Very cool Goblin for sure. He might see play in my Goblin deck, but figuring what to take out to play him might be a bit tricky when all the 2 drop slots are already taken up by Goblin Instigator and Goblin Bushwhacker, both of which being definitely worth their double R cost. I really feel like Ember Hauler should have either been 1R or just had the sac for 2 damage option at no cost to be fully worth his double R CMC.
Still a very cool card though! I know I'll find some way to work him into a deck at some point
I'm quite happy to see the return of Goblin Balloon Brigade and Ember Hauler is quite cool as well. He's like a double Mogg Fanatic, but a touch over costed at having to pay 1 colorless on top of sac'ing him to do damage. Good to see Prodigal Pyromancer is back as well, I've got a lot of love for that little pinger.
Now what I'm really hoping to see is a couple red 2/1 for 1 mana creatures (crossing fingers that Jackal Pup may return someday), some cheaper 2R or so land destruction spells, and an inexpensive creature of some kind incorporating the Scry mechanic. If all those ever come together I think Red could return to being the dominant force in competitive again
And oh yeah, some kind of answer for Baneslayer would be nice as well.
Goblin Deathraiders : Every once in a while, when they aren't getting incinerated in lava, crushed under rock slides, or devoured by dragons, goblins experience moments of unmitigated glory in battle.
I love the flavor of both of them and a turn 3 Kargan in a mono red deck is a threat that must be answered or he quickly becomes a game winner. It's just a shame I haven't found any seriously competitive way to play Transcendent Master yet.
Great concept with the whole weenie flood idea! It could work really well, and I think Raid Bombardment is the one card that would really put this deck over the top.
Thanks for all the advice and input everyone!
I think the point of this deck for me is that I've been really wanting to try out some kind of creatureless deck strategy that didn't involve spending huge $$$ on Planeswalkers, and having never played a solid burn deck this seems like it could be fun. While I definitely see the practical application of using burn-on-a-stick creatures like Ball Lightning and Hells Thunder, it does somewhat defeat the idea I was going for with this deck so I'll likely give it a try without them.
popsofctown - I like Chandra in this theoretical deck because she allows for a number of different options. I never expect her to last past 1 or 2 turns before being removed, but in those 2 turns she can do some interesting things. For one, you can discard a number of low cost burn spells that would normally do less than 4 damage and make them do 4 instead. Or if your hand has run dry (and hopefully in this situation you're playing a control deck with a hand full of carefully selected cards) you can force your opponent to discard and refill your hand with 3 fresh cards to work with. So in that sense... yeah, ghetto Wheel of Fortune :lol: If she stays around long enough to go ultimate than great, but I can't imagine her lasting more than a turn or two with no creatures to defend her. And in that case perhaps her 6CMC cost is far too expensive for what she offers, but that's something I have yet to determine. She just seemed like the right fit for a burn deck you know?
musiquev - Thanks for all the advice! You're definitely right about the Dragon's Claw and Seer's Sundial slowing the deck down, which is problematic in a deck that wants to burn the opponent out as quickly as possible before it gets overrun by creatures or locked down by Planeswalkers. Unfortunately it seems to me like running Howling Mine and/or Font of Mythos would just fuel the opponent's machine as well, most likely ending up with them getting more creatures on the board each turn before you can burn them out. It's for that reason that I've been reluctant to include anything that increases the opponent's draw potential.
And I'm hesitant to remove Dragon's Claw from the main deck just because in the little testing I've had a chance to do with this deck it seemed to be the only thing keeping me alive long to cast the finishing burn spell. But perhaps your right, if I main decked a larger quantity of sweepers that might help me stay in the game a good while longer. And you're certainly right on Forked Bolt, I run it in my Devastating Red deck and I love it, just not too sure where to fit it into this one. Thanks again for all the great advice!
Exarch - LOL! Wow... how did I not notice that. Unstable Footing is a Lava Axe, with added benefits! I've had 4 of that card sitting in my sideboard for a month now and somehow I just never noticed that it was infact a Lava Axe. Thanks a lot for pointing that one out to me!
