I'm guessing it might be the same WW with the blue splash that saw some action at the Illinois NQ but who really knows? Same with the three R/W lists, I'm gonna assume it's a WW splash without any information to tell me otherwise. Plus, they named them "weenie."
Eric Froehlich's sideboard isn't listed with his Esper Control list but I'm glad to have some validation behind my decision to run a full suite of both Colonnade and Tar Pit in my own list. Or, you know, following up Fabiano's Boston 5K performance and continuing to show that UWb works in the first place. Esper Charm and highly superior sideboard options > Ajani V.
I also approve of the 3x Jace Beleren in the Super Friends list. Unlike Cancel for permission, there are plenty of viable alternatives for "that" card, such as: Ponder, Courier's Capsule, Sea Gate Oracle, Treasure Hunt in some instances... Please, stop using it.
Might be time for me to hit the stream like everyone else, woo?
Honestly, WW has a reasonable match with Mythic variants, if for no other reason than they lack removal and instantly lose to a Collared First Striker. Aside UW control, though, Polymorph is also a virtual bye and that also kinda sucks with Polymorph players trying to push their baby to Tier 1 status.
WW is in a similar position to Vampires right now, though. It suffers greatly against a particular single top deck and, despite having game against everything else, gets dismissed as second-rate. Of course, there's also Polymorph to consider matchup-wise and WW lacks the popular appeal of Vamps...
Elspeth can win just by putting you to zero life one turn slower than Ajani V can blow up your lands, so if they're both sufficiently protected by counterspells then Elspeth isn't much worse. Elspeth can also beat down any Planeswalker you successfully resolve, where Ajani can't do the same without losing the threat of his own ultimate. I think where Ajani really shines is, as I said, T4 on the play. Then you tap down their land, they can't play a PW in response and have to scramble for an O-Ring or lose. Do that on the draw (or past T4) and the opponent can just play Elspeth in response and not give a crap, play Jace and severely increase their chances of finding an answer for Ajani, or whatever.
But eh regardless, the bigger point I was making was actually that first part. Straight UW doesn't play Ajani and we don't play Ajani. Ajani can't very well win a control mirror in which neither player is using him. Jace and Elspeth win games, and sneaking in copies of Jace Beleren from your sideboard is a good way to get ahead in the Jace race while still being a serviceable draw engine. Even in the UWr mirror, nobody's siding in Ajani Goldmane to pre-empt their opponent's Vengeant, that's for sure...
Dedicated Emeria deck = mono-white control, so... What do you even need Negate/Duress against them for, Elspeth/Gideon I guess? ;/ Keeping the Paths might be a better idea, since Emeria can't recur exiled creatures, but between Spreading Seas and Tectonic Edge, land-based decks (namely Emeria and Valakut) should be nearly auto-win anyway. Luminarch Ascension is a lot less scary for us than it would be other UW decks, since Esper Charm can destroy it, but I guess if you see 2-3 of them in the opening turns then it can be difficult to find multiple answers before it's too late. Just bad luck, perhaps? *shrug* You can sideboard in Identity Crisis too, since that'll nuke their graveyard.
On that note, holynorth, I have a singleton copy of Beleren in my SB and I'd honestly like to be able to fit in a second copy. Aside being more copies of any Jace, where being the first to stick a Jace or Elspeth often wins control mirrors, he also lets you side out useless Wall of Omens without losing card drawing power. He's no Mindsculptor but you can always just -1 him to the GY if you have a copy of TMS in your hand you want to play. Short of being at <5 life and having an enemy Bloodwitch or BSA breathing down your neck (in a control mirror?), it's not like being in the way of your own Mindsculptor is a big deal.
Seas isn't necessarily a better T2 drop than Courier's Capsule. If your opponent hasn't played a manland and there's not a big opportunity for color screw, you shouldn't drop Seas unless you're looking short on land or have to dig for a T4 DoJ. Similar with Wall of Omens, if you even keep them in, they don't need dropped T2 against control opponents. Anyway, I'm not using the extra draw spells, so maybe Divination is still better I dunno. I was just throwing out viable alternatives that are worth testing for those of you who do want the additional draw.
