The 4 x DRS has been testing really well. Against control and midrange it gives recursive burn, and against aggro it generates more lifegain than ooze, giving the deck more space. DRS gives the deck more reach and flexibility, while keeping the curve lower and creating an early play, making it a 4 of for me.
How has Polukranos been working for you? I'd imagine he'll be quite useful, but I haven't tested with him yet.
What can all of the above cards do to some extent? Provide card advantage.
Nemesis of Mortals is just a big beater with no upside. You want to play him in an aggro deck to take advantage of lots of creatures in the graveyard for low cost, but then the risk that he'll be too high above the curve forces him out for other options. You want to play him in a midrange deck so he can come out mid-game even with only a few creatures in your graveyard, but then there are other better options that have additional abilities and aren't conditional.
Read the Bones may yet prove a better option, but I think the general consensus at the moment is that Underworld Connections provides better CA over the long term.
So, the only thing sticking out to me that I don't immediately like, is 3 Abrupt Decay. What do I need to be killing at three that isn't black or mono colored, that would also be backed by a counterspell. Have you considered that I would want to draw the counterspell out of the enemy hand in that situation? I feel like Ordeal of Erebos would work out better for us, granted, I haven't tested either. Welcome to the Golgari thread.
I just think Abrupt Decay has very good versatility.
What are your thoughts on Polukranos? My impression is that I like him because he's a very efficient beater with removal attached...isn't that part of the basis of the original Rock? Granted, it takes 7 mana to kill an X/3 and he doesn't have evasion, but at 5 mana he can kill two X/1 creatures that would chump him, and we also have Gaze of Granite to deal with token chumpers. I wouldn't go higher than 2 because of Legendary, but he seems very solid to me. The removal makes him better than Deadbridge Goliath to my mind.
There's also Pharika's Mender, which strikes me as a little weak at 4/3 for 5, plus there's the fact that we generally want to be eating our dead creatures with Ooze. Then again, the point of comparison is Eternal Witness, which is an absurdly good card.
I can also look at it this way:
Eternal Witness
G1 for 2/1
Return a card from graveyard for G
Pharika's Mender
B3 for 4/3
Return a creature/enchantment from graveyard for G
Effects should get incrementally stronger at higher mana cost (deathtouch would have made Pharika's Mender a must-include), but last I checked, we liked card advantage! It's something I'll continue to turn around in my head for a bit.
Ordeal of Erebos vs. Ordeal of Nylea is another thought. I think these are both playable in our deck. People are saying Ordeal of Erebos is terrible, but I'm not sure why. You generally wouldn't play these cards 3 turns ahead and give your opponent that much breathing room. You wait until they tap out, then put them on something that already has +1/+1 counters:
And then blow it up that turn for card advantage and a +1/+1 counter at 2 mana. In fact, if Primeval Bounty is out, it's almost like playing a 4/4 haste creature with an ETB effect. Almost.
For people who have been testing, is 2 Primeval Bounty enough or do you want 3 in the main? I really think this card should be a staple of the deck.
Lands and sideboard will be tweaked out later. Feel a bit worried about the lack of card draw and life gain, but I can see some really subtle plays to be made by killing something with Reaper of the Wilds out, scrying, then activating Underworld Connections. Ordeal of Nylea is an enchantment but plays nicely with Ooze and also with Reaper of the Wild's hexproof ability, as well as having good synergy with Polukranos, Gaze of Granite, and Primeval Bounty.
Thragtusk was really The Rock, and without a replacement I can see the deck suffering a bit. Mutilate can be made up for with Gaze of Granite to a certain extent, and then we can run more green for Scavenging Ooze as well.
Reaper of the Wilds seems like it could have a place in the deck.
Is Read the Bones a legitimate replacement for Sign in Blood?
Rampant Growth lets me do something on Turn 2 if a dork gets killed.
Harrow is great for following up with a Rampant Growth on the same turn.
Turn 3 Vorapede is horrific, plus he can get backed up by Swarmyard.
Acidic Slime can serve a variety of functions, kill a land, kill a Bitterblossom, as well as be a good blocker if I'm somehow on the back foot. Great utility card.
