Raw numbers don't matter at all. Only how many of the actually relevant stuff it can't kill does. And while you did a good resume of some of the spells - still the competitive data shows that Victim of Night isn't that good of a removal spell. I mean how many people have you actually seen playing it? And how many of those did something relevant like winning a GP, GPT, PTQ or something similar do that? Numbers also talk after all.
I only used Victim of Night because OP had specifically called it out as an example of how black's current removal is worthless. However, if you want tournament numbers, there are much better arguments to prove against his point. The topic, as a reminder, was:
Quote from "Yoshimitsu" »
What proactive mechanics should they be looking to expand into black to make it a playable color again (since it really hasn't been since Fae, IIRC)...
Name one piece of removal that black has gotten in the last 15 months as good as doom blade...
They won't be printing something [as powerful as] Doom Blade or Inquisition of Kozilek in the foreseeable future.
At the recent SCG 5k in Indianapolis, half of the Top 8 decks played black. The following black removal spells were in Top 8 decklists:
7 Abrupt Decay
3 Murder
10 Tragic Slip
1 Ultimate Price
4 Dreadbore
2 Sever the Bloodline
1 Dead Weight
2 Devour Flesh
That's 32 black kill spells in one Top 8!
So when this many black removal spells are in the Top 8 the largest ever SCG event, I think we can safely say that black is far from unplayable in this format. I think it's readily apparent that there are LOTS of viable black kill spells, and that many of them are highly effective.
I don't think it's remotely true to say that black is non-viable.
Victim of Night is far from being a Doom Blade (is it that hard to notice that Victim of Night has far more restrictions than Doom Blade, and has a more intensive mana cost?), and Duress far from being a IoK.
Victim of Night kills more creatures than Doom Blade in Standard. There are exactly 128 creatures immune to Victim of Night, while 165 are immune to Doom Blade. Victim is a stronger effect. Yes it [slightly] costs more, but it has to because it is stronger. If you want a card that is both stronger *and* costs the same, you'll never find it. Why? Because they attempt to balance the game, and any additional strength needs to come at some price.
Yeah, Victim can't kill Messenger, Falkenrath Aristocrat, Olivia, Lotleth Troll, Nighthawk, or Huntmaster. But Doom Blade could only kill one of those anyway! Nor could Doom Blade kill Deathrite Shaman, Cartel Aristocrat, or Obzedat (all of whom are fairly important)!
You don't really want a card "as strong as Doom Blade". You want Doom Blade. But they always mix things up to keep the environment fluid. The removal out there hits just as much as Doom Blade, but they change the restriction every once in a while. It makes you have to change up your deck, and your play style a bit.
Years ago, during Top 8 matches Judges used to do what was called Table Judging. They would sit at the table and take all responsibility for the game state. The tracked life totals. They marked land drops and cards drawn. They kept track of everything. But mistakes *still* happened. Things would still get missed. Why? Because this is a complex game with a lot of things happening, and a ton of variables you're keeping in mind. Things get lost.
It wasn't working, so the policy was discontinued a long time ago.
wait isn't a judge obligated to stop the game if he sees a game state violation? (legendary rule being forgotten by both players, for example).
Yes, they are *if they happen to see it*. If they see or are alerted to a mistake, they will step in and address it. But their actual job is fix and address mistakes once something has gone wrong, not to be scrutinizing every play in every match to watch for those mistakes.
Judges will try to watch games for errors when they can, but that is actually judges going beyond what is called for by policy as a bonus service to players. It's a service that tends to be extended whenever possible, but ultimately it isn't actually the judge's responsibility. It is the players'. A judge watching does not absolve those players of their responsibility, nor transfer that responsibility to himself.
I guess if I could state what I want in one coherent word, even though I would like to see multiple things happen, it is deterrence. I don't want to worry so much about whether my opponent is cheating and be required to watch his every move so closely; I want to focus more on the content of the game. I don't want to seriously contemplate whether the game of magic in general has a large amount of cheaters, because that makes the game discouraging. It is wishful thinking, I know.
If there are stronger penalties, people won't be tempted to cheat.
If people/judges just noticed more often, people won't be tempted to cheat.
So, both of those things are a means towards that end.
Originally, Magic tournament policy was all about deterrence. They generally assumed that any mistake might be covering for cheating, and dealt with it harshly.
Drew 7 on your mulligan? YOU LOSE!
