How is Jund any good against combo? Isn't the only relevant card that it runs Thoughtseize? Zoo is at least able to splash blue for more relevant cards.
-Thoughseize
-Inquisition
-Blightning
-Thorn of Amethyst
-Liliana for discard and against reanimator combo decks that put a big fatty into play.
-Relic against graveyard combo
-Pulse against empty the warrens combo and pyromancer's ascession
-Torpor orb for twin decks
-Surgical extraction type cards
-Many others I'm sure
Jund's strength against combo comes from cheap effective discard in both quality and quantity that will strip an opponent of their key spells and be left to fend of a swarm of guys. A draw as simple as: T1 TS/Inq, T2 Goyf, T3 Blightning bash for 4+ damage is going to put a big bump in the road.
This doesn't include jund's ability to just assume the aggro role and bash a way to victory via damage. Jund can goldfish some reletively fast kills and this is assuming the combo player will have every card they need everytime you play. While jund doesnt need as sculpted of a hand. In short, jund is just fine against combo.
Hatching Plans has no upside when it comes into play though. The two wellsprings both do.
I like the synergy but what deck does this fit in and what are you gonna do against aggro while you're durdling with this synergy. Don't get me wrong, I like it a lot and would use it in a proper shell but just what is that shell that isn't going to get steamrolled by aggro atm?
Claw of Gix is the other piece. Which gains life which is good against aggro. Pay 1: draw 3, gain a life is cool. It was in a storm deck from a while back. Turn 1 or 2 empty the warrens for 12+ guys beats just about any deck. The deck its self is missing some parts but most of it is intact. I think rite of flame is the only big card missing. I would replace it with the new get 3 mana for 2 mana card. Can't remember its name. I don't know if this is the route the OP was going though.
I am for the unbanning of a few cards. Blossom, Vision, and Jace really shouldn't be on that list.
You can't be serious. Am I the only person who thinks of visions on turn 1. Leaves suspend draws 3. And last I hear its cost was no cost but for CMC situations is considered 0. Snapcaster being in the format with it makes it way to good. Visions should stay banned unless snapcaster goes. Bitterblossom is a griefing card just like Jitte. If punishing fire gets banned and bitterblossom gets unbanned, expecially with visions, we will plummet back into the 99% fae era again, no thanks. Jace should stay banned too. Why bring back that trauma we had and not to long ago either. Modern is a format where midrange actually has a chance. Jace is at his best feasting on midrange decks that are to slow to kill him and not controlling enough to protect themselves against him. Not ot mention your talking about restoring fae to full power with jace too, no way.
Unbanning is the correct answer here. Maybe ban a few more cards but unbanning certain cards would realy help. Mental Mistep is one. I don't think this card was to good in modern. In legacy it is but modern, no. Turn 1 nactle is much more manageble. Chrome mox is another card worth considering possibly. That's about it. I like the current format, I think its awesome. Not much needs to change in my opinion.
Well guys, i can`t believe i will ever take part in a conversation involving a serious intention of banning zoo cards or even fecthlands, it feels so crazy i can't put it into words.
You better calm down i think Death Cloud has a 60% win rate against zoo in Worlds, Martyr Proclamation anyone?, even teachings has a 55% percent of wins against zoo, that`s right a positive percentage.
Can`t take seriously this conversation, just sharing my opinion, but zoo was the deck to go for people that dind`t test the format for Worlds which was the entire Pro Scene that`s why it was the most played deck. Wait a little until the format develops, this ban nonsense it`s not gonna give us a better format, because if you already are supporting the idea of banning fecthlands then what's the next step?
I have to agree. Am I really in a conversation where people think zoo is to good. The default go to deck in an unknown format. Ban a 3/3 for 1 mana? What planet am I on? Sounds to me like Chapin and a bunch of blue players are crying that control isn't the best deck. The format right now is awesome. Are you all seriously in a funk that you will complain that you can't beat zoo. Zoo never stays on top forever. This is way to premature. Zoo is very beatable. The fact that your mad that you can beat 3/3s and 2/3 for 1 mana with your turn 1 island is a bit silly. I have got to have a 60+ percent win aggainst zoo minimum. Is beating zoo really that hard?
I was dominating the whole game, the amulet was the only thing I allowed to hit the board, Didn't think much of it.. the worst part is he topdecked the colossus :\
It was for fun but in standard right now:
Guy I know: Plays a sword of feast and famine. Equips his snapcaster mage and bashes through a thrun. Untaps and re-equips to another guy. he's at 10. Passes turn.
