So we were discussing this at work lately, and we were unable to come to any sort of consensus, so I'd thought I'd see what you all seem to think.
Background;
Now we all know what has happened with Russia lately.
They were aggressive in their actions towards Ukraine, and thus the world, largely led by the UN has placed a whole lot of punitive measures against the Putin-led regime, largely in the form of trade limitations and economic sanctions.
It's hurting them, especially now the oil price has dropped.
So;
WHY is it that some countries get punished harshly for their aggressive actions, whereas others seem to get away with aggressive actions, without any ramifications (or barely any) for their actions, even when it has gone against the wishes of the UN?
And;
Why is it that quite a few leaders in history (political and military) have gotten away with what constitutes war crimes, just because they've happened to be on the winning side?
Discuss.
Your question is one of perspective. You wish to know why sometimes punishment is meted out and sometimes not..AS SEEN FROM A CERTAIN PERSPECTIVE and exclusively identifying "offenders" from said perspective. On top of that you assume there is broad consensus that supports your appointed perspective if not near unanimity.
Not only is your premise suspect, in many cases it is so patently false that it constitutes nothing else but propaganda and enforced ideology.
For example, if Euromaidan has actually produced a Nazi junta that wants to enforce racial purity in comically absurd yet horrific ways (thus people who do not speak the language want to outlaw all other languages) coupled with all of the old murderous Nazi barbarity (burning people alive in buildings, nailing babies to crosses), then your entire narrative that begins with "we all know what has happened lately" crumbles in your hands.
You first have to tell me who "we all" is in "we all know..". Because there is no "we" that includes me and Nazi filth with swastika neck tattoos.
A two-card combo where you need to draft both cards to have either be worth of running in your deck just don't work on my cube, sorry.
There's no need to apologize for having an opinion. Nevertheless, two card combos objectively CAN (and do -- I've seen them plenty of times) work in Cube. You just can't have too many of them and you have to be selective about which ones you seed into your Cube.
Honestly, the objection against them doesn't make any sense anyway. It boils down to the fact that if someone doesn't get both of the required cards and doesn't proceed to draft a deck that wants to use those cards then they are two last picks. But that is just silly -- if no one drafts black aggro (which tends to be dubious) a goodly chunk of the black section in the MAJORITY of Cubes posted on here are last picks. There are many such issues in Cube design that are typically overlooked or swept under the rug.
Secondly, having a few cards end up as unplayables isn't necessarily a bad thing -- Cube drafts tend to give you TOO MANY playables as it is. Filling out the final spots in your Cube with niche choices actually adds a bit of strategy to the draft IMO.
Trying to make sure every card in your Cube has cross purpose applications doesn't work, has never worked, and will never work, because it can't work, even in theory. If you were really building your Cube on that rubric then you wouldn't play cards like Jackal Pup either. Once that line of thinking is exposed as a false standard, then it further becomes clear that when it is invoked it is merely a vehicle to advance the biases and views of whoever is invoking it.
If you don't want two card combos in your Cube or think they are a bad idea or that they are inconsistent, so be it. But those opinions are a far cry from invalidating them in the Cube format.
I don't know of another card I'm playing right now besides Jitte that The Champion would even work for.
You? Mox Opal.
The most commonly played cards The Champion can fetch are Umezawa's Jitte, Spear of Heliod, Whip of Erebos and Hammer of Purphoros, roughly in that order as far as I can tell.
I run only Jitte, Spear and Whip. Still not enough to justify this one, and even if I wanted to I don't see enough options to make it viable (specially with most of the playable ones being colored).
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I have no interest in cubing with Hero cards. They don't have regular backs, lack actual Oracle text, and were not designed to be drafted like the Conspiracies and draft constructs, so I don't really see the point.
The ability to summon Akroma's Memorial for 2 alone pretty much makes The Champion worth it
I agree that this card probably needs to be in a combo deck, but I'm pretty hesitant in using such a silver bullet that you pretty much need to play and use on the turn you're going off.
That doesn't make any sense to me. If Ad Nauseam was playable in Cube wouldn't it precisely fit your description of needing to be played the turn you go off? Won't everyone agree such an effect was extremely strong? Well, thats exactly what N-I is, with a one turn delay.
You play N-I, then you pay 9.5 life at the end of opponent's turn. Next upkeep you pay at most three life to untap your lands (you could've used Dark Ritual or Black Lotus or whatever), draw for the turn, and now you've drawn 20 cards for 12.5 (round down to 12) life.