Mwonvuli Acid-Moss ramps me and denies them (card advantage!), and works well with Acidic Slime to occasionally mana-screw an opponent.
Leatherback Baloth: He might be better than Yavimaya Elder? If I go Turn 1 Birds, Turn 2 Baloth, Turn 3 Acid-Moss, Turn 4 Acidic Slime and deny them mana while pressuring them with a 4/5, a lot of decks can't handle that.
Vines of Vastwood: Probably the best pump spell ever printed. Its only competition is...
Primal Bellow: In a mono-green ramp deck, this is sick. I can tack it on a Birds and swing through for 10 evasive damage or something. I like the idea of it because it lets me take advantage of my forests.
Wolfbriar Elemental: I love this because of its flexibility and because it lets me take advantage of my ramp. If I need to drop a body immediately against RDW, I can, and his strength is directly proportional to the amount of mana you can use, so he's never a dead draw. The later in the game, the better he gets. The trouble is, I'm not sure what I'd take out for him since I love Pelakka Wurm so much.
Overrun: It's a staple in green decks, but I'm not sure it's what I want here? It would obviously work great with Wolfbriar Elemental.
Unyaro Bees: I like this because it's evasive, it works with ramp, and it combos with Swarmyard.
Predator Ooze: He seems pretty sweet, but bounce really ruins him.
Prey Upon: As far as I'm concerned, this is 1CMC green removal, especially with something like Leatherback Baloth.
Rancor: The best enchantment in the history of the game. It gives Dungrove Elder trample, but the hipster in me would feel bad about abusing people with this in casual.
I don't like Primeval Titan or Swords, and since this is casual, I don't want to play with them.
Right now the only thing that REALLY takes full advantage of my ramp is Dungrove Elder...it would be nice to have something else like Primal Bellow, Unyaro Bees, or Wolfbriar Elemental that just gets better the more Forests you have in play.
Yavimaya Elder is great, especially for deck thinning, land supply, and card advantage, but would Leatherback Baloth be better? I'm wondering.
How has Polukranos been working for you? I'd imagine he'll be quite useful, but I haven't tested with him yet.
I think the focus should be more on efficient removal, efficient creatures, and card advantage. Hence, things like:
are what provide us incremental advantage until we can take over. There's no doubt that losing Thragtusk and Mutilate is a big blow.
What can all of the above cards do to some extent? Provide card advantage.
Nemesis of Mortals is just a big beater with no upside. You want to play him in an aggro deck to take advantage of lots of creatures in the graveyard for low cost, but then the risk that he'll be too high above the curve forces him out for other options. You want to play him in a midrange deck so he can come out mid-game even with only a few creatures in your graveyard, but then there are other better options that have additional abilities and aren't conditional.
I could, however, see him maaaaaaybe work in something like Lotleth Troll/Grisly Salvage.dec.
I think you're right, but I plan to play G/B Rock
I do really like Read the Bones. Lets you dig 4 deep for an answer if necessary.
Plus, could be another reason to include Pharika's Mender. *sly smile*
EDIT: Actually, the more I sit here and think about it, the more I freaking like that card. Maybe we could run a creature suite like:
But that would require taking 2 cards out of spells...hmm.
I just think Abrupt Decay has very good versatility.
What are your thoughts on Polukranos? My impression is that I like him because he's a very efficient beater with removal attached...isn't that part of the basis of the original Rock? Granted, it takes 7 mana to kill an X/3 and he doesn't have evasion, but at 5 mana he can kill two X/1 creatures that would chump him, and we also have Gaze of Granite to deal with token chumpers. I wouldn't go higher than 2 because of Legendary, but he seems very solid to me. The removal makes him better than Deadbridge Goliath to my mind.
There's also Pharika's Mender, which strikes me as a little weak at 4/3 for 5, plus there's the fact that we generally want to be eating our dead creatures with Ooze. Then again, the point of comparison is Eternal Witness, which is an absurdly good card.