Opponent: Draws a land and plays it. Has thrun, wolfrun, and 12 land. Passes turn!
Guy: Swords him again. opponent has thrun, titan, and garruk in hand. Discards garruk, lol. Re-equips to other guy and passes.
Opponent: Draws a land and plays it. Looks and thrun. Looks at wolfrun. Passes turn!
Guy: Swords his opponent. He discards titan! Passes and says, "good game?"
Opponent: Kodama of the North Tree
Friend of Mine: K resolves
Next turn
Opponent: Kodama of the North Tree. "Does it resolve, I know you want to counter it?"
Friend: "Nah bra, get your verb on."
Me+Audience: ......
Random guy: Plays stuffy doll on opponent.
His opponent: K, *gives him a dumb look* Takes his turn and plays some guys. Passes.
Random Guy: What are you at? (13) Attacks all in. Opponent blocks and takes no damage.
His opponent: "Take nothing, return fire kill you?"
Random Guy: "Mainphase two, Shivan Meteor my Stuffy Doll."
Opponent: RAGES!!! Then gets dq'ed later for collusion. Hahahaha.
Alot of people at my store were trying to squeeze in a ghost quarter. Spellskite is good but dies to ancient grudge, so bare that in mind. Ramping into titan, ala valakut mirror, tatics is where it is at. Acidic slime is a big player too. It blows up inkmoth, wolfrun, spellskite, and swords. Which makes it seem like the best option. I think a ghost quarter and a set of slimes and ancient grudges are a good start.
Sun Titan on image, into image, into image,into whatever.
Right now though it has to be bash with inkmoth nexus, give it plus 234324/ plus 0, trample, and infect your opponent right out of the game in a single hit. This also works really well with thrun. I saw both happen at states yesterday. Was on the receiving end of the inkmoth kill unfortunetly.
about 25%, and there isn't too many things quite as satisfying as having 2 piles sitting in front of your opponent when all they had was lands, and they have to choose one colour or the other
Agreed. It doesn't happen to often but when it does its huge. She is worth a good amount of money and after states I think people will start to understand why she is so good.
I think a lot of people are missing the SB selection as well. Doran has white and Jund has red. 12 post is gone but there are lists with tron that are very good. I have played against them and they are legit. Jund has Groves/Fire plus huge misers. Blood Moon anyone? It beats quite a few decks all by itself. Tron, 12 post, zoo variants, doran, and even the mirror.
Terminate, in addition to maelstrom pulse gives us plenty of hard removal plus burn for much better reach. Path may be better and cheaper but a hand full of paths against a control deck won't seal up the game. Grove/Fire can practically drive them nuts with inevitability. Hard removal plus recurable burn is pretty hard to pass up.
Discard in the form of blightning. While I agree it isn't at its best against aggro decks it is still very powerful to play. Doran can thoughtsieze control twice and there upset but blightning them twice can practically win the game by itself against almost any deck.
Card advantage. Doran can play 0/3s and bob but we get punishing fire, bob, quality and quantity hand disruption, cascade, and life gain. I think I'll stick with my jund list. Its way more versitile and has way more reach and outs to the field.
I agree but jund can draw into them easier because of Dark Confidant and the cascade mechanic.
-Thoughseize
-Inquisition
-Blightning
-Thorn of Amethyst
-Liliana for discard and against reanimator combo decks that put a big fatty into play.
-Relic against graveyard combo
-Pulse against empty the warrens combo and pyromancer's ascession
-Torpor orb for twin decks
-Surgical extraction type cards
-Many others I'm sure
Jund's strength against combo comes from cheap effective discard in both quality and quantity that will strip an opponent of their key spells and be left to fend of a swarm of guys. A draw as simple as: T1 TS/Inq, T2 Goyf, T3 Blightning bash for 4+ damage is going to put a big bump in the road.
This doesn't include jund's ability to just assume the aggro role and bash a way to victory via damage. Jund can goldfish some reletively fast kills and this is assuming the combo player will have every card they need everytime you play. While jund doesnt need as sculpted of a hand. In short, jund is just fine against combo.
Or Blood Moon.
If it sucks so much then you won't mind it staying on the ban list then, hmm?
Claw of Gix is the other piece. Which gains life which is good against aggro. Pay 1: draw 3, gain a life is cool. It was in a storm deck from a while back. Turn 1 or 2 empty the warrens for 12+ guys beats just about any deck. The deck its self is missing some parts but most of it is intact. I think rite of flame is the only big card missing. I would replace it with the new get 3 mana for 2 mana card. Can't remember its name. I don't know if this is the route the OP was going though.
