Turning_of_the_Tide, I actually tried convocation at dawn. It had a few problems, namely adding more W to the deck for a search card. It was strong but I honestly feel in this deck Phyrexian Arena does a 5 times better job and is on color. However I do like your eye for certain cards that could be used later down the road.
4 Loxodons is a bit much, if anything else his off color casting cost. I don't even think orginal rock ran 4 baloth.
Kagemaro is certanily worth it even without draw. Normally it pops for 2-4 making it a strong beat/bluff card. The bigger it gets, the less your opponent wants to drop creatures knowing they will only get swept away. But if they don't you beat face with a growing piece of fat.
Anyway, use phyrexian arena. It makes kagemaro even better and is certianly worth the slot.
But why would you only want to draw extra lands? plus Arena Draws a card reguardless of what it is for 1 life which is easily offset by loxodons, kokusho, and miren. You don't need a janky two card combo to do the job worse than one card my friend. (I say janky because it is exceptionally easy to kill a 2/1 creature plus there are 4 shuffle effects in the deck, there needs to be 8+ to yield consideration for a top)
I know everyone is not on board with Carven Caryatid. That's perfectly fine, feel free to run Hypnotic Specter, Golgari Brownscale, or any other 3cc tech card. Keep in mind the mission statement of Rock decks is stall, destroy, drop fat. Wall of Blossoms, Carven, Troll Ascetic, or w/e has always been used to fill that particular spot. To me, Carven is worth the slot. If it isn't t you, that list runs just as fine with hippie.
As far as Loxodon, it is pretty necessary. Look at that list and tell me what else could possibly go in that 3 of creature slot.
Time for a new list to freshen the thread up. Me and a good friend of mine were dead set on BG before the spoiler was even closed to finished. Our orginal build was like psuedo aggro with Loxodon Warhamer and the what not. But we have since evolved into what we have today.
I've been trying to make a list that does not use Plague Boiler or Gleancrawler simply because the former is just terrible and the latter doesn't excell enough in what it does to yeild inclusion.
However I do think the Loxodon is worth the inclusion of a Plains to run, he quite literally pulls the entire list together and I have yet to have a serious problem getting the white mana for him.
I agree on the skeleton of the deck so I won't explain any of those card choices.
Phyrexian Arena - if you haven't testing this card your missing out on the best draw engine we have to offer. This is easily your best turn two play, and it rarely gets destroyed game one.
Last Gasp - I'm fairly set on this, I dont see the need to run 8 3cc guranteed kill spells, 4 Putrefy for the fat, 4 Gasp for the utility, seems even. Edict in this format is terrible as Edict will rarely ever hit anything over 4 toughness and if it does you are extremely lucky.
Carven Caryatid - I'm pretty sure ever one agrees these are nearly better than wall of blossoms which is a rock staple. They are cantrip beasts.
Loxodon Hierarch - Baloth 2, that should be enough to yeild usage. 4/4 + 4 life for 2WG and a regen all creatures ability? Hell yah.
The sideboard is still undertesting because the format is still shaping up. Only cards I'm positive on are the 4 Naturalize and 3 Cranial Extractions . Feel free to change all others liberally.
That is it. Feel free to chop, salvage and what not you want from this list. I however feel its quite good.
I've tested 4 Hideous laughter and 4 terror/rend flesh instead of the 4 Barter and decays, Barter and decays just work the best. Barter drops Pristine angels, sloggers, opposing Kokushos, etc. Normally, If T&N tooths, I'm up **** creak. If they titan/kiki you won't even have 4 mana left to barter most of the time.
Okay, okay. My build is old I know. I've tried to revamp it some, and I have redistrubuted the land so it is almost even.
I dropped the tops and moved the trolls to the board. Exchanged the Molder Slugs for Kagemaro, the Troll Ascestics for Virdian Shamans.
Land (23):
10 Forests
1 Okina
9 Swamps
1 Shizo
2 Tendo/City of Brass
Creatures (19):
4 Kokusho
3 Kagemaro, First to Suffer
4 Eternal Witness
4 Virdian Shaman
4 Sakura Tribe Elder
Win:
3 Death cloud
3 Plow Under
Creature Kill/ Land Search:
4 Kodama's Reach
4 Barter in Blood
4 Echoing Decay
Sorry, fixed the problem. It was late when i made the post and I apologize for the typo, for some reason i put 16 forests instead of 12, land count is 22.
Okay, Okay, I've read about 60% of this thread so I basically know what is going on. First off, the build that has been doing greatly in MTGO for me.
Lands:(22) my bad
12 Forest
6 Swamp
1 Okina
1 Shizo
2 Tendo Ice Bridge
Creatures (in order of fat):
4 Kokusho, the Evening Star
3 Molder Slug
3 Troll Ascetic
4 Eternal Witness
4 Sakura Tribe-Elder
Spells (win):
3 Death Cloud
3 Plowunder
Tech:
4 Echoing Decay
4 Barter in Blood
4 Kodama's Reach
2 Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 4 Cranial
SB: 4 Terror
SB: 3 Night of Souls Betrayal
SB: 3 Naturalize
SB: 1 Troll Ascetic
Few small tidbits about the card choices:
1. I use molderslug main. No kaegmaro or w/e, no plaguelord, no any other fat. Molder Slug trashes all of the major artifacts being used by almost every competive deck in the format, most namely equipment. If the slug wasn't a great answer to al these things i would gladly use plaugelord followed by first to suffer in the slot.
