I did actually compare this to counterspell and I remember the fuss that caused. But the difference between 1 and 2 is a lot bigger than the difference between 2 and 3. From a game fundamentals standpoint this is actually much more impactful. At the time I wrote the post I was more commenting on how it was so little discussed given how big of a deal it is. The best comparison I have is not printing 1 mana burn. Like if Wild Slash cost 2 and was the bottom of the burn bucket. Even that isn't quite right since burn has good usage around a tight curve where dorks actually just get worse quicker as time goes on starting right after the first turn (more like conditional counterspells). This isn't just a matter of making something that is good more expensive. We'd play Path at 2 mana probably. It's more than taking something that isn't quite worth 2 mana and costing it there (like a 2 mana shock). It's a scenario where you take a time sensitive card and price it out of relevance. Arguably like what happened with counterspell, except the impact of the mana gap is actually larger. Look at Temur last year as example of what happens when you price something out of relevance. It doesn't matter how powerful the effect is if it's time sensitive and pushed outside of it's window.
The thing is these sort of openings are nothing new. I suppose this is how they cap they redistribute the power level. Like it isn't that the 3, 4, or 5 drops are any better than they've been in the past decade that it would put too much pressure comparatively. Like T2 Goblin Rabblemaster seems strong but it only had it was only actually a tournament winning thing for a couple short periods the last year. The reason might be simple that the same thing that answers the dorks cheaply answer Rabble cheaply. Deathmist is better on curve but it was never unbeatable. When you compare it to the openings that were available say during the time the last Zendikar block was legal these openings look absolutely tranquil. T2 Ensoul is much more powerful and Elf used to enable stuff even more powerful than that. If you look at my post above most of those openings are more powerful.
The reason it's always been somewhat balanced is playing dorks requires you to play dorks which means even if you could produce some sort of redundancy between mana resources and threats (which separates you from a pure ramp deck) you had a lot of underpowered cards in your deck. Like double dork openings into Removal Spell, Pyroclasm meant that if you don't have another big threat quite often, even if it was only a 1 for 1 and a 2 for 1 the opponent basically Mind Twisted you. You drawing more dorks or lands now is not going to win the game. It wasn't necessary the 4 mana Wrath's that kept it in check but the Pyroclasms, Bonfires, Anger of the Gods etc.. See a card like Nykthos may have made the dorks too good in the sense drawing more wasn't an awkward thing.
There was a time a few years back that Dorks were almost unplayable. When Delver of Secrets was the big deck, Gut Shot as crippling. The GW deck played all 8 dorks (4 Birds, and 4 Pilgrims) and it basically couldn't beat that card. It messed up the timing too much. I guess the real problem was it was splashable. But basically from a timing/tempo perspective that is the equivalent to having 2 mana dorks in any format that has 1 mana removal. A dork being one for one on mana is acceptable, but for it to be killed by a cheaper removal spell is backbreaking since it's sole purpose is tempo. Not even really being aggressive. Casting Shock on Rattleclaw Mystic on EoT is sort of like casting a spell against mono red that states the following:
U: Gain life equal to the amount of damage target creature dealt you this turn. At the beginning of your opponent's next combat step return that creature to it's owners hand,
Just feel how backbreaking that is. That's what answer a dork for less than it's cost is basically a kin to because of the cost of playing dorks. It doesn't matter how much stronger the 3/4/5 drops are becoming. Only the cost and flexibility of the removal when looking at 2 mana dorks.
I think the best model for a 2 mana dork which we haven't seen(Sylvan Caryatid is a good 2 mana dork) would be either the following:
GG
Haste
T: Add one mana of any color (or some shard, wedge, off green color) to your mana pool.
0/1
See no more 1 to 3.. but you could still cast 2 spells on T2 if the 2nd spell is like a Shock or Stubborn Denial. Since 1 drops are pretty weak creatures generally it would have to be multi color I think since the follow up play would like be non-creature spell which green isn't abundant in. Having a difficult mana cost might fix it.
1G
Vigilance
T: Add G to your mana pool
1/3
Basically dorks would need to have 3 toughness. I think vigilance is the perfect trait for this sort of creature. Even reach is arguably enough utility. How about mana spiders?
As for a 1 mana dork I like: G
T: Add G to your mana pool. This can only be used to play creature spells.
1/1
Even green creature spells would be acceptable I think.
In basic the key to offset say having Shock in the format is the dork needs to either not die to it or be able to play 2 spells on T2 some portion of the time. Even Rattleclaw's design to allow it act as a 3 to 6 accelerator sometimes is still borderline payoff for vulnerability. But atleast there is a payoff. If we are talking add 1 mana type creatures they need a little help.
EDIT: Just saw that Ally.. That's unfortunate.. almost right. But the creature clause negates the haste in many cases. This ally might be good enough simply because it's an ally and color fixer since the synergy of creature type rewards you. That makes it worthwhile enough to play a 1 mana ally that you could potentially cast. I'm interested to see if they expect these new dorks to see any play outside of block synergizing strategies. That was always the 1 mana dork strength. They probably will a bit but never be quite good enough. (Think Temur this whole last year).
The loss of Elvish Mystic, however, makes me sad. Standard has pretty much universally had some kind of one-mana green accelerator since the dawn of time, but it looks like the sun is finally setting on the ability to ramp into three-drops on turn 2. Magic Origins has no one cost accelerator, and we have yet to see one in Battle for Zendikar. Given that Rattleclaw Mystic costs two mana--and I'm told at one point in development it was an 0/1 for G--I expect that Wizards has finally decided to end the days one-drop mana creatures.
I've built more decks in my life that have had Llanowar Elves or their descendants than those that did not, and it's going to be weird moving forward without that option. That said, I can understand the shift in developmental philosophy since the power level of any deck that hits its one-drop mana creature is vastly higher than one that does not to the point that it can massively skew results. And a critical mass of mana production that starts on turn 1 can lead to some pretty gross starts, as we've seen from green devotion decks over the past year or so.
If this developmental shift is in fact the case, I hope it comes with an increase in the power level of midrange green creatures, at least as far as how they line up against removal effects. The saving grace of green creatures in the face of black removal has long been their ability to come out of the gates quickly, but if Elvish Mystic and friends are no more, I hope we see green creatures that are better suited to line up against Hero's Downfall and friends.
======================================
Anyway, I'm sure there will continue to be 2 mana ramp spells, whether they be Rampant Growth or Leaf Gliders or Sylvan Scrying. Green will continue get this effect for sure. I'm sure there will be feasible green ramp decks etc. There is nothing to complain about from a green color pie perspective really. Just not being at 1 is a game changer. For all the reasons I gave above. It was largely the keystone to being able to play green as a Tempo deck since by having a relevant T1 was equivalent of being able to play 2 spells super early in the game. The certain brand of aggressive midrange deck I specialize in is all but dead without this type of card.
I thought the same of Birds of Paradise. Fact is they are done with this cornerstone of a color's strength.
I am highly opposed to this change. Instead of balancing 3 mana threats around our 1 mana dorks now 4 mana threats will have to be balanced around 2 mana dorks. This fixes absolutely nothing.
As did I. Birds was too powerful, in the Lightning Bolt versus Shock sense.
Mind you they don't have to balance for T3 4 drops I don't think. The real advantage of the 1-3 is that most decks aren't ready to properly react to 3 drops until they get to 3 mana themselves so using your virtual card advantage and the fact you are ahead you basically get a time walk you get to maintain until they can cast 2 spells a turn. If you get to cast 2 spells a turn first or able to stick a threat that produces value or in many cases end the game fast (which the dorks would help with as well) there is very little coming back. With 2 to 4 this isn't a problem. You don't play anything worth answering until the turn they get to 3 mana at the worst. And even then they are free to have T2 plays that probably offset the dork itself or the incremental advantage the 4 drop has to bring to even be a contender. The 4 drop you go to has to be a Planeswalker or Huntmaster, and less a Hero of Oxid Ridge or Shaman of the Great Hunt.
So this definitely "fixes" something. But what it does is more like fundamentally change how a 3rd of greens typical archetypes work. 1 to 3 is a thing. 2 to 4 can be ignored. I mean that's an oversimplification because even dork decks have historically gotten some 2-4 draws. But you remove the possibility for the strong 1-3 opening and the nut(in some cases) T3 5 drop opening. By pushing that comboish effect back a turn a lot of the free wins that are associated with these archetypes go away. You draw them into that middling 1 for 1 game that they can play but obviously not as well as a dedicated deck to do so. You force these decks to be more inconsistent towards ramp decks or to drop the dorks and just play a sort of bad aggro game that is slower without reach. Speed is what generally makes bruteforcing work.
Yeah I mean in a sense it could be just one set but I get the impression they want to reduce it. Maro's statement being one thing but this death has has been a slow and exadgerated one. You see for the longest time it wasn't that there wasn't 1 card legal with this ability but 2 or 3. They've been testing the water with only 1 for huge chunks of the last 3 years. This is very telling. I've been waiting forever it feels for them to bring back a 2nd one. Having the classic 6-8 1 mana dorks has been the formula for many decks over the years. By comparison many of the deck aggressive midrange decks have felt clunkier the last few years. Jund Monsters especially noteworth. The only reason GR Dragons hasn't is because this whole format is clunky. Temples have sort of masked the fact that the 1 mana dorks have been slipping away. Having only a small number of Dorks like say 2-3 is common in slower midrange decks like Ari Lax's original Abzan Deck from PT KTK or even some versions of midrange Jund. Whereas the 6-8 dorks is the Kibler special so to speak. It's an archetype with a long history (of being in almost in every format) that is gutted much like Draw Go was at the time they changed Counterspells for 8th Edition.
As I mentioned in my original post it isn't a colour thing. It could be a splashability thing in that like say Black Lotus or a Mox (or Tarmogoyf) it could just fit anywhere but there is a real cost. To properly play elf you tend to need to play atleast 12 T1 untapped green sources. In a lot of decks that's half your mana sources. The rest of green isn't affected. Look at my list. Elves are most famously used to cast other colour cards early rather than Green ones, most notably Red and White cards. If this has affected green design space it's only that it's really hard to make a good green 1 drop to play over the Elf. Warden or Sunblade Elf aren't good enough. You need basically Wild Nacatl. That being said I don't think those cards are quite good enough anyway. So until they figure out what to do in the green 1/2 slot it's a bit of a void. As mentioned before 2 mana ramp is a completely different thing. The timing is completely different. They make completely different decks. For instance it's one of the main reasons Temur hasn't been a deck all year long. It's premier cards rely on tempo and heavy colour requirements and Rattleclaw is a turn too slow. Birds of Paradise or Noble Hierarch and Temur is a contender. Instead it has been the worst Clan consistently all year even if it's cards are when looking at them on the surface perfectly positioned in this metagame.
So as I said it makes a lot of sense. But we can't just cop out and just say it's only a 1 mana dork etc since generally they are things we take for granted. No longer. It's hard to find the right comparison because the effect that they have on the game is so unique. By removing them you aren't just slightly weakening a card type. Like Shock still kills a cheap creature for 1 mana, mayhe not as well as bolt which is getting to a range where going to the face is worth a card. I mean that is pretty fundamental difference but you can still get most of the affect on time. This is more like no 1 mana burn spell (I think they've done this in the past). Similarly Counterspell might have been pushed back a turn but you can still curve out with them just you are forced to diversify your answers a bit more. Or 4 vs 5 mana wrath is huge but they did it at a time where they gave us smaller cards that take out multiple permanents on the cheap. It allows the same strategies to exist with more holes and more pressure on it's removal.
Basically the archetypes that Elvish Mystic and Co promoted are an sort of annoying design space that really fights against trying to design a set. Kind of like Ux Tempo decks these style of decks tend to beat the larger versions of themselves rather than lose to them. They are the midrange deck that beat all but the largest midrange decks. So when you are trying to make a set synergy based or slow it down these archetypes ignore that. Typical anti aggro techniques don't work. Especially with the move to make sweepers more conditional they can often find a window and just bash right through middling grindy 1 for 1 decks without even subscribing to the school of value. This is very restrictive on the rest of the format. Like look at last years 2 top decks around this time Jund Monsters and Black Devotion. A deck like Jund Monsters should just lose to Devotion. They built a whole format around devotion sinergies and Monsters was like a deck that just kept on coming out ignoring everything else that was going on. In won despite itself making it a very close matchup. Look at the tools Black Devotion had and the matchup was still like 50/50. The real scary part is if there was say a 2nd suitable 1 mana dork instead of Caryatid, how much better Jund Monsters would have been.