Ryoka - Well... fudge o_O
All in all it may be entirely possible that a creatureless deck that isn't Supercashmoney Planeswalkers can't be at all competitive, but I do think it's worth continuing to brain storm about and I thank everyone for all the ideas and points they've contributed!
I'm a mono red player and as such I've found myself playing Devastating Red over, and over, and over the past month or so at FNM. And well, I'm getting a bit bored of it and pondering options for a second deck to play around with.
The idea I've been toying with is a creatureless burn deck that might actually stand a chance of going 2-2 at FNM against a meta filled with U/W Control, U/W/R Planeswalker Control, and Jund. I'd really appreciate it if people could throw out ideas on this concept and help determine what might work, what might not work, and with any luck maybe we can come up with something feasible to play around with and maybe even win a few matches.
Now this is just a preliminary concept and I've yet to test it, so it's really just at the idea stage at this point. A few notes about some of the more odd card choices...
Seer's Sundial - Capable of giving you card advantage without giving your opponent additional draws as well (unlike Howling Mine).
Dragon's Claw - Without much in the way of creature sweepers (the 3 Earthquake aside) it's likely you're going to take a good bit of damage before being able to drop the finishing burn spell on your opponent. Dragon's Claw is there to hopefully help you stay in the game long enough to deal the finishing blow.
Fireball - While Banefire is likely a better choice in a meta filled with U/W Control, I'm a cheapskate and Banefire is going to rotate out in a few months whereas Fireball is coming back in M11 so it's just a personal long term decision to run Fireball over Banefire.
The only other thing you may think is odd about this list is the absence of Quest for Pure Flame or Pyromancer Ascension. While I like these enchantments a lot, it seems like the meta these days (at least mine) has O-Rings running rampant and just about everyone playing Blue has Unsummon maindecked or sideboarded to deal with levelers and any enchantment with counters on it. So in light of that I'm thinking maybe it would be best to avoid Quest for Pure Flame or Pyromancer Ascension, at least until Alara rotates out.
I've also been thinking that Surreal Memoir could definitely have a place in this deck as an alternative to or addition to Seer's Sundial for generating card advantage, but I'm not too sure where it would fit in and what to take out to put it in.
My hope is that with all the very nice burn spells in the current Standard environment that perhaps a creatureless burn deck might be viable. Any ideas or suggestions on the matter would be much appreciated!
I'm really happy to see Lightning Bolt and Fireball coming back. LB is one of (if not the) best burn spell Red has ever had access too, and Fireball is just a classic finisher for the burn decks and midrange red in general.
On the other hand... words that will not be uttered here were shouted when I saw the bane of my existence coming back. As a mono red player and someone who feels $50 for a card is just insane I think Baneslayer was the #1 card that I was nearly praying wouldn't return in M11. So not too happy about that one. But if I'm totally honest with myself I have to admit something... Baneslayer is stupidly awesome and if I had a set I would break my tradition of red and play white
They both have their uses, so I run 3 of each. Peaks is a great early play, especially on turn 2 or 3 when you've got a Goblin Guide out. Spires on the other hand is a great play later on turn 4, 5, etc. when your opponent likely has some kind of creature out (that you haven't burned yet or don't want to spend the burn on) and you want to go to the face with a pumped Kiln Fiend, Geopede, or Summons/Bushwhacker combo.
So instead of choosing one over the other I just run both. 4 of each was a little too much and created occasional bad opening hands with too many CIPT lands, but 3 of each seems just right. In the few weeks I've been playing with 3 of each I've never had a problem with opening hands having too many CIPT lands or drawing too many of them either.
In short, I think the best solution is a few of each
Thanks pounder!
Glad to hear I'm not the only one who has had trouble with Staggershock's cost. I can definitely see the advantage of maindecking Flame Slash if your meta has lots of WoO floating around, even if it can't go to the face. I suppose fortunately for me my meta seems to have very little WoO, at this point I've only encountered it once in the past month and that was against Super Friends. In that match I just dropped Spires and then hit with Guide, Fiend, and a bunch of burn to the dome for the win.
