I am a big fan of Sunken Hope in these decks, especially for anyone building on a budget. Worst case scenario, it is annoying for opponents and lets you pick up and recast Wanderer every turn. Best case, it wrecks someone's Voltron strategy.
Worst-case scenario it rebuys someone's Avenger of Zendikar or other ridiculous bomb, I can't justify it here.
Coldfire, thanks for the responses. MTG Salvation didn't indicate that you had responded so I apologize for my late reply. Any card previously discussed that isn't mentioned here most likely means I accepted your evaluation.
I think some of our differences in evaluating cards are based on you running a more combo version of Wanderer. My playgroup does not like decks that can go infinite (mana, draw, damage, ect). Some of this is semantics. Tooth and Nail and Foodchain if unanswered almost always result in wins.
I decided to put Wildfire back into the deck. I assume it has been a blockbuster card for you. Would you allow me to detail the differences in our ramp so you can advise me if I made the right call with its addition?
Side note 2: Overgrowth was in Ambivalentduck's list. It was replaced by a much superior version in Gift of Paradise.
We play the same number of lands. A sidenote question-has Sanctum of Eternity every been in the deck? It seems like a good card in theory. I haven't had a chance to play it.
I didn't add back in Devestation Tide after probably cutting it too quickly. I think the term would be "recent confirmation bias" but I am not sure. Your very positive evaluation of this card has it on my radar. Genesis Ultimatum is the cut. I have only cascaded into this card. I will cut it if it proves too difficult to cast from hand.
Will Kenrith is very intriguing. I want to add some additional ways of removing/neutralizing Opposition Agent. Did your playgroup also ban Opposition Agent when they banned Jeweled Lotus? Is there any argument for playing Teferi, Master of Time over Will Kenrith?
Time Stretch in a deck that doesn't go infinite is really, really good. I don't play this deck a lot. But I have never failed to win after resolving this spell.
This brings me to Imoti, Celebrant of Bounty which in theory should be good for this deck. First, a five mana card that cascades has an extremely high chance of casting ramp. Perfect for what I want to be doing early game. Second, I play 22 spells besides Wanderer that are six or more mana. You are playing Spell Jack which I assume is used 90% of the time or more as just a way to get an additional cascade. Imoti does this and everything else I have just detailed without getting stuck in your hand like Spelljack.
I cut Nyxbloom Ancient after your lukewarm review of Regal Behemoth. I have never really needed a permanent that doubled (or tripled) mana. It always seemed I wanted to do something else at six or seven mana than play cards like Mana Reflection or Zendikar Resurgence.
Ramping into Wildfire early game is backbreaking for many decks, some decks will have very hard time recovering from a turn 4 Wildfire and seeing that I play a lot of artifact ramp - it happens quite often.
Cultivate is in my deck, not sure why its not in the list. I will have to update it soon anyway... (I cut Coalition Relic for it I think).
Hard disagree on side note 2 - Overgrowth ramps you for +2 while Gift of Paradise ramps for +1, I think its going to perform poorly in my meta as mono-colored decks running Strip Mine are common.
You are right about Spelljack being underwhelming, I might have to cut it after the next update. I still have doubts about Imoti but I'd love to hear more.
I think you are wrong about Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, but I plan on testing Apex Devastator anyway. I think with the sheer amount of ramp I play - playing 2 un-cascadable threats is fine.
I have added Oko, Thief of Crowns (Rowan will move to SB) to the current iteration of the deck, turning an opponent Krenko to elk must be so satisfying, I'm down!
My playgroup unfortunately did not meet since before the pandemic, but I assure you - the only ban we did was Jeweled Lotus because it's broken in many of our decks. Consecrated Sphinx is not great in my build, it doesn't win quickly nor does something immediately - failing the Terminate test, I hate the argument "Dies to doom blade" but in commander its just an invitation to kill you first (you also can't protect it from theft, reanimation, etc...).
It's very important to note that my sb is not traditional situational sb but rather an attempt to make the deck more approachable in casual matches, so its bound to change often and without good justifications ("I hate the art" is enough).