Regardless the point is, this is a huge change. Even if not the biggest deck there is always an Elvish Mystic deck in the top 5 decks in the format. There is always one version in the competitive section like there is one Mono Red deck. It's the type of archetype that is always popular even if it isn't the best. And usually it has some sort of effect on the edges of the metagame (like red does, even when red isn't a thing). Elvish Mystic saves you from Midrange Hell from the opposite side of the that spectrum. Elvish Mystic allowed Green decks during Thragtusk Era to not play Thragtusk. Without elf that incentive largely goes away. Now there is no gate there, and we are sort of welcoming bad midrange deck we can picture. It could be fun I suppose but it will sure be different.
I'm no longer in denial and from a game design perspective. I totally get it but I wanted to pay tribute to what I consider one of the most important engines in magic history. Elvish Mystic and the like have propelled decks into the top of the Standard metagame regardless of the specific format since 1993. It was the card for the Timmy who wants to play the big threats as much as for the lone the wolf strategist that liked to hone his/her skills playing the same archetype format after format. The reason was if you wanted to brute force your opponent these 1 mana dorks were almost always a way to do so. It didn't matter if Delver of Secret's or Squadron Hawks were flying over or you were under the constant repression of the Titans or Eldrazi. Or even if the whole format was based on synergy like Devotion or Constellation. One mana dorks were basically strong enough to ignore what was going on and be a contender where they probably had no business doing so. More so as an enabler they often allowed for multi-colored decks (even if they only produced one color of mana). In this way they were more resolute in their positioning. It wasn't just like the way Craig Wescoe plays White Weenie. You could almost always work Elvish Mystic in with the best cards in the format.
I started playing Magic in 1994 (although I had some breaks) and I wouldn't say I played a one mana dork in every deck I played just the vast majority. Any one who reads my posts knows I test a decent amount so obvious I have had my hand on a lot of decks. But generally when it came to the tournament I always lean one way. There were formats where there were clearly decks where Elvish Mystic wasn't dominating. I played Caw Blade like everyone else. Although admittedly after a month of that I "improved it" by added 1 mana dorks (and green etb artifact removal) to that deck. That might be considered an extreme although it was very good in the mirror, but I wanted to establish how big of a fan I am of these cards. I sit on this forum pretty much constantly brewing aggressive green midrange strategies. This is an archetype that is basically completely fueled off 1 mana dorks. This goes back even before Zvi's infamous Fires deck. And that is the archetype that dies in a few weeks or at the very least changes unrecognizably to the future.
So I know people aren't really on this one as much and perhaps it's the general change in perspective towards WotC over the years but this is the biggest change since they stopped printing Counterspell. In fact I would say this change is actually more impactful. We all know why Counterspell got the boot. Similar to how now they are not printing unconditional wrath's at 4 mana. It was too oppressive to have something so absolute so low on the curve. It got to a point where you could curve on counterspells pretty much. At the time the threats weren't good enough to take advantage of a window when someone couldn't answer. In addition it was generally feel bad to have your spells not even resolve. Ironically in the current standard we have the closest we've had to actual Counterspell in a while (Silumgar's Scorn). But that goes to show how without the absolute thing Wizards has some room to experiment in more space. I will talk a bit about that later. But in the same way Draw Go went away or had to fundamentally change, so does green decks with the death of Elvish Mystic. I don't mean all green decks. Midrange decks like traditional Jund or Abzan are untouched. Ramp decks will generally find their way anyway as 1 mana dorks were only sometimes part of the equation. No the real losers here are Aggressive Midrange decks ala Brian Kibler etc.
I will list a few from the past years created or popularized by:
Selesnya Megamorph (Brian Kibler, 2015)
Gruul Dragons (CVM, 2015)
Jund Monsters (CVM, 2014)
Jund Unfriendly Skies (Ross Merriam, Cedric Phillips, 2013)
Naya Psuedo Pod (Brian Kibler, 2012)
Selesnya Humans (Martin Juza, 2011)
Gruul Blade Breaker (Brian Kibler, 2011)
Vengevine Naya (Brad Nelson, 2010)
Next Level Bant (Brian Kibler, 2010)
Mythic (Zvi Mowshowitz, 2010)
Boss Naya (Tom Ross, 2009)
Gruul Aggro (Jacob Van Lunen, 2008)
The list pretty much goes on all the way back to the early 2000's once we got past Urza's Block. To Zvi's Fires deck and Kibler's Dragon deck that earned him the title "Dragonmaster" back at PT Chicago in 2000.
The Power
There are several cards to where this mantle over the years. In some formats there were so many options that Elvish Mystic or Llanowar Elves it's counterpart weren't even good enough. The key thing to understand about these cards is the sheer power level. I think I will do so by reviewing all the 6 modes on these cards. In many ways they are like 1 mana Cryptic Commands or Cruel Ultimatums. In so it's very easy to see why they are too powerful to exist in Standard. I mean you shouldn't play your one drop and feel like you don't even care what's in your opponents deck. That's how I often felt playing these cards. Elspeth, Ugin, who cares. I have Elvish Mystic. These are really the Chuck Norris of magic cards. Stormcrow may have it's hype but Elvish Mystic doesn't need to fly to defeat it.
1. Duress + Timewalk
This mode is often decent against heavy removal decks. Basically because their removal spells are more expensive than your Elf you can remove a removal spell from their hand and use their mana development for the turn. You can often follow up with another dork or cheap threat and depending it creates this sort of pressure where they need to keep on answering your threats. In a one for one game they never get to draw cards or develop their board. In some cases you can keep this pressure up for the duration of the game. It isn't unlikely taking infinite turns in Vintage with Time Vault and Voltaic Key.
2. Gain ~4 Life
This might even be a conservative estimate depending on the format. But against red decks on the play, if you basically force red decks to take a turn off going to the face or deploying threats by burning the dork. You both save the life to the face from the burn spell and the attack. Ie.. If they cast Bolt instead of Goblin Guide. You saved yourself probably 7 life. This is incredible rate for a 1G card. My point is Elvish Mystic dying is a very strategic play and one of the cards biggest values.
3. Mana Battery
This one is pretty obvious. You have an extra mana and you play it. It let's you curve tigher. You can play a 4 drop and 1 drop on T4 (I assume you have 5 mana on T4). Then you untap with 6 mana (7 if you hit your 5th land). These cards really let you use your mana efficiently and be able to cast 2 spells in one turn sooner than anyone else.
4. The old 1, 3, 4
This is the premise behind Aggressive Midrange. It's the most powerful opening in the game. Some examples include:
Elvish Mystic, Domri Rade, Polukranos
Elvish Mystic, Goblin Rabblemaster, Shaman of the Great Hunt
Elvish Mystic, Strangleroot Geist, Hero of Oxid Ridge
Avacyn's Pilgrim, Mirran Crusader, Angelic Destiny or Hero of Bladehold
Avacyn's Pilgrim, Blade Splicer, Restoration Angel
Birds of Paradise, Cunning Sparkmage, Stoneforge Mystic for Basilisk Collar
Noble Hierarch, Knight of the Reliquary, Rafiq
Elvish Mystic, Gyre Sage, Burning Tree Emissary + Falkenrath Aristocrat
Elvish Mystic, Sword of War and Peace.. kill you (ok didn't really need the 4 there)
These sort of openings usually lead to T5 kills. They are incredibly fast and don't require many cards to do it.
5. The old 1, 3, 5/6
This is the double dork curve. Readily employed by decks like Mythic.
The most famous opening of this sort is:
Noble Hierarch, Cobra + Fetch + Knight of the Reliquary, Fetch + Sovereigns attack fetch Eldrazi Conscription
But I mean these are real too:
Elvish Mystic, Rattleclaw Mystic, Flip (Xenagos + Polukranos) or Dromoka
Elvish Mystic, Sylvan Caryatid, Stormbreath Dragon
Short of cheap sweepers these openers only enabled by the T1 dork present insane T3's often.
6. The body
Sometimes forgotten but these dorks were great fuel for Birth Pod or even like Evolutionary Leap as they basically cycle themselves if they've been in play a turn. They are relevant for overrun abilities like Garruk Wildspeaker. Making an Elf a 3/3 with Fires of Yavimaya wins a decent number of games. I have won many control matchups beating down with a 1/1 elf I had sandbagged after the 2nd or 3rd sweeper when we are both out of cards. Birds of Paradise with flying is a fantastic chump blocker. This comes up a decent amount of times in Pod where you can sacrifice a token to get birds to block in the air. They carry equipment well especially swords. They even sometimes trade with 1 toughness creatures.
All in all these cards are very versatile for only costing 1 mana.
The Future
I'm not really sure where this goes. I mean one could hope for conditional 1 mana dorks the same way blue still has Essence Scatter and Negate. But I mean they have to be more versatile than say Gnarlroot Trapper. They did give that card an extra ability. But can you imagine if Essence Scatter only countered say Green creatures would it see maindeck play (ironically it might right now). But you get where i'm going. They will probably have to restrict 1 mana dorks considerably. I doubt color is even enough as Elvish Mystic has proven over the years. Only being able to cast certain types of spells or having limits to turning it on. That reknown dork, Honored Hierarch is a terribly awkward card since you don't get the mana bonus til T3. When I look at that card I think would you print a counterspell that was UU Counter Target Spell unless there is an Instant or Sorcery in your Graveyard, otherwise Counter Target spell unless the opponent pays 1. It basically scales in the wrong direction. You actually might even. The problem is dorks already scale worse in the wrong direction as mana gets more plentiful.
2 Mana dorks have rarely been close to comparable to 1 mana dorks. First of all to catch up on rate they need to produce 2 mana conditionally. Lotus Cobra is really the only 2 mana dork ever to be comparable and for the most part I think 1 mana dork is better. If you look at the 6 modes above, the only thing that 2 mana dork has is the body. One mana removal especially burn pretty much negates the first 2 modes. The last time this was the norm was during the reign of Gut Shot. Even if you are on the play they can make their move, and kill your dork before you even get to tap it for mana. No more Timewalks and it halfs the life gain if it even effectively does so (since a second 1 drop and a burn spell maybe with Prowess pretty much negates it). There are no 1, 3, 4 or 1, 3, 5/6 .. it's now 1, 2, 4/5. It looks similar but you give the opponent time to kill your dork or your threat without you being ahead a threat. At 2 mana you need to be playing significantly under the curve to just fit it in as a mana battery of sorts. Basically a 2 mana dork does nothing a 1 mana dork does except produce 1 mana which wasn't really even worth mentioning on it's own for 1 mana dork. So cheap removal is a serious problem for 2 mana dorks. So Sylvan Caryatid was a good for that, but otherwise you are generally better with a Rampant Growth which also has never been good enough for aggressive midrange. Having the body for sinergy purposes whether to stem the bleeding, attacking, or draw out removal is super important for these sort of strategies. Really a 2 mana dork would have to be like a 1/3 or even a pushed to like a 2/3 to really get around these timing issues.
Anti-aggro problem is similar too. See with the 1 to 3 you can take the aggressive initative. It let's you play 4 drops that primarily attack. Where in 2 to 4 decks you need value, you need to play threats that don't just get killed. 2-4 decks have always favored planeswalkers and cards like Huntmaster of the Fells which play a good catchup game. This is fine but it's not how you play aggressive midrange. You want to slam the Dragon or the Polukranos. Size and Bruteforce are only really good if you can present a certain density. You need your 3 drop to attack through a card like Courser of Kruphix. No just sit and chill. The whole key to these decks is that you can keep creating threats to stay ahead and you find with card quality and density instead of true CA. You just win the tempo game based on Virtual Card Advantage. This allows to maximize low removal counts and really use every part of the buffalo when it comes to your threats. Basically it rewards people good at doing combat math and planning turns ahead. It's more of the skills of someone who plays an aggro deck than a midrange deck except your card quality is significantly better.
It will definitely be interesting moving forward to see where this goes. But it will for sure be very different for those have wielded the power of the mana dorks over the years. I look forward to hear your thoughts and experiences for these unreplaceable cards.