Nothing much on my end other than to say I'm really, realling liking the full suite of manlands. (See my previous post for the current manabase.) I think I'm willing to start endorsing Tar Pit as the better manland but the Colonnades are still nice to keep around because they're still fixing blue/white mana and it gives you that all-important much greater chance of keeping any manland active in control mirrors.
Only complaint I have with my current manabase is that sometimes I wish I had down two black sources so I could swing with the other one. I haven't had any issues with missing my black for casting spells and my "too many CIPT lands" issue has largely been solved by my increase in basic lands. I'm now happy with the manabase as-is. Arcane Sanctum is unnecessary color-fixing considering that only 4-6 cards in the deck even use it (plus SB Duress) and the manlands are better utility. Might replace Glacial Fortress #3 for a single Sanctum to slightly alleviate the aforementioned problem of activating Tar Pit... Maybe running 25 land it's a different story? *shrug* I can't imagine it's that big a difference.
Oops, forgot I took out the Tectonic Edge to make the manabase work too! Fair enough, that's a substantial deviation I made there. But hey, whatever. Tried and true in today's Standard, playing down threats your opponent has to answer is better than the other way around. Seas and Path still answer manlands, with Tec Edge's notable advantage being that it can't be countered. Worse comes to worst, you have an extra manland you can use to block theirs... and still have an extra one on the sideline waiting to be used! Edge also counts as part of the manabase and can screw an opponent with a shaky hand/draw but producing only colorless mana is a real downer and the latter situation doesn't often come into play.
I guess in the end, I'm saying I'd rather play eight manlands than 4-6 manlands with a couple Tectonic Edge. They help fix colors, like any other dual-land, where Edge is a liability early when trying to hit UU or WW casting costs. Then to compensate for that, Edge-users have to run more taplands too, making the early game tougher. I think that's the big plus with the manlands, since whether "more manlands" or "more answers to opposing manlands" is better depends on your meta. More manlands is better for control, more answers is better for non-control... but improving your ability to cast spells is a strong argument regardless of the opponent.
I also don't care if the Tar Pit can be Bolted. UW-based control decks, including most versions of "Super Friends," don't haveLightning Bolt and I can only hope they waste slots siding in Celestial Purge to deal with my land. (Singleton Vess, granted, but she's not a major constituent of this deck as Ajani V is UWr.) Jund and friends can Bolt my manlands all day, I've already won if I'm forcing them to Bolt my manland instead of burning my face or killing a Planeswalker with it.
I can see why manlands wouldn't be necessary if you want to play the Ultimatum version, as you're shooting for a T7-10 win directly off your Ultimatum... but I don't care about that.
Anyway, to respond to some other stuff you guys have been posting today...
LC, what about Ponder or Courier's Capsule over Divination? Compared to Ponder, is it just the "two cards are better than one" thing? Ponder can also be played T1 if you so desire, played T3 while leaving up counter mana (important on the draw in a control mirror), and it gives you an extra shuffling option with Jace late-game. Courier's Capsule costs one more total but the cost is split up and you can draw as an Instant. Have you tested or even considered either of these options? After all, SGO ain't Divination's only competition. And I'm glad to hear you came to realize the same thing I did, that Coup is too slow for a board sweep and unnecessary as a win-con.
I'm still liking Liliana myself, Mortox. At worst, she's an extra copy of whatever you'd most like to see mid/late-game. She's a toolbox of any singleton copies of cards you have in the deck (most notably, SB Identity Crisis) and, like any PW, she's a win-con if she sticks for any appreciable length of time. But hey, more power to you if you prefer to run without her. I understand the concern, since I started out running two copies of her. (Two copies of the 5-CMC PWs and three of the 4-CMC ones, heh.) Like everyone else, I eventually dropped to a single copy for that very reason but she's been too good for me to dump her entirely. I'd almost always prefer her to a Martial Coup, if that means anything. ;/
Esper Charm is obviously no substitute for a counter itself, but drawing more cards = more likely to have more counters. If they don't play anything you can counter, which they won't until they have at least six mana if they can help it (see above post), then you Esper Charm EOT and have an extra card. ;/ It's not difficult.
Also, speaking of things better than Divination, there's also Courier's Capsule. You also get to activate that at Instant speed.