Sleeves worn? YOU LOSE!
Forgot to register one of the cards in your deck? DISQUALIFIED!
And yet cheating still occurred back then. Deterrence doesn't really work with what people are suggesting happened. You don't go into a tournament thinking "Man, if I make the finals then I will SO make two land drops." No, things like that are a cheat of opportunity. Someone sees a moment of opportunity and takes it before they really think through what they are doing. They don't sit there and weigh the pros and cons, they just take what they think they can get unnoticed.
And the truth is, 95% of all cheats probably fit in that category. Deterrence will not prevent those. It will only impact the remaining few that plan out their cheats ahead of time, and even then only those that aren't so confident as to assume they'll always get away with it.
The real impact of deterrence-heavy policy is on the non-cheaters. The people that actually do just make a mistake. Real mistakes outnumber cheats by a vast margin. But when you set up your penalties assuming cheats, you throw these people under the bus. You start handing out Game Losses for dexterity mistakes and lapses of concentration. You start putting too much focus on technically precise play instead of about playing a game. The tournament environment becomes hostile and uninviting, and generally just less fun.
We've been there before. It didn't work then. There's no reason to think it will work now.
I already gave you my answer. I would put the blame where it belongs and take the DCI or whoever to court. I'd make such a big stink over it that it would be on every MtG related web site on the Internet. It might even make the news.
You have no clue what judges are even there for. Let me be perfectly clear:
No judge is EVER responsible for the game state. Ever.
Keeping the game state correct is solely on the shoulders of the *players* in that match. This is clearly defined in the Magic Tournament Rules:
Quote from "Excerpt from Player Responsibilities in MTR" »
• Maintaining a clear and legal game state.
• Bringing to a judge’s attention any rules or policy infraction they notice in their matches.
A judge is responsible for appropriately addressing any rules violations that are brought to their attention; the *players* are the ones responsible for noticing it in the first place. Judges will step in if they happen to see something, but they are NOT there to put a microscope to every match like a football referee.
Stagnation is and will always be a major threat to the game. Having good hosers around makes sure that there can never really be one dominant strategy. If there ever is, then these sort of cards will help rein them in.
Richard Garfield addressed this in an article back in 1994:
Quote from "Richard Garfield" »
The original plan was to include cards that thwarted every obvious simple strategy, and, in time, to add new cards which would defeat the most current ploys and keep the strategic environment dynamic.
Some sports/leagues add extra officials during playoffs and in the NFL the booth referee calls reviews only during the final 2 minutes. It's not automatically a bad thing just because the extra high standard of officiating isn't applied at all times.
Magic already does this, moreso than any sport. For example, at an average GP, there are maybe 50 judges on staff for a 1200 player event. Of those, maybe 30 are on the floor taking calls/watching matches during the first several rounds. That equates to about one judge per 40 players. But in the Top 8, we have 2-4 judges on hand for 8 players. At the Feature Match area, we have 1 dedicated judge for 4-8 players. We make judges much more available at critical junctures.
However, you still can't catch everything. To continue your analogy, they don't in sports, either. Look at just some of the critical blown calls happening "on camera" in this year's playoffs alone:
In a single-elimination Wild Card game, a MLB referee wrongly applied the Infield Fly Rule to declare a player out on a play that would have otherwise loaded the bases and presented a major scoring opportunity.
In Game 2 of the 2012 ALCS, despite having playoff officiating staffing, a runner was wrongly called safe when he was tagged out, which extended an inning long enough for 2 more runs to score.
In the 4th quarter of this year's Outback Bowl, officials pulled out the chains to measure a 4th down play after a fake punt. Cameras were on hand, and the measurement showed they were short by 2 chain links. However the official called it the other way, awarding possession to the wrong team at a critical juncture.
On the final 4th Down play of this year's Super Bowl, an official missed a defensive holding call. It was a critical no-call on the final play of the most important game of the year.
It's unrealistic to assume that a rules arbiter in *any* field (judge, ref, ump) is going to catch 100% of the calls, even in the most critical situations. This has been demonstrated time and time again in every game. Sure, it would be nice if it would have been seen, but there will *always* be missed calls.
Most PTQs require venue rental which can take a huge cut out of the prize pool if turnout is below expected.