Time Stretch is just a bit win-more for me (I almost always tutor for Tooth and Nail and win the same turn with infinite mana), so its basically redundant inclusion), Capture of Jingzhou is a slam dunk for this deck - only its out of my budget for now.
Time Spiral was in and it was very explosive. The problem is that you don't want your opponents to untap after resolving it. Seasons Past failed to impress in general.
Devastation Tide is awesome, it's a pretty happy cascade as its often mana-positive, Evacuation is just a tad situational. Keep in mind the other mean decks in my meta are not very creature-heavy.
Mystic Confluence is fun, I think its generally better than say Evacuate as you get way more options and its a good cascade even on empty board.
I stopped playing Brutalizer Exarch quite a while ago, don't miss it.
Regal Behemoth plays a number of roles in this deck - it's neutral card advantage (you get to draw 1 at end step) and it also goes infinite with Palinchron, it gets the cut anyway though.
Crystal Shard is kinda junky, it never worked well for me. Even in decks designed around it.
I will soon post an updated version to Moxfield and update the OP
Cold Hellfire, thanks for importing and updating this list. Have you given any consideration to moving this decklist and discussion to Moxfield.com? It seems to be the hot spot now.
A few questions:
Ambivalentduck's list seemed to eschew interaction for ramp, draw and "bombs". It seems you have added some interaction in Will Kenrith, and Rowan Kenrith, Or is Will Kenrith used more for -2 draw and cost reduction ability? How are these two planeswalkers performing?
Carpet of Flowers needs to be in your list. A sidenote-you can use the mana it produces on your second main phase if you cast it during your first main phase. This card is not coming out of my deck.
I am very surprised to not see Consecrated Sphinx on your list. It is definitely a "bomb" that must be answered or it is game over.
Stolen Identity never seemed great to me. Has it been performing well for you?
Any thought to adding Genesis Ultimatum, Jeweled Lotus, Imoti, Celebrant of Bounty or Dockside Extortionist? I haven't played for a bit so I haven't been able to test them sufficiently. But, Dockside Extortionist has been very strong as it averages four + treasures upon etb. Jeweled Lotus is obviously a theoretical addition. My win rate when I cast a turn 4-5 Wanderer seems to be a lot higher than if the first cast comes later. Imoti, Celebrant of Bounty seems very strong for my deck as I am playing 23 (with Maestrom) six mana or more spells.
I count five extra turn spells in your list. I play seven that can be cascaded as well as Time Stretch. I have yet to lose after resolving Time Stretch. Extra turns seem so strong in this build. Any thoughts to adding more, possibly Capture of Jingzhou?
I cut Evacuation, Oblivion Stone and Devastation Tide from Ambivalentduck's list. One of those three may not have been on his list. How often do you cast Devastation Tide off of cascade? I think I would add Evacuation back between the three as it bounces all the creatures. Your deck (and mine to a lesser extent) are light on creatures.
Mystic Confluence has been a card I have had on my radar. Has it been strong for you?
Sorry for missing out on your feedback! As a note - I had difficult time with playing and updating the deck due to the pandemic.
Will Kenrith is amazing in this deck, he is a great cascade and provides great value for 6 mana. His sister Rowan Kenrith was disappointing (to the point where she might be the weakest card in the deck) and I might play Will while eschewing her.
I didn't test Uro yet but I think he is a perfect fit for this deck, 3-mana ramp, card advantage and late-game beater, with full set of fetches I think I am going to escape him fairly often. Dack Fayden was great every time (even just for 1-shot steal sol ring), Garruk is pretty good ramp piece which also protects itself, if budget is your main concern (less fetches, etc...) - cut Uro.
Carpet of Flowers is amazing in metas where blue is running rampant, if my meta ever gets bluer - it comes back right in.
Stolen Identity might get the cut for either Aurora Phoenix or Kodama of the East Tree, it will stay in the sideboard for fun reasons. It's still pretty damn strong and copying an artifact is pretty much the default mode.
