a 5-toughness creature), and they still have a way to deal with it. The Affinity player might be running shrapnel blast, but otherwise -- you're right -- it should be game over. Against U/x control, the other player will most likely notice that you are playing T&N and hold their echoing truths off until you cast tooth, and even then you have an advantage right? Not always, *cough* vedalken shackles *cough*. I would hate to waste my first 5 or 6 turns to get angel/abunas in play and then see them echoing truth my abunas and steal my angel........:evil:
I have been playing T&N variants ever since the skullclamp craze(April 2004, in my area). I have been using Urzatron ever since i started playing the deck and the mana base has been amazing. I could not imagine anyone playing the untutorable Vernal Bloom ESPECIALLY after the banning of skullclamp. I have even tried playing G/R Urzatron(w/ wooded foothills and pyroclasm) and won 3 FNMs with it. I was one of the very few people who played non-Bloom T&N in a balanced metagame(affinity, ww, ponza, KCI, U/W control, B/G control, and monoblack were all well-represented) and the deck had very reasonable matchups against almost every archetype. Through all of my testing throughout Fifth dawn and CHK I see no reason whatsoever to run Vernal Bloom.
I have one question: Why do most people run 6-8 tutorable fatties in addition to rude awakening(or Mindslaver, or other alt. win conditions)?
I have found in testing that I have lost less than 5% of games where i have Toothed for kiki and titan/colossus. The only time this ever happens is when a B/G player still has enough land to barter. With my recent CHK build, i have only lost 3 games in testing after having cast T&N. Can someone please explain to me why T&N nowadays(no more Rorix/Akroma) goes for "I tooth for Abunas and Platinum Angel and wait for you to concede" approach instead of the "I have a Hasty Indestructible 11/11 monster heading toward you" approach. I dont play any Platinum Angels because i just think it's stupid to sit and wait for your opponent to draw his/her 2nd shrapnel blast. I would rather try to actually WIN the game rather than earn a concession. If you want a concession just tooth for white/black bringers with one mindslaver in your deck... seems easier to me... please somebody explain.....
Oh how I miss Astral Slide......... sigh...............
2 Blazing Shoal, Spark Elemental, 2 Furnace Drag/Myojin, Mountain
I would rather go for the 1st turn win with 6 certain cards than just a turn-4 tooth.
ButteBlues18: I have been testing your build on MWS for about 2 hours now and I have only toothed on the 4th turn 5 times(In 6 matches, around 14 games). I try doing what everyone says is "Tried and true" but it just doesn't work out for me. Maybe I should go buy a rabbits foot or something...... sigh....
I don't understand you people........ You say that 4 mana should go to sylvan scrying or reap and sow. I personally would play scrying on turn 2, not turn 4. And if my hand consists of reap and solemn, I most definately would play reap. But -- this might come as a surprise -- I DONT ALWAYS DRAW IT, so there has to be some other way for me to get land, especially when 1/2 the land in the deck produces colorless mana. And what color does solemn need?
I think you all are just used to drawing perfect hands every time, and that is most certainly never the case for me. Maybe I need to start imagining that. Then we could agree on something!!
I was referencing YOUR beaters. I have a backup plan in rude awakening, but all everyone else has is platinum angel and mindslaver(not always a gamewinner).
This deck is not designed to go off on turn 4. You have to have 6 certain cards(TAN, mana accel, 2 pieces of urza, sylvan scrying or reap and sow, and a forest) to do so, and I can never ever reliably have them all by turn 4. I don't know how the hell you people do this so often(someone suggested 80%). And solemn is USELESS?!?!?!?! Please explain to me how tutoring for a basic land, chumpblocking a 12/1 frogmite, and drawing an extra card all for 4 colorless mana is useless.
I dont see how you can call ravager an auto-win against this deck. I have 15 castable creatures with cc 4 or less, and most of them give me card advantage against affinity anyways. The o-stones are there to clean up the mess after i'm done taking 12 damage and haven't drawn my T&N yet(which happens more than to anyone else, i assure).
What's wrong with running rude awakening? I didnt know it was that bad of a card.........
The only reason I run crucible in SB is because L/D is the only deck I consistently lose to. And last time I remember, extracting a T&N on turn 3 or 4 is not that bad. Do you have reccomendations for a SB?
I don't see how the wayfarer's baubles fit this deck. You already have scrying, reap and sow, and STE. And if you somehow find yourself with only urzatron and need one green mana to cast things, then you are probably in big trouble already.
Btw, there is no such thing as o-stones being "out of place" in a control deck. I think you should run 3-4 of them as they improve your matchups against many decks.
Also, I know sakura-tribe elder is a great card and all, but I just have to use vine trellis. If you are going to sideboard in sacred ground or cranial extraction(which I do, but I also have solemn support) and their land bypart then that's a different story. But, if all you will ever need is green mana, I think trellis is a better deal. The only thing that makes it worse than STE is when it blocks a plated creature.
Here is my build, if anyone cares:
3 Urza's Mine
4 Urza's Power Plant
4 Urza's Tower
10 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
4 Solemn Simulacrum
4 Viridian Shaman
4 Eternal Witness
3 Vine Trellis
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Duplicant
4 Tooth and Nail
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Reap and Sow
4 Oblivion Stone
2 Rude Awakening
Sideboard:
4 Cranial Extraction(G/B and mirror)
4 Relic Barrier(affinity)
3 Crucible of Worlds(L/D obviously)
4 Plow Under(for mirror)
I didn't mean to make you think it is a tier-1 deck, because it isn't. NO ONE PLAYS IT!!! If no one played affinity, how many top-8's would it have? Very few, if any. I am not saying the two decks are easily comparable, but the lack of competitive U/W decks has been because of it's decrease in popularity. There has been much discussion about U/W's demise while whining "we lost vengeance, decree and eternal dragon, so let's just stop trying." I would like to see more people realize that some decks are not dead, just changing. And doesn't CHK have a hardcounter of some sort? Oh nvm, it's probably not playable anyway...... Also, running shackles in blue/white is stupid? Hmmm... i don't understand that one, somebody please explain.