Since it was mentioned, Ponder is better than Divination if you really feel the need for another draw spell (or if you're not using Esper Charm but let's leave that to straight UW or UWr). It's not straight-up CA but the card quality is just as good early on and the shuffling option is especially nice for Jace later if you don't have a fetchland to crack. The 1-CMC is also extremely relevant. You're not playing anything else in the deck on Turn 1 anyway, you can play it T3 while still keeping up counter mana (or dropping WoO). Even late, when Divination's mana cost is less of a downer, that extra two mana is just what you need to play down another Planeswalker, activate your manland, or leave open for a counter. It's a blowout in favor of Ponder if you're running an Ultimatum list especially, of course, since then you get a decent look at some of what you're "cascading" into.
I've nothing to say, Tromack, other than having 4x Deprive in the board would be completely silly. You'd be better off splitting 2/2 with Cancel since Deprive is virtually unplayable in the early turns anyway. Better still would be to split one of them with Duress, which draws out counters itself and might let you force something through at an opportune time.
"If you take out the Esper Charms, you might as well not be splashing Black at all and play straight UW or UWr like everyone else."
I would have to disagree.
The only time you really want to cast Esper Charm is turn 3. Nothing lands on that turn for Brilliant Ult.dec anyway so drawing two cards is great, but you are essentially letting the opponent set up what they want to do for turns 4, 5, and beyond by doing the best thing they can on turn 3.
You basically said, "I would have to disagree [that taking out Esper Charm destroys the entire point of splashing black]." and then none of the other cards you mentioned even use black mana. Did you misread what you quoted? What you followed with after "disagreeing" with me makes it sound like you agree with me completely.
Anyway, as LC said, Esper Charm is so much more than just an Instant Divination. Even if that's all it was, it still plays nicely with counters. Nothing to counter? Grats, you get your cards. T3 Blightning? Go ahead and counter it, draw next time. That's completely standard Draw-Go playing.
If you had read it, you'd know. "Pretty standard fare, similar to LC's old list (or current list)." (i.e. Traditional UW control with black splash.) I wouldn't be playing Brilliant Ultimatum.dec with only six black sources (plus fetches) anyway, that should be obvious.
But yeah, I'm usually a little too wordy... *shrug*
Mr. E what are you running that you made those changes?
Why do you ask? Pretty standard fare, similar to LC's old list (or current list). I haven't had much exposure to the aggro decks necessary to evaluate the 2-of Baneslayers myself, so they're still there. One less sweeper (+1 DoJ, no Coup) and one more Elspeth. I should probably re-evaluate my singleton Deprive since I'm running all eight manlands now, maybe turn it back into a Cancel. I could dump it entirely, it's not that great, but it's still Negate #5 at worst and I'm grateful when I can catch a problem creature with it, like SoJI or SGC.
Sorry, rambling. You probably meant the mana base. First off, running 26 land because missing early land drops is ass. Even then, I still feel like I want land more often than I end up flooding, but what can I say? *shrug*
I started off with a 3/3 split of manlands, so I got a fair chance to evaluate both of them as a creature threat, the full set of Arcane Sanctum, and a couple Tectonic Edge. Including the requisite Marsh Flats and small number of basics, that's pretty much as expected, yes?
A bit unhappy with the number of CIPT lands, I tried shaving a couple Sanctums off for more basics. Mana base felt a little shakier at that point so I was tinkering with the M10 duals... but they weren't much different than having Sanctums because I didn't really have enough basics to consistently get them in untapped. So, I said screw it and dumped the Tec Edges for more colored lands and, as mentioned, I made some minor changes to the MD to include an extra PtE to make up for losing the Edges as a manland kill. Maybe I should consider Smother? Anyway...
The increase in basics has certainly helped me get lands in untapped when necessary but this incarnation of the mana base is more basic-heavy than ever. I noticed I had a wee bit too much black mana (Drowned Catacomb and even Arcane Sanctum is overkill), so I've cut it down to nothing but the Tar Pits and a couple basic Swamps to grab from fetches or Path. The blue sources are where they should be, rarely failing to hit UU when I want it and always seeing one early. White I continue to thirst for, between wanting one for T2 WoO and the WW in Elspeth, Gideon, DoJ [and Baneslayer still], hence why my white sources keep going up.