There is one downside of dropping Staggershock that I hadn't previously considered though. My particular Dev Red build basically has 4 ways to win...
1. Summons & Bushwhacker combo
2. Kiln Fiend & cheap burn combo
3. Leveled up Kargan
4. Burn, burn, burn to the dome
By dropping Staggershock altogether it greatly hinders option 4. Staggershock is great for that option because you can hit with 4 damage with a single 3 CMC card. I can recall 4 different occasions in which the Summons & Bushwhacker combo didn't come together and all my big damage dealing creatures (Kargan & Fiend) got pathed, purged, O-ring'd, or doom blade'd when the opponent was down to 10 or so life and the only way I could win at that point was by unloading burn to the dome. And I was able to win 3 out of 4 of those games, even after Gideon and/or Jace were online in one case, but I think it was only because I either had a Staggershock in hand along with some other burn or was able to top deck a Staggershock.
The point being that when your important creatures all get hit with removal and your down to just burn, Staggershock can be a game winner despite it's 3 CMC cost that tends not to synergize well with the creature package I'm running.
It's times like this that I really wish we we still had Incinerate or some other 3 damage for 2 CMC card available. Just to have some kind of middle ground between 2 damage for 1 CMC and 4 damage for 3 CMC.
After running my Devastating Red build with Kiln Fiend at FNM and small local DCI sanctioned mini tournaments over the past 3 weeks or so I'm starting to come to the conclusion that Staggershock is the one weak card in this deck. Don't get me wrong, Staggershock is a great card and 3 mana for 4 damage to the face or creatures over the course of 2 turns is very nice. But the problem I've been having with it is that it's 3 mana cost seems to be curved too high for a deck that aims to win by turn 5 (preferably turn 3 or 4) and is already chocked full of options for plays on turns 3-5.
Before I talk about this any further, here's my decklist for reference...
Now maybe it's just my local meta but I seem to constantly find myself in the position where on turn 3 or 4 I have 3 lands, a Goblin Guide, and a Kiln Fiend on the board and my opponent has some 3 or 4 toughness creature or a couple of 2 toughness creatures ready to block. In my hand the only burn available is a Staggershock and a Burst Lightning, and I've only got 3 lands to work with.
While I'm sure this sounds extremely situational it's been an all too common occurrence for me. Finding myself in a situation where I needed to take down a larger creature or a few small creatures to clear the path (and pump the Fiend in the process) and Staggershock was just too expensive to get the job done in a single turn. Outside of those incidents I've found Staggershock to overly costly in other situations as well. Maybe I want to drop another Goblin Guide, level up Kargan, or just drop a little burn before going all in with a Summons & Bushwacker combo. And if by some unlucky chance your Summons gets negated, canceled, or otherwise denied after sac'ing the lands than your chance of recovering and rebuilding your mana base enough to pay the 3 CMC for Staggershock is somewhere between little and none. The point of all this is that there are many situations (infact, most situations IMHO) this deck can find itself in where Staggershock is just too costly to be efficient.
So what are the alternatives for burn below 3 CMC? I could maindeck Flame Slash, but I don't like the idea of running any burn that can't go to the face when needed. Sometimes just 1 or 2 points of damage to the face can mean the difference between a win and a loss, so being able to go to the face is a must in my book. I know that sounds contradictory since I've got Flame Slash sitting in my sideboard, but it's for that very reason that I've never actually boarded it in. At this point it's just kind of a space filler. Factoring in the criteria of needing to be able to go to the dome I think that leaves Forked Bolt as the only other feasible option.
At this point I've been doing some casual testing of the deck with the 3x Staggershock swapped out for 3x Forked Bolt (giving me a full set of 4x Forked Bolt main decked) and I'm liking it quite a bit. In my experience so far it's allowed for faster and more efficient clearing of blockers on a low curve and performing some crazy shenanigans with Kiln Fiend (pumping Fiend to 10/2 in a single turn while clearing away multiple blockers and throwing burn to the dome in the process is not uncommon). It's also been quite nice to be able to take that sometimes unnecessary extra 1 point of damage that would have been used on a creature and re-direct it to the face instead. The synergy with the 6 CITPT lands and pumping Kargan seem much better as well, giving quite a bit more options for plays on turns 3-5 that are especially helpful in the 60% of the time or so that your Summons & Bushwhacker combo don't come together.