You could potentially pay around 15 life and draw every card in your deck, which would render N-I's drawback moot since you obviously have to win that turn. So the debate is never about the power level of N-I, its entirely about whether your Cube wants those kind of decks.
The way we've been doing Conspiracies and the accompanying Draft Artifacts is closer to how they actually worked in the Conspiracy set. We put them in different colored sleeves for easy identification and then add one to each "pack" as the 15th card. You can easily use the same method to add Heroes to the mix. In fact it would make it easier since if we played an 8 man draft with 24 packs we wouldn't have enough Conspiracy cards to add one to each pack.
I remember experimenting with Heroes when we first saw them in Theros, but we only tried them one time and I don't think all of them had been released at the time.
Another thing we've experimented with is excluding Un-cards from the Cube proper but having the Lore Seeker pack be 14-15 pre-determined "funny" cards
So it would be something like
Necro-Impotence
Contract from Below
Magical Hacker
Topsy Turvy/Gifts Given
Symbol Status
Incoming!
Once More With Feeling
Cold Snap
Frazzled Editor
Blast from the Past
Chaos Orb
City of Ass
Blacker Lotus
Jack-in-the-Mox
Adding Heroes could augment this plan nicely since there are several very interesting synergies (the aforementioned Gleemax for starters)
The Champion can get Jitte, Akroma's Memorial,any of the God's weapons (including Godsend), Mindslaver, and a few equipments that are good if you cheat them into play like Unscythe and Elbrus.
Of those I assume that Mind Slaver and/or Akroma's Memorial would be the most impactful. You can also get the Helm/Shield/Sword of Kaldra but since The Champion can only be used once it doesn't really work.
It seems to me that they are about as legitimate as Conspiracies to be honest.
Oh yeah, the reason to play The Champion is to get GLEEMAX since you definitely have to play Un-cards if you play Heroes.
Which makes the card even more disruptive than just discarding cards, right? Which makes it extremely powerful (because it is an INSTANT, too), and the 2nd black card in power terms from the Un- cards.
-AA
Its not better than Necro-Impotence (I'm not sure how many cards could be better than a Draw 20). The next best cards are probably Booster Tutor and Enter the Dungeon which are both ok-decent and possibly better in the right cube/citcumstances.
If you are interpreting "Un" cards loosely (and, if you think about it, being strict about it is counter to the entire idea) then Stop That is not better than Contract from Below either (as with Necro-I, I will add an obligatory "duh")
I actually think the card is terrible because I have no desire to spend time playing against people who flick their cards constantly.
I think Uktabi Kong is actually underpowered. I wouldn't pay 8 mana for an 8/8 trampler with Creeping Corrosion. There's a lot of better cards out there
Now that the Orangutan has faded into obsolescence (Reclamation Sage), that is one less monkey for his ability. The more monkeys the better Kong is (in terms of fun, anyway)
Also, there are only 11 8/8 or greater tramplers ever printed for less than 8 mana, and only two come without a drawback in Moldgraf Monstrosity and Terra Stomper. Most of them are either flatout terrible (Eater of Days, Jokulmorder), or gimmicks like Phyrexian Dreadnought. The overlap between 'terrible' and 'gimmick' is also close to 100%. Doomgape is casually playable.
EDIT: I take all of the above back. A poster above indicated that Kong is 7 mana, but on reflection I remembered that is 8 mana. At 8 mana you can do better, unless you are playing an Ape deck. (in which case you can still do better, but why would you want to?)
Ghazbán Ogress! It's an Isamaru in your first game, and if you can win with your deck she'll stick around for you. Unfortunately she can rot in your sideboard when your draft has gone sour on you, but she can help the rich get richer.
I've played the Ogress. It is ok as long as you have enough structure in your games to know who has won the most. It needed to be 3/2 or better to be good though. Also, if you don't play sideboards you have to sub it out for a basic land.
So its like a split card. We call it:
Ogre/No-go-re
Though for black you might want to look at Enter the Dungeon
Enter the Dungeon is a good card but it will be a last pick fairly often just because it is pretty much exclusive to heavy black aggro in practice.
Phasing does not cause echo to trigger. You pay the echo before he phases out on T2 I believe, and then you don't pay it again.
EDIT - I'm wrong. You never pay the echo because of rules changes since it was printed. Weird.