If you've ever rented convention space before, you realize that it is a HUGE expense. Even a small room can easily be over $1000. I don't know the exact cost to rent the space they got. But my back of the napkin estimates are that the entry fees likely paid for the room and the staff, but that every pack of prize was given out at a loss.
When you're a player, you don't tend to notice all the other expenses that come into play at an event. For example:
PTQs doesn't cost store anything else than staff. Other costs are standard costs of running business that doesn't have anything to with PTQ (unless you really want to count 2-3$ for water and electricity.)
This couldn't be much further from the truth. When you go to a store that has play-space for 200 people, it's not so they can host weekly drafts or FNM. They purchase that extra space so they can use it at select big events (such as PTQs) each year. They could have made do with a quarter the play space and saved several hundred dollars a month on rent, but they don't just so they can host these events. So obviously that extra cost *is* directly attributable to the PTQ, and it *does* cost the store a LOT of money.
I'd like to see a new land that is templated so that you can add mana to your mana pool that is not part of your general's identity and have it not become colorless.
It's not a land, but have you met my friend Celestial Dawn? It pretty much does what you want.
The common ones aren't legendary though, so you'd have to figure out a way to get them to die while the shuffle trigger is on the stack... Not that you couldn't just win with 2 extra turns and 198 common eldrazi
Mirror Entity. He can make sure all of your Eldrazi die, and he *is* an Eldrazi so you can play him with Spawnsire.
I'm sorry, but the premises this article is written on are incorrect. I wanted to go through a couple of the key reasons.
At an FNM where a lot of new players exist: those players may not know they are making errors, but may be questioning certain game states. I've questioned myself a time or two. If we create a hostile environment, those players become reluctant to seeking out the correct answers. What happens when they do? They get slapped with a punishment. I know that I am being overdramatic. I realize we have lesser punishments at those levels. It is great. However, there is no difference between seeking out that information versus an opponent calling a player out on their mistake.
This paragraph could not be any more wrong. Simply put, there are no punishments at FNM. Unless you show up to cheat, you are not getting a penalty. The problem, is that this article was written by reading the wrong document. The Magic Infraction Procedure Guide ONLY applies to Competitive Rules Enforcement Level [REL] events (such as PTQs, GPs, and many events with significant prizes). At Regular REL events, which comprise the vast majority of events including FNM, the Judging at Regular document is used. Here is an excerpt:
While it is important that players are trying to play correctly, it is also important they know that when something goes wrong, calling a Judge is the best course of action – you will do your best to fix the situation.
If you read that document, you will see that the focus is on education and on fixing the situation to the best of ones ability. There are only two ways to even earn a punishment of any sort at such an event: 1) Cheat (which can NEVER happen unintentionally) or 2) Keep making the same illegal play over and over and over. That's it. So there is no disincentive for a player to call a judge. The worst that will happen is that the mistake will be fixed and explained, and everyone will continue.
So the only time the main premise is remotely applicable is at Competitive events.
However, even then I don't agree. The downgrade clause encourages players to call a judge on their own mistakes. As you pointed out, it takes what would be a game loss, and reduces it to just a warning. However the article was treating Warnings like they are something to be afraid of. They aren't. It takes repeated infractions of the same offense at the same event before a warning means anything. It's just a way of letting the player know of their mistake without any actual penalty being applied, and pointing out that they should pay more attention in the future.
People shouldn't be afraid of a warning. Definitely not so much that they aren't willing to call a judge.
The correct fix wasn't used at a REL Professional event. That bothers me.
It seems counter-intuitive, but deviation happens much more at Professional events than at Competitive ones. The reason is because they have the highest level judges with the strongest understanding of policy and of the philosophy that guides it. They have a better understanding of *why* the policy is written the way it is, and thus are more than qualified to weigh the detriment of deviation to the benefit of undoing the damage to the game state.
Again, you're citing the mythics that bombed which is just as easily countered by the mythics that are high-priced such as Wurmcoil, Vampire Nocturnus, Emrakul, etc.
There is no "etc", those are the only 3 big ones (Hero was close, but is nowhere near Sword and Inkmoth). There have been 13 mythic prerelease cards, and only those 3 were even remotely close to being the marquee card in their set, and that was not true of Wurmcoil until over a year after it's release (well after the "pack-opening period").