So, those are my long winded thoughts on the matter. If you have the patience to read all that I congratulate you More testing at tournaments and FMN will be required before I decide whether this idea is a good one though, and I would be quite interested in hearing what you guys n' gals think about the whole Staggershock VS Forked Bolt issue in a deck running Kiln Fiend.
Still a very cool card though! I know I'll find some way to work him into a deck at some point
Now what I'm really hoping to see is a couple red 2/1 for 1 mana creatures (crossing fingers that Jackal Pup may return someday), some cheaper 2R or so land destruction spells, and an inexpensive creature of some kind incorporating the Scry mechanic. If all those ever come together I think Red could return to being the dominant force in competitive again
And oh yeah, some kind of answer for Baneslayer would be nice as well.
I love the flavor of both of them and a turn 3 Kargan in a mono red deck is a threat that must be answered or he quickly becomes a game winner. It's just a shame I haven't found any seriously competitive way to play Transcendent Master yet.
I think the point of this deck for me is that I've been really wanting to try out some kind of creatureless deck strategy that didn't involve spending huge $$$ on Planeswalkers, and having never played a solid burn deck this seems like it could be fun. While I definitely see the practical application of using burn-on-a-stick creatures like Ball Lightning and Hells Thunder, it does somewhat defeat the idea I was going for with this deck so I'll likely give it a try without them.
popsofctown - I like Chandra in this theoretical deck because she allows for a number of different options. I never expect her to last past 1 or 2 turns before being removed, but in those 2 turns she can do some interesting things. For one, you can discard a number of low cost burn spells that would normally do less than 4 damage and make them do 4 instead. Or if your hand has run dry (and hopefully in this situation you're playing a control deck with a hand full of carefully selected cards) you can force your opponent to discard and refill your hand with 3 fresh cards to work with. So in that sense... yeah, ghetto Wheel of Fortune :lol: If she stays around long enough to go ultimate than great, but I can't imagine her lasting more than a turn or two with no creatures to defend her. And in that case perhaps her 6CMC cost is far too expensive for what she offers, but that's something I have yet to determine. She just seemed like the right fit for a burn deck you know?
musiquev - Thanks for all the advice! You're definitely right about the Dragon's Claw and Seer's Sundial slowing the deck down, which is problematic in a deck that wants to burn the opponent out as quickly as possible before it gets overrun by creatures or locked down by Planeswalkers. Unfortunately it seems to me like running Howling Mine and/or Font of Mythos would just fuel the opponent's machine as well, most likely ending up with them getting more creatures on the board each turn before you can burn them out. It's for that reason that I've been reluctant to include anything that increases the opponent's draw potential.
And I'm hesitant to remove Dragon's Claw from the main deck just because in the little testing I've had a chance to do with this deck it seemed to be the only thing keeping me alive long to cast the finishing burn spell. But perhaps your right, if I main decked a larger quantity of sweepers that might help me stay in the game a good while longer. And you're certainly right on Forked Bolt, I run it in my Devastating Red deck and I love it, just not too sure where to fit it into this one. Thanks again for all the great advice!
Exarch - LOL! Wow... how did I not notice that. Unstable Footing is a Lava Axe, with added benefits! I've had 4 of that card sitting in my sideboard for a month now and somehow I just never noticed that it was infact a Lava Axe. Thanks a lot for pointing that one out to me!
Ryoka - Well... fudge o_O
All in all it may be entirely possible that a creatureless deck that isn't Supercashmoney Planeswalkers can't be at all competitive, but I do think it's worth continuing to brain storm about and I thank everyone for all the ideas and points they've contributed!
The idea I've been toying with is a creatureless burn deck that might actually stand a chance of going 2-2 at FNM against a meta filled with U/W Control, U/W/R Planeswalker Control, and Jund. I'd really appreciate it if people could throw out ideas on this concept and help determine what might work, what might not work, and with any luck maybe we can come up with something feasible to play around with and maybe even win a few matches.
