I like that last list, but I wonder if it wouldn't be faster with ravager and disciple in place of the master and lightning bolt. disciple probably will deal more than 3 damage, and he attacks too. and ravager combos with him, and comes down a turn faster. He also eats all your crappy guys that are dying in blocks and crap, as well as extra mox opals.
Also, post side, removal may prove to be an issue, but ravager helps that as well.
I disagree with cutting the thoughtseize or the sinkholes. Both are good cards. I do think that the numbers should be switched a little, however.
I think 3 sinkhole should be enough, leaving you with 11 potential land destruction spells.
And I really like doran. I agree that 1 could probably be cut, but I like him so much because he costs the same as knight, but if you drop him early, he is still huge. And if the opponent brings in grave hate, he is your only threat that isn't affected.
I am also a firm advocator for deed. I love that card, and deed @ 2 with threats on the board is back-breaking. I bet you could squeeze 2 in there somewhere. Maybe something like:
-1 doran
-1 sinkhole
+2 deed
And I agree with fitting as many canopies as possible. That could give you an edge in kotr wars as well as the other benefits. Like:
-1 bayou
-1 bog
and maybe -1 g/w fetch
for 3 canopies. THe deck looks awesome, And I hope you keep toying with it.
I think that either hierarch or birds could be added to the main. And the main-board bojuka bog seems out of place, because removing their lands makes terravore much smaller. Another possibility is dark confidant as a 3 or 4 of. You run a pretty low curve, and confidant is probably better card advantage than hymn, and a lot easier to cast.
if you don't want to go with smaller creatures, I wonder where the deeds are at? deed at 2 can save your ass against a lot of decks while keeping most of yours alive. And if you can get to 3 mana against dredge, you can blow all their zombies tokens at instant speed.
How is inquisition? My knee-jerk reaction is to throw the card in the trash, how is it panning out for you? I would ay least run the full 4 seize over these. And I agree about the sinkholes. Eva green doesn't have knight of the reliquary to create a stream of wastes.
and armageddon looks good. perhaps in the side though? A lot of decks might not be totally obliterated by it like control, but it seems very test-worthy.
I like the black splash a lot more than the white one, because confidant is better than enlightened tutor, and seize is bomb. Plus, horror is a 2 mana 7/7 trample with stifle or mask. pretty gnarly.
I like the guilded drake a lot more than skinthinner, because it combos with mask AND stifle, and if you splash red, you can just bolt him out after stealing a goyf. I'd like to keep the number of fathom seer dowm to 2-3, because it is only fantastic under mask. the gush effect is cool, but id rather just draw 2 cards and not pay the morph cost.
red splash actually seems really viable, with bolts main and rebs in the side to prevent getting blown out by counterspells and merfolk. firespout may also be something to consider, or terminate.
Has anyone tested the B/W/G version lately? There are a few cards that seem huge additions to the deck. Namely:
Vindicate
Swords
Doran
stoneforge mystic
vindicate can hit lands and creatures, and you don't risk blowing up all your goyfs when you want to hit an opponents. And Doran seems awesome. He makes goyfs and stoneforge mystic bigger. And he is 5 power for 3 mana.
Stoneforge mystic adds card advantage and a beater in 1 card, allowing for a pretty cool toolbox. And swords is the best removal in the format. Here is a rough sketch of what I'm working towards:
So basically yeah, I don't really know what to run in the side. But it should really depend on your meta. cannonist and teeg for combo, ray of revelation and pridemage if you need enchantment hate. Deed or explosives are pretty sweet options out of the side on top of vindicate. And I'm not sure if ascetic or finks is better against aggro, only testing will tell. But on to the maindeck.
You start out with 10 must-counter huge monsters at 3 mana or less, and knight gets you wastes and horizon canopy, which pumps him as well. doran is 5 power, and he pumps goyf and mystic by 1 point, which is cool.
3 confidants keep them from being dead draws, and nothing in the deck costs more than 3. Stonforge mystic is also card advantage, letting you run a toolbox of equipment. Jitte is a given, as is a sword of fire and ice. lightning greaves keeps doran protected and lets knight do it's thing unmolested. Behemoth sledge runs over aggro and constantly pulls you out of burn range.
Vindicate is the card I think adds the most. It is creature removal and doubles as mana denial and sweeps up anything else you need to get. Brutal with Witness recursion. Awesomeness. Swords cleans up creatures as well, with #4 of each in the side, unless you need 4 of either main. With 2-3 witness, you may only need 3.