My argument is against people are saying the price of Standard would explode and people would quit because they can't afford the cards. All because prerelease cards aren't Mythics anymore. I think that claim is absurd, and I addressed it. Someone saying "hey, less than 25% of the time, a single top card would have been more expensive!" doesn't really invalidate that. After all, one card being more expensive doesn't mean you can't afford Standard, it means you can't afford that one card. Even Wurmcoil Engine, the colorless finisher that any deck could play only appears in 20% of T8 decks (and almost exclusively as a 2-of or less), so it couldn't have been pricing people out of standard, even if its price went up.
I also addressed people saying this is a cash-grab by WotC. It would only possibly increase pack sales if the card in question were the chase card for the set; after all, you don't crack packs and hope to get a mediocre card. They *very* seldom were the chase cards. Yes, on a very small percentage of occasions it was, but that wasn't the norm. It's not a very good cash-grab if only the outliers apply.
Even from the value standpoint, Mayor of Avabruck (the Rare PR card) is worth more than 5 of the 13 Mythic PR promos. It's below average, but not a bad accomplishment for being down a rarity. So it's not like there's no value to be found with Rares.
I would agree with the assertion that Mythics in Duel Decks have the same problem. It's also a Straw Man with no bearing on any of my actual assertions. The fact that WotC has made other mistakes with Mythics doesn't mean they should continue to do so elsewhere. However the FtV and Premium Decks are fine places to showcase Mythics. Those are both limited run series collecting outstanding cards that attempt to present them as such. Those two series put the cards they feature on a pedestal, and reinforce the image that these are special. They also don't appear in high enough numbers to flood the market, unlike PR promos which are fairly ubiquitous.
Him making the claim "mythic card prices will be the same" is a theory that has no evidence to support this claim since this goes against the existing knowledge, rules and application of supply and demand.
My claim that card prices go up when there are far less of them than available has been proven numerous times throughout Magic's existence
The problem is that people are saying Mythic prices are going to be much higher because supply of Mythics is going down. Except in reality, the supply of *one* Mythic per set is going down. So I fail to see how it could *possibly* increase the price of anything except that *one* card.
Unless that card also happened to be the best Mythic in the set, then it's not going to be a major motivation to open packs. Most PR promos are mediocre Mythics, which then become crap Mythics because of the lack of scarcity. They aren't the "chase card" that people would be cracking packs for. No one would have cracked packs for Comet Storm, since Jace would have still been the big gun. For the past 5 Mythic prerelease cards, if they doubled in cost they would still not be the most expensive Mythic in their set. Wurmcoil Engine would have, but not during the first year it was around. It didn't reach a sufficiently high price until this past October. So from WotC's perspective, I don't see this increasing packs sold in the slightest.
What it does do from WotC's perspective is help keep it so that more Mythic Rares still seem special. When the one of the primary differentiating characteristics of a card is that it is scarce and hard to get, handing out thousands for free kinda erodes that. They basically went to a bunch of effort to make these cards stand out and feel exceptional, and then kicked one of them to the curb by giving them away to everyone. The card they made into a promo ceased to be special, cool, and exclusive, and became just another Rare. It defeats the entire purpose of it being Mythic in the first place.
Yes, there may be people that feel they get less value now that they don't get a Mythic, but I think they're just wrong. After all, how much extra value did you get from your Comet Storm? Glissa? Bloodlord? Malfegor? Overbeing? Baloths? Most PR promos settled in the $2 range. Not exactly the height of value.
At the recent SCG 5k in Indianapolis, half of the Top 8 decks played black. The following black removal spells were in Top 8 decklists:
7 Abrupt Decay
3 Murder
10 Tragic Slip
1 Ultimate Price
4 Dreadbore
2 Sever the Bloodline
1 Dead Weight
2 Devour Flesh
That's 32 black kill spells in one Top 8!
So when this many black removal spells are in the Top 8 the largest ever SCG event, I think we can safely say that black is far from unplayable in this format. I think it's readily apparent that there are LOTS of viable black kill spells, and that many of them are highly effective.
I don't think it's remotely true to say that black is non-viable.
Yeah, Victim can't kill Messenger, Falkenrath Aristocrat, Olivia, Lotleth Troll, Nighthawk, or Huntmaster. But Doom Blade could only kill one of those anyway! Nor could Doom Blade kill Deathrite Shaman, Cartel Aristocrat, or Obzedat (all of whom are fairly important)!