If that still doesn't work, which I hope it does, well then I might just have to start cutting Tar Pits after all. I've really liked Tar Pit in testing, though. I don't have the balls to claim it's better than Colonnade -- they're both good at different things -- but it's certainly pulled its weight for me. In the end, though, it's still a land. If it hurts the mana base more than it helps as a creature threat, then it'll have to go. It might end up with a 2-2 split of Tar Pit and Sanctum or something at least. *shrug*
Keep in mind that I'm still casual and not facing a whole lot of pro-level competition too. I'm not stupid but, by definition, my testing simply can't be as rigorous as some might like. Take what I say with a grain of salt.
Path also costs only 1-CMC, W is slightly more available than B, blagh blagh blagh... Even in control mirrors, you can Path your own Walls game 1 for ramp, if necessary, where Doom Blade is "only" a manland killer. (It doesn't kill Tar Pit either but compared to Colonnade that's almost a non-issue.) Doom Blade isn't bad but there's no particular reason to use it over Path. And with regard to my last post, obviously I meant SGO over Divination and not Esper Charm.
In a similar vein to Geopede Jund, last week I'd figured to try out some changes to the mana base. I went up to a full set of manlands (both of 'em), to ensure I see them against fellow control decks, and then dropped the tri-lands and 2-of Tectonic Edge for more basics because I'm ****ing sick of Goblin Ruinblaster screwing me. Upped the MD Path count to make up for the loss of Tec Edge against manlands and it should improve aggro matchups slightly at the same time. Haven't played with it much yet (final exam johns) but it's been pretty decent to me so far.
If the opponent had SURPRISE JACE BELEREN in-hand, I'd imagine he'd probably try to sneak it in there on T3 before Brightbo could put down TMS. Playing the untapped land for T2 Wall of Omens, when he already knows the WoO doesn't have to come down for early protection against aggro, is probably his attempt at fishing for land (if he's short on it) or a Negate (if he didn't have one).
Maybe it's just me but I don't think passing the turn is such an obvious decision. (i.e. I understand the dilemma here.) Missing early land drops in a control mirror is every bit as devastating as tapping out first, getting countered, and seeing Jace or Elspeth come down on the other side of the field. You don't know if they're even running a full set of Negate in their 75 (three is not uncommon) so the odds are probably in your favor if you choose to roll the dice and play Jace. Sticking him can be as much a win as getting countered would be a loss, so I can't advocate against the choice.
That said, I still gotta go with the popular opinion. (Pass turn.) The T2 Wall may have been fishing for land, so it's possible that missing your land drop won't hurt you. They may also miss their land drop, nothing happens for a couple turns, and your hand is probably better. (You already have Negate + two Jace...) Passing also allows your opponent the chance to mistakenly tap out himself, in which case you've almost won the game right there.
I also approve of the 3x Jace Beleren in the Super Friends list. Unlike Cancel for permission, there are plenty of viable alternatives for "that" card, such as: Ponder, Courier's Capsule, Sea Gate Oracle, Treasure Hunt in some instances... Please, stop using it.
Might be time for me to hit the stream like everyone else, woo?
WW is in a similar position to Vampires right now, though. It suffers greatly against a particular single top deck and, despite having game against everything else, gets dismissed as second-rate. Of course, there's also Polymorph to consider matchup-wise and WW lacks the popular appeal of Vamps...
But eh regardless, the bigger point I was making was actually that first part.
Dedicated Emeria deck = mono-white control, so... What do you even need Negate/Duress against them for, Elspeth/Gideon I guess? ;/ Keeping the Paths might be a better idea, since Emeria can't recur exiled creatures, but between Spreading Seas and Tectonic Edge, land-based decks (namely Emeria and Valakut) should be nearly auto-win anyway. Luminarch Ascension is a lot less scary for us than it would be other UW decks, since Esper Charm can destroy it, but I guess if you see 2-3 of them in the opening turns then it can be difficult to find multiple answers before it's too late. Just bad luck, perhaps? *shrug* You can sideboard in Identity Crisis too, since that'll nuke their graveyard.