Genesis Ultimatum cannot be casted consistently with my deck's mana base, we play lots of colorless ramp with the intent to reach 8 as fast as possible.
Jeweled Lotus is at its best in this deck, I would 100% play it. Our group chose to ban it and I agree with this decision.
Imoti, Celebrant of Bounty seems like win-more, giving your best spells more juice does not impress me at all.
Creature
1 Dragonlord's Servant
1 Dragonspeaker Shaman
1 Silumgar, the Drifting Death
1 Dragonlord Silumgar
1 Taigam, Ojutai Master
1 Scion of the Ur-Dragon
1 Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
1 Bladewing the Risen
1 Scourge of Valkas
1 Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury
1 Dragon Broodmother
1 Scalelord Reckoner
1 Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
1 Dromoka, the Eternal
1 Ojutai, Soul of Winter
1 Deathbringer Regent
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
1 Keiga, the Tide Star
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Dromar, the Banisher
1 Teneb, the Harvester
1 Crosis, the Purger
1 Utvara Hellkite
1 Atarka, World Render
1 Dragonlord Kolaghan
1 O-Kagachi, Vengeful Kami
1 Lathliss, Dragon Queen
1 Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
Enchantment
1 Mirari's Wake
1 Mana Reflection
1 Crucible of Fire
1 Warstorm Surge
1 Temur Ascendancy
1 Dragon Tempest
1 Doubling Season
1 Kindred Discovery
Sideboard
1 Eternal Witness
1 Conspiracy
1 Leyline of Vitality
1 Palace Siege
1 Ward of Bones
1 Swiftfoot Boots
1 Heroes' Podium
1 Dragon's Hoard
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Time Spiral
1 Triumph of the Hordes
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Fortunate Few
1 Nicol Bolas, the Arisen
I have a number of questions -
1. Why do you play the cost-reducing creatures over traditional ramp? You play so much non-dragon spells and they seem of small impact. I'd much rather play a source of colored mana.
2. Dragonstorm is really out of place, you can't reach a high storm count in a reasonble turn.
3. You play 5 mass removal spells. Why?
Overall, there seem to be no focus to your list. What exactly are you trying to do?
I think the M19 Elder dragons could be given some thought. Palladia-Mors, the Ruiner is a solid body. Nicol Bolas, the Ravager is a 3 cost 4/4 flier in your deck that starts off as a 3 for 1 in multiplayer, with terrifying late game potential. Though, it is expensive to acquire right now. Vaevictis Asmadi, the Dire is a card that has been consistently impressive on its own, especially in multiplayer. It's almost like it casts Chaos Warp on each player and you choose the targets - and that's good since you're already building your deck to have a ton of permanents. It can let you transmute your tokens, utility creatures or extra lands into threats, and synergizes with reanimation and Boneyard Scourge since the creatures die and don't get shuffled.
I think Vaevictis Asmadi is much more interesting than Niv Mizzet for an easier cost. Keep in mind that it also gives you cards, just at a slower rate, and that it removes a ton of stuff as well.
Nicol bolas might be unattainable at the moment, but I think he could replace Verix Bladewing quite well.
Bolas was an oversight on my part, he should definitely go in once he rotates out.
I dislike dragons that are pure body, Palladia-Mors, the Ruiner doesn't do much for the deck, she is likely to survive and attack but she provides no value afterwards, I try not to include dumb beaters.
Verix is a defensible inclusion - he makes a decent Broodmate Dragon impression and can be played for 3.
I can't bring myself to include Vaevictis Asmadi, the Dire, he is way too risky for my tastes. Although I run a lot of permanents, I run a few "Disposable" ones and would not like to lose a 4/4 dragon token or even Boneyard Scourge for a chance at dragon (currently less then 3/10 chance) or other permanent (which is likely to be artifact ramp), Chaos Warp is mostly played in red decks which has no access to enchantment removal or big creature removal and is a very risky card (not a bad one though).
I will probably switch out Niv for Nic once he becomes available though.
My group runs a lot of artifact hate, getting my dragons earlier is important and greaves act as a lightning rod way too much, I'd rather them targeting someone else's Birthing Pod (mine is only used late-game anyway...)