RIP Elvish Mystic, Birds of Paradise, Llanowar Elves, Avacyn's Pilgrim, Noble Hierarch, Fyndhorn Elves, Boreal Druid, Elves of the Deep Shadows
Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury is really interesting in a build like this, but I'm suspicious of the mana and Kolaghan's ability to push through damage if it's the first dragon available to play. While playing jund I had myself at 11 black sources and occasionally falling short of the single black necessary.
Yeah.. Kolaghan wasn't quite right.. I went back to having Den Protector in that slot. The mana cost is one thing for sure although not too bad. I mean it it doesn't always work and I guess depending on what the cards trying to do that can completely defeat the purpose. Like with Dromoka I never seem to have a problem but when you want Kolaghan you want it now. The way the deck plays out Kolaghan sort of relies on you not using your creatures as removal spells. With say a BR Dragons deck you generally use removal on the opponents threats and then find a window to jam. Whereas during those phases with Temur I find I'm trading my Dragons on because I know I have more. But it means by the time Kolaghan is good to go I could be playing Atarka. It just isn't worth it. Whereas Dromoka does something real and important that Atarka doesn't simulate.
Going back to Tri lands is probably not worth the trade up really. Part of my recent approach to the deck has been upping the temples because of how much better they are. It makes the deck feel that much clunky. That being said it was mostly since Sarkhan. Sarkhan is sort of interesting because timing wise he sets you up to win the super long battle, but not the mid battle. When you win with Sarkan it usually takes like 5-6 turns. It's an angle that isn't worth playing since the printing of Languish and Tragic Arrogance really. Abzan has no issue trading resources and buying them back. It's no longer the game where you can keep up grinding their Deathmists with Dragons. They can reset all your progress. This sort of sets me back at Den Protector since it can generally buy back a threat or a permission on the cheap. This pretty much gives you that checkmate position with decent flexibility. It's not hard for Temur Dragons to find windows to get ahead. It's maintaining that momentum in some matchups which is hard.
I realized Nissa does pretty much exactly what I was using Sarkhan for. I mean I still like having 1.. but 2 is too many. Because I've opened up my mana considerably I haven't felt the need for it. That's why it's actually pretty interesting to be able to power out Kolaghan's or sideboard into Dromoka. The trickiest part of playing this deck is you have no reset switch for a midrange deck. Not everyone's cup of tea. Mind you that's not where I find I was losing. I have made this change mostly to try to improve my main deck. I found with my previous lists I was extremely favored every matchup afterboard but game 1 I'd sometimes not get there. I tend to design decks like this so I have consider that. They are basically 45% on average against the field game 1 and then like 60% after on average for game 2 and 3. I think it's mostly to do how I value you tempo by sort of hugging my opponents timing and that's really hard to do across the board in the first game. You just may not have the right cards. It's weird though I'm rarely shaving full cards unless they are like 2 ofs main.. most of the tweaks are just moving numbers around so it's not like any of the cards are bad anywhere just that it's a balance of what's slightly better to get the right timing matchup.
The board plan looks even worse against aggro perhaps but Gather Courage is just simply the best card there. If I'm playing my proactive game they can't win. It's not just about racing because permission looks out their reach and access to cards like Dromoka or Atarka just close the game way too easily. Gather is often atleast a 2 for 1 even if it looks like a 1 for 1.. in that you typically save your guy.. you might even be able to block their attacker or maybe even ward their attack. When you consider the tempo loss plus the burn to the face loss especially if they need to burn other threats now afterwards it's about a gain 7 for 1, that takes no setup. This only works if you have stuff powerful enough to ramp into, but it's definitely something to consider.
The more I look at it the more I like Dromoka. The fact that it isn't necessarily that hard to play is real. Christian had 4 lands to cast it off of, 4 Caryatid, and 2 Sarkhan. It really doesn't take anymore than that. I've been testing it the last day or so on my current mana (same list as my sig replace whisperwood). Which is 2 lands, 4 Caryatid + 3 Shaman, and 2 Sarkhan. My sources are definitely more conditional, but it makes cards like Gather Courage out of the board much better on their payout. It basically humiliates most red decks. Downside is it is pretty do nothing against Abzan Control. It's passable against Abzan Aggro. I do find it interesting that it sort of makes Dragonclaw redundant. I'm not sure that's in a bad way though. Having so many can't be countered threats makes it really difficult for control especially when you have your own counterspells. In basic Dromoka is the best card at holding the skies with Sarkhan to pull the long game. Shaman + Xenagos is still the safety switch if things try to go too long. I know I'm talking all in context of my list but I can't help but feel while the posted list does some good things it's only leveraging part of the card which adds quite a different element to a lot of matchups.
Ryansolid, have you tested this deck against aggro decks? I always have problems with them when I play Temur with no anger of the gods and no feed the clan.
Yep, although really only the red variety. I imagine mono black aggro would be just awkward enough but I could be wrong. I'm not considering Abzan or Jeskai Aggro as aggro in this comparison since they are really midrange decks. Firstly I'm going to say those 2 last removal slots are usually removal that can be used in red matchups. Usually I do find I need a certain threshold of burn spells. Different Temur decks need different things. I've played around with a few of the options but Anger never worked well for me in a deck that is at all ambitious on curve since I wanted to side out my x/4's generally and really 5 is where I tended to want to stop against decks I could rely on my dorks with. The way I actually beat those red decks is usually Atarka and being able to counter their burn to the face. That takes your dorks surviving. Gather Courage is possibly the best anti red counter spell. That being said I'm a dog game 1 unless I just get there and I'm depending on the opponent having red removal. I played against Boros and honestly it was my Bellower for Rec Sage that made a huge difference there, so this is being a bit narrow. As long as mono red is the only real aggro deck I don't think it's too hard to push this sort of plan. I've always played the aggro matchups close rather than really trying to control the game. They need to burn you out generally so my Stubborn Denials may only be gain 4's instead of 10's. But I can much easier play more of these type of cards without dedicated cards.
Feed the Clan I toyed with a bit but I never could stick with it because it was a special purpose counterspell like Gather Courage was. The difference was it required more setup. Where there were plenty of games Gather would make the difference and similarly I wouldn't be able to get Feed online til my back was already against the wall and they had some anti life gain card. The timing never worked for me, but everyone plays their lines a bit different.
I played Temur See the Unwritten at the WMCQ in Philly. I played pretty poorly and was compensated as such (5-3).
Sarkhan Unbroken was hot garbage all weekend.
Surrak Dragonclaw on the other hand? This guy is good. This guy is really good. Against Abzan Aggro he is an absolute house. He ambushes literally the entire deck, only dying to Abzan Charm or a huge Walker.
If I were in the Temur boat, I'd start jamming more of him.
Surrak is good in a land of Dromoka's Command (and by extension usually Ultimate Price). When size matters he's a rate you can't ignore. It means that Surrak has really only 1 truly bad matchup and it's Abzan Control. That's enough to delegate the card to sideboard for me but he's finally decently positioned. I'm not too surprised Sarkhan wasn't right in that list mind you as I suggested in my last comment. I was comparing Sarkhan to See the Unwritten and that's actually the right sort of way of looking at it. I don't think the deck can afford 6 See the Unwritten. Unless you are significantly ahead on presence can you really play Sarkhan. You need an additional creature to his dragon for each creature the opponent controls, and Languish a is a real issue so you usually can't just play it into Siege Rhino or if you do, draw a card (again only when you have additional blocker. Sarkhan is slow too. You play it to have a gradual CA engine typically. It's better than Whisperwood when you pack permission but it doesn't protect your board. You play cards like this when you need some value in the mid-late game so that you don't just 1 for 1'd out of the game as punishment for the amount of mana you play.
Brought the following list to a local FNM after driving 2 hours to get back home. Went straight from the highway to the LGS and went 4-1 with the following Temur list. First I'll post a quick rundown of matches.
R1 vs. Matthew (MonoRed/RW/something) 2-1
The guy wasn't great. So a miserable matchup turned into a fine one. Game 1 I hit all 3 Thunderbreak Regents and he had to kill each one with burn spells, leading to 12 damage over the course of the game. Game 2 I had in the bag. I stopped a Deflecting Palm with Wild Slash to knock him to 3, but should have attacked with my mana guys. Because at 3 he had enough life to crack two fetch lands and hit me with 2 Exquisite Firecrafts for dead. Game 3 was easy. Just a whole bunch of Stubborn Denial making him sad.
R2 vs. Brian (UR Tutelage) 2-1
I lost game 1 to a mana screw and him hitting double/triple Tutelage. Not much to say there. Game 2 hit landed an early Xenagos and had Back to Nature for when he tried to draw off his double Tutelage. Game 3 he was never able to get more than a single tutelage up at a time, and Savage Knuckleblade did the rest of the work. Anger of the Gods and Encase in Ice look really silly against Papa Knucks.
R3 vs. Travis (Mardu Aggro/Midrage) 2-1 Not a Dragons deck. It was playing things like Sarkhan, Elspeth, Hordeling Outburst, and Butcher of the Horde. Game 1 I got kinda lucky. I hit his Butcher with a Reality Shift after he sacked a whole bunch of goblins to it, and he manifested a Crackling Doom. At that point I had enough pressure to just fly over the top and kill him. Game 2 I couldn't get my footing and he smashed me with Goblins and Rabblemaster. Game 3 was close, and he landed a Sorin to Stabilize and go from 4 to 10. But I was able to Stormbreath and Craters Claws for exactly lethal.
R4 vs. Joshua (Abzan Control) 1-2
Game 1 saw me hit every elf in my deck. And Xenagos. Not exactly what you want to see vs. some one playing Drown in Sorrow and Languish. Game 2 was a piece of cake. I had all the right threats to his removal and all the right answers (Stubborn Denial) to his other things. Game 3 finally looked like I might stabilize, but I was at 1 after landing Atarka, and he had 2 guys left to kill me with.
R5 vs. Steven (Bant Megamorph) 2-0
Pretty easy, all things considered. Game 1 saw Thunderbreak Regent jump in early. I actually missed two Regent triggers when he tried to Dromoka's command his Deathmist Raptor and fight my dragon...twice. I had to Reality shift his guy, and he responded with the second Command...so I responded with the second shift. So I missed 6 damage that way. Didn't really matter, since I then dropped Stormbreath and knocked him to 6 with lethal in hand. Game 2 was just about the same. Double Regents make for rough beats against Deathmist Raptor decks, and I knew I could race it pretty easily.
Notes on individual cards.
Reality Shift is the only card that answers everything. Unfortunately. It's really not my favorite thing to be doing, but it answers Hangarback, Dragonlords, and various other flying threats all at instant speed on the cheap. The manifest they get can go either way. Sometimes they'll manifest a key removal spell or planeswalker. Other times they'll get a creature and you'll be back to square one. It's something you have to really measure and I don't blame anyone else who doesn't want to play it.
I'm split on Shaman of Forgotten Ways. Sometimes it's absolutely great. Other times it doesn't do enough. That said, It was VERY easy for me to get to the required 11 mana during the night, and I was able to activate the Shaman against my Abzan opponent in Game 1. I didn't, because then I'd die on the crack-back. But I almost had it.
Xenagos is still the best card in the deck. Man. It's insane and probably not even close. I wish I could find a way to play more of him. Stormbreath might be next, but Xenagos gives you everything this deck needs in just about every matchup.
Stubborn Denial is unreal. It's just so good and probably exactly what this deck wants. It's such a blowout against Abzan and UB. In my mind it's the single reason to be playing Temur over GR Dragons/Midrange/Aggro. If you're not playing Stubbs, why bother playing Blue at all? It means you get to laugh at Languish and removal spells.
Dragonlord Atarka and Crater's Claws are simply the best things you can be doing with all the man the deck makes. If I can, I'll never tap out for either, because leaving one blue open to represent stubbs is fantastic.
I'd like to fit some of the following into the deck, at least to test.
Icefall Regent: It seems like a decent hedge against other creature decks. Plus you might get to live the dream with it and Thunderbreak to make removing it extra difficult.
Draconic Roar: With 9 dragons main-deck, I feel like some number of these is pretty good. Unfortunately, my non-creature spell slots are pretty tight. I don't think it's better than Crater's Claws, and it's definitely worse than Reality Shift against Siege Rhino and Hangarback Walker.