Seas isn't necessarily a better T2 drop than Courier's Capsule. If your opponent hasn't played a manland and there's not a big opportunity for color screw, you shouldn't drop Seas unless you're looking short on land or have to dig for a T4 DoJ. Similar with Wall of Omens, if you even keep them in, they don't need dropped T2 against control opponents. Anyway, I'm not using the extra draw spells, so maybe Divination is still better I dunno. I was just throwing out viable alternatives that are worth testing for those of you who do want the additional draw.
Only complaint I have with my current manabase is that sometimes I wish I had down two black sources so I could swing with the other one. I haven't had any issues with missing my black for casting spells and my "too many CIPT lands" issue has largely been solved by my increase in basic lands. I'm now happy with the manabase as-is. Arcane Sanctum is unnecessary color-fixing considering that only 4-6 cards in the deck even use it (plus SB Duress) and the manlands are better utility. Might replace Glacial Fortress #3 for a single Sanctum to slightly alleviate the aforementioned problem of activating Tar Pit... Maybe running 25 land it's a different story? *shrug* I can't imagine it's that big a difference.
Oops, forgot I took out the Tectonic Edge to make the manabase work too! Fair enough, that's a substantial deviation I made there. But hey, whatever. Tried and true in today's Standard, playing down threats your opponent has to answer is better than the other way around.
I guess in the end, I'm saying I'd rather play eight manlands than 4-6 manlands with a couple Tectonic Edge. They help fix colors, like any other dual-land, where Edge is a liability early when trying to hit UU or WW casting costs. Then to compensate for that, Edge-users have to run more taplands too, making the early game tougher. I think that's the big plus with the manlands, since whether "more manlands" or "more answers to opposing manlands" is better depends on your meta. More manlands is better for control, more answers is better for non-control... but improving your ability to cast spells is a strong argument regardless of the opponent.
I also don't care if the Tar Pit can be Bolted. UW-based control decks, including most versions of "Super Friends," don't have Lightning Bolt and I can only hope they waste slots siding in Celestial Purge to deal with my land. (Singleton Vess, granted, but she's not a major constituent of this deck as Ajani V is UWr.) Jund and friends can Bolt my manlands all day, I've already won if I'm forcing them to Bolt my manland instead of burning my face or killing a Planeswalker with it.
I can see why manlands wouldn't be necessary if you want to play the Ultimatum version, as you're shooting for a T7-10 win directly off your Ultimatum... but I don't care about that.
Anyway, to respond to some other stuff you guys have been posting today...
LC, what about Ponder or Courier's Capsule over Divination? Compared to Ponder, is it just the "two cards are better than one" thing? Ponder can also be played T1 if you so desire, played T3 while leaving up counter mana (important on the draw in a control mirror), and it gives you an extra shuffling option with Jace late-game. Courier's Capsule costs one more total but the cost is split up and you can draw as an Instant. Have you tested or even considered either of these options? After all, SGO ain't Divination's only competition. And I'm glad to hear you came to realize the same thing I did, that Coup is too slow for a board sweep and unnecessary as a win-con.
I'm still liking Liliana myself, Mortox. At worst, she's an extra copy of whatever you'd most like to see mid/late-game. She's a toolbox of any singleton copies of cards you have in the deck (most notably, SB Identity Crisis) and, like any PW, she's a win-con if she sticks for any appreciable length of time. But hey, more power to you if you prefer to run without her. I understand the concern, since I started out running two copies of her. (Two copies of the 5-CMC PWs and three of the 4-CMC ones, heh.) Like everyone else, I eventually dropped to a single copy for that very reason but she's been too good for me to dump her entirely. I'd almost always prefer her to a Martial Coup, if that means anything. ;/
Also, speaking of things better than Divination, there's also Courier's Capsule. You also get to activate that at Instant speed.
I've nothing to say, Tromack, other than having 4x Deprive in the board would be completely silly. You'd be better off splitting 2/2 with Cancel since Deprive is virtually unplayable in the early turns anyway. Better still would be to split one of them with Duress, which draws out counters itself and might let you force something through at an opportune time.
