Tough call. I'm actually torn on what to do here, because the opponent has a full grip and without pact he knows he's dead to any in-hand removal spell.
If he doesn't have pact, he might just be playing to his outs: hoping that you over commit to a gargadon that he can kill once he untaps. Even if he doesn't have the removal, he's likely going to make you show if you have a bound in silence, as that is valuable information for games 2 and 3. I briefly considered that perhaps hiding elspeth offered some tactical value, but after consideration, I think there's less ways for him to play around elspeth games 2 and 3 than bound in silence. Even if he had one less life, where fetching bound in silence was all that was required to secure the kill, I still think playing elspeth and jumping gargadon would be correct.
If he has pact, the game isn't unwinnable either. He can swing at elspeth for 3; it's probably right to let her take down to 2. If he's got a land, he would to have drawn a 3 drop in one of 3 draw steps (moderately likely), but blightspeaker doesn't put immediate pressure on elspeth if that's his best follow up. You also have a healthy life total to give you more time to draw lands.
If you play around pact completely, he still has the chance to get ahead by using pact to get damage in on elspeth. There's also a decent chance he has a 2nd bound in silence (for gargadon), as he so quickly used one on the kithkin.
Actually, yeah, I'd say he's playing to his out of searching up bound in silence for Gargadon. Don't give him the chance.
Would be more useful if you calculated from Ebay buyout prices for completed listings. Dealer sell prices are much less relevant IMO.
If a card is worth $10, a dealer will buy it for 6-7 and sell it for 13-14. That's their markup, but $10 is what it will go for on Ebay on average and $13 is not a useful price.
Also a couple of minor fixes:
- A specific mythic is 1 in 121, not 1 in 120
- A specific rare is 2 in 121, not the slightly different number you had
- Uncommons cannot be ignored in this set (there are a lot of $5+ ones and just over three Kicthen Finks will be opened for each Cryptic Commamd). Commons probably can be ignored.
- We don't know anything about foil distribution so far. Foil commons in this set will have value in a way they have not since a long time ago (back when Mercadian Masques was in print, when foil bulk commons were still $2-3).
And finally, MM will have minimal impact on demand for reprinted cards but significant impact on supply. That means lower prices. The jury is still out as to how significant this impact will be, but expect the following:
- MM mythics that were previously rare to drop slightly
- MM rares that were previously rare to drop hard. Cryptic Command was 1 in 80 packs in Lorwyn, now it's 1 in 60.5
- MM rares that aren't Spike cards to drop like a piano drops from a roof. Doubling Season, Tooth and Nail, etc - only Spikes will open this set and so suddenly a LOT of people will have unwanted Doubling Seasons and Tooth and Nail and the like in their trade binders.
- MM uncommons that were hard to find to drop hardest of all. Finks, Path, etc.
These factors (especially the last two) will make the EV drop a lot.
Definitely agree with what you have to say here. Although TCG player low prices are close-ish to ebay buyout prices and would definitely be a more acceptable benchmark.
Another couple random notable factors (unsure how much these will really affect prices):
- Some cards are getting new art.
- Several cards from TSP block are getting their first printing with a "regular" frame - they previously had only been available in one of the "shifted" variants.
- And lastly, several cards have updated oracle text (for example, I'm eying a Foil Path to Exile for my cube as I want both a foil and the "exile target creature" text).
Too many removal spells that directly destroy planeswalkers now. I would ignore every ultimate you see on planeswalkers. They are being costed to 4-5 turns before they can go off giving your opponent too much time to find an answer or even ping for 1 damage. Ultimate is not why you play planeswalkers.
In regards to Ral, I agree, you can't count on his ultimate activating. But it is a powerful threat: two extra turns could slam the door on a game. Also, Ral's +1 interacts quite well with his ultimate, as the permanents you tap will remain locked down through your extra turns. If you are holding a 2nd Ral, and ultimate your first when he hits 7, then you cast the 2nd and start tapping their team, it's hard to imagine a scenario where you don't win before they get another turn.
Key was banned because of the things it interacted with not because of itself. It was also printed at a time when there where multiple things for it abuse. Even after it was banned the cards it interacted with continued to see play.
Ral does not have that. There is nothing to really abuse with his untap. On top of that it has to be within U/R where Voltaic could be played by any deck.
True, there's no absurd single target, but there's something to be said for the versatility that can come from untapping anything. Another mana is nothing to scoff at the turns he'll be hitting the board. KageHamusuta went a little overboard in listing interactions as some of those effects aren't really seeing play or are very mana intensive. I think Izzet Staticaster has the most to gain, as doubling the damage is a substantial upgrade to a card that was already seeing play.
Just throwing out there that Ral interacts positively with Contaminated Ground.