The rules were never such that you paid the echo before Fogey phased out on turn 2 because Phasing occurs before you untap. And while I can't produce the relevant rulings I am almost 100% sure that Phasing never counted as a zone change -- if it did, then 'enter the battlefield' effects trigger every time a card phased in.
I'm pretty sure that you never had to pay Old Fogey's echo even though some rulings on him mistakenly said you did.
I never thought Banding was that confusing.
Banding is a VERY strong defensive ability. They should basically eliminate the offensive part of the ability because it is dumb, mostly superfluous, and quite weak.
As I understand it:
You do not form bands on defense. Instead, if a creature with banding double blocks (or triple etc) then you get to assign the combat damage how you want between all those creatures. Even if you quadruple blocked this would still hold, even if only one of the creatures had banding because you *don't form bands on defense*.
In Cube Old Fogey's banding is only relevant with Changelings or Clones which will pop up basically never.
I've played with Old Fogey a TON and I'm 99% sure its better than Fruitcake Elemental. I leave 1% of doubt because we could never figure out how to maximize Fruitcake Elemental. At any rate, both of them are wildly better if you have trample (Rancor/Berserk) and/or haste (if you play conspiracies).
Your question is one of perspective. You wish to know why sometimes punishment is meted out and sometimes not..AS SEEN FROM A CERTAIN PERSPECTIVE and exclusively identifying "offenders" from said perspective. On top of that you assume there is broad consensus that supports your appointed perspective if not near unanimity.
Not only is your premise suspect, in many cases it is so patently false that it constitutes nothing else but propaganda and enforced ideology.
For example, if Euromaidan has actually produced a Nazi junta that wants to enforce racial purity in comically absurd yet horrific ways (thus people who do not speak the language want to outlaw all other languages) coupled with all of the old murderous Nazi barbarity (burning people alive in buildings, nailing babies to crosses), then your entire narrative that begins with "we all know what has happened lately" crumbles in your hands.
You first have to tell me who "we all" is in "we all know..". Because there is no "we" that includes me and Nazi filth with swastika neck tattoos.
There's no need to apologize for having an opinion. Nevertheless, two card combos objectively CAN (and do -- I've seen them plenty of times) work in Cube. You just can't have too many of them and you have to be selective about which ones you seed into your Cube.
Honestly, the objection against them doesn't make any sense anyway. It boils down to the fact that if someone doesn't get both of the required cards and doesn't proceed to draft a deck that wants to use those cards then they are two last picks. But that is just silly -- if no one drafts black aggro (which tends to be dubious) a goodly chunk of the black section in the MAJORITY of Cubes posted on here are last picks. There are many such issues in Cube design that are typically overlooked or swept under the rug.
Secondly, having a few cards end up as unplayables isn't necessarily a bad thing -- Cube drafts tend to give you TOO MANY playables as it is. Filling out the final spots in your Cube with niche choices actually adds a bit of strategy to the draft IMO.
Trying to make sure every card in your Cube has cross purpose applications doesn't work, has never worked, and will never work, because it can't work, even in theory. If you were really building your Cube on that rubric then you wouldn't play cards like Jackal Pup either. Once that line of thinking is exposed as a false standard, then it further becomes clear that when it is invoked it is merely a vehicle to advance the biases and views of whoever is invoking it.
If you don't want two card combos in your Cube or think they are a bad idea or that they are inconsistent, so be it. But those opinions are a far cry from invalidating them in the Cube format.
The ability to summon Akroma's Memorial for 2 alone pretty much makes The Champion worth it
That doesn't make any sense to me. If Ad Nauseam was playable in Cube wouldn't it precisely fit your description of needing to be played the turn you go off? Won't everyone agree such an effect was extremely strong? Well, thats exactly what N-I is, with a one turn delay.
You play N-I, then you pay 9.5 life at the end of opponent's turn. Next upkeep you pay at most three life to untap your lands (you could've used Dark Ritual or Black Lotus or whatever), draw for the turn, and now you've drawn 20 cards for 12.5 (round down to 12) life.
You could potentially pay around 15 life and draw every card in your deck, which would render N-I's drawback moot since you obviously have to win that turn. So the debate is never about the power level of N-I, its entirely about whether your Cube wants those kind of decks.
I remember experimenting with Heroes when we first saw them in Theros, but we only tried them one time and I don't think all of them had been released at the time.