You basically said, "I would have to disagree [that taking out Esper Charm destroys the entire point of splashing black]." and then none of the other cards you mentioned even use black mana. Did you misread what you quoted? What you followed with after "disagreeing" with me makes it sound like you agree with me completely.
Anyway, as LC said, Esper Charm is so much more than just an Instant Divination. Even if that's all it was, it still plays nicely with counters. Nothing to counter? Grats, you get your cards. T3 Blightning? Go ahead and counter it, draw next time. That's completely standard Draw-Go playing.
But yeah, I'm usually a little too wordy... *shrug*
Why do you ask? Pretty standard fare, similar to LC's old list (or current list). I haven't had much exposure to the aggro decks necessary to evaluate the 2-of Baneslayers myself, so they're still there. One less sweeper (+1 DoJ, no Coup) and one more Elspeth. I should probably re-evaluate my singleton Deprive since I'm running all eight manlands now, maybe turn it back into a Cancel. I could dump it entirely, it's not that great, but it's still Negate #5 at worst and I'm grateful when I can catch a problem creature with it, like SoJI or SGC.
Sorry, rambling. You probably meant the mana base.
I started off with a 3/3 split of manlands, so I got a fair chance to evaluate both of them as a creature threat, the full set of Arcane Sanctum, and a couple Tectonic Edge. Including the requisite Marsh Flats and small number of basics, that's pretty much as expected, yes?
A bit unhappy with the number of CIPT lands, I tried shaving a couple Sanctums off for more basics. Mana base felt a little shakier at that point so I was tinkering with the M10 duals... but they weren't much different than having Sanctums because I didn't really have enough basics to consistently get them in untapped. So, I said screw it and dumped the Tec Edges for more colored lands and, as mentioned, I made some minor changes to the MD to include an extra PtE to make up for losing the Edges as a manland kill. Maybe I should consider Smother? Anyway...
Currently I'm in testing with...
3 Island
2 Swamp
6 Plains
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Glacial Fortress
The increase in basics has certainly helped me get lands in untapped when necessary but this incarnation of the mana base is more basic-heavy than ever. I noticed I had a wee bit too much black mana (Drowned Catacomb and even Arcane Sanctum is overkill), so I've cut it down to nothing but the Tar Pits and a couple basic Swamps to grab from fetches or Path. The blue sources are where they should be, rarely failing to hit UU when I want it and always seeing one early. White I continue to thirst for, between wanting one for T2 WoO and the WW in Elspeth, Gideon, DoJ [and Baneslayer still], hence why my white sources keep going up.
If that still doesn't work, which I hope it does, well then I might just have to start cutting Tar Pits after all.
Keep in mind that I'm still casual and not facing a whole lot of pro-level competition too. I'm not stupid but, by definition, my testing simply can't be as rigorous as some might like. Take what I say with a grain of salt.
In a similar vein to Geopede Jund, last week I'd figured to try out some changes to the mana base. I went up to a full set of manlands (both of 'em), to ensure I see them against fellow control decks, and then dropped the tri-lands and 2-of Tectonic Edge for more basics because I'm ****ing sick of Goblin Ruinblaster screwing me. Upped the MD Path count to make up for the loss of Tec Edge against manlands and it should improve aggro matchups slightly at the same time. Haven't played with it much yet (final exam johns) but it's been pretty decent to me so far.
Maybe it's just me but I don't think passing the turn is such an obvious decision. (i.e. I understand the dilemma here.) Missing early land drops in a control mirror is every bit as devastating as tapping out first, getting countered, and seeing Jace or Elspeth come down on the other side of the field. You don't know if they're even running a full set of Negate in their 75 (three is not uncommon) so the odds are probably in your favor if you choose to roll the dice and play Jace. Sticking him can be as much a win as getting countered would be a loss, so I can't advocate against the choice.
That said, I still gotta go with the popular opinion. (Pass turn.) The T2 Wall may have been fishing for land, so it's possible that missing your land drop won't hurt you. They may also miss their land drop, nothing happens for a couple turns, and your hand is probably better. (You already have Negate + two Jace...) Passing also allows your opponent the chance to mistakenly tap out himself, in which case you've almost won the game right there.