As it stands, here's what I've been pondering...
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Burst Lightning
4 Searing Blaze
4 Staggershock
3 Lava Axe
3 Earthquake
4 Fireball
3 Dragon's Claw
19 Mountain
3 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Dread Statuary
4 Unstable Footing (Firewalker hate)
3 Chain Reaction (Weenies & Spawn Tokens)
4 Magma Rift (Baneslayer hate)
4 Roiling Terrain (Jund & Mythic)
Now this is just a preliminary concept and I've yet to test it, so it's really just at the idea stage at this point. A few notes about some of the more odd card choices...
Seer's Sundial - Capable of giving you card advantage without giving your opponent additional draws as well (unlike Howling Mine).
Dragon's Claw - Without much in the way of creature sweepers (the 3 Earthquake aside) it's likely you're going to take a good bit of damage before being able to drop the finishing burn spell on your opponent. Dragon's Claw is there to hopefully help you stay in the game long enough to deal the finishing blow.
Fireball - While Banefire is likely a better choice in a meta filled with U/W Control, I'm a cheapskate and Banefire is going to rotate out in a few months whereas Fireball is coming back in M11 so it's just a personal long term decision to run Fireball over Banefire.
The only other thing you may think is odd about this list is the absence of Quest for Pure Flame or Pyromancer Ascension. While I like these enchantments a lot, it seems like the meta these days (at least mine) has O-Rings running rampant and just about everyone playing Blue has Unsummon maindecked or sideboarded to deal with levelers and any enchantment with counters on it. So in light of that I'm thinking maybe it would be best to avoid Quest for Pure Flame or Pyromancer Ascension, at least until Alara rotates out.
I've also been thinking that Surreal Memoir could definitely have a place in this deck as an alternative to or addition to Seer's Sundial for generating card advantage, but I'm not too sure where it would fit in and what to take out to put it in.
My hope is that with all the very nice burn spells in the current Standard environment that perhaps a creatureless burn deck might be viable. Any ideas or suggestions on the matter would be much appreciated!
On the other hand... words that will not be uttered here were shouted when I saw the bane of my existence coming back. As a mono red player and someone who feels $50 for a card is just insane I think Baneslayer was the #1 card that I was nearly praying wouldn't return in M11. So not too happy about that one. But if I'm totally honest with myself I have to admit something... Baneslayer is stupidly awesome and if I had a set I would break my tradition of red and play white
So instead of choosing one over the other I just run both. 4 of each was a little too much and created occasional bad opening hands with too many CIPT lands, but 3 of each seems just right. In the few weeks I've been playing with 3 of each I've never had a problem with opening hands having too many CIPT lands or drawing too many of them either.
In short, I think the best solution is a few of each
Glad to hear I'm not the only one who has had trouble with Staggershock's cost. I can definitely see the advantage of maindecking Flame Slash if your meta has lots of WoO floating around, even if it can't go to the face. I suppose fortunately for me my meta seems to have very little WoO, at this point I've only encountered it once in the past month and that was against Super Friends. In that match I just dropped Spires and then hit with Guide, Fiend, and a bunch of burn to the dome for the win.
There is one downside of dropping Staggershock that I hadn't previously considered though. My particular Dev Red build basically has 4 ways to win...
1. Summons & Bushwhacker combo
2. Kiln Fiend & cheap burn combo
3. Leveled up Kargan
4. Burn, burn, burn to the dome
By dropping Staggershock altogether it greatly hinders option 4. Staggershock is great for that option because you can hit with 4 damage with a single 3 CMC card. I can recall 4 different occasions in which the Summons & Bushwhacker combo didn't come together and all my big damage dealing creatures (Kargan & Fiend) got pathed, purged, O-ring'd, or doom blade'd when the opponent was down to 10 or so life and the only way I could win at that point was by unloading burn to the dome. And I was able to win 3 out of 4 of those games, even after Gideon and/or Jace were online in one case, but I think it was only because I either had a Staggershock in hand along with some other burn or was able to top deck a Staggershock.
