This thread is regressing. The optimal list was made more than 20 pages back at this point. I recently made a few small changes using post states results.
nezumi to board, silklash added to deck
--> Gifts did not impress me at states. I did not see it at the top tables at all and it lost out to alot of the decks because it just couldn't find the answers. However, the decks other weak matchup WWr did fairly well depending on where it was. If WWr is going to be played more than Gifts than we should reserve a mainboard slot for it then.
Anyone who has dropped a silklash against WWr or most aggro knows its GG unless they are holding char+ helix or a putrefy.
dropped a Kokusho for another Scarab.
--> personal preference, I did this long before states anyway.
-1 Arena.
-->TotT's list was actually 61 cards. In a pm he told me he does this to throw off mill. Well seeing as mill isnt really rampant in my area, I figured this was the card to cut since its a weak four of but a godly 3 of.
Rend Flesh/Naturalize
--> I cant find the right number here. If I run the 4 rends in the main and the naturalizes in the board, I find myslef losing to silly enchantments (annex, dream leash, faith's fetters, all good form enchants, etc.) But If a switch them, I constantly lose to WWr and other aggro while holding dead cards. I Tried 2 of each in the main and in the board but I never had the card I needed. I'm quite puzzled and would appreciate imput here.
its okay, it is a powerful creature that can return from the dead, but other than that all the decks will ether, rend flesh, faith fetters, char, ect..
so its better to run something that will actually win like kokusho
other than that it depends on ur competition and what decks are around where u are
Those cards are the EXACT reason we run graveshell, becuase it recurs itself for a mill of one card.
I cant imagine ever needing to run 3-4 only because if you draw one, you never need another. I would play 2 in the main and 1 in the board to bring in versus control.
first off Id just like to share with everyone in the BG thread my 1000th post.
anyway I would like to list why banshee is better than nekrataal;
he flies
he murders black men
he is an amazing ninjitsu outlet (nin. out ink-eyes, get my mini terror back... seems fair)
blocks men against WW/r where nekratall is like hey, everyone flies here
I saw the banshee played all day, and I was never dissappointed.
I also saw the Banshee flying around the tables. I agree its good but I still prefer the old fashioned, jihad-screaming, Nekkie.
It's basically a meta and presonal preference thing:
-You say banshee blocks one WWr flier, whil nekkie stops multiple grounders
-Banshee kills hippies and nekkie kills melokus
-Ninjutso works equally as well with both of em.
So it is really just a metagame choice. Oh and congrats on 1000th post!
EDIT: As far as the Meloku argument goes: There isn't really a point to running blue. If for some reason your running BGu without gifts, your just playing bad gifts. But if on some whim you think thats better than BGw or BG then at least run some meloku's. It's easily one of the best creatures in STD if not the best.
Thats alot more like WG with a splash of B for removal like laughter and putrefy. If you want to go after a 1/3 1/3 1/3 split deck, I'd go to zoo forum and recomend B over R.
Yah Boros Swifty with a jitte can be an issue. Just hold on to a rend or a putrefy if you know your oppenent is running the aformentioned creature and remmeber to board in naturalizes.
EDIT: as far as Keening Banshee goes, unless BG aggro or MBA is an issue in your area, I would be running Nekretaal over the Banshee.
Well obv its not the same rock, there is an entirely diffrent cardpool. Call it rock or call it BGw control, please don't defile it with puns and rhyming names please. If you must call it a name, call it Rock.
Haha good to see that this thrown-together list is worthy for some people....I still think Recollect is pretty good, recurring mass kill and an extra Kokusho isn't bad if you just think about it. I may take them out at some stage oe another though. I know I need at least 3 Arenas, but I wasn't sure what to take out for them....maybe a Last Gasp? I dunno. A little help with this please.
-4 recollect, + 3 Hierarch, +1 Arena= My build from page 39.
GG.
Entirely diffrent decks, entirely diffrent ways of controlling the board and utilizing cards. The argument that one is merely a better form of the other is useless nonsense. And for the record, blues never posted any results saying gifts DOESNT have a problem with G/B control.
I too call BS or exaggeration on that decklist. If those results were half as plausible as you post them that deck is about as strong as ravager was in standard.
Randomly ranting off to things I've read in this thread.
Hideous Laughter and Kagemaro both maindeck is overkill, period end of discussion. 3 Kagemaro + 4 Last Gasp + 4 Putrefy + 4 Carven Caryatid??? Throw the Laughters in the SB as a 3 of at the most.
Bottled Closter?? wth? Phyrexian Arena is a 100 times better. WR mages are looking into it because WR has no draw and control decks NEED draw.
Vultrous Zombie pails in comparison to other creature options such as kokusho. It's a great draft card, but thats about it.
Congregation at Dawn, I apolgize for miss spell.
Okay, what is the big deal about recollect? I can see it as a decent SB option for the mirror in a 3 or 4 of in the sideboard, but I tsted with it and most of the time I was strung up with playing threats and cards off an Arena. I just don't see its usefulness in the main (even as putrefy 5-8)
I think at this point we agree that the deck must have 2-3 Graveshell Scarab. I vote 2, drawing more than one is uncessary. I reserve a third in the board for mirror and WR control though.