Magma Spray: This can easily be put in instead of Wild Slash to deal with Hangarback. I like Slash against the odd Deflecting Palm or Foggy deck, though. And most of the decks that play Hangarback are also decks you REALLY don't want Spray against either.
Hornet Nest: If Goblins/Mono-red Dudes becomes more of the red-based meta than MonoRed Burn, Hornet Nest gets the nod over Feed the Clan. Man, I really hate Feed the Clan, but it's a pretty solid chunk of life...
I think your existing list is pretty good, there are a few metagame calls for the cards to test but most of them won't be good enough unless you have a specific need for certain interactions. Something Magma Spray or Hornet's Nest are those sort of cards but might be completely unnecessary. Although in my opinion Deflecting Palm versus exile isn't even a debate. Every random Ashcloud or Flamewake Phoenix, Hangarback, Den Protector, Bloodsoaked Champion. None of these may be a real thing right now, but they've all been more of a thing than Deflecting Palm ever has outside of that Draft to Constructed Boros player or think I'm too clever Jeskai player at the local FNM. Shaman is sometimes a "dead" draw but the payout if early is so huge it is a real consideration. Your top end is less ambitious than mine so it's less worth it definitely. Especially because it can't fuel Claws. Part of the reason I play so fat is I needed more payout to be worth playing that card for me that involved going up to 8 5 drops. That being said I guess it's a bit similar to Claws the incentive for me is basically casting creatures at a great discount and leaving up Clash of Wills.
That's a cool deck. I like the curve basically. Whether or not I like the mana is another thing but the colours look right. It's just always hard to judge at a certain threshold. He basically took a typical Temur Dragons mold and replaced the 3 Atarka's with 2 Dromoka's and an Ugin. I think I might have to try that.
As for myself I'm done with gimmicky approaches. You need to try them out at the beginning of each format, but for me Woodland Bellower is a bust for now. Until Nykthos and Genesis Hydra go away. Don't get me wrong. The card is decent with the right support. But the best play really was T1 Elf, T2 Shaman of the Forgotten Ways, T3 Bellower + Reverent Hunter as a 6/6. This is a powerful opening to be sure but drawing the Hunter was awkward, and playing more than one Hunter was awkward. Basically Deathmist, Knuckles, and Hunter were all the same card slightly different so unless there was an enchantment you really wanted to kill nothing really stood out as a target. And the inconsistency of drawing the Reclamation Sage or Elf, Hunter, all Dragons opener was enough to make it not as powerful as it needed to be. If it was always the biggest game in town I could live with that variance but Nykthos says otherwise.
Mind you some good stuff came out of that. Like I like Whisperwood better than the 3rd or 4th Sarkhan. Shaman of the Forgotten Ways is like Lotus Cobra (and is an x/3). I never thought I'd like a Dreamweaver Druid but this one has been good (I'm sure until I run into Draconic Roar.dec). Obviously it isn't as good as Cobra but it gives you that play ahead of the curve leave permission up angle that I miss from Cobra days. Those lines are usually much better than jamming Bellower at 6. Playing a 5 drop and leaving up Denial is much more potent usually.. I want my mana to survive so Caryatid is back.
The other thing was I got a good feel of how far I could stretch the mana with Knuckles. I side Knuckles out a lot but he's the best intermediate play now I think so I'm going to jam him. The trick though is play 25 lands. I've been on that before but I wasn't playing enough Temples. I'm trying to shift around the base again.
I have 2 free sideboard spots right now. Mainly that this list is probably like 75% against Abzan Control. Whisperwood gives the dragons even more wrath protection, and allows you to even sandbag them against Elspeth. Roast might be what I want against Abzan Aggro but the matchup is already reasonable. I've been finding this list pretty good across the board but it really sticks out how good it is against Abzan. The trickiest part is if they have Dromoka they will bring it in against you because of the permission. Which means that Dromoka Tragic Arrogance is a thing. Mind you if they are missing either side they fall easily. The permission main makes control decent too. Basically the last 2 spots are probably removal spells, like Roast or more Magma Sprays. I was considering Draconic Roar other than I usually side out my Stormbreaths against decks that I really need more burn, so unless Abzan Aggro or Jeskai are problematic I don't see it. It's possible I'm just supposed to play some awkward cards versus fliers like Arbor Colossus or Plummet. Colossus + Surrak are even decent upper end subs against red aggro given their 6 toughness and even Dromoka's Command decks, since outside of pure GW Deathmist is on a bit of a decline and Knuckleblade does nothing a lot of times in both places.
So the way I see it is you either have to play Dromoka or Ugin or cater to removing it. However outside of Dromoka, permission deals with every other top end threat including Ugin. So in Temur Dragons it was a sort of given to me. However that 4 color list is interesting. It feels even better paired with the permission than my list. The burn might be wasted on it. It has this manic thing where it attacks in 2 phases but doesn't really have a bridge. That will work generally if you can keep the pressure on long enough while you draw the mana to get to plan 2, however if you get there and you kept the pressure up why haven't you won? I have the same issue trying to justify Atarka. But I can force a bigger window. If the opponent just Hero's your Dromoka or End Hostilities it's unlikely even Ugin gets you back or a couple Draconic Roars since if they were good enough you would have won the game already.
EDIT: Updated my list above.. Trying something a little greedier but it's hard to deny the pure card quality. I mean no deck has more dragons.
You wouldn't think Sarkhan Unbroken would be good in a deck like this (since you can't fetch him off a See the Unwritten) but he provides recurring ferocious and ramps you into 6 mana, which is where this deck is trying to operate since it unmorphs an Ashcloud Phoenix and is, well, See the Unwritten mana.
Yeah before Bellower was legal I was sort of playing a deck like this to see if I thought it could feasible. My concern was of course running into Counterspells. I decided after a little testing I'd just have to wait for Bellower because setting up See the Unwritten took considerably my work. Like if I got a good dork draw I usually didn't want to slam it T4 if you could play a ferocious creature first whereas Bellower you most certainly would. Like you'd rather sandbag a Stormbreath in many situations than a Bellower, and See the Unwritten sort of forces your hand if you want to up your odds. Ultimately it was a counterspell issue with control and the matchup felt close but slightly unfavorable which I wasn't comfortable with at the time. I could be more comfortable with it recently but I generally prefer playing decks that show control decks whose their master. It was hard to play the right tools to make it even on the positive side. Obviously the first things you board out are the See the Unwrittens, but it went beyond that and was sort of fundamental to me making the shift to only counterspell reactive spells main. Basically you always want a deck right now (and even then) that has the ability to stop decks from going all in faster than you for a trivial opportunity cost. This means an ability to take out a T2 Ensoul or that Ascendancy etc or even that Stoke or opposing See the Unwritten or Atarka. Sarkhan is good in the deck, to enable Ferocity, but is the deck actually better off with Dragons over Whisperwood when it relies on it's board so much. Don't get me wrong I'm playing the exact same game. Seeing how much I can borrow from GR Devotion without getting stuck ground pounding and not being able to close games fast enough. But we can't depend on being faster in the head to head, and we should consider if the tradeoff makes us better in other matchups (like control which has been a weakness of Devotion).
The most interesting stuff to me is the tension between the fact that Control has to be making a comeback soon making this list tougher and the fact that Ashcloud in a world of Wild Slashes, Magma Sprays, and Searing Bloods seems so much worse than Regent. Even Hangerback Walker for that matter. That being said those were probably 2 weeks ago and if this week is dragons maybe Ashcloud is just good enough to cover your bases into a control metagame.
So here was the list I ran last FNM. It went 3-1 that night, losing to abzan control.
Match 1: Temur midrange 2-0
Both games went relatively fast. Opponent (who was on the play for 2 games) turns on both games were T1 elf, T2 caryatid, T3 xenagos. I had anger both games so I just wiped board on my turn 3 and a hasted knuckleblade on T4 to kill xenagos. Followed by a T5 stormbreath and T6 sarkhan, the games were easily sealed.
Match 2: UG Turbofog tutelage 2-0
Started game 1 with T3 knux, T4 regent. The rest of the turns were spent on burn/counters until opponent's tutelage is just too slow. Game 2 I had back to nature in and just wiped the monastery siege, dictate of kruphix and tutelage (tutelage was cast the same turn). Swing with stormbreath and opponent just doesnt have a hard removal to deal with it.
Match 3: Abzan control (1-2)
Game 1 was spent on explosive starts. T1 denial thoughtseize, T2 jet/scry, T3/T4 scorn charm and thoughtseize, T5 regent, T6 stormbreath. Game 2 I was stuck on 4 lands and I don't feel comfortable casting my spells without mana for denial, knowing that black has a lot of hard removal. Opponent eventually got an elspeth out with me stuck at nothing. Game 3 was very similar to game 2. My only mistake was I sided out 2 angers thinking that opponent has sided out elspeth after I scorned one the previous game.
Match 4: Temur midrange 2-0
Game 1 was very fast. Opponent was stuck on 3 lands, 1 mystic, 2 caryatid. T3 anger pretty much closed out the game. Game 2 opponent has T1 mystic, T2 caryatid, T3 hornet nest, T4 xenagos and I had no creatures. Had to anger to clear board though nest exploded and xenagos was able to summon regent. I summon regent on my turn and then traded it with the opposing regent. Next turn opponent's xenagos pumps out a hornet queen so pretty much everything is locked up. Anticipate at eot for anger, wipe board then slash xenagos. Next turn opponent's xenagos summoned a satyr and attacked. Next turn I swung a hasted knux on xenagos to kill it. Opponent then summoned top decked polukranos. I top deck kiora and had kiora lock down polukranos. Eventually summoned stormbreath dragon, burnt enemy then crater's claws.
Changes:
Aetherspouts just seemed too slow for me, replaced with draconic roar. Why only 1 roar? Well I can't find my 2nd roar so that's it.
Thoughts:
I'm not seeing how useful temur charm is for the current meta at my place. It just seems too slow. I'd rather replace those with a slash and a denial. 2 denial is just too few to have a fast-paced game. Magma spray is perfect. It burns opponents and it lets you set up your next draw. It's small advantages like this that I prefer over raw power. 2 crater's claws is very good for my burn-counter oriented list. 1 is good but 2 is where I want it at. And is Surrak really needed? I haven't seen any UB/esper control lists in the last few weeks and I haven't needed his trample against thopters. For me, killing scissors is more important that powering through thopters. That doesn't mean I'd let thopters get to critical mass though.
Yeah everything you described is what happens when you play a lot of spells and not enough threats. I understand it's intentional but it's really hard for a deck with expensive spells to effectively play a tempo game purely off spells. You guys keep posting these almost control like lists but let's face it, we do not really have control in these colors. There is no room for missing stuff. You have to have the spells line up right and leave no room. If you are a better player than most of your opponents you hard effort will probably pay off, but if your opponent gets around it the deck has no safety valve something every control deck needs. These lists remind of when a formats new and mono red is king and people bring out GW Lifegain as a deck. The GW Lifegain deck is really good in that field, and is even passable against control because it has a lot of creatures that can attack that are slightly bigger. But it has no real power so when a proactive real deck comes along it looks like it does absolutely nothing and gets completely crushed.
There is a big reason why UR is almost never a deck in Standard unless their is a combo or engine that it can be built around. Those are the most do nothing colours in magic together. The rare exceptions is if you are basically playing a blue heavy creature deck with a red splash. You add the 3rd colour it can be wildly different since both colours provide great elements, but UR on it's own is really good if you are satisfied by some perverted notion of whipping your deck out and shuffling it in front of people. Maybe your opponent likes to watch. Where RUG is different is it is generally G first.. it's GRu or GUr because outside of Tarmogoyf in Legacy which is an insane rate the green splash adds things that are unneeded. Red already has big creatures in dragons. It just doesn't have the biggest creatures along the curve or a way to accelerate. This usually means green is a key part of the mana if you are looking for that.