Contaminated Ground is something that I've had my eye on, because of how it can interfere with checklands. On the play, turn 1 Rakdos Cackler or Diregraf Ghoul or Gravecrawler into Contaminated Ground always seemed like it would be really good. But Contaminated Ground isn't Sinkhole, as some decks would be able to pay the life until they drew out of it. Additionally, for Sinkhole to be good enough, you either have to blow up all their lands, or use the bought time to kill them.
But Ral Zarek can tap the land, forcing the life loss. On paper, it seems like a powerful synergy, both making up for Ground's primary drawback (having little effect late game) AND it allows Ral to apply pressure with his +1. I think an aggressive Izzet+Rakdos+Dimir deck could use both cards in tandem to make some powerful plays.
The difference between Tinker and Rector is that the bomb targets are playable in multiple decks. Without an Academy Rector in my deck, I don't think I'd play Form of the Dragon or Debtors' Knell in much of anything.
It's all very cube-dependent, but Form and Knell are both cards that are capable of being control finishers as well as Rector targets.
It's not something I bought up on this card, but I think it is a valid argument. I understand what you're saying about the fact he's a specific roleplayer, but there are other cards the control or combo deck wants at 4 CMC, including sweepers and PWs, and many of these effects may need to be played as soon as possible to get their full effect. I know he still fulfills a specfic role and that should play a role in considering the card, but the CMC still needs to be taken into account when constructing your deck and manabase. Even for specific roleplayers. I don't want a hand full of 4 CMC cards regardless of their jobs.
Of course I'd be happy to remove a 3 or 5 drop (or even 1 or 2 or 6) for this guy, but I'd be happier to cut a like-for-like mana wise to ensure you get don't 4 CMC saturation in your drafts. Many people's 4 CMC slots are already chock full with strong cards and that makes cuts in that area difficult.
If Rector is going to get me an enchantment that puts me WAY ahead, then I'd probably want to run it out there before anything else. It could block for a PW that comes down on the following turn, or trigger off of the wrath that's coming.
I definitely think that cube design should be mindful of mana costs, making sure that decks have options to build smooth mana curves. But Rector's easy mana cost means any drafter who wants him can pick him up and splash white, meaning he's not always competing for the same space as other "white four drops."
This is largely cube dependent, on how powerful of a target he's getting. If the cube has targets that are likely going to win the game, then Rector's a combo piece and isn't competing against other 4-mana spells. But if your cube just has "average" targets like Oblivion Ring and nothing abusive, then yes, it's time to start comparing Rector vs. your other 4-drop options.
I just added Yawgmoth's Bargain back, trying to get better Rector targets, but this thread has made me think that maybe I should just get rid of Rector..
Well it's hard to say if you should or shouldn't - there are three primary considerations: 1) How good are enchantments in your cube? 1a)How good is the enchantment removal in your cube? 2) How many enchantments do you have in your cube? 2a) Are there any substitutions you could make of a roughly equal power level that would give the rector added utility? 3) How powerful do you want Rector to be, in relation to the rest of your cube?
I guess that last question is the most relevant. Rector is ripe for abuse; he's both a tutor and puts the card directly into play, which saves you mana. Similar to Tinker, he's only as good as his potential targets. So in a non-powered cube where you are trying to encourage creature combat and a back-and-forth play, Rector wouldn't be appropriate if there were targets like Knell or Form. But in that same theoretical cube, Rector is fine if the best targets are Mind Control, Faith's Fetters, Oblivion Ring, etc.
Ultimately, I think the unique effect, the splashable mana cost, the potential power level, and the dies trigger (forcing interaction with your opponent or another enabler) all work to make the card interesting and fun. I'd recommend to any designer they run this guy, and just tinker with the power of the available enchantments until it's just right.
Just to be clear: The set contains guildgates, so the set cannot technically be be "all multicolor." However, I definitely agree that this strong evidence of mostly multicolor.
RTR and GTC featured 28 cards per color, 14 gold cards per guild (except Selesnya which has 13 + Grove of the Guardian), 3 hybrid per guild (and at least half of the hybrid cards are easily playable in a deck that only runs 1 of it's colors).
Additionally, gold and hybrid cards feature a higher ratio at rare and mythic rare, which leads to a lower number of multicolor cards per pack. The only caveat is that most of the gold cards are on average, better than the monocolor cards; there are very few unplayable/fringe use only multicolor cards, where there are more filler/unplayables in monocolor cards.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, that the first two sets in RTR block seem poised to support a 3rd set of mostly (possibly all except the nonbasic land slot in the booster) harder-to-cast multicolor cards.
We are tinkering with the idea about giving people the ability to "burn" a pick by taking a face down card in the center. This would help to unlock the center and not just taking a useless card if the board is currently dead to you. We haven't decided about it yet though.