The life from the loam would be great against control decks, as you could return canopies and wastes. I'm also not sure if I want to run hierarch or birds. Birds taps for black mana, but hierarch has exalted, which means it can wield jitte solo. What does everyone think?
The only slot that is really super out-there is the last creature slot. specter costs 3, 2 of which is black, but it is a constant source of CA as long as the opponent has cards in hand. Teeg makes everything un-forceable, but you can't play explosives with him down. Not like they are for the same decks anyway. Gatekeeper costs 3 black to be removal, and that might push me towards birds rather than hierarch.
Bitterblossom carries equipment like a boss, and creates a wall of blockers, and hopefully jitte or sledge can get you some life back. Quasali pridemage is a 2 mana 3/3 attacker, and exalted is pretty sweet. His ability could definitely prove useful.
There is also troll ascetic, which seems awesome against aggro and control, but do we need more beaters? Eternal witness is looking like the best candidate to me. 3 mana 2/1 ain't bad, and you can regrowth anything. Recurring vindicates, swords, duress, wastes, or any giant creature you happen to have in the grave.
With 22 lands, I have 12 black sources, 13 green sources, and 9 white sources, not including mana dorks/vial.
A couple of cards I have thought about as well:
Unearth: returns any of your creatures to play, and cycles when it isn't necessary. pretty cool combo with eternal witness. You can return all your witness' for 1 black mana apiece, and either keep unearth to keep a wall of blockers or get something else.
Aether Vial: Since we run so many creatures, and they all cost under 3, vial could be sweet. I think I'd cut 1 birds/hierarch, maybe 1-2 lands, and maybe 1 something else. 3 mana dork 3 vial seems like a good amount of acceleration, or maybe a 4/2 split.
I agree on trying to fit duress or seize main. The only issue I'd really have with thoughtseize is trying to stick it in a doomsday pile and not having enough life to play it.
maybe -1 show and tell, -1 something else. I have been testing -1 snt +1 ponder, because I hate having to do mystical>ldv>emrakul. and ponder helps with doomsday.
you run forests, why not run a 1-of dryad arbor? it is uncounterable, and you can stick auras on it and swing in desperate situations. or canopy cover could be used, and that would make goyf and maybe kor spiritdancer playable. I think bogle is crappy anyway.
What about Glen-elandra archmage? It protects jace (twice!) and acts as an uncounterable counterspell.
Also, since you're running back to basics, stifle might be awesome. stifling the fetch for a basic could be game-winning. also, if your mana can handle it, wasteland could be awesome.
and if you're running jace, fetchlands seem like an auto include to me. if I were to do a mono-u jace list, it might be something like:
23 mana
4 waste
8 fetch
11 island
4 force of will
4 spell snare
4 stifle
3 cryptic command
3 powder keg
3 back to basics
2 shackles
4 brainstorm
3 ancestral visions
3 jace
2 glen-elandra archmage
2 clique
brainstorms seems far too good to pass up in legacy. with the shuffle effects, it becomes even better. the jace has protection in the form of a persist creature and clique, which you can hopefully surprise 187 an attacking creature and play with their hand.
Since you play u/b, spellstutter and bitterblossom could fit well into your strategy. they both carry jitte really well, and can be played turn 2 or 3.
Why not just do elves with NO combo? He was already running a bunch of mana elves anyway. That just seems to be better than running a deck without goyf.
I'm not sure which elf list would be better, aggro or combo?
This is all in regards to the trainwreck-like thread.
I bet that dark rit needs to be in this deck. turn 2 aggro wall? yes please. Just because it is a control deck doesn't mean you should give up the potential for a super-fast win. and probably should run the full 4 gamekeeper. In vintage, Oath always plays 4, except in the mirror.
I'm not super impressed with with the coffers, staffs, chainer's edict, traumatize, or drain life. It just seems like too much of an engine to set up that falls apart to wasteland, one of the most common non-basics out there.
I was thinking something like this: remove those, put in dark rit, one more gamekeeper, sinkhole (as a practical replacement for helldozer. basically a time walk),
and maybe add diabolic edict over chainer's, and smallpox over innocent blood. that way, you can sac keeper at the end of turn and start swinging on yours. Smallpox also helps the mana denial bit with the sinkhole. wasteland basically becomes necessary.
and if there is space, maybe drop 1 deed and add 2 maelstrom pulse. they are slightly faster and hit stuff like tombstalker and stuff early.
What is the plan for finding the eldrazi? Wait for it to show up under a library? I think that library says that you have to put back cards you drew that turn, so any drawn before library lands do not mean you can put it back on top.