So back to the heavy spell versions. If the opponent lands one good threat and has permission backed up.. Or let's say they land a Siege Rhino do you really have time to play around these games. It's like playing Abzan Control with worse cards outside of the control mirror. You are probably slightly better against green devotion too, but it's arguable because you can also just draw the wrong parts of the deck and never be able to come back. Can you picture if your opponent ever had Denial for that Anger or you didn't have Anger. There is such a huge chance that event looks completely different. SImilarly what if they T2 Knucks.. and Anger did nothing. Or if someone was wise enough to expect knuckleblade after anger when they see Temur colours and just leave their Token back on an open board. I do it all the time. Knuckleblade generally doesn't beat Xenagos... I'd rather be the person who just had my board wiped with the Xenagos than the person with Knuckleblade most of the time.
The problem comes in if you stumble and don't have the right answer in a deck like this you might be left holding up the wrong answer instead of promoting your gameplan. You need so many spells because the deck needs a variety and density of answers since none of the answers are that good universally. In Abzan it's pretty easy to play less 1 of this etc.. it's like 4 Abzan Charm no brainer.. Maybe 3 Heroes Downfall etc.. There is this consistency there. Even if you answer you need to be ready to pounce afterwards. Knuckleblade is good there. The unfortunate part is if they don't bite, because they've already recognized on pure colour basis they are advantaged you might have a hard time. What if they just don't play anything except EoT draw cards with Abzan Charm and keep up removal. I don't know if Temur Control can even walk toe to toe with Abzan card for card. I find Abzan matchups easy because I can always force their hand and basically break their pattern and time walk them to get very far ahead. If you aren't doing anything they care about maybe they just don't fall for the cheap tricks. And that is the real concern here, since their is this deficit of real power in UR the tricks are always cheap tricks and usually if expected quite easy to play around. Your opponent is in no real fear of you doing something devastating. WHat's the worst thing that can happen you counter a spell, or Aetherspout them. Your spells aren't any cheaper or more efficient so outside of counter, Knucks sort of line you don't get ahead and if they don't fall for the counter.. well nothing happens and maybe their bigger spells are better.
I always lament Temur Charms power in that it looks like it's a decent card but it isn't ever really. But maybe it's the perfect analog here. The card epitomizes the exact problem with play Temur in this fashion. The card is pretty decent trick to build on something and it can be a blow out, but generally nothing it does is just quite powerful enough and it's overcosted for the type of deck that would want to use that sort of plan. What you end up with a card that actually feels like less than the sum of it's parts because it's cost invalidates it.
Ok this is what I'm on right now. I realized that most of the value that I was getting from Woodland Bellower was better served as Sarkhan Unbroken. You want Bellower to up quantity of very specific hate cards but you don't want to lean on it. The sideboard plan is starting to come together now. I'm not sure I need the 2nd Rec Sage in the board but consider this list.
EDIT: I won an 8 man yesterday with the list above, so it felt not bad. Abzan Beastmater was a bit of a dud, so I started testing Reverent Hunter to good results. But I wanted to see how much more I could take it. I may have gone off the deep end but I figured if I'm making the investment I am why not push it even harder. Consider this list:
Yeah I mean I went to Reality Shift before asking the question, and it's ok, it's just it's a matter of realistically how many slots can I take. Temur Charm is interesting. I really want that card to be good, maybe it finally is but up to this point it hasn't been even passable. It's been horrendous. The only way to really compensate that though might be generating more mana like my current list does. But having to have already landed one of the bigger bombs by the time it is active is a bit awkward. That might still give a decent enough window. The fact it's a counter spell as well that behaves similar to Clash which appears good enough for me right now might be close enough.
Ugin is the other option. This one I haven't tried. It might actually be really good against those decks, although you basically lose you whole board if you want to prevent Tragic Arrogance from being a thing. I would really have to see what sort of timing. If Perplexing Chimera was not an enchantment I'd seriously consider it. That's the sort of going deep I was hoping for. Dromoka's Command is so prevalent. I've been really trying to make an enchantment less Temur deck.
@sleepystoner: Love the card choices. Have a real hard time with the mana. 13 Red is insufficient for Phoenix, maybe that's fine, but it's even fringe problematic for Thunderbreak. 9 Blue is insufficient for Knuckleblade. Basically your 3 drops are never set to play on 3 let alone on 2 unless you land Rattleclaw and they don't kill it which is pretty much not happening right now unless you are against GW I guess. Basically this deck will stumble early on mana such a high percentage of the time the investment on those early threats will be very awkward. To play a deck that greedy on costs you would at minimum need 3 Shivan Reef Cutting the basic Island and 2 Mountains for it. I would also probably trade a Forest for a Mana Confluence. Even then though you'd be short on red. To really take advantage of Phoenix you want 16-18 red. Which gets you in a range where you probably want 1 or 2 lands of the Rugged Highland variety(if you are skipping temples). You don't
The mana probably should look like this to cover your colours:
3 Forest
2 Mountain
4 Yavimaya Coast
3 Shivan Reef
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Mana Confluence
4 Frontier Biovac
1 Rugged Highland
1 Swift Water Cliffs
I'm thinking some Swift Water Cliffs over the Reefs due to pain, but they are so much worse than temples it's probably best to keep the taplands at 6. If mana confluence is a problem I'd put in 1 more Rugged Highland for it.
Hey just trying to piece together my sideboard. Pretty happy main deck... I'd say I'm like 58 cards happy main. But I have noted one flaw with my plan. The combination of Dromoka and Tragic Arrogance. Dromoka by itself is manageable. Tragic Arrogance by itself is easy. But since my way to deal with expensive stuff is to counter it, it means that I now actually have to pack a couple ways to deal with Dromoka.
To your guys knowledge are there any single GRU cards that can deal with both Dromoka and Elspeth. I really want one card that can deal with any top end approach GW takes I just can't think of any other than Atarka..but that doesn't really deal with it. It just lets you attack while Stormbreath is on D (or vice versa), but you hit the same issue when Arrogance comes around. Maybe Mob Rule.. The timing for that has to be absolutely perfect though. Any other ideas. Single card that takes care of both Dromoka or Elspeth?
I like it. Red Sun Zenith is key and you keep your curve low enough you don't need the ramp. Can you win fast enough against control before they stabilize, since you don't seem to be running any real CA (outside of Emissary)? How does it play out when the games go longer? I'm just wondering how relevant the Mayor ends up being.. I mean you have some very powerful early pressure, but then you have Spellskites. And while they keep aggro and removal off your threats they aren't threats themselves in this deck until much later if you draw into a Kessig. Anyway interesting list and I'm interested in how it continues to develop.
Congrats on upping your Boros matchup in the new list. Might just be small numbers but considering what you were saying before, this is considerably better. Any trick to the sideboarding? Everything else looks pretty much where I expected numbers-wise.
The reason it's always been somewhat balanced is playing dorks requires you to play dorks which means even if you could produce some sort of redundancy between mana resources and threats (which separates you from a pure ramp deck) you had a lot of underpowered cards in your deck. Like double dork openings into Removal Spell, Pyroclasm meant that if you don't have another big threat quite often, even if it was only a 1 for 1 and a 2 for 1 the opponent basically Mind Twisted you. You drawing more dorks or lands now is not going to win the game. It wasn't necessary the 4 mana Wrath's that kept it in check but the Pyroclasms, Bonfires, Anger of the Gods etc.. See a card like Nykthos may have made the dorks too good in the sense drawing more wasn't an awkward thing.
There was a time a few years back that Dorks were almost unplayable. When Delver of Secrets was the big deck, Gut Shot as crippling. The GW deck played all 8 dorks (4 Birds, and 4 Pilgrims) and it basically couldn't beat that card. It messed up the timing too much. I guess the real problem was it was splashable. But basically from a timing/tempo perspective that is the equivalent to having 2 mana dorks in any format that has 1 mana removal. A dork being one for one on mana is acceptable, but for it to be killed by a cheaper removal spell is backbreaking since it's sole purpose is tempo. Not even really being aggressive. Casting Shock on Rattleclaw Mystic on EoT is sort of like casting a spell against mono red that states the following:
U: Gain life equal to the amount of damage target creature dealt you this turn. At the beginning of your opponent's next combat step return that creature to it's owners hand,
Just feel how backbreaking that is. That's what answer a dork for less than it's cost is basically a kin to because of the cost of playing dorks. It doesn't matter how much stronger the 3/4/5 drops are becoming. Only the cost and flexibility of the removal when looking at 2 mana dorks.
I think the best model for a 2 mana dork which we haven't seen(Sylvan Caryatid is a good 2 mana dork) would be either the following:
GG
Haste
T: Add one mana of any color (or some shard, wedge, off green color) to your mana pool.
0/1
See no more 1 to 3.. but you could still cast 2 spells on T2 if the 2nd spell is like a Shock or Stubborn Denial. Since 1 drops are pretty weak creatures generally it would have to be multi color I think since the follow up play would like be non-creature spell which green isn't abundant in. Having a difficult mana cost might fix it.
1G
Vigilance
T: Add G to your mana pool
1/3
Basically dorks would need to have 3 toughness. I think vigilance is the perfect trait for this sort of creature. Even reach is arguably enough utility. How about mana spiders?
As for a 1 mana dork I like:
G
T: Add G to your mana pool. This can only be used to play creature spells.
1/1
Even green creature spells would be acceptable I think.
In basic the key to offset say having Shock in the format is the dork needs to either not die to it or be able to play 2 spells on T2 some portion of the time. Even Rattleclaw's design to allow it act as a 3 to 6 accelerator sometimes is still borderline payoff for vulnerability. But atleast there is a payoff. If we are talking add 1 mana type creatures they need a little help.
EDIT: Just saw that Ally.. That's unfortunate.. almost right. But the creature clause negates the haste in many cases. This ally might be good enough simply because it's an ally and color fixer since the synergy of creature type rewards you. That makes it worthwhile enough to play a 1 mana ally that you could potentially cast. I'm interested to see if they expect these new dorks to see any play outside of block synergizing strategies. That was always the 1 mana dork strength. They probably will a bit but never be quite good enough. (Think Temur this whole last year).
======================================
Anyway, I'm sure there will continue to be 2 mana ramp spells, whether they be Rampant Growth or Leaf Gliders or Sylvan Scrying. Green will continue get this effect for sure. I'm sure there will be feasible green ramp decks etc. There is nothing to complain about from a green color pie perspective really. Just not being at 1 is a game changer. For all the reasons I gave above. It was largely the keystone to being able to play green as a Tempo deck since by having a relevant T1 was equivalent of being able to play 2 spells super early in the game. The certain brand of aggressive midrange deck I specialize in is all but dead without this type of card.
As did I. Birds was too powerful, in the Lightning Bolt versus Shock sense.
Mind you they don't have to balance for T3 4 drops I don't think. The real advantage of the 1-3 is that most decks aren't ready to properly react to 3 drops until they get to 3 mana themselves so using your virtual card advantage and the fact you are ahead you basically get a time walk you get to maintain until they can cast 2 spells a turn. If you get to cast 2 spells a turn first or able to stick a threat that produces value or in many cases end the game fast (which the dorks would help with as well) there is very little coming back. With 2 to 4 this isn't a problem. You don't play anything worth answering until the turn they get to 3 mana at the worst. And even then they are free to have T2 plays that probably offset the dork itself or the incremental advantage the 4 drop has to bring to even be a contender. The 4 drop you go to has to be a Planeswalker or Huntmaster, and less a Hero of Oxid Ridge or Shaman of the Great Hunt.
So this definitely "fixes" something. But what it does is more like fundamentally change how a 3rd of greens typical archetypes work. 1 to 3 is a thing. 2 to 4 can be ignored. I mean that's an oversimplification because even dork decks have historically gotten some 2-4 draws. But you remove the possibility for the strong 1-3 opening and the nut(in some cases) T3 5 drop opening. By pushing that comboish effect back a turn a lot of the free wins that are associated with these archetypes go away. You draw them into that middling 1 for 1 game that they can play but obviously not as well as a dedicated deck to do so. You force these decks to be more inconsistent towards ramp decks or to drop the dorks and just play a sort of bad aggro game that is slower without reach. Speed is what generally makes bruteforcing work.