Haha, almost all of the decks are control. Even a combo deck. People cry far too much about the so called "zoo menace".
You'd be better off with Hatching Plans I think. It was in an old storm deck for cheap draw plus storm count.
You can't be serious. Am I the only person who thinks of visions on turn 1. Leaves suspend draws 3. And last I hear its cost was no cost but for CMC situations is considered 0. Snapcaster being in the format with it makes it way to good. Visions should stay banned unless snapcaster goes. Bitterblossom is a griefing card just like Jitte. If punishing fire gets banned and bitterblossom gets unbanned, expecially with visions, we will plummet back into the 99% fae era again, no thanks. Jace should stay banned too. Why bring back that trauma we had and not to long ago either. Modern is a format where midrange actually has a chance. Jace is at his best feasting on midrange decks that are to slow to kill him and not controlling enough to protect themselves against him. Not ot mention your talking about restoring fae to full power with jace too, no way.
Unbanning is the correct answer here. Maybe ban a few more cards but unbanning certain cards would realy help. Mental Mistep is one. I don't think this card was to good in modern. In legacy it is but modern, no. Turn 1 nactle is much more manageble. Chrome mox is another card worth considering possibly. That's about it. I like the current format, I think its awesome. Not much needs to change in my opinion.
I have to agree. Am I really in a conversation where people think zoo is to good. The default go to deck in an unknown format. Ban a 3/3 for 1 mana? What planet am I on? Sounds to me like Chapin and a bunch of blue players are crying that control isn't the best deck. The format right now is awesome. Are you all seriously in a funk that you will complain that you can't beat zoo. Zoo never stays on top forever. This is way to premature. Zoo is very beatable. The fact that your mad that you can beat 3/3s and 2/3 for 1 mana with your turn 1 island is a bit silly. I have got to have a 60+ percent win aggainst zoo minimum. Is beating zoo really that hard?
It was for fun but in standard right now:
Guy I know: Plays a sword of feast and famine. Equips his snapcaster mage and bashes through a thrun. Untaps and re-equips to another guy. he's at 10. Passes turn.
Opponent: Draws a land and plays it. Has thrun, wolfrun, and 12 land. Passes turn!
Guy: Swords him again. opponent has thrun, titan, and garruk in hand. Discards garruk, lol. Re-equips to other guy and passes.
Opponent: Draws a land and plays it. Looks and thrun. Looks at wolfrun. Passes turn!
Guy: Swords his opponent. He discards titan! Passes and says, "good game?"
Opponent: *scoops*.
Friend of Mine: K resolves
Next turn
Opponent: Kodama of the North Tree. "Does it resolve, I know you want to counter it?"
Friend: "Nah bra, get your verb on."
Me+Audience: ......
Random guy: Plays stuffy doll on opponent.
His opponent: K, *gives him a dumb look* Takes his turn and plays some guys. Passes.
Random Guy: What are you at? (13) Attacks all in. Opponent blocks and takes no damage.
His opponent: "Take nothing, return fire kill you?"
Random Guy: "Mainphase two, Shivan Meteor my Stuffy Doll."
Opponent: RAGES!!! Then gets dq'ed later for collusion. Hahahaha.
Right now though it has to be bash with inkmoth nexus, give it plus 234324/ plus 0, trample, and infect your opponent right out of the game in a single hit. This also works really well with thrun. I saw both happen at states yesterday. Was on the receiving end of the inkmoth kill unfortunetly.
Agreed. It doesn't happen to often but when it does its huge. She is worth a good amount of money and after states I think people will start to understand why she is so good.
Terminate, in addition to maelstrom pulse gives us plenty of hard removal plus burn for much better reach. Path may be better and cheaper but a hand full of paths against a control deck won't seal up the game. Grove/Fire can practically drive them nuts with inevitability. Hard removal plus recurable burn is pretty hard to pass up.
Discard in the form of blightning. While I agree it isn't at its best against aggro decks it is still very powerful to play. Doran can thoughtsieze control twice and there upset but blightning them twice can practically win the game by itself against almost any deck.
Card advantage. Doran can play 0/3s and bob but we get punishing fire, bob, quality and quantity hand disruption, cascade, and life gain. I think I'll stick with my jund list. Its way more versitile and has way more reach and outs to the field.