With that said, have you tried worldly tutor? At 1 green, you can put it on top and play the land, or whatever. That would also let you cut 1 library or so, because multiple are redundant unless your paying life.
That list actually looks super-tight. There are only 2 things I might change:
I think that swords is strictly better than path in this deck. Unlike zoo, I don't need to "squeak in" the 20 damage with burn and crap. I run quality creatures. At least thats my point of view. But is 4 necessary? What do you guys think? I could really use that extra space if 3 would do it. The extra would definately be in the board.
and the second thing is the creature base. I love everything except the monk. I know he probably dominates ground stalls and is bigger than bolt, but so is knight of the reliquary, and knight aids in both mana denial and combat tricks, as well as being a huge monster. Fetching waste and a singleton sejiri step for the ultimate alpha strike on coatl would be priceless. and its not like you need to warp the deck for him, the deck already runs 8 fetch and 4 waste, that seems like enough. Would it be justifiable in cutting 1 tropical for another fetch, like catacombs? There are a dumb amount of brainstorm effects, and fecthing + brainstorm is about as close as we'll get to ancestral. plus it helps knight slightly.
Alongside those, Eternal witness just seems like the perfect card to me.
It comes out really fast ( if you need to, say, return an early bolted goyf or something) and gets super juicy later in the game. Returning any of force, brainstorm, jace, goyf, and swords could easily turn the tide of the match. plus its a (very sexy) body, and you still get a card even if she just chumps or eats removal.
At the same time, I love coatl, but sometimes you just don't want to see two in your hand. Thus far, these would be my proposed changes:
-3 war monk
-4 path to exile
-1 lorescale coatl
-1 savanah
+3-4 swords to plowshare
+2-3 knight of the reliquary
+2-3 eternal
+1 sejiri steppe
With that said, I believe that testing should prove the extra knight will be usefull in some metas, while the extra witness will be good in another. Or it could just conceivably go to the 4th swords.
As far as side boarding goes, here are some thoughts I had today.
2-3 stoneforge mystics
1-2 jitte
1 sword of fire/ice
this would be my go-to for aggro matches. since exalted will (hopefully) make your dude bigger, might as well have that one dude wielding a seriously nasty blade. sword for merfolk/goblins/ whatever, and jitte for everything else.
besides that, bojuko bog may slide into a slot. instant speed land ravenous trap with knight. what else would you consider for dredge hate, and other common matches?
The last question I pose is thus: is stifle worth it main? it really nails the mana disruption home. Along with witness recurring wastes and knight finding them, this may be the key to creating a really devastating disruption package. It may be unfeasible, though. The deck seems really tight. perhaps if knight or witness doesn't seem to be working well, maybe they can go, plus maybe 1 daze or whatever. Thanks for the feedback!
Another card that I have thought about adding is eternal witness, and hierarch would help the gg mana cost. witness could also return brainstorms, which are giant growths on crack with a coatl out.
As far as that other list goes, goyf is leagues and bounds better than dryad. I wouldn't want 8 cards that I have to grow after I played them. The reason I like coatl is that he grows on his own, and 1 brainstorm in hand is a brutal combat trick. would merchant scroll be up for consideration maybe?
Ponders and divining top are also other potential cards I've thought about adding.
Also, post side, removal may prove to be an issue, but ravager helps that as well.
I think 3 sinkhole should be enough, leaving you with 11 potential land destruction spells.
And I really like doran. I agree that 1 could probably be cut, but I like him so much because he costs the same as knight, but if you drop him early, he is still huge. And if the opponent brings in grave hate, he is your only threat that isn't affected.
I am also a firm advocator for deed. I love that card, and deed @ 2 with threats on the board is back-breaking. I bet you could squeeze 2 in there somewhere. Maybe something like:
-1 doran
-1 sinkhole
+2 deed
And I agree with fitting as many canopies as possible. That could give you an edge in kotr wars as well as the other benefits. Like:
-1 bayou
-1 bog
and maybe -1 g/w fetch
for 3 canopies. THe deck looks awesome, And I hope you keep toying with it.
if you don't want to go with smaller creatures, I wonder where the deeds are at? deed at 2 can save your ass against a lot of decks while keeping most of yours alive. And if you can get to 3 mana against dredge, you can blow all their zombies tokens at instant speed.
How is inquisition? My knee-jerk reaction is to throw the card in the trash, how is it panning out for you? I would ay least run the full 4 seize over these. And I agree about the sinkholes. Eva green doesn't have knight of the reliquary to create a stream of wastes.
and armageddon looks good. perhaps in the side though? A lot of decks might not be totally obliterated by it like control, but it seems very test-worthy.