As I mentioned in my original post it isn't a colour thing. It could be a splashability thing in that like say Black Lotus or a Mox (or Tarmogoyf) it could just fit anywhere but there is a real cost. To properly play elf you tend to need to play atleast 12 T1 untapped green sources. In a lot of decks that's half your mana sources. The rest of green isn't affected. Look at my list. Elves are most famously used to cast other colour cards early rather than Green ones, most notably Red and White cards. If this has affected green design space it's only that it's really hard to make a good green 1 drop to play over the Elf. Warden or Sunblade Elf aren't good enough. You need basically Wild Nacatl. That being said I don't think those cards are quite good enough anyway. So until they figure out what to do in the green 1/2 slot it's a bit of a void. As mentioned before 2 mana ramp is a completely different thing. The timing is completely different. They make completely different decks. For instance it's one of the main reasons Temur hasn't been a deck all year long. It's premier cards rely on tempo and heavy colour requirements and Rattleclaw is a turn too slow. Birds of Paradise or Noble Hierarch and Temur is a contender. Instead it has been the worst Clan consistently all year even if it's cards are when looking at them on the surface perfectly positioned in this metagame.
So as I said it makes a lot of sense. But we can't just cop out and just say it's only a 1 mana dork etc since generally they are things we take for granted. No longer. It's hard to find the right comparison because the effect that they have on the game is so unique. By removing them you aren't just slightly weakening a card type. Like Shock still kills a cheap creature for 1 mana, mayhe not as well as bolt which is getting to a range where going to the face is worth a card. I mean that is pretty fundamental difference but you can still get most of the affect on time. This is more like no 1 mana burn spell (I think they've done this in the past). Similarly Counterspell might have been pushed back a turn but you can still curve out with them just you are forced to diversify your answers a bit more. Or 4 vs 5 mana wrath is huge but they did it at a time where they gave us smaller cards that take out multiple permanents on the cheap. It allows the same strategies to exist with more holes and more pressure on it's removal.
Basically the archetypes that Elvish Mystic and Co promoted are an sort of annoying design space that really fights against trying to design a set. Kind of like Ux Tempo decks these style of decks tend to beat the larger versions of themselves rather than lose to them. They are the midrange deck that beat all but the largest midrange decks. So when you are trying to make a set synergy based or slow it down these archetypes ignore that. Typical anti aggro techniques don't work. Especially with the move to make sweepers more conditional they can often find a window and just bash right through middling grindy 1 for 1 decks without even subscribing to the school of value. This is very restrictive on the rest of the format. Like look at last years 2 top decks around this time Jund Monsters and Black Devotion. A deck like Jund Monsters should just lose to Devotion. They built a whole format around devotion sinergies and Monsters was like a deck that just kept on coming out ignoring everything else that was going on. In won despite itself making it a very close matchup. Look at the tools Black Devotion had and the matchup was still like 50/50. The real scary part is if there was say a 2nd suitable 1 mana dork instead of Caryatid, how much better Jund Monsters would have been.
Regardless the point is, this is a huge change. Even if not the biggest deck there is always an Elvish Mystic deck in the top 5 decks in the format. There is always one version in the competitive section like there is one Mono Red deck. It's the type of archetype that is always popular even if it isn't the best. And usually it has some sort of effect on the edges of the metagame (like red does, even when red isn't a thing). Elvish Mystic saves you from Midrange Hell from the opposite side of the that spectrum. Elvish Mystic allowed Green decks during Thragtusk Era to not play Thragtusk. Without elf that incentive largely goes away. Now there is no gate there, and we are sort of welcoming bad midrange deck we can picture. It could be fun I suppose but it will sure be different.
I'm no longer in denial and from a game design perspective. I totally get it but I wanted to pay tribute to what I consider one of the most important engines in magic history. Elvish Mystic and the like have propelled decks into the top of the Standard metagame regardless of the specific format since 1993. It was the card for the Timmy who wants to play the big threats as much as for the lone the wolf strategist that liked to hone his/her skills playing the same archetype format after format. The reason was if you wanted to brute force your opponent these 1 mana dorks were almost always a way to do so. It didn't matter if Delver of Secret's or Squadron Hawks were flying over or you were under the constant repression of the Titans or Eldrazi. Or even if the whole format was based on synergy like Devotion or Constellation. One mana dorks were basically strong enough to ignore what was going on and be a contender where they probably had no business doing so. More so as an enabler they often allowed for multi-colored decks (even if they only produced one color of mana). In this way they were more resolute in their positioning. It wasn't just like the way Craig Wescoe plays White Weenie. You could almost always work Elvish Mystic in with the best cards in the format.
I started playing Magic in 1994 (although I had some breaks) and I wouldn't say I played a one mana dork in every deck I played just the vast majority. Any one who reads my posts knows I test a decent amount so obvious I have had my hand on a lot of decks. But generally when it came to the tournament I always lean one way. There were formats where there were clearly decks where Elvish Mystic wasn't dominating. I played Caw Blade like everyone else. Although admittedly after a month of that I "improved it" by added 1 mana dorks (and green etb artifact removal) to that deck. That might be considered an extreme although it was very good in the mirror, but I wanted to establish how big of a fan I am of these cards. I sit on this forum pretty much constantly brewing aggressive green midrange strategies. This is an archetype that is basically completely fueled off 1 mana dorks. This goes back even before Zvi's infamous Fires deck. And that is the archetype that dies in a few weeks or at the very least changes unrecognizably to the future.
So I know people aren't really on this one as much and perhaps it's the general change in perspective towards WotC over the years but this is the biggest change since they stopped printing Counterspell. In fact I would say this change is actually more impactful. We all know why Counterspell got the boot. Similar to how now they are not printing unconditional wrath's at 4 mana. It was too oppressive to have something so absolute so low on the curve. It got to a point where you could curve on counterspells pretty much. At the time the threats weren't good enough to take advantage of a window when someone couldn't answer. In addition it was generally feel bad to have your spells not even resolve. Ironically in the current standard we have the closest we've had to actual Counterspell in a while (Silumgar's Scorn). But that goes to show how without the absolute thing Wizards has some room to experiment in more space. I will talk a bit about that later. But in the same way Draw Go went away or had to fundamentally change, so does green decks with the death of Elvish Mystic. I don't mean all green decks. Midrange decks like traditional Jund or Abzan are untouched. Ramp decks will generally find their way anyway as 1 mana dorks were only sometimes part of the equation. No the real losers here are Aggressive Midrange decks ala Brian Kibler etc.
I will list a few from the past years created or popularized by:
Selesnya Megamorph (Brian Kibler, 2015)
Gruul Dragons (CVM, 2015)
Jund Monsters (CVM, 2014)
Jund Unfriendly Skies (Ross Merriam, Cedric Phillips, 2013)
Naya Psuedo Pod (Brian Kibler, 2012)
Selesnya Humans (Martin Juza, 2011)
Gruul Blade Breaker (Brian Kibler, 2011)
Vengevine Naya (Brad Nelson, 2010)
Next Level Bant (Brian Kibler, 2010)
Mythic (Zvi Mowshowitz, 2010)
Boss Naya (Tom Ross, 2009)
Gruul Aggro (Jacob Van Lunen, 2008)
The list pretty much goes on all the way back to the early 2000's once we got past Urza's Block. To Zvi's Fires deck and Kibler's Dragon deck that earned him the title "Dragonmaster" back at PT Chicago in 2000.
The Power
There are several cards to where this mantle over the years. In some formats there were so many options that Elvish Mystic or Llanowar Elves it's counterpart weren't even good enough. The key thing to understand about these cards is the sheer power level. I think I will do so by reviewing all the 6 modes on these cards. In many ways they are like 1 mana Cryptic Commands or Cruel Ultimatums. In so it's very easy to see why they are too powerful to exist in Standard. I mean you shouldn't play your one drop and feel like you don't even care what's in your opponents deck. That's how I often felt playing these cards. Elspeth, Ugin, who cares. I have Elvish Mystic. These are really the Chuck Norris of magic cards. Stormcrow may have it's hype but Elvish Mystic doesn't need to fly to defeat it.
1. Duress + Timewalk
This mode is often decent against heavy removal decks. Basically because their removal spells are more expensive than your Elf you can remove a removal spell from their hand and use their mana development for the turn. You can often follow up with another dork or cheap threat and depending it creates this sort of pressure where they need to keep on answering your threats. In a one for one game they never get to draw cards or develop their board. In some cases you can keep this pressure up for the duration of the game. It isn't unlikely taking infinite turns in Vintage with Time Vault and Voltaic Key.
2. Gain ~4 Life
This might even be a conservative estimate depending on the format. But against red decks on the play, if you basically force red decks to take a turn off going to the face or deploying threats by burning the dork. You both save the life to the face from the burn spell and the attack. Ie.. If they cast Bolt instead of Goblin Guide. You saved yourself probably 7 life. This is incredible rate for a 1G card. My point is Elvish Mystic dying is a very strategic play and one of the cards biggest values.
3. Mana Battery
This one is pretty obvious. You have an extra mana and you play it. It let's you curve tigher. You can play a 4 drop and 1 drop on T4 (I assume you have 5 mana on T4). Then you untap with 6 mana (7 if you hit your 5th land). These cards really let you use your mana efficiently and be able to cast 2 spells in one turn sooner than anyone else.
4. The old 1, 3, 4
This is the premise behind Aggressive Midrange. It's the most powerful opening in the game. Some examples include:
Elvish Mystic, Domri Rade, Polukranos
Elvish Mystic, Goblin Rabblemaster, Shaman of the Great Hunt
Elvish Mystic, Strangleroot Geist, Hero of Oxid Ridge
Avacyn's Pilgrim, Mirran Crusader, Angelic Destiny or Hero of Bladehold
Avacyn's Pilgrim, Blade Splicer, Restoration Angel
Birds of Paradise, Cunning Sparkmage, Stoneforge Mystic for Basilisk Collar
Noble Hierarch, Knight of the Reliquary, Rafiq
Elvish Mystic, Gyre Sage, Burning Tree Emissary + Falkenrath Aristocrat
Elvish Mystic, Sword of War and Peace.. kill you (ok didn't really need the 4 there)
These sort of openings usually lead to T5 kills. They are incredibly fast and don't require many cards to do it.
5. The old 1, 3, 5/6
This is the double dork curve. Readily employed by decks like Mythic.
The most famous opening of this sort is:
Noble Hierarch, Cobra + Fetch + Knight of the Reliquary, Fetch + Sovereigns attack fetch Eldrazi Conscription
But I mean these are real too:
Elvish Mystic, Rattleclaw Mystic, Flip (Xenagos + Polukranos) or Dromoka
Elvish Mystic, Sylvan Caryatid, Stormbreath Dragon
Short of cheap sweepers these openers only enabled by the T1 dork present insane T3's often.
6. The body
Sometimes forgotten but these dorks were great fuel for Birth Pod or even like Evolutionary Leap as they basically cycle themselves if they've been in play a turn. They are relevant for overrun abilities like Garruk Wildspeaker. Making an Elf a 3/3 with Fires of Yavimaya wins a decent number of games. I have won many control matchups beating down with a 1/1 elf I had sandbagged after the 2nd or 3rd sweeper when we are both out of cards. Birds of Paradise with flying is a fantastic chump blocker. This comes up a decent amount of times in Pod where you can sacrifice a token to get birds to block in the air. They carry equipment well especially swords. They even sometimes trade with 1 toughness creatures.
All in all these cards are very versatile for only costing 1 mana.
The Future
I'm not really sure where this goes. I mean one could hope for conditional 1 mana dorks the same way blue still has Essence Scatter and Negate. But I mean they have to be more versatile than say Gnarlroot Trapper. They did give that card an extra ability. But can you imagine if Essence Scatter only countered say Green creatures would it see maindeck play (ironically it might right now). But you get where i'm going. They will probably have to restrict 1 mana dorks considerably. I doubt color is even enough as Elvish Mystic has proven over the years. Only being able to cast certain types of spells or having limits to turning it on. That reknown dork, Honored Hierarch is a terribly awkward card since you don't get the mana bonus til T3. When I look at that card I think would you print a counterspell that was UU Counter Target Spell unless there is an Instant or Sorcery in your Graveyard, otherwise Counter Target spell unless the opponent pays 1. It basically scales in the wrong direction. You actually might even. The problem is dorks already scale worse in the wrong direction as mana gets more plentiful.