Another possibility: deal out quilt face down. Turn face up each card with any edge exposed, and continue to do so as cards are drafted. Seems like a good compromise that retains some of the strategy of drafting, but avoids information overload.
Will definitely try out quilting next time I 1v1 cube.
I hate this card. So much. So so so so so so much.
When it works, it's fairly costed (RR for 3 to a guy and to the face? Sits somewhere between a printable instant or a printable sorcery.) When it's the opponent's turn, it's garbage. When you don't have a land on your turn, it's garbage. When you don't have RR, it's garbage. It's BCS is to be somewhat more efficient than an easier to cast burn spell, on your turn only.
RR isn't an extremely tough cost, it just means it isn't splashable. There's plenty of splashable burn already present, so having one that rewards a base-red drafter doesn't seem like a problem. Peasant has less sexy fetch options, but BrownDog does have some, so it's not out of the question that you could get full value on the opponent's turn. And if you know you've got searing blaze as a potential top-deck, you can probably hold back a land in the late game.
Yes, there can be scenarios where searing blaze ends up being a blank. But it's not hard to set up the BCS: they need a creature with 3 or less toughness, you need to play a land and spend RR.
Battle Screech and a bunch of other cards are in the mail, in the process of expanding to 450. Cube has been playing well still. The biggest issue so far has been Planeswalkers are hard to interact with, particularly when backed up with sweepers. Because there are limited options for spells that deal with them, we are going to experiment with house rules that allow them to be dealt with: our best idea (that we still need to test) is that all Planeswalkers are also creatures that can't attack or block. The spirit of the rule is that they can be destroyed as easily as creatures, but the spells that protect or reanimate creatures will also apply to them. For the most part, I think that the technical rules of Magic can handle most situations that would arise in my cube with only 2 additional caveats: Damage dealt to a planeswalker only ever results in removing loyalty, and their P/T is equal to current loyalty (or starting loyalty when not in play). Our intent would be to make rulings in line with the stated spirit in mind.
Hopefully this will work out as well as I think it will; if so, Elspeth, Knight Errant can be unbanned. I hope after next week I can post a full update at 450, with finalized rules.
This is one of those cards that I'd recommend taking the marker to it. Its unique enough that you can't really substitute anything else for it, but bad enough that its inclusion in most cubes would be detrimental. If you are ok with altering cards, this would be in my top 5 choices of where to do it.
Have you played with an errata'd version? To me I see 3 candidates to "fix" the +1:
Draw, then Discard
Discard, if you do, then draw
Discard, then draw (allowing you to just draw 1 with no cards in hand).
I'm trying to figure out if the 3rd would be too powerful for most cubes (I'm thinking so), and I'm leaning towards the second as it falls in line with current red looting.
If he doesn't have pact, he might just be playing to his outs: hoping that you over commit to a gargadon that he can kill once he untaps. Even if he doesn't have the removal, he's likely going to make you show if you have a bound in silence, as that is valuable information for games 2 and 3. I briefly considered that perhaps hiding elspeth offered some tactical value, but after consideration, I think there's less ways for him to play around elspeth games 2 and 3 than bound in silence. Even if he had one less life, where fetching bound in silence was all that was required to secure the kill, I still think playing elspeth and jumping gargadon would be correct.
If he has pact, the game isn't unwinnable either. He can swing at elspeth for 3; it's probably right to let her take down to 2. If he's got a land, he would to have drawn a 3 drop in one of 3 draw steps (moderately likely), but blightspeaker doesn't put immediate pressure on elspeth if that's his best follow up. You also have a healthy life total to give you more time to draw lands.
If you play around pact completely, he still has the chance to get ahead by using pact to get damage in on elspeth. There's also a decent chance he has a 2nd bound in silence (for gargadon), as he so quickly used one on the kithkin.
Actually, yeah, I'd say he's playing to his out of searching up bound in silence for Gargadon. Don't give him the chance.
Definitely agree with what you have to say here. Although TCG player low prices are close-ish to ebay buyout prices and would definitely be a more acceptable benchmark.
Another couple random notable factors (unsure how much these will really affect prices):
- Some cards are getting new art.
- Several cards from TSP block are getting their first printing with a "regular" frame - they previously had only been available in one of the "shifted" variants.
- And lastly, several cards have updated oracle text (for example, I'm eying a Foil Path to Exile for my cube as I want both a foil and the "exile target creature" text).
True, there's no absurd single target, but there's something to be said for the versatility that can come from untapping anything. Another mana is nothing to scoff at the turns he'll be hitting the board. KageHamusuta went a little overboard in listing interactions as some of those effects aren't really seeing play or are very mana intensive. I think Izzet Staticaster has the most to gain, as doubling the damage is a substantial upgrade to a card that was already seeing play.