I like the black splash a lot more than the white one, because confidant is better than enlightened tutor, and seize is bomb. Plus, horror is a 2 mana 7/7 trample with stifle or mask. pretty gnarly.
I like the guilded drake a lot more than skinthinner, because it combos with mask AND stifle, and if you splash red, you can just bolt him out after stealing a goyf. I'd like to keep the number of fathom seer dowm to 2-3, because it is only fantastic under mask. the gush effect is cool, but id rather just draw 2 cards and not pay the morph cost.
red splash actually seems really viable, with bolts main and rebs in the side to prevent getting blown out by counterspells and merfolk. firespout may also be something to consider, or terminate.
Vindicate
Swords
Doran
stoneforge mystic
vindicate can hit lands and creatures, and you don't risk blowing up all your goyfs when you want to hit an opponents. And Doran seems awesome. He makes goyfs and stoneforge mystic bigger. And he is 5 power for 3 mana.
Stoneforge mystic adds card advantage and a beater in 1 card, allowing for a pretty cool toolbox. And swords is the best removal in the format. Here is a rough sketch of what I'm working towards:
So basically yeah, I don't really know what to run in the side. But it should really depend on your meta. cannonist and teeg for combo, ray of revelation and pridemage if you need enchantment hate. Deed or explosives are pretty sweet options out of the side on top of vindicate. And I'm not sure if ascetic or finks is better against aggro, only testing will tell. But on to the maindeck.
You start out with 10 must-counter huge monsters at 3 mana or less, and knight gets you wastes and horizon canopy, which pumps him as well. doran is 5 power, and he pumps goyf and mystic by 1 point, which is cool.
3 confidants keep them from being dead draws, and nothing in the deck costs more than 3. Stonforge mystic is also card advantage, letting you run a toolbox of equipment. Jitte is a given, as is a sword of fire and ice. lightning greaves keeps doran protected and lets knight do it's thing unmolested. Behemoth sledge runs over aggro and constantly pulls you out of burn range.
Vindicate is the card I think adds the most. It is creature removal and doubles as mana denial and sweeps up anything else you need to get. Brutal with Witness recursion. Awesomeness. Swords cleans up creatures as well, with #4 of each in the side, unless you need 4 of either main. With 2-3 witness, you may only need 3.
The life from the loam would be great against control decks, as you could return canopies and wastes. I'm also not sure if I want to run hierarch or birds. Birds taps for black mana, but hierarch has exalted, which means it can wield jitte solo. What does everyone think?
The only slot that is really super out-there is the last creature slot. specter costs 3, 2 of which is black, but it is a constant source of CA as long as the opponent has cards in hand. Teeg makes everything un-forceable, but you can't play explosives with him down. Not like they are for the same decks anyway. Gatekeeper costs 3 black to be removal, and that might push me towards birds rather than hierarch.
Bitterblossom carries equipment like a boss, and creates a wall of blockers, and hopefully jitte or sledge can get you some life back. Quasali pridemage is a 2 mana 3/3 attacker, and exalted is pretty sweet. His ability could definitely prove useful.
There is also troll ascetic, which seems awesome against aggro and control, but do we need more beaters? Eternal witness is looking like the best candidate to me. 3 mana 2/1 ain't bad, and you can regrowth anything. Recurring vindicates, swords, duress, wastes, or any giant creature you happen to have in the grave.
With 22 lands, I have 12 black sources, 13 green sources, and 9 white sources, not including mana dorks/vial.
A couple of cards I have thought about as well:
Unearth: returns any of your creatures to play, and cycles when it isn't necessary. pretty cool combo with eternal witness. You can return all your witness' for 1 black mana apiece, and either keep unearth to keep a wall of blockers or get something else.
Aether Vial: Since we run so many creatures, and they all cost under 3, vial could be sweet. I think I'd cut 1 birds/hierarch, maybe 1-2 lands, and maybe 1 something else. 3 mana dork 3 vial seems like a good amount of acceleration, or maybe a 4/2 split.
What do you guys think?
maybe -1 show and tell, -1 something else. I have been testing -1 snt +1 ponder, because I hate having to do mystical>ldv>emrakul. and ponder helps with doomsday.