The point being that when your important creatures all get hit with removal and your down to just burn, Staggershock can be a game winner despite it's 3 CMC cost that tends not to synergize well with the creature package I'm running.
It's times like this that I really wish we we still had Incinerate or some other 3 damage for 2 CMC card available. Just to have some kind of middle ground between 2 damage for 1 CMC and 4 damage for 3 CMC.
Before I talk about this any further, here's my decklist for reference...
18 Mountain
3 Teetering Peaks
3 Smoldering Spires
Creatures (16)
4 Goblin Guide
4 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Kiln Fiend
4 Kargan Dragonlord
4 Devastating Summons
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Burst Lightning
4 Searing Blaze
3 Staggershock
1 Forked Bolt
3 Flame Slash
2 Forked Bolt
3 Earthquake
4 Unstable Footing
3 Mark of Mutiny
Now maybe it's just my local meta but I seem to constantly find myself in the position where on turn 3 or 4 I have 3 lands, a Goblin Guide, and a Kiln Fiend on the board and my opponent has some 3 or 4 toughness creature or a couple of 2 toughness creatures ready to block. In my hand the only burn available is a Staggershock and a Burst Lightning, and I've only got 3 lands to work with.
While I'm sure this sounds extremely situational it's been an all too common occurrence for me. Finding myself in a situation where I needed to take down a larger creature or a few small creatures to clear the path (and pump the Fiend in the process) and Staggershock was just too expensive to get the job done in a single turn. Outside of those incidents I've found Staggershock to overly costly in other situations as well. Maybe I want to drop another Goblin Guide, level up Kargan, or just drop a little burn before going all in with a Summons & Bushwacker combo. And if by some unlucky chance your Summons gets negated, canceled, or otherwise denied after sac'ing the lands than your chance of recovering and rebuilding your mana base enough to pay the 3 CMC for Staggershock is somewhere between little and none. The point of all this is that there are many situations (infact, most situations IMHO) this deck can find itself in where Staggershock is just too costly to be efficient.
So what are the alternatives for burn below 3 CMC? I could maindeck Flame Slash, but I don't like the idea of running any burn that can't go to the face when needed. Sometimes just 1 or 2 points of damage to the face can mean the difference between a win and a loss, so being able to go to the face is a must in my book. I know that sounds contradictory since I've got Flame Slash sitting in my sideboard, but it's for that very reason that I've never actually boarded it in. At this point it's just kind of a space filler. Factoring in the criteria of needing to be able to go to the dome I think that leaves Forked Bolt as the only other feasible option.
At this point I've been doing some casual testing of the deck with the 3x Staggershock swapped out for 3x Forked Bolt (giving me a full set of 4x Forked Bolt main decked) and I'm liking it quite a bit. In my experience so far it's allowed for faster and more efficient clearing of blockers on a low curve and performing some crazy shenanigans with Kiln Fiend (pumping Fiend to 10/2 in a single turn while clearing away multiple blockers and throwing burn to the dome in the process is not uncommon). It's also been quite nice to be able to take that sometimes unnecessary extra 1 point of damage that would have been used on a creature and re-direct it to the face instead. The synergy with the 6 CITPT lands and pumping Kargan seem much better as well, giving quite a bit more options for plays on turns 3-5 that are especially helpful in the 60% of the time or so that your Summons & Bushwhacker combo don't come together.
So, those are my long winded thoughts on the matter. If you have the patience to read all that I congratulate you More testing at tournaments and FMN will be required before I decide whether this idea is a good one though, and I would be quite interested in hearing what you guys n' gals think about the whole Staggershock VS Forked Bolt issue in a deck running Kiln Fiend.
20 Mountain
4 Teetering Peaks
Creatures (15)
4 Goblin Guide
4 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Kiln Fiend
3 Kargan Dragonlord
4 Devastating Summons
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Burst Lightning
4 Searing Blaze
3 Staggershock
2 Burst of Speed
4 Smoldering Spires
4 Flame Slash
4 Forked Bolt
3 Mark of Mutiny