Contaminated Ground is something that I've had my eye on, because of how it can interfere with checklands. On the play, turn 1 Rakdos Cackler or Diregraf Ghoul or Gravecrawler into Contaminated Ground always seemed like it would be really good. But Contaminated Ground isn't Sinkhole, as some decks would be able to pay the life until they drew out of it. Additionally, for Sinkhole to be good enough, you either have to blow up all their lands, or use the bought time to kill them.
But Ral Zarek can tap the land, forcing the life loss. On paper, it seems like a powerful synergy, both making up for Ground's primary drawback (having little effect late game) AND it allows Ral to apply pressure with his +1. I think an aggressive Izzet+Rakdos+Dimir deck could use both cards in tandem to make some powerful plays.
It's all very cube-dependent, but Form and Knell are both cards that are capable of being control finishers as well as Rector targets.
If Rector is going to get me an enchantment that puts me WAY ahead, then I'd probably want to run it out there before anything else. It could block for a PW that comes down on the following turn, or trigger off of the wrath that's coming.
I definitely think that cube design should be mindful of mana costs, making sure that decks have options to build smooth mana curves. But Rector's easy mana cost means any drafter who wants him can pick him up and splash white, meaning he's not always competing for the same space as other "white four drops."
This is largely cube dependent, on how powerful of a target he's getting. If the cube has targets that are likely going to win the game, then Rector's a combo piece and isn't competing against other 4-mana spells. But if your cube just has "average" targets like Oblivion Ring and nothing abusive, then yes, it's time to start comparing Rector vs. your other 4-drop options.
Well it's hard to say if you should or shouldn't - there are three primary considerations: 1) How good are enchantments in your cube? 1a)How good is the enchantment removal in your cube? 2) How many enchantments do you have in your cube? 2a) Are there any substitutions you could make of a roughly equal power level that would give the rector added utility? 3) How powerful do you want Rector to be, in relation to the rest of your cube?
I guess that last question is the most relevant. Rector is ripe for abuse; he's both a tutor and puts the card directly into play, which saves you mana. Similar to Tinker, he's only as good as his potential targets. So in a non-powered cube where you are trying to encourage creature combat and a back-and-forth play, Rector wouldn't be appropriate if there were targets like Knell or Form. But in that same theoretical cube, Rector is fine if the best targets are Mind Control, Faith's Fetters, Oblivion Ring, etc.
Ultimately, I think the unique effect, the splashable mana cost, the potential power level, and the dies trigger (forcing interaction with your opponent or another enabler) all work to make the card interesting and fun. I'd recommend to any designer they run this guy, and just tinker with the power of the available enchantments until it's just right.
RTR and GTC featured 28 cards per color, 14 gold cards per guild (except Selesnya which has 13 + Grove of the Guardian), 3 hybrid per guild (and at least half of the hybrid cards are easily playable in a deck that only runs 1 of it's colors).
Additionally, gold and hybrid cards feature a higher ratio at rare and mythic rare, which leads to a lower number of multicolor cards per pack. The only caveat is that most of the gold cards are on average, better than the monocolor cards; there are very few unplayable/fringe use only multicolor cards, where there are more filler/unplayables in monocolor cards.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, that the first two sets in RTR block seem poised to support a 3rd set of mostly (possibly all except the nonbasic land slot in the booster) harder-to-cast multicolor cards.
Do you mean 20 per player per quilt? Out of the 80 card quilt or the 64?
Another possibility: deal out quilt face down. Turn face up each card with any edge exposed, and continue to do so as cards are drafted. Seems like a good compromise that retains some of the strategy of drafting, but avoids information overload.
Will definitely try out quilting next time I 1v1 cube.
That's probably true, but the discussion here is targeted at the one specific (mis)printing of Orcish Oriflamme. What are your thoughts on it?
RR isn't an extremely tough cost, it just means it isn't splashable. There's plenty of splashable burn already present, so having one that rewards a base-red drafter doesn't seem like a problem. Peasant has less sexy fetch options, but BrownDog does have some, so it's not out of the question that you could get full value on the opponent's turn. And if you know you've got searing blaze as a potential top-deck, you can probably hold back a land in the late game.
Yes, there can be scenarios where searing blaze ends up being a blank. But it's not hard to set up the BCS: they need a creature with 3 or less toughness, you need to play a land and spend RR.
Hopefully this will work out as well as I think it will; if so, Elspeth, Knight Errant can be unbanned. I hope after next week I can post a full update at 450, with finalized rules.
Have you played with an errata'd version? To me I see 3 candidates to "fix" the +1:
Draw, then Discard
Discard, if you do, then draw
Discard, then draw (allowing you to just draw 1 with no cards in hand).
I'm trying to figure out if the 3rd would be too powerful for most cubes (I'm thinking so), and I'm leaning towards the second as it falls in line with current red looting.