Crucible was meant to be used as an ultra-late grinding mechanism with Haven of the Spirit Dragon and for card advantage with fetchlands, the problem - its too slow and really doesn't fit in, it also does nothing on its own (although if I had a dredge theme it would work pretty well). Hoard accelerates well enough and might draw a couple of cards over the course of a usual match - much better in the average case.
Bond is ok draw, temur is slightly worse (it doesn't draw on Wasitora tokens and Dragonlord Silumgar) but in return it grants all our creatures haste, while not a powerful card I'd still like to test it. Its very hard to cast though.
Swords was meant as a "Catch all" answer to creatures but is ultimately a 1-for-1 in a multiplayer format, meanwhile Spit Flame is repeatable removal to small-medium creatures and can be used to kill Krenko repeatedly.
Shaman was underwhelming, I don't run the full fetch suite so its not a reliable ramp card and the other abilites can sometimes mess up a Mimeoplasm or any number of spell-recurring cards, meanwhile Sarkhan does a lot of things for us - he can discard that all mighty Dragonlord Kolaghan for that Living Death turn. An Exciting card!
Kindred Discovery is a powerful card in this kind of deck, but ultimately its cost killed it - UU is too difficult. For that reason alone I am looking to cut Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius. Lathliss does everything this deck wants - strong with mass reanimation, a viable attacker on its own and acts as a "Mass firebreathing" enabler, a true staple.
Abrupt Decay was meant to be an answer to the all-powerful t1 Sol Ring but in multiplayer that doesn't seem as powerful as I initially thought, Vindicate deals with a lot of cards we would normally have difficulty dealing with, but is not great as its a sorcery 1-for-1 which is ultimately weak in multiplayer. The reason behind these cuts is philosophical - I'd like to be the aggressor on the table and not the control deck, the plan for this deck is still "Turn Dragons Sideways" and I hope its reflected in the list.
Orchard is great in a multiplayer setting, territory is pretty much the bottom of the barrel when it comes to rainbow lands but its good enough for a semi-budget mana base
I feel like Sarkhan Unbroken fills Niv Mizzet's role very reliably, especially with all the bombs you're dropping that can defend him. He also seems easier to cast.
I don't think he compares favorably with Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius, both are sitting at 5 CMC (for this deck's purpose)
Pros:
He is easier to cast.
He is rather versatile, ramps and draws or acts as a slow Broodmate Dragon, ult is very difficult to reach but usually means instant or near instant win.
He survives board wipes.
Cons:
Can be attacked.
Slower draw than Niv, which means slower post-wrath recovery (which is the whole point of drawing lots of cards).
Cannot act as removal (extremely relevant vs Krenko/Ephara/Mana Dorks).
it's not a simple trade off, but I think late-game Niv will be more relevant, Sarkhan Unbroken remains on my maybe list until I get to play more.
Anyway, its not the top part of the curve that bothers me, the exact nature of late-game threats is secondary, I believe the deck's mana base and ramp could be more efficient and better tuned.
Actually the only reason I removed your dragons is because I had to discard to hand size anyway.
Suggestions for fat stuff to include:
From the Kamigawa cycle, Keiga and Ryusei are very nicely splashable, with Keiga stealing a priority target like Krenko or Kaalia, and Ryusei seems like it might be an asymmetrical board wipe in your deck.
Keiga, the Tide Star is decent, however Ryusei, the Falling Star is awful, even as a asymmetrical board clear - its situational (imagine its trigger against a kaalia) and uncontrollable (rquires a sac outlet, someone can just exile it or kill it when they need a board clear.
Stormbreath dragon seems fantastic with dodging white removal and burning control decks with its monstrous ability.
If you're looking for ETB synergy, I think archwing dragon is a better pick than kolaghan.
Hellkite overlord is rather strictly costed but a really strong creature, the cost reduction helps bring it down.