2. I use 4 Barters and 4 Decays as my main creature kill base. If you have ever tested with 4 Barters, you would know here is no equal in creature kill in type 2 right now, drops sloggers, trolls, every peice of fat there is no matter what the P/T or color. Decays are in over terror and rend for a few reasons. mainly because they hit everything. most medium to small tech creatures die to this, and it drops ride lands and meloku/beacon tokens like no tommorrow. And reguardless of how rare they may be, mono black control/aggro decks are still out there, and being able to kill shortfangs, etc. is very important.
3. I use 4 dragons. Dur he is 5/5 flying consume spirit for 4BB, why not use 4?
4. No cranials main. Until the meta game settles, you can't choose an accurate target for the first one in alot of matches, so it becomes restricted to the board.
5. I use 3 Plows. Simply no room for number 4, if I had one more space it would go to the 4th plow.
6. I use 3 Nosb in my board. SB is always up to the meta. I've built my deck to able to use this card with very minimal consequences. It trashes mono G Aggro and any other aggro build out there. Nuff said.
(7ish) I use Naturalize in my board. Eh, if it were up to me I would use 3 pithing needles, but until everyone figures out they are way over hyped and they disinflate, I can't afford them. Really they are only for naming shackles and jitte/sword.
Cards I don't use:
Birds of Paradise: Not worth the space, die to early decay, jitte, shock/jet and throw off your ability to judge opening hands(ex. your hand consists of forest,birds,DC, black dragon, witness, Kodama's reach, and top, your looking at a good hand assuming you rip land 2 in the first couple turns, however your turn one birds gets shocked, now your boned)
Plaugelord: I like him in this deck, sadly I have absolutely no room, the Slug is to important to drop.
Equipment: messes up my Slug's meal time and the deck only uses 18 creatures, this is GB control, not aggro.
City of Brass: I find Tendo much less painful, I've never had to use it for color more than once
Genju of the Cedars: No denying its amazing post cloud power, but no room, I suppose Troll could be swapped for it, but troll makes many matchups better so I wouldnt drop him.
That sums it up, If you want to critize go ahead, I test this deck everyday about 4 hours a day because it is MTGO. I know my mono U matchup is weak but I rarely see mono U. Lastely, the mana base of GB is very sensitive, don't change it.
Well if the Red one could target players, it could be costed at 4 but since it doesnt, it should only be costed at 2-3.
Black one is really good mainly in limited, and possibly in MBC if there are good enough arcane spells.
Mainly i'm just curious to find out what the Green and Blues alternate costs/effect will be.
If had To speculate I'll say the Blue is an overcosted bad Gush, and the green will be saccing creatures for pump?
With the red shoal, Toshi, magma jet, barter in blood, etc. I can really see BR control deck on the horizon. Definately if we get some really good red/black instant in BoK.
Kagemaro is certanily worth it even without draw. Normally it pops for 2-4 making it a strong beat/bluff card. The bigger it gets, the less your opponent wants to drop creatures knowing they will only get swept away. But if they don't you beat face with a growing piece of fat.
Anyway, use phyrexian arena. It makes kagemaro even better and is certianly worth the slot.
As far as Loxodon, it is pretty necessary. Look at that list and tell me what else could possibly go in that 3 of creature slot.
4 Llanowar Wastes
4 Overgrown Tomb
5 Forest
1 Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
6 Swamp
1 Shizo, Death’s Storehouse
1 Plains
1 Miren, the Moaning Well
Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Sakura-Tribe elder
4 Carven Caryatid
3 Kokusho, the Evening Star
3 Kagemaro, First to Suffer
2 Grave-shell Scarab
3 Loxodon Hierarch
4 Last Gasp
4 Putrefy
3 Phyrexian Arena
3 Persecute
4 Naturalize
3 Cranial Extraction
3 Pithing Needle
2 Hideous Laughter
2 Ink-eyes, Servant of Oni
1 Grave-Shell Scarab
I've been trying to make a list that does not use Plague Boiler or Gleancrawler simply because the former is just terrible and the latter doesn't excell enough in what it does to yeild inclusion.
However I do think the Loxodon is worth the inclusion of a Plains to run, he quite literally pulls the entire list together and I have yet to have a serious problem getting the white mana for him.
I agree on the skeleton of the deck so I won't explain any of those card choices.
Phyrexian Arena - if you haven't testing this card your missing out on the best draw engine we have to offer. This is easily your best turn two play, and it rarely gets destroyed game one.
Last Gasp - I'm fairly set on this, I dont see the need to run 8 3cc guranteed kill spells, 4 Putrefy for the fat, 4 Gasp for the utility, seems even. Edict in this format is terrible as Edict will rarely ever hit anything over 4 toughness and if it does you are extremely lucky.