Loxodons are stellar, if you don't believe me, test em in my build from page 39.
Carven, while maybe not an auto inclusion in the deck, is very very strong. Great 2/5 body on a cantrip. Run it, live it, love it.
Well, going for the turn two or three GGW means no black mana which can be setting yourself up for disaster. I can see convocation being played, just not in this deck. (Turn two arena is the play ever imo)
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
Utility
4 Putrefy
4 Rend Flesh/Naturalize
3 Persecute
3 Phyrexian Arena
2 Congregation at Dawn
Creatures
3 Kokusho, the evening star
3 Kagemaro, First to suffer
3 Loxodon Hierarch
2 Grave-Shell Scarab
1 Ink-Eye's, Servant to Oni
1 Silklash Spider
5 Forest
1 Okina
5 Swamp
1 Shizo
2 Plains
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Llanowar Wastes
1 Miren, The Moaning well
4 Cranial Extraction
4 Naturalize/Rend Flesh
3 Hideous Laughter
1 Congregation at Dawn
1 Nezumi Graverobber
1 Kodama of the North Tree
1 Isao, Enlightened Bushi
Changes I made were as follows:
nezumi to board, silklash added to deck
--> Gifts did not impress me at states. I did not see it at the top tables at all and it lost out to alot of the decks because it just couldn't find the answers. However, the decks other weak matchup WWr did fairly well depending on where it was. If WWr is going to be played more than Gifts than we should reserve a mainboard slot for it then.
Anyone who has dropped a silklash against WWr or most aggro knows its GG unless they are holding char+ helix or a putrefy.
dropped a Kokusho for another Scarab.
--> personal preference, I did this long before states anyway.
-1 Arena.
-->TotT's list was actually 61 cards. In a pm he told me he does this to throw off mill. Well seeing as mill isnt really rampant in my area, I figured this was the card to cut since its a weak four of but a godly 3 of.
Rend Flesh/Naturalize
--> I cant find the right number here. If I run the 4 rends in the main and the naturalizes in the board, I find myslef losing to silly enchantments (annex, dream leash, faith's fetters, all good form enchants, etc.) But If a switch them, I constantly lose to WWr and other aggro while holding dead cards. I Tried 2 of each in the main and in the board but I never had the card I needed. I'm quite puzzled and would appreciate imput here.
Just so you know, Yosei's ability stacks on to one turn, not over the spread of turns.
if you dropped say 4 yosei, It would go as tap 20 permanents, misses next untap step, not the next 4.
Those cards are the EXACT reason we run graveshell, becuase it recurs itself for a mill of one card.
I cant imagine ever needing to run 3-4 only because if you draw one, you never need another. I would play 2 in the main and 1 in the board to bring in versus control.
I also saw the Banshee flying around the tables. I agree its good but I still prefer the old fashioned, jihad-screaming, Nekkie.
It's basically a meta and presonal preference thing:
-You say banshee blocks one WWr flier, whil nekkie stops multiple grounders
-Banshee kills hippies and nekkie kills melokus
-Ninjutso works equally as well with both of em.
So it is really just a metagame choice. Oh and congrats on 1000th post!
EDIT: As far as the Meloku argument goes: There isn't really a point to running blue. If for some reason your running BGu without gifts, your just playing bad gifts. But if on some whim you think thats better than BGw or BG then at least run some meloku's. It's easily one of the best creatures in STD if not the best.
Yah Boros Swifty with a jitte can be an issue. Just hold on to a rend or a putrefy if you know your oppenent is running the aformentioned creature and remmeber to board in naturalizes.
EDIT: as far as Keening Banshee goes, unless BG aggro or MBA is an issue in your area, I would be running Nekretaal over the Banshee.
-4 recollect, + 3 Hierarch, +1 Arena= My build from page 39.
GG.
Gifts =/= Rock
Gifts =/= better G/B control
Entirely diffrent decks, entirely diffrent ways of controlling the board and utilizing cards. The argument that one is merely a better form of the other is useless nonsense. And for the record, blues never posted any results saying gifts DOESNT have a problem with G/B control.
Game log please.
Hideous Laughter and Kagemaro both maindeck is overkill, period end of discussion. 3 Kagemaro + 4 Last Gasp + 4 Putrefy + 4 Carven Caryatid??? Throw the Laughters in the SB as a 3 of at the most.
Bottled Closter?? wth? Phyrexian Arena is a 100 times better. WR mages are looking into it because WR has no draw and control decks NEED draw.
Vultrous Zombie pails in comparison to other creature options such as kokusho. It's a great draft card, but thats about it.
Congregation at Dawn, I apolgize for miss spell.
Okay, what is the big deal about recollect? I can see it as a decent SB option for the mirror in a 3 or 4 of in the sideboard, but I tsted with it and most of the time I was strung up with playing threats and cards off an Arena. I just don't see its usefulness in the main (even as putrefy 5-8)
I think at this point we agree that the deck must have 2-3 Graveshell Scarab. I vote 2, drawing more than one is uncessary. I reserve a third in the board for mirror and WR control though.
Loxodons are stellar, if you don't believe me, test em in my build from page 39.
Carven, while maybe not an auto inclusion in the deck, is very very strong. Great 2/5 body on a cantrip. Run it, live it, love it.