I considered Stormbreath Dragon and Hellkite Overlord but they suffer form similar problem - they are only beaters, overlord is plain expansive, Stormbreath is quite impressive after discount but 7 to activate is pretty tough to pay for a bit of damage. Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury cost one more to dash then Archwing Dragon but its way more powerful - with one dragon on board it deals 4 more damage, and it has another "mode", Archwing cannot compete with such versatility.
Honestly I think that the way to go with artifact removal is to just play hellkite tyrant. That card is hilarious. Either it's removed or it wins you games. "Fair" options are hoard-smelter dragon and the horrendous but funny furnace dragon.
Also, hoarding dragon might be a good pod tutor, or rather a good tutor with pod.
Hellkite Tyrant is a risky card. It's a very strong threat but if copied/reanimated it can backfire quite easily, is it worth the risk?
I don't feel like I need more artifact removal, nor that I lack tutors, in any case I would play Enlightened Tutor long before Hoarding Dragon, if I tutor Birthing Pod and someone bounce it then pod is forever lost, so sad.
I'm very partial about mystic remora, and I think that it's more of a meta call. In uber fast combo metas where everyone is tutoring and countering and playing moxes this card is a monster, but I've found that in my meta the card really doesn't net value, and that the cumulative upkeep really sucks.
You play my meta, so about 80% of the decks spend thier first 3-4 turns ramping, imagine starting the game with Rhystic Study - Mystic Remora is even better as draws are harder to prevent (No, I am not sure why people in the meta think not paying for rhystic is legitimate if you don't plan on destroying it).
Even if you only pay the CU twice, three cycles of draw from Mystic Remora is massive if in the early rounds.
Mystic Remora is an amazing, I keep forgetting how powerful it is.
So far I only had a chance to play one game with the deck and I am pretty happy with how it worked, enough mass removal to deal alone with Krenko, Mob Boss and was threatening enough for the mana screwed Ephara, God of the Polis to keep flinging its spot removal at my dragons, won via Greater Good and Living Death into Scourge of Valkas and 12 other dragons, resulting in 169 damage.
I plan on testing it more, and adding Unclaimed Territory as soon as I get my claws on a copy, Pillar of Origins is probably too weak. I have plenty of cards I'd like to test but cuts become more and more difficult - currently looking at Lightning Greaves and Deathrite Shaman. Crucible of Worlds and Greater Good provided me with quite a bit of value, maybe a bit more graveyard synergy would be helpful.
Worst-case scenario it rebuys someone's Avenger of Zendikar or other ridiculous bomb, I can't justify it here.
Ramping into Wildfire early game is backbreaking for many decks, some decks will have very hard time recovering from a turn 4 Wildfire and seeing that I play a lot of artifact ramp - it happens quite often.
Cultivate is in my deck, not sure why its not in the list. I will have to update it soon anyway... (I cut Coalition Relic for it I think).
Hard disagree on side note 2 - Overgrowth ramps you for +2 while Gift of Paradise ramps for +1, I think its going to perform poorly in my meta as mono-colored decks running Strip Mine are common.
Sanctum of Eternity is so slow, I thought about it but I never had problems recasting wanderer (Food Chain, High Market, Bounce spells...)
You are right about Spelljack being underwhelming, I might have to cut it after the next update. I still have doubts about Imoti but I'd love to hear more.
Teferi, Master of Time is kinda low-impact, has it tested well for you?
I think you are wrong about Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, but I plan on testing Apex Devastator anyway. I think with the sheer amount of ramp I play - playing 2 un-cascadable threats is fine.
I have added Oko, Thief of Crowns (Rowan will move to SB) to the current iteration of the deck, turning an opponent Krenko to elk must be so satisfying, I'm down!
My playgroup unfortunately did not meet since before the pandemic, but I assure you - the only ban we did was Jeweled Lotus because it's broken in many of our decks. Consecrated Sphinx is not great in my build, it doesn't win quickly nor does something immediately - failing the Terminate test, I hate the argument "Dies to doom blade" but in commander its just an invitation to kill you first (you also can't protect it from theft, reanimation, etc...).