Carven Caryatid - I'm pretty sure ever one agrees these are nearly better than wall of blossoms which is a rock staple. They are cantrip beasts.
Loxodon Hierarch - Baloth 2, that should be enough to yeild usage. 4/4 + 4 life for 2WG and a regen all creatures ability? Hell yah.
The sideboard is still undertesting because the format is still shaping up. Only cards I'm positive on are the 4 Naturalize and 3 Cranial Extractions . Feel free to change all others liberally.
That is it. Feel free to chop, salvage and what not you want from this list. I however feel its quite good.
I dropped the tops and moved the trolls to the board. Exchanged the Molder Slugs for Kagemaro, the Troll Ascestics for Virdian Shamans.
Land (23):
10 Forests
1 Okina
9 Swamps
1 Shizo
2 Tendo/City of Brass
Creatures (19):
4 Kokusho
3 Kagemaro, First to Suffer
4 Eternal Witness
4 Virdian Shaman
4 Sakura Tribe Elder
Win:
3 Death cloud
3 Plow Under
Creature Kill/ Land Search:
4 Kodama's Reach
4 Barter in Blood
4 Echoing Decay
SB: 4 Cranial Extraction
SB: 4 Naturalize
SB: 3 Boseiju/Defense Grid
SB: 2 Troll Ascetic (?)
SB: 2 Eradicate
Still open to all suggestions.
Lands:(22) my bad
12 Forest
6 Swamp
1 Okina
1 Shizo
2 Tendo Ice Bridge
Creatures (in order of fat):
4 Kokusho, the Evening Star
3 Molder Slug
3 Troll Ascetic
4 Eternal Witness
4 Sakura Tribe-Elder
Spells (win):
3 Death Cloud
3 Plowunder
Tech:
4 Echoing Decay
4 Barter in Blood
4 Kodama's Reach
2 Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 4 Cranial
SB: 4 Terror
SB: 3 Night of Souls Betrayal
SB: 3 Naturalize
SB: 1 Troll Ascetic
Few small tidbits about the card choices:
1. I use molderslug main. No kaegmaro or w/e, no plaguelord, no any other fat. Molder Slug trashes all of the major artifacts being used by almost every competive deck in the format, most namely equipment. If the slug wasn't a great answer to al these things i would gladly use plaugelord followed by first to suffer in the slot.
2. I use 4 Barters and 4 Decays as my main creature kill base. If you have ever tested with 4 Barters, you would know here is no equal in creature kill in type 2 right now, drops sloggers, trolls, every peice of fat there is no matter what the P/T or color. Decays are in over terror and rend for a few reasons. mainly because they hit everything. most medium to small tech creatures die to this, and it drops ride lands and meloku/beacon tokens like no tommorrow. And reguardless of how rare they may be, mono black control/aggro decks are still out there, and being able to kill shortfangs, etc. is very important.
3. I use 4 dragons. Dur he is 5/5 flying consume spirit for 4BB, why not use 4?
4. No cranials main. Until the meta game settles, you can't choose an accurate target for the first one in alot of matches, so it becomes restricted to the board.
5. I use 3 Plows. Simply no room for number 4, if I had one more space it would go to the 4th plow.
6. I use 3 Nosb in my board. SB is always up to the meta. I've built my deck to able to use this card with very minimal consequences. It trashes mono G Aggro and any other aggro build out there. Nuff said.
(7ish) I use Naturalize in my board. Eh, if it were up to me I would use 3 pithing needles, but until everyone figures out they are way over hyped and they disinflate, I can't afford them. Really they are only for naming shackles and jitte/sword.
Cards I don't use:
Birds of Paradise: Not worth the space, die to early decay, jitte, shock/jet and throw off your ability to judge opening hands(ex. your hand consists of forest,birds,DC, black dragon, witness, Kodama's reach, and top, your looking at a good hand assuming you rip land 2 in the first couple turns, however your turn one birds gets shocked, now your boned)
Plaugelord: I like him in this deck, sadly I have absolutely no room, the Slug is to important to drop.
Equipment: messes up my Slug's meal time and the deck only uses 18 creatures, this is GB control, not aggro.
City of Brass: I find Tendo much less painful, I've never had to use it for color more than once
Genju of the Cedars: No denying its amazing post cloud power, but no room, I suppose Troll could be swapped for it, but troll makes many matchups better so I wouldnt drop him.
That sums it up, If you want to critize go ahead, I test this deck everyday about 4 hours a day because it is MTGO. I know my mono U matchup is weak but I rarely see mono U. Lastely, the mana base of GB is very sensitive, don't change it.
MTGO user name: Remedy2Destruction
Also, my primers are looooong, normally about 5 pages in word, PM me if you want me to submit them.
oh well back to the daily grind.
I don't see any strong Limited potentcy, nor any Constructed use...
But here's to being the optimist and saying it will still be used somehow!
Black one is really good mainly in limited, and possibly in MBC if there are good enough arcane spells.
Mainly i'm just curious to find out what the Green and Blues alternate costs/effect will be.
If had To speculate I'll say the Blue is an overcosted bad Gush, and the green will be saccing creatures for pump?
<3 Toshi!