2 Mana dorks have rarely been close to comparable to 1 mana dorks. First of all to catch up on rate they need to produce 2 mana conditionally. Lotus Cobra is really the only 2 mana dork ever to be comparable and for the most part I think 1 mana dork is better. If you look at the 6 modes above, the only thing that 2 mana dork has is the body. One mana removal especially burn pretty much negates the first 2 modes. The last time this was the norm was during the reign of Gut Shot. Even if you are on the play they can make their move, and kill your dork before you even get to tap it for mana. No more Timewalks and it halfs the life gain if it even effectively does so (since a second 1 drop and a burn spell maybe with Prowess pretty much negates it). There are no 1, 3, 4 or 1, 3, 5/6 .. it's now 1, 2, 4/5. It looks similar but you give the opponent time to kill your dork or your threat without you being ahead a threat. At 2 mana you need to be playing significantly under the curve to just fit it in as a mana battery of sorts. Basically a 2 mana dork does nothing a 1 mana dork does except produce 1 mana which wasn't really even worth mentioning on it's own for 1 mana dork. So cheap removal is a serious problem for 2 mana dorks. So Sylvan Caryatid was a good for that, but otherwise you are generally better with a Rampant Growth which also has never been good enough for aggressive midrange. Having the body for sinergy purposes whether to stem the bleeding, attacking, or draw out removal is super important for these sort of strategies. Really a 2 mana dork would have to be like a 1/3 or even a pushed to like a 2/3 to really get around these timing issues.
Anti-aggro problem is similar too. See with the 1 to 3 you can take the aggressive initative. It let's you play 4 drops that primarily attack. Where in 2 to 4 decks you need value, you need to play threats that don't just get killed. 2-4 decks have always favored planeswalkers and cards like Huntmaster of the Fells which play a good catchup game. This is fine but it's not how you play aggressive midrange. You want to slam the Dragon or the Polukranos. Size and Bruteforce are only really good if you can present a certain density. You need your 3 drop to attack through a card like Courser of Kruphix. No just sit and chill. The whole key to these decks is that you can keep creating threats to stay ahead and you find with card quality and density instead of true CA. You just win the tempo game based on Virtual Card Advantage. This allows to maximize low removal counts and really use every part of the buffalo when it comes to your threats. Basically it rewards people good at doing combat math and planning turns ahead. It's more of the skills of someone who plays an aggro deck than a midrange deck except your card quality is significantly better.
It will definitely be interesting moving forward to see where this goes. But it will for sure be very different for those have wielded the power of the mana dorks over the years. I look forward to hear your thoughts and experiences for these unreplaceable cards.
RIP Elvish Mystic, Birds of Paradise, Llanowar Elves, Avacyn's Pilgrim, Noble Hierarch, Fyndhorn Elves, Boreal Druid, Elves of the Deep Shadows
Yeah.. Kolaghan wasn't quite right.. I went back to having Den Protector in that slot. The mana cost is one thing for sure although not too bad. I mean it it doesn't always work and I guess depending on what the cards trying to do that can completely defeat the purpose. Like with Dromoka I never seem to have a problem but when you want Kolaghan you want it now. The way the deck plays out Kolaghan sort of relies on you not using your creatures as removal spells. With say a BR Dragons deck you generally use removal on the opponents threats and then find a window to jam. Whereas during those phases with Temur I find I'm trading my Dragons on because I know I have more. But it means by the time Kolaghan is good to go I could be playing Atarka. It just isn't worth it. Whereas Dromoka does something real and important that Atarka doesn't simulate.
Going back to Tri lands is probably not worth the trade up really. Part of my recent approach to the deck has been upping the temples because of how much better they are. It makes the deck feel that much clunky. That being said it was mostly since Sarkhan. Sarkhan is sort of interesting because timing wise he sets you up to win the super long battle, but not the mid battle. When you win with Sarkan it usually takes like 5-6 turns. It's an angle that isn't worth playing since the printing of Languish and Tragic Arrogance really. Abzan has no issue trading resources and buying them back. It's no longer the game where you can keep up grinding their Deathmists with Dragons. They can reset all your progress. This sort of sets me back at Den Protector since it can generally buy back a threat or a permission on the cheap. This pretty much gives you that checkmate position with decent flexibility. It's not hard for Temur Dragons to find windows to get ahead. It's maintaining that momentum in some matchups which is hard.
3 Forest
2 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Frontier Bivouac
2 Temple of Abandon
1 Temple of Mystery
2 Temple of Epiphany
4 Yavimaya Coast
2 Shivan Reef
2 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
Creature(29):
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Shaman of Forgotten Ways
2 Savage Knuckleblade
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
4 Thunderbreak Regent
4 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury
2 Surrak Dragonclaw
3 Dragonlord Atarka
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Clash of Wills
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
2 Gather Courage
2 Magma Spray
2 Reality Shift
2 Back to Nature
2 Roast
2 Den Protector
1 Arbor Colossus
2 Dragonlord Dromoka
I realized Nissa does pretty much exactly what I was using Sarkhan for. I mean I still like having 1.. but 2 is too many. Because I've opened up my mana considerably I haven't felt the need for it. That's why it's actually pretty interesting to be able to power out Kolaghan's or sideboard into Dromoka. The trickiest part of playing this deck is you have no reset switch for a midrange deck. Not everyone's cup of tea. Mind you that's not where I find I was losing. I have made this change mostly to try to improve my main deck. I found with my previous lists I was extremely favored every matchup afterboard but game 1 I'd sometimes not get there. I tend to design decks like this so I have consider that. They are basically 45% on average against the field game 1 and then like 60% after on average for game 2 and 3. I think it's mostly to do how I value you tempo by sort of hugging my opponents timing and that's really hard to do across the board in the first game. You just may not have the right cards. It's weird though I'm rarely shaving full cards unless they are like 2 ofs main.. most of the tweaks are just moving numbers around so it's not like any of the cards are bad anywhere just that it's a balance of what's slightly better to get the right timing matchup.
The board plan looks even worse against aggro perhaps but Gather Courage is just simply the best card there. If I'm playing my proactive game they can't win. It's not just about racing because permission looks out their reach and access to cards like Dromoka or Atarka just close the game way too easily. Gather is often atleast a 2 for 1 even if it looks like a 1 for 1.. in that you typically save your guy.. you might even be able to block their attacker or maybe even ward their attack. When you consider the tempo loss plus the burn to the face loss especially if they need to burn other threats now afterwards it's about a gain 7 for 1, that takes no setup. This only works if you have stuff powerful enough to ramp into, but it's definitely something to consider.
The more I look at it the more I like Dromoka. The fact that it isn't necessarily that hard to play is real. Christian had 4 lands to cast it off of, 4 Caryatid, and 2 Sarkhan. It really doesn't take anymore than that. I've been testing it the last day or so on my current mana (same list as my sig replace whisperwood). Which is 2 lands, 4 Caryatid + 3 Shaman, and 2 Sarkhan. My sources are definitely more conditional, but it makes cards like Gather Courage out of the board much better on their payout. It basically humiliates most red decks. Downside is it is pretty do nothing against Abzan Control. It's passable against Abzan Aggro. I do find it interesting that it sort of makes Dragonclaw redundant. I'm not sure that's in a bad way though. Having so many can't be countered threats makes it really difficult for control especially when you have your own counterspells. In basic Dromoka is the best card at holding the skies with Sarkhan to pull the long game. Shaman + Xenagos is still the safety switch if things try to go too long. I know I'm talking all in context of my list but I can't help but feel while the posted list does some good things it's only leveraging part of the card which adds quite a different element to a lot of matchups.
Yep, although really only the red variety. I imagine mono black aggro would be just awkward enough but I could be wrong. I'm not considering Abzan or Jeskai Aggro as aggro in this comparison since they are really midrange decks. Firstly I'm going to say those 2 last removal slots are usually removal that can be used in red matchups. Usually I do find I need a certain threshold of burn spells. Different Temur decks need different things. I've played around with a few of the options but Anger never worked well for me in a deck that is at all ambitious on curve since I wanted to side out my x/4's generally and really 5 is where I tended to want to stop against decks I could rely on my dorks with. The way I actually beat those red decks is usually Atarka and being able to counter their burn to the face. That takes your dorks surviving. Gather Courage is possibly the best anti red counter spell. That being said I'm a dog game 1 unless I just get there and I'm depending on the opponent having red removal. I played against Boros and honestly it was my Bellower for Rec Sage that made a huge difference there, so this is being a bit narrow. As long as mono red is the only real aggro deck I don't think it's too hard to push this sort of plan. I've always played the aggro matchups close rather than really trying to control the game. They need to burn you out generally so my Stubborn Denials may only be gain 4's instead of 10's. But I can much easier play more of these type of cards without dedicated cards.
Feed the Clan I toyed with a bit but I never could stick with it because it was a special purpose counterspell like Gather Courage was. The difference was it required more setup. Where there were plenty of games Gather would make the difference and similarly I wouldn't be able to get Feed online til my back was already against the wall and they had some anti life gain card. The timing never worked for me, but everyone plays their lines a bit different.
Surrak is good in a land of Dromoka's Command (and by extension usually Ultimate Price). When size matters he's a rate you can't ignore. It means that Surrak has really only 1 truly bad matchup and it's Abzan Control. That's enough to delegate the card to sideboard for me but he's finally decently positioned. I'm not too surprised Sarkhan wasn't right in that list mind you as I suggested in my last comment. I was comparing Sarkhan to See the Unwritten and that's actually the right sort of way of looking at it. I don't think the deck can afford 6 See the Unwritten. Unless you are significantly ahead on presence can you really play Sarkhan. You need an additional creature to his dragon for each creature the opponent controls, and Languish a is a real issue so you usually can't just play it into Siege Rhino or if you do, draw a card (again only when you have additional blocker. Sarkhan is slow too. You play it to have a gradual CA engine typically. It's better than Whisperwood when you pack permission but it doesn't protect your board. You play cards like this when you need some value in the mid-late game so that you don't just 1 for 1'd out of the game as punishment for the amount of mana you play.
I think your existing list is pretty good, there are a few metagame calls for the cards to test but most of them won't be good enough unless you have a specific need for certain interactions. Something Magma Spray or Hornet's Nest are those sort of cards but might be completely unnecessary. Although in my opinion Deflecting Palm versus exile isn't even a debate. Every random Ashcloud or Flamewake Phoenix, Hangarback, Den Protector, Bloodsoaked Champion. None of these may be a real thing right now, but they've all been more of a thing than Deflecting Palm ever has outside of that Draft to Constructed Boros player or think I'm too clever Jeskai player at the local FNM. Shaman is sometimes a "dead" draw but the payout if early is so huge it is a real consideration. Your top end is less ambitious than mine so it's less worth it definitely. Especially because it can't fuel Claws. Part of the reason I play so fat is I needed more payout to be worth playing that card for me that involved going up to 8 5 drops. That being said I guess it's a bit similar to Claws the incentive for me is basically casting creatures at a great discount and leaving up Clash of Wills.
As for myself I'm done with gimmicky approaches. You need to try them out at the beginning of each format, but for me Woodland Bellower is a bust for now. Until Nykthos and Genesis Hydra go away. Don't get me wrong. The card is decent with the right support. But the best play really was T1 Elf, T2 Shaman of the Forgotten Ways, T3 Bellower + Reverent Hunter as a 6/6. This is a powerful opening to be sure but drawing the Hunter was awkward, and playing more than one Hunter was awkward. Basically Deathmist, Knuckles, and Hunter were all the same card slightly different so unless there was an enchantment you really wanted to kill nothing really stood out as a target. And the inconsistency of drawing the Reclamation Sage or Elf, Hunter, all Dragons opener was enough to make it not as powerful as it needed to be. If it was always the biggest game in town I could live with that variance but Nykthos says otherwise.
Mind you some good stuff came out of that. Like I like Whisperwood better than the 3rd or 4th Sarkhan. Shaman of the Forgotten Ways is like Lotus Cobra (and is an x/3). I never thought I'd like a Dreamweaver Druid but this one has been good (I'm sure until I run into Draconic Roar.dec). Obviously it isn't as good as Cobra but it gives you that play ahead of the curve leave permission up angle that I miss from Cobra days. Those lines are usually much better than jamming Bellower at 6. Playing a 5 drop and leaving up Denial is much more potent usually.. I want my mana to survive so Caryatid is back.
The other thing was I got a good feel of how far I could stretch the mana with Knuckles. I side Knuckles out a lot but he's the best intermediate play now I think so I'm going to jam him. The trick though is play 25 lands. I've been on that before but I wasn't playing enough Temples. I'm trying to shift around the base again.