It's very important to note that my sb is not traditional situational sb but rather an attempt to make the deck more approachable in casual matches, so its bound to change often and without good justifications ("I hate the art" is enough).
Time Spiral was in and it was very explosive. The problem is that you don't want your opponents to untap after resolving it. Seasons Past failed to impress in general.
Devastation Tide is awesome, it's a pretty happy cascade as its often mana-positive, Evacuation is just a tad situational. Keep in mind the other mean decks in my meta are not very creature-heavy.
Mystic Confluence is fun, I think its generally better than say Evacuate as you get way more options and its a good cascade even on empty board.
I stopped playing Brutalizer Exarch quite a while ago, don't miss it.
Regal Behemoth plays a number of roles in this deck - it's neutral card advantage (you get to draw 1 at end step) and it also goes infinite with Palinchron, it gets the cut anyway though.
Crystal Shard is kinda junky, it never worked well for me. Even in decks designed around it.
I will soon post an updated version to Moxfield and update the OP
Sorry for missing out on your feedback! As a note - I had difficult time with playing and updating the deck due to the pandemic.
Will Kenrith is amazing in this deck, he is a great cascade and provides great value for 6 mana. His sister Rowan Kenrith was disappointing (to the point where she might be the weakest card in the deck) and I might play Will while eschewing her.
I didn't test Uro yet but I think he is a perfect fit for this deck, 3-mana ramp, card advantage and late-game beater, with full set of fetches I think I am going to escape him fairly often. Dack Fayden was great every time (even just for 1-shot steal sol ring), Garruk is pretty good ramp piece which also protects itself, if budget is your main concern (less fetches, etc...) - cut Uro.
Carpet of Flowers is amazing in metas where blue is running rampant, if my meta ever gets bluer - it comes back right in.
Stolen Identity might get the cut for either Aurora Phoenix or Kodama of the East Tree, it will stay in the sideboard for fun reasons. It's still pretty damn strong and copying an artifact is pretty much the default mode.
Genesis Ultimatum cannot be casted consistently with my deck's mana base, we play lots of colorless ramp with the intent to reach 8 as fast as possible.
Jeweled Lotus is at its best in this deck, I would 100% play it. Our group chose to ban it and I agree with this decision.
Imoti, Celebrant of Bounty seems like win-more, giving your best spells more juice does not impress me at all.
Dockside Extortionist probably should be in.
I'll keep answering questions later
I need this in a card form, so very badly
1x Maelstrom Wanderer
Land (36)
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Arid Mesa
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Breeding Pool
1x Cavern of Souls
1x City of Brass
1x Command Beacon
1x Command Tower
1x Flooded Grove
1x Flooded Strand
5x Forest
1x High Market
1x Hinterland Harbor
3x Island
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Mana Confluence
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Mountain
1x Polluted Delta
1x Prismatic Vista
1x Reflecting Pool
1x Rootbound Crag
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Ground
1x Strip Mine
1x Tolaria West
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Blatant Thievery
1x Bribery
1x Devastation Tide
1x Explosive Vegetation
1x Fabricate
1x Farseek
1x Hunting Wilds
1x Nature's Lore
1x Recurring Insight
1x Regrowth
1x Skyshroud Claim
1x Stolen Identity
1x Temporal Manipulation
1x Temporal Mastery
1x Time Warp
1x Tooth and Nail
1x Walk the Aeons
1x Wildfire
Creature (11)
1x Deadeye Navigator
1x Eternal Witness
1x Glen Elendra Archmage
1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1x Palinchron
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x Regal Behemoth
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Trinket Mage
1x Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
Planeswalker (8)
1x Dack Fayden
1x Garruk Wildspeaker
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Karn Liberated
1x Rowan Kenrith
1x Teferi, Temporal Archmage
1x Tezzeret the Seeker
1x Will Kenrith
1x Arcane Signet
1x Coalition Relic
1x Gilded Lotus
1x Grim Monolith
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Mind Stone
1x Oblivion Stone
1x Scroll Rack
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sol Ring
1x Thran Dynamo
1x Worn Powerstone
Instant (8)
1x Cryptic Command
1x Cyclonic Rift
1x Intuition
1x Mana Drain
1x Mystic Confluence
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Nexus of Fate
1x Spelljack
Enchantment (5)
1x Food Chain
1x Greater Good
1x Mystic Remora
1x Rhystic Study
1x Sylvan Library
I plan on employing sideboard while playing in a more casual settings:
1x Food Chain
1x Palinchron
1x Deadeye Navigator
1x Wildfire
1x Temporal Manipulation
1x Time Warp
1x Nexus of Fate
1x Walk the Aeons
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Intuition
1x Arcanis the Omnipotent
1x Avenger of Zendikar
1x Beanstalk Giant
1x Diluvian Primordial
1x Drakuseth, Maw of Flame
1x Etali, Primal Storm
1x Frontier Bivouac
1x Nezahal, Primal Tide
1x Seasons Past
1x Talisman of Curiosity
All suggestions for both the list and the sideboard will be appreciated, cheers!