You don't really want a card "as strong as Doom Blade". You want Doom Blade. But they always mix things up to keep the environment fluid. The removal out there hits just as much as Doom Blade, but they change the restriction every once in a while. It makes you have to change up your deck, and your play style a bit.
It wasn't working, so the policy was discontinued a long time ago.
Judges will try to watch games for errors when they can, but that is actually judges going beyond what is called for by policy as a bonus service to players. It's a service that tends to be extended whenever possible, but ultimately it isn't actually the judge's responsibility. It is the players'. A judge watching does not absolve those players of their responsibility, nor transfer that responsibility to himself.
Drew 7 on your mulligan? YOU LOSE!
Sleeves worn? YOU LOSE!
Forgot to register one of the cards in your deck? DISQUALIFIED!
And yet cheating still occurred back then. Deterrence doesn't really work with what people are suggesting happened. You don't go into a tournament thinking "Man, if I make the finals then I will SO make two land drops." No, things like that are a cheat of opportunity. Someone sees a moment of opportunity and takes it before they really think through what they are doing. They don't sit there and weigh the pros and cons, they just take what they think they can get unnoticed.
And the truth is, 95% of all cheats probably fit in that category. Deterrence will not prevent those. It will only impact the remaining few that plan out their cheats ahead of time, and even then only those that aren't so confident as to assume they'll always get away with it.
The real impact of deterrence-heavy policy is on the non-cheaters. The people that actually do just make a mistake. Real mistakes outnumber cheats by a vast margin. But when you set up your penalties assuming cheats, you throw these people under the bus. You start handing out Game Losses for dexterity mistakes and lapses of concentration. You start putting too much focus on technically precise play instead of about playing a game. The tournament environment becomes hostile and uninviting, and generally just less fun.
We've been there before. It didn't work then. There's no reason to think it will work now.
No judge is EVER responsible for the game state. Ever.
Keeping the game state correct is solely on the shoulders of the *players* in that match. This is clearly defined in the Magic Tournament Rules:
A judge is responsible for appropriately addressing any rules violations that are brought to their attention; the *players* are the ones responsible for noticing it in the first place. Judges will step in if they happen to see something, but they are NOT there to put a microscope to every match like a football referee.
Richard Garfield addressed this in an article back in 1994:
Magic already does this, moreso than any sport. For example, at an average GP, there are maybe 50 judges on staff for a 1200 player event. Of those, maybe 30 are on the floor taking calls/watching matches during the first several rounds. That equates to about one judge per 40 players. But in the Top 8, we have 2-4 judges on hand for 8 players. At the Feature Match area, we have 1 dedicated judge for 4-8 players. We make judges much more available at critical junctures.
However, you still can't catch everything. To continue your analogy, they don't in sports, either. Look at just some of the critical blown calls happening "on camera" in this year's playoffs alone:
It's unrealistic to assume that a rules arbiter in *any* field (judge, ref, ump) is going to catch 100% of the calls, even in the most critical situations. This has been demonstrated time and time again in every game. Sure, it would be nice if it would have been seen, but there will *always* be missed calls.
If you've ever rented convention space before, you realize that it is a HUGE expense. Even a small room can easily be over $1000. I don't know the exact cost to rent the space they got. But my back of the napkin estimates are that the entry fees likely paid for the room and the staff, but that every pack of prize was given out at a loss.
When you're a player, you don't tend to notice all the other expenses that come into play at an event. For example:
This couldn't be much further from the truth. When you go to a store that has play-space for 200 people, it's not so they can host weekly drafts or FNM. They purchase that extra space so they can use it at select big events (such as PTQs) each year. They could have made do with a quarter the play space and saved several hundred dollars a month on rent, but they don't just so they can host these events. So obviously that extra cost *is* directly attributable to the PTQ, and it *does* cost the store a LOT of money.
This paragraph could not be any more wrong. Simply put, there are no punishments at FNM. Unless you show up to cheat, you are not getting a penalty. The problem, is that this article was written by reading the wrong document. The Magic Infraction Procedure Guide ONLY applies to Competitive Rules Enforcement Level [REL] events (such as PTQs, GPs, and many events with significant prizes). At Regular REL events, which comprise the vast majority of events including FNM, the Judging at Regular document is used. Here is an excerpt:
If you read that document, you will see that the focus is on education and on fixing the situation to the best of ones ability. There are only two ways to even earn a punishment of any sort at such an event: 1) Cheat (which can NEVER happen unintentionally) or 2) Keep making the same illegal play over and over and over. That's it. So there is no disincentive for a player to call a judge. The worst that will happen is that the mistake will be fixed and explained, and everyone will continue.