Also, since you're running back to basics, stifle might be awesome. stifling the fetch for a basic could be game-winning. also, if your mana can handle it, wasteland could be awesome.
and if you're running jace, fetchlands seem like an auto include to me. if I were to do a mono-u jace list, it might be something like:
23 mana
4 waste
8 fetch
11 island
4 force of will
4 spell snare
4 stifle
3 cryptic command
3 powder keg
3 back to basics
2 shackles
4 brainstorm
3 ancestral visions
3 jace
2 glen-elandra archmage
2 clique
brainstorms seems far too good to pass up in legacy. with the shuffle effects, it becomes even better. the jace has protection in the form of a persist creature and clique, which you can hopefully surprise 187 an attacking creature and play with their hand.
I'm not sure which elf list would be better, aggro or combo?
just my 2 cents.
I bet that dark rit needs to be in this deck. turn 2 aggro wall? yes please. Just because it is a control deck doesn't mean you should give up the potential for a super-fast win. and probably should run the full 4 gamekeeper. In vintage, Oath always plays 4, except in the mirror.
I'm not super impressed with with the coffers, staffs, chainer's edict, traumatize, or drain life. It just seems like too much of an engine to set up that falls apart to wasteland, one of the most common non-basics out there.
I was thinking something like this: remove those, put in dark rit, one more gamekeeper, sinkhole (as a practical replacement for helldozer. basically a time walk),
and maybe add diabolic edict over chainer's, and smallpox over innocent blood. that way, you can sac keeper at the end of turn and start swinging on yours. Smallpox also helps the mana denial bit with the sinkhole. wasteland basically becomes necessary.
and if there is space, maybe drop 1 deed and add 2 maelstrom pulse. they are slightly faster and hit stuff like tombstalker and stuff early.
With that said, have you tried worldly tutor? At 1 green, you can put it on top and play the land, or whatever. That would also let you cut 1 library or so, because multiple are redundant unless your paying life.
I think that swords is strictly better than path in this deck. Unlike zoo, I don't need to "squeak in" the 20 damage with burn and crap. I run quality creatures. At least thats my point of view. But is 4 necessary? What do you guys think? I could really use that extra space if 3 would do it. The extra would definately be in the board.
and the second thing is the creature base. I love everything except the monk. I know he probably dominates ground stalls and is bigger than bolt, but so is knight of the reliquary, and knight aids in both mana denial and combat tricks, as well as being a huge monster. Fetching waste and a singleton sejiri step for the ultimate alpha strike on coatl would be priceless. and its not like you need to warp the deck for him, the deck already runs 8 fetch and 4 waste, that seems like enough. Would it be justifiable in cutting 1 tropical for another fetch, like catacombs? There are a dumb amount of brainstorm effects, and fecthing + brainstorm is about as close as we'll get to ancestral. plus it helps knight slightly.
Alongside those, Eternal witness just seems like the perfect card to me.
It comes out really fast ( if you need to, say, return an early bolted goyf or something) and gets super juicy later in the game. Returning any of force, brainstorm, jace, goyf, and swords could easily turn the tide of the match. plus its a (very sexy) body, and you still get a card even if she just chumps or eats removal.
At the same time, I love coatl, but sometimes you just don't want to see two in your hand. Thus far, these would be my proposed changes:
-3 war monk
-4 path to exile
-1 lorescale coatl
-1 savanah
+3-4 swords to plowshare
+2-3 knight of the reliquary
+2-3 eternal
+1 sejiri steppe
With that said, I believe that testing should prove the extra knight will be usefull in some metas, while the extra witness will be good in another. Or it could just conceivably go to the 4th swords.
As far as side boarding goes, here are some thoughts I had today.
2-3 stoneforge mystics
1-2 jitte
1 sword of fire/ice
this would be my go-to for aggro matches. since exalted will (hopefully) make your dude bigger, might as well have that one dude wielding a seriously nasty blade. sword for merfolk/goblins/ whatever, and jitte for everything else.
besides that, bojuko bog may slide into a slot. instant speed land ravenous trap with knight. what else would you consider for dredge hate, and other common matches?
The last question I pose is thus: is stifle worth it main? it really nails the mana disruption home. Along with witness recurring wastes and knight finding them, this may be the key to creating a really devastating disruption package. It may be unfeasible, though. The deck seems really tight. perhaps if knight or witness doesn't seem to be working well, maybe they can go, plus maybe 1 daze or whatever. Thanks for the feedback!
As far as that other list goes, goyf is leagues and bounds better than dryad. I wouldn't want 8 cards that I have to grow after I played them. The reason I like coatl is that he grows on his own, and 1 brainstorm in hand is a brutal combat trick. would merchant scroll be up for consideration maybe?
Ponders and divining top are also other potential cards I've thought about adding.