And last I remember, March is very, very, very good against affinity, especially if it's in the same deck as ***(A 2-card 'destroy all artifacts and creatures' combination, if i am not mistaken).
As for the new metagame, as i said before, in competitive magic Affinity will still be at the top so long as people are only playing 6 types of decks. If we all try out new ideas(dam net-deckers), maybe some type of new deck could arise(U/B ninjas, for instance) that will give affinity a challenge.
I think tooth and nail will be unexpectedly good post-BoK because of affinity's dominance. No deck will have room to MD sowing salt or eradicate because of it's suckiness against affinity. I don't think it gains very much from BoK, but it should get better as a result of changes in other decks.
Magemoth: It really pisses me off that WotC "reprinted" shatterstorm in the form of granulate. Hmmmm.... lets destroy arcbound worker, frogmite, and ravager and let you just slide those +1/+1 counters over to your 4/4, Ahem I mean 16/16, myr enforcer....... AND IT DOESN'T EVEN TOUCH LANDS!!!!! ARGH :mad1:
Huh?!? Whatever happened to U/W control? The only thing I think it lost was eternal dragon. It beats ravager(good builds, at least), T&N, and most other control decks. Didnt someone mention how there is only a single tier-1 beatdown deck and the rest are control? Boseiju does't have **** against my U/W deck.
Ponza as a top contender? I don't think so. Maybe in some of the non-affinity metagames out there(like mine), but not nearly competitive enough to beat Tooth, ravager, G/B, etc.
Hey FrozenMage: U/R March should be very good once BoK is legal. This might be the fitting deck for the new 'Penumbra' land in BoK. March is also still very good because of the continuing domination of Affinity. I hope this deck sees the light of day again. I really miss starstorm:(........
WW has been a good tier-2 deck since CHK was released, but it dearly misses 'geddon. That card could tear apart G/B and tooth..... I don't think WW will improve as much as people are speculating, but it should get little better.
I think affinity will still dominate the tournament scene, at least in the beginning. Tooth will still be good, as will G/B Cloud and U/G. If only WotC could reprint rebuild:)........ That would make so many different decks equally competitive.
Have you tried Oblivion Stones? It seems to me that they have gone out of fashion for tooth players. The original idea was to tooth for double colossus and blow a stone to smash for 22, but there is so much disruption being played now(barter, echoing truth, etc.) that it hardly ever works. I still think that tooth decks should run at least 3 stones because of it's effectiveness against affinity and other beatdown decks. But, unlike most tooth players now, I still play Jens and I almost always end up drawing a card or two when blowing a stone. If you are trying to find a replacement for mindslaver, I would just throw in a couple of stones and/or rude awakenings(which also enable you to entwine a tooth with only 7 mana available). Then again, it might just be more consistent for your deck to just leave the slavers in. I don't know, just a suggestion......
You could also try the 3-Trike build, they seem to help in getting rid of those darn disciples and can still be a beatdown at the same time......
Since the release of Champions, the metagame in my area has changed from nearly 50% affinity to about 10-15% because people now realize how many decks there are that can beat affinity and that are actually FUN TO PLAY WITH(not to mention, affordable). There are still the usual affinity players around here but I am very happy to say that it isn't 50% anymore. I actually have to worry more about Monoblue and B/G Control than Affinity, but my T&N deck is still built to beat it.........
Edit: BTW, if you'd like to see my decklist, Click Here
I disagree. First of all, in an area with a balanced metagame (all archetypes well-represented and no 50% affinity) U/G Control and Affinity will make up maybe 20% of the field. The angle/abunas combo is only good against these two decks(maybe ponza or R/G L/D, as their burn shouldnt be adequate enough to take on a 5-toughness creature), and they still have a way to deal with it. The Affinity player might be running shrapnel blast, but otherwise -- you're right -- it should be game over. Against U/x control, the other player will most likely notice that you are playing T&N and hold their echoing truths off until you cast tooth, and even then you have an advantage right? Not always, *cough* vedalken shackles *cough*. I would hate to waste my first 5 or 6 turns to get angel/abunas in play and then see them echoing truth my abunas and steal my angel........:evil:
I have one question:
Why do most people run 6-8 tutorable fatties in addition to rude awakening(or Mindslaver, or other alt. win conditions)?
I have found in testing that I have lost less than 5% of games where i have Toothed for kiki and titan/colossus. The only time this ever happens is when a B/G player still has enough land to barter. With my recent CHK build, i have only lost 3 games in testing after having cast T&N. Can someone please explain to me why T&N nowadays(no more Rorix/Akroma) goes for "I tooth for Abunas and Platinum Angel and wait for you to concede" approach instead of the "I have a Hasty Indestructible 11/11 monster heading toward you" approach. I dont play any Platinum Angels because i just think it's stupid to sit and wait for your opponent to draw his/her 2nd shrapnel blast. I would rather try to actually WIN the game rather than earn a concession. If you want a concession just tooth for white/black bringers with one mindslaver in your deck... seems easier to me... please somebody explain.....
Oh how I miss Astral Slide......... sigh...............
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