So the only time the main premise is remotely applicable is at Competitive events.
However, even then I don't agree. The downgrade clause encourages players to call a judge on their own mistakes. As you pointed out, it takes what would be a game loss, and reduces it to just a warning. However the article was treating Warnings like they are something to be afraid of. They aren't. It takes repeated infractions of the same offense at the same event before a warning means anything. It's just a way of letting the player know of their mistake without any actual penalty being applied, and pointing out that they should pay more attention in the future.
People shouldn't be afraid of a warning. Definitely not so much that they aren't willing to call a judge.
It seems counter-intuitive, but deviation happens much more at Professional events than at Competitive ones. The reason is because they have the highest level judges with the strongest understanding of policy and of the philosophy that guides it. They have a better understanding of *why* the policy is written the way it is, and thus are more than qualified to weigh the detriment of deviation to the benefit of undoing the damage to the game state.
My argument is against people are saying the price of Standard would explode and people would quit because they can't afford the cards. All because prerelease cards aren't Mythics anymore. I think that claim is absurd, and I addressed it. Someone saying "hey, less than 25% of the time, a single top card would have been more expensive!" doesn't really invalidate that. After all, one card being more expensive doesn't mean you can't afford Standard, it means you can't afford that one card. Even Wurmcoil Engine, the colorless finisher that any deck could play only appears in 20% of T8 decks (and almost exclusively as a 2-of or less), so it couldn't have been pricing people out of standard, even if its price went up.
I also addressed people saying this is a cash-grab by WotC. It would only possibly increase pack sales if the card in question were the chase card for the set; after all, you don't crack packs and hope to get a mediocre card. They *very* seldom were the chase cards. Yes, on a very small percentage of occasions it was, but that wasn't the norm. It's not a very good cash-grab if only the outliers apply.
Even from the value standpoint, Mayor of Avabruck (the Rare PR card) is worth more than 5 of the 13 Mythic PR promos. It's below average, but not a bad accomplishment for being down a rarity. So it's not like there's no value to be found with Rares.
I would agree with the assertion that Mythics in Duel Decks have the same problem. It's also a Straw Man with no bearing on any of my actual assertions. The fact that WotC has made other mistakes with Mythics doesn't mean they should continue to do so elsewhere. However the FtV and Premium Decks are fine places to showcase Mythics. Those are both limited run series collecting outstanding cards that attempt to present them as such. Those two series put the cards they feature on a pedestal, and reinforce the image that these are special. They also don't appear in high enough numbers to flood the market, unlike PR promos which are fairly ubiquitous.
The problem is that people are saying Mythic prices are going to be much higher because supply of Mythics is going down. Except in reality, the supply of *one* Mythic per set is going down. So I fail to see how it could *possibly* increase the price of anything except that *one* card.
Unless that card also happened to be the best Mythic in the set, then it's not going to be a major motivation to open packs. Most PR promos are mediocre Mythics, which then become crap Mythics because of the lack of scarcity. They aren't the "chase card" that people would be cracking packs for. No one would have cracked packs for Comet Storm, since Jace would have still been the big gun. For the past 5 Mythic prerelease cards, if they doubled in cost they would still not be the most expensive Mythic in their set. Wurmcoil Engine would have, but not during the first year it was around. It didn't reach a sufficiently high price until this past October. So from WotC's perspective, I don't see this increasing packs sold in the slightest.
What it does do from WotC's perspective is help keep it so that more Mythic Rares still seem special. When the one of the primary differentiating characteristics of a card is that it is scarce and hard to get, handing out thousands for free kinda erodes that. They basically went to a bunch of effort to make these cards stand out and feel exceptional, and then kicked one of them to the curb by giving them away to everyone. The card they made into a promo ceased to be special, cool, and exclusive, and became just another Rare. It defeats the entire purpose of it being Mythic in the first place.
Yes, there may be people that feel they get less value now that they don't get a Mythic, but I think they're just wrong. After all, how much extra value did you get from your Comet Storm? Glissa? Bloodlord? Malfegor? Overbeing? Baloths? Most PR promos settled in the $2 range. Not exactly the height of value.