- Plains
- Island
+Marsh Flats
+Noble Hierarch
I have a number of questions -
1. Why do you play the cost-reducing creatures over traditional ramp? You play so much non-dragon spells and they seem of small impact. I'd much rather play a source of colored mana.
2. Dragonstorm is really out of place, you can't reach a high storm count in a reasonble turn.
3. You play 5 mass removal spells. Why?
Overall, there seem to be no focus to your list. What exactly are you trying to do?
Bolas was an oversight on my part, he should definitely go in once he rotates out.
I dislike dragons that are pure body, Palladia-Mors, the Ruiner doesn't do much for the deck, she is likely to survive and attack but she provides no value afterwards, I try not to include dumb beaters.
Verix is a defensible inclusion - he makes a decent Broodmate Dragon impression and can be played for 3.
I can't bring myself to include Vaevictis Asmadi, the Dire, he is way too risky for my tastes. Although I run a lot of permanents, I run a few "Disposable" ones and would not like to lose a 4/4 dragon token or even Boneyard Scourge for a chance at dragon (currently less then 3/10 chance) or other permanent (which is likely to be artifact ramp), Chaos Warp is mostly played in red decks which has no access to enchantment removal or big creature removal and is a very risky card (not a bad one though).
I will probably switch out Niv for Nic once he becomes available though.
- Lightning Greaves
+ Rakdos Signet
My group runs a lot of artifact hate, getting my dragons earlier is important and greaves act as a lightning rod way too much, I'd rather them targeting someone else's Birthing Pod (mine is only used late-game anyway...)
- Crucible of Worlds
+ Dragon's Hoard
Crucible was meant to be used as an ultra-late grinding mechanism with Haven of the Spirit Dragon and for card advantage with fetchlands, the problem - its too slow and really doesn't fit in, it also does nothing on its own (although if I had a dredge theme it would work pretty well). Hoard accelerates well enough and might draw a couple of cards over the course of a usual match - much better in the average case.
- Elemental Bond
+ Temur Ascendancy
Bond is ok draw, temur is slightly worse (it doesn't draw on Wasitora tokens and Dragonlord Silumgar) but in return it grants all our creatures haste, while not a powerful card I'd still like to test it. Its very hard to cast though.
- Swords To Plowshares
+ Spit Flame
Swords was meant as a "Catch all" answer to creatures but is ultimately a 1-for-1 in a multiplayer format, meanwhile Spit Flame is repeatable removal to small-medium creatures and can be used to kill Krenko repeatedly.
- Deathrite Shaman
+ Sarkhan, Fireblood
Shaman was underwhelming, I don't run the full fetch suite so its not a reliable ramp card and the other abilites can sometimes mess up a Mimeoplasm or any number of spell-recurring cards, meanwhile Sarkhan does a lot of things for us - he can discard that all mighty Dragonlord Kolaghan for that Living Death turn. An Exciting card!
- Kindred Discovery
+ Lathliss, Dragon Queen
Kindred Discovery is a powerful card in this kind of deck, but ultimately its cost killed it - UU is too difficult. For that reason alone I am looking to cut Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius. Lathliss does everything this deck wants - strong with mass reanimation, a viable attacker on its own and acts as a "Mass firebreathing" enabler, a true staple.