Another thing we've experimented with is excluding Un-cards from the Cube proper but having the Lore Seeker pack be 14-15 pre-determined "funny" cards
So it would be something like
Necro-Impotence
Contract from Below
Magical Hacker
Topsy Turvy/Gifts Given
Symbol Status
Incoming!
Once More With Feeling
Cold Snap
Frazzled Editor
Blast from the Past
Chaos Orb
City of Ass
Blacker Lotus
Jack-in-the-Mox
Adding Heroes could augment this plan nicely since there are several very interesting synergies (the aforementioned Gleemax for starters)
http://sales.starcitygames.com/category.php?cat=5279
You can see The Champion at this link (select 9 on the list 1 2 3 ..)
http://www.wizards.com/Promo/HerosPath/Default.aspx
Of those I assume that Mind Slaver and/or Akroma's Memorial would be the most impactful. You can also get the Helm/Shield/Sword of Kaldra but since The Champion can only be used once it doesn't really work.
It seems to me that they are about as legitimate as Conspiracies to be honest.
Oh yeah, the reason to play The Champion is to get GLEEMAX since you definitely have to play Un-cards if you play Heroes.
Its not better than Necro-Impotence (I'm not sure how many cards could be better than a Draw 20). The next best cards are probably Booster Tutor and Enter the Dungeon which are both ok-decent and possibly better in the right cube/citcumstances.
If you are interpreting "Un" cards loosely (and, if you think about it, being strict about it is counter to the entire idea) then Stop That is not better than Contract from Below either (as with Necro-I, I will add an obligatory "duh")
I actually think the card is terrible because I have no desire to spend time playing against people who flick their cards constantly.
Now that the Orangutan has faded into obsolescence (Reclamation Sage), that is one less monkey for his ability. The more monkeys the better Kong is (in terms of fun, anyway)
Also, there are only 11 8/8 or greater tramplers ever printed for less than 8 mana, and only two come without a drawback in Moldgraf Monstrosity and Terra Stomper. Most of them are either flatout terrible (Eater of Days, Jokulmorder), or gimmicks like Phyrexian Dreadnought. The overlap between 'terrible' and 'gimmick' is also close to 100%. Doomgape is casually playable.
EDIT: I take all of the above back. A poster above indicated that Kong is 7 mana, but on reflection I remembered that is 8 mana. At 8 mana you can do better, unless you are playing an Ape deck. (in which case you can still do better, but why would you want to?)
I've played the Ogress. It is ok as long as you have enough structure in your games to know who has won the most. It needed to be 3/2 or better to be good though. Also, if you don't play sideboards you have to sub it out for a basic land.
So its like a split card. We call it:
Ogre/No-go-re
Enter the Dungeon is a good card but it will be a last pick fairly often just because it is pretty much exclusive to heavy black aggro in practice.
You will want GG4 available when you cast it. At that point it will come down to a couple things:
1. can one player afford to take 7 from Fruitcake's ability?
2. is either player a threat to connect with Fruitcake (ie no opposing chump blockers)
I'm pretty sure its good if you can give it haste and trample (Berserk is pretty neat on it)
The rules were never such that you paid the echo before Fogey phased out on turn 2 because Phasing occurs before you untap. And while I can't produce the relevant rulings I am almost 100% sure that Phasing never counted as a zone change -- if it did, then 'enter the battlefield' effects trigger every time a card phased in.
I'm pretty sure that you never had to pay Old Fogey's echo even though some rulings on him mistakenly said you did.
Banding is a VERY strong defensive ability. They should basically eliminate the offensive part of the ability because it is dumb, mostly superfluous, and quite weak.
As I understand it:
You do not form bands on defense. Instead, if a creature with banding double blocks (or triple etc) then you get to assign the combat damage how you want between all those creatures. Even if you quadruple blocked this would still hold, even if only one of the creatures had banding because you *don't form bands on defense*.
In Cube Old Fogey's banding is only relevant with Changelings or Clones which will pop up basically never.
I've played with Old Fogey a TON and I'm 99% sure its better than Fruitcake Elemental. I leave 1% of doubt because we could never figure out how to maximize Fruitcake Elemental. At any rate, both of them are wildly better if you have trample (Rancor/Berserk) and/or haste (if you play conspiracies).
Can't be serious, obvious gimmick
It would be good in a Blink deck, I agree. We didn't play it in that shell, but I would still be skeptical of whether it was good enough overall.