3 Forest
2 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Frontier Bivouac
2 Temple of Abandon
1 Temple of Mystery
2 Temple of Epiphany
4 Yavimaya Coast
3 Shivan Reef
2 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
Creature(26):
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Shaman of Forgotten Ways
2 Savage Knuckleblade
4 Thunderbreak Regent
4 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Dragonlord Dromoka
3 Dragonlord Atarka
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Clash of Wills
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
2 Sarkhan Unbroken
2 Gather Courage
2 Magma Spray
1 Unravel the Aether
1 Reality Shift
2 Back to Nature
2 Roast
1 Hornet Nest
1 Barrage of Boulders
2 Surrak Dragonclaw
1 Arbor Colossus
I have 2 free sideboard spots right now. Mainly that this list is probably like 75% against Abzan Control. Whisperwood gives the dragons even more wrath protection, and allows you to even sandbag them against Elspeth. Roast might be what I want against Abzan Aggro but the matchup is already reasonable. I've been finding this list pretty good across the board but it really sticks out how good it is against Abzan. The trickiest part is if they have Dromoka they will bring it in against you because of the permission. Which means that Dromoka Tragic Arrogance is a thing. Mind you if they are missing either side they fall easily. The permission main makes control decent too. Basically the last 2 spots are probably removal spells, like Roast or more Magma Sprays. I was considering Draconic Roar other than I usually side out my Stormbreaths against decks that I really need more burn, so unless Abzan Aggro or Jeskai are problematic I don't see it. It's possible I'm just supposed to play some awkward cards versus fliers like Arbor Colossus or Plummet. Colossus + Surrak are even decent upper end subs against red aggro given their 6 toughness and even Dromoka's Command decks, since outside of pure GW Deathmist is on a bit of a decline and Knuckleblade does nothing a lot of times in both places.
So the way I see it is you either have to play Dromoka or Ugin or cater to removing it. However outside of Dromoka, permission deals with every other top end threat including Ugin. So in Temur Dragons it was a sort of given to me. However that 4 color list is interesting. It feels even better paired with the permission than my list. The burn might be wasted on it. It has this manic thing where it attacks in 2 phases but doesn't really have a bridge. That will work generally if you can keep the pressure on long enough while you draw the mana to get to plan 2, however if you get there and you kept the pressure up why haven't you won? I have the same issue trying to justify Atarka. But I can force a bigger window. If the opponent just Hero's your Dromoka or End Hostilities it's unlikely even Ugin gets you back or a couple Draconic Roars since if they were good enough you would have won the game already.
EDIT: Updated my list above.. Trying something a little greedier but it's hard to deny the pure card quality. I mean no deck has more dragons.
Yeah before Bellower was legal I was sort of playing a deck like this to see if I thought it could feasible. My concern was of course running into Counterspells. I decided after a little testing I'd just have to wait for Bellower because setting up See the Unwritten took considerably my work. Like if I got a good dork draw I usually didn't want to slam it T4 if you could play a ferocious creature first whereas Bellower you most certainly would. Like you'd rather sandbag a Stormbreath in many situations than a Bellower, and See the Unwritten sort of forces your hand if you want to up your odds. Ultimately it was a counterspell issue with control and the matchup felt close but slightly unfavorable which I wasn't comfortable with at the time. I could be more comfortable with it recently but I generally prefer playing decks that show control decks whose their master. It was hard to play the right tools to make it even on the positive side. Obviously the first things you board out are the See the Unwrittens, but it went beyond that and was sort of fundamental to me making the shift to only counterspell reactive spells main. Basically you always want a deck right now (and even then) that has the ability to stop decks from going all in faster than you for a trivial opportunity cost. This means an ability to take out a T2 Ensoul or that Ascendancy etc or even that Stoke or opposing See the Unwritten or Atarka. Sarkhan is good in the deck, to enable Ferocity, but is the deck actually better off with Dragons over Whisperwood when it relies on it's board so much. Don't get me wrong I'm playing the exact same game. Seeing how much I can borrow from GR Devotion without getting stuck ground pounding and not being able to close games fast enough. But we can't depend on being faster in the head to head, and we should consider if the tradeoff makes us better in other matchups (like control which has been a weakness of Devotion).
The most interesting stuff to me is the tension between the fact that Control has to be making a comeback soon making this list tougher and the fact that Ashcloud in a world of Wild Slashes, Magma Sprays, and Searing Bloods seems so much worse than Regent. Even Hangerback Walker for that matter. That being said those were probably 2 weeks ago and if this week is dragons maybe Ashcloud is just good enough to cover your bases into a control metagame.
Yeah everything you described is what happens when you play a lot of spells and not enough threats. I understand it's intentional but it's really hard for a deck with expensive spells to effectively play a tempo game purely off spells. You guys keep posting these almost control like lists but let's face it, we do not really have control in these colors. There is no room for missing stuff. You have to have the spells line up right and leave no room. If you are a better player than most of your opponents you hard effort will probably pay off, but if your opponent gets around it the deck has no safety valve something every control deck needs. These lists remind of when a formats new and mono red is king and people bring out GW Lifegain as a deck. The GW Lifegain deck is really good in that field, and is even passable against control because it has a lot of creatures that can attack that are slightly bigger. But it has no real power so when a proactive real deck comes along it looks like it does absolutely nothing and gets completely crushed.
There is a big reason why UR is almost never a deck in Standard unless their is a combo or engine that it can be built around. Those are the most do nothing colours in magic together. The rare exceptions is if you are basically playing a blue heavy creature deck with a red splash. You add the 3rd colour it can be wildly different since both colours provide great elements, but UR on it's own is really good if you are satisfied by some perverted notion of whipping your deck out and shuffling it in front of people. Maybe your opponent likes to watch. Where RUG is different is it is generally G first.. it's GRu or GUr because outside of Tarmogoyf in Legacy which is an insane rate the green splash adds things that are unneeded. Red already has big creatures in dragons. It just doesn't have the biggest creatures along the curve or a way to accelerate. This usually means green is a key part of the mana if you are looking for that.
So back to the heavy spell versions. If the opponent lands one good threat and has permission backed up.. Or let's say they land a Siege Rhino do you really have time to play around these games. It's like playing Abzan Control with worse cards outside of the control mirror. You are probably slightly better against green devotion too, but it's arguable because you can also just draw the wrong parts of the deck and never be able to come back. Can you picture if your opponent ever had Denial for that Anger or you didn't have Anger. There is such a huge chance that event looks completely different. SImilarly what if they T2 Knucks.. and Anger did nothing. Or if someone was wise enough to expect knuckleblade after anger when they see Temur colours and just leave their Token back on an open board. I do it all the time. Knuckleblade generally doesn't beat Xenagos... I'd rather be the person who just had my board wiped with the Xenagos than the person with Knuckleblade most of the time.
The problem comes in if you stumble and don't have the right answer in a deck like this you might be left holding up the wrong answer instead of promoting your gameplan. You need so many spells because the deck needs a variety and density of answers since none of the answers are that good universally. In Abzan it's pretty easy to play less 1 of this etc.. it's like 4 Abzan Charm no brainer.. Maybe 3 Heroes Downfall etc.. There is this consistency there. Even if you answer you need to be ready to pounce afterwards. Knuckleblade is good there. The unfortunate part is if they don't bite, because they've already recognized on pure colour basis they are advantaged you might have a hard time. What if they just don't play anything except EoT draw cards with Abzan Charm and keep up removal. I don't know if Temur Control can even walk toe to toe with Abzan card for card. I find Abzan matchups easy because I can always force their hand and basically break their pattern and time walk them to get very far ahead. If you aren't doing anything they care about maybe they just don't fall for the cheap tricks. And that is the real concern here, since their is this deficit of real power in UR the tricks are always cheap tricks and usually if expected quite easy to play around. Your opponent is in no real fear of you doing something devastating. WHat's the worst thing that can happen you counter a spell, or Aetherspout them. Your spells aren't any cheaper or more efficient so outside of counter, Knucks sort of line you don't get ahead and if they don't fall for the counter.. well nothing happens and maybe their bigger spells are better.
I always lament Temur Charms power in that it looks like it's a decent card but it isn't ever really. But maybe it's the perfect analog here. The card epitomizes the exact problem with play Temur in this fashion. The card is pretty decent trick to build on something and it can be a blow out, but generally nothing it does is just quite powerful enough and it's overcosted for the type of deck that would want to use that sort of plan. What you end up with a card that actually feels like less than the sum of it's parts because it's cost invalidates it.
3 Forest
2 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Frontier Bivouac
2 Temple of Abandon
2 Temple of Epiphany
4 Yavimaya Coast
2 Shivan Reef
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
Creature(26):
4 Elvish Mystic
3 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Shaman of Forgotten Ways
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2 Savage Knuckleblade
1 Abzan Beastmaster
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Thunderbreak Regent
4 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Woodland Bellower
2 Dragonlord Atarka
2 Stubborn Denial
1 Magma Spray
1 Crater's Claws
2 Clash of Wills
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
2 Sarkhan Unbroken
2 Gather Courage
1 Magma Spray
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Roast
2 Reality Shift
2 Back to Nature
2 Hornet Nest
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Surrak Dragonclaw
1 Mob Rule
EDIT: I won an 8 man yesterday with the list above, so it felt not bad. Abzan Beastmater was a bit of a dud, so I started testing Reverent Hunter to good results. But I wanted to see how much more I could take it. I may have gone off the deep end but I figured if I'm making the investment I am why not push it even harder. Consider this list:
3 Forest
3 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Frontier Bivouac
1 Temple of Abandon
4 Yavimaya Coast
3 Shivan Reef
2 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
Creature(29):
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
3 Shaman of Forgotten Ways
2 Deathmist Raptor
1 Reverent Hunter
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Thunderbreak Regent
4 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Whisperwood Elemental
2 Woodland Bellower
3 Dragonlord Atarka
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Clash of Wills
2 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Sarkhan Unbroken
2 Gather Courage
2 Magma Spray
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Roast
2 Reality Shift
2 Back to Nature
2 Hornet Nest
1 Barrage of Boulders
2 Surrak Dragonclaw
Ugin is the other option. This one I haven't tried. It might actually be really good against those decks, although you basically lose you whole board if you want to prevent Tragic Arrogance from being a thing. I would really have to see what sort of timing. If Perplexing Chimera was not an enchantment I'd seriously consider it. That's the sort of going deep I was hoping for. Dromoka's Command is so prevalent. I've been really trying to make an enchantment less Temur deck.
@sleepystoner: Love the card choices. Have a real hard time with the mana. 13 Red is insufficient for Phoenix, maybe that's fine, but it's even fringe problematic for Thunderbreak. 9 Blue is insufficient for Knuckleblade. Basically your 3 drops are never set to play on 3 let alone on 2 unless you land Rattleclaw and they don't kill it which is pretty much not happening right now unless you are against GW I guess. Basically this deck will stumble early on mana such a high percentage of the time the investment on those early threats will be very awkward. To play a deck that greedy on costs you would at minimum need 3 Shivan Reef Cutting the basic Island and 2 Mountains for it. I would also probably trade a Forest for a Mana Confluence. Even then though you'd be short on red. To really take advantage of Phoenix you want 16-18 red. Which gets you in a range where you probably want 1 or 2 lands of the Rugged Highland variety(if you are skipping temples). You don't
The mana probably should look like this to cover your colours:
3 Forest
2 Mountain
4 Yavimaya Coast
3 Shivan Reef
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Mana Confluence
4 Frontier Biovac
1 Rugged Highland
1 Swift Water Cliffs
I'm thinking some Swift Water Cliffs over the Reefs due to pain, but they are so much worse than temples it's probably best to keep the taplands at 6. If mana confluence is a problem I'd put in 1 more Rugged Highland for it.
To your guys knowledge are there any single GRU cards that can deal with both Dromoka and Elspeth. I really want one card that can deal with any top end approach GW takes I just can't think of any other than Atarka..but that doesn't really deal with it. It just lets you attack while Stormbreath is on D (or vice versa), but you hit the same issue when Arrogance comes around. Maybe Mob Rule.. The timing for that has to be absolutely perfect though. Any other ideas. Single card that takes care of both Dromoka or Elspeth?