- Abrupt Decay
- Vindicate
+ Atarka, World Render
+ Verix Bladewing
Abrupt Decay was meant to be an answer to the all-powerful t1 Sol Ring but in multiplayer that doesn't seem as powerful as I initially thought, Vindicate deals with a lot of cards we would normally have difficulty dealing with, but is not great as its a sorcery 1-for-1 which is ultimately weak in multiplayer. The reason behind these cuts is philosophical - I'd like to be the aggressor on the table and not the control deck, the plan for this deck is still "Turn Dragons Sideways" and I hope its reflected in the list.
Any and all advice will be appreciated, cheers!
+Forbidden Orchard +Unclaimed Territory
Orchard is great in a multiplayer setting, territory is pretty much the bottom of the barrel when it comes to rainbow lands but its good enough for a semi-budget mana base
I don't think he compares favorably with Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius, both are sitting at 5 CMC (for this deck's purpose)
Pros:
He is easier to cast.
He is rather versatile, ramps and draws or acts as a slow Broodmate Dragon, ult is very difficult to reach but usually means instant or near instant win.
He survives board wipes.
Cons:
Can be attacked.
Slower draw than Niv, which means slower post-wrath recovery (which is the whole point of drawing lots of cards).
Cannot act as removal (extremely relevant vs Krenko/Ephara/Mana Dorks).
it's not a simple trade off, but I think late-game Niv will be more relevant, Sarkhan Unbroken remains on my maybe list until I get to play more.
Anyway, its not the top part of the curve that bothers me, the exact nature of late-game threats is secondary, I believe the deck's mana base and ramp could be more efficient and better tuned.
Keiga, the Tide Star is decent, however Ryusei, the Falling Star is awful, even as a asymmetrical board clear - its situational (imagine its trigger against a kaalia) and uncontrollable (rquires a sac outlet, someone can just exile it or kill it when they need a board clear.
I considered Stormbreath Dragon and Hellkite Overlord but they suffer form similar problem - they are only beaters, overlord is plain expansive, Stormbreath is quite impressive after discount but 7 to activate is pretty tough to pay for a bit of damage. Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury cost one more to dash then Archwing Dragon but its way more powerful - with one dragon on board it deals 4 more damage, and it has another "mode", Archwing cannot compete with such versatility.
Hellkite Tyrant is a risky card. It's a very strong threat but if copied/reanimated it can backfire quite easily, is it worth the risk?
I don't feel like I need more artifact removal, nor that I lack tutors, in any case I would play Enlightened Tutor long before Hoarding Dragon, if I tutor Birthing Pod and someone bounce it then pod is forever lost, so sad.
You play my meta, so about 80% of the decks spend thier first 3-4 turns ramping, imagine starting the game with Rhystic Study - Mystic Remora is even better as draws are harder to prevent (No, I am not sure why people in the meta think not paying for rhystic is legitimate if you don't plan on destroying it).
Mystic Remora is an amazing, I keep forgetting how powerful it is.
So far I only had a chance to play one game with the deck and I am pretty happy with how it worked, enough mass removal to deal alone with Krenko, Mob Boss and was threatening enough for the mana screwed Ephara, God of the Polis to keep flinging its spot removal at my dragons, won via Greater Good and Living Death into Scourge of Valkas and 12 other dragons, resulting in 169 damage.
I plan on testing it more, and adding Unclaimed Territory as soon as I get my claws on a copy, Pillar of Origins is probably too weak. I have plenty of cards I'd like to test but cuts become more and more difficult - currently looking at Lightning Greaves and Deathrite Shaman.
Crucible of Worlds and Greater Good provided me with quite a bit of value, maybe a bit more graveyard synergy would be helpful.
Cheers!
- Dreadbore
- Sylvan Safekeeper
- Fact or Fiction
+ Regrowth
+ Vindicate
+ Deathrite Shaman
I will later edit this comment to explain the changes.