I can also look at it this way:
Eternal Witness
G1 for 2/1
Return a card from graveyard for G
Pharika's Mender
B3 for 4/3
Return a creature/enchantment from graveyard for G
Effects should get incrementally stronger at higher mana cost (deathtouch would have made Pharika's Mender a must-include), but last I checked, we liked card advantage! It's something I'll continue to turn around in my head for a bit.
Ordeal of Erebos vs. Ordeal of Nylea is another thought. I think these are both playable in our deck. People are saying Ordeal of Erebos is terrible, but I'm not sure why. You generally wouldn't play these cards 3 turns ahead and give your opponent that much breathing room. You wait until they tap out, then put them on something that already has +1/+1 counters:
Anything with Primeval Bounty out
And then blow it up that turn for card advantage and a +1/+1 counter at 2 mana. In fact, if Primeval Bounty is out, it's almost like playing a 4/4 haste creature with an ETB effect. Almost.
For people who have been testing, is 2 Primeval Bounty enough or do you want 3 in the main? I really think this card should be a staple of the deck.
11 Swamp
9 Forest
4 Overgrown Tomb
Creatures (16)
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Lifebane Zombie
4 Desecration Demon
3 Reaper of the Wilds
2 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Doom Blade
3 Ordeal of Nylea
3 Putrefy
3 Underworld Connections
2 Primeval Bounty
3 Gaze of Granite
1 Vraska the Unseen
Lands and sideboard will be tweaked out later. Feel a bit worried about the lack of card draw and life gain, but I can see some really subtle plays to be made by killing something with Reaper of the Wilds out, scrying, then activating Underworld Connections. Ordeal of Nylea is an enchantment but plays nicely with Ooze and also with Reaper of the Wild's hexproof ability, as well as having good synergy with Polukranos, Gaze of Granite, and Primeval Bounty.
Colour me unimpressed with most of this set. I do like Reaper of the Wilds, but that's about it.
Limited will be fun as HELL though!
(We also lose Homicidal Seclusion for Haunted Plate Mail variants.)
Thragtusk was really The Rock, and without a replacement I can see the deck suffering a bit. Mutilate can be made up for with Gaze of Granite to a certain extent, and then we can run more green for Scavenging Ooze as well.
Reaper of the Wilds seems like it could have a place in the deck.
Is Read the Bones a legitimate replacement for Sign in Blood?
20 Forest
3 Swarmyard
Creatures (25)
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Llanowar Elves
4 Dungrove Elder
4 Yavimaya Elder
4 Vorapede
3 Acidic Slime
3 Pelakka Wurm
4 Rampant Growth
4 Harrow
4 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
Card choices:
Birds and Elves are almost required.
Rampant Growth lets me do something on Turn 2 if a dork gets killed.
Harrow is great for following up with a Rampant Growth on the same turn.
Turn 3 Vorapede is horrific, plus he can get backed up by Swarmyard.
Acidic Slime can serve a variety of functions, kill a land, kill a Bitterblossom, as well as be a good blocker if I'm somehow on the back foot. Great utility card.
Mwonvuli Acid-Moss ramps me and denies them (card advantage!), and works well with Acidic Slime to occasionally mana-screw an opponent.
Yavimaya Elder and Pelakka Wurm are card advantage in Green. Yavimaya Elder also gets you more lands for Dungrove Elder.
Cards I'd like to consider:
Leatherback Baloth: He might be better than Yavimaya Elder? If I go Turn 1 Birds, Turn 2 Baloth, Turn 3 Acid-Moss, Turn 4 Acidic Slime and deny them mana while pressuring them with a 4/5, a lot of decks can't handle that.
Vines of Vastwood: Probably the best pump spell ever printed. Its only competition is...
Primal Bellow: In a mono-green ramp deck, this is sick. I can tack it on a Birds and swing through for 10 evasive damage or something. I like the idea of it because it lets me take advantage of my forests.
Wolfbriar Elemental: I love this because of its flexibility and because it lets me take advantage of my ramp. If I need to drop a body immediately against RDW, I can, and his strength is directly proportional to the amount of mana you can use, so he's never a dead draw. The later in the game, the better he gets. The trouble is, I'm not sure what I'd take out for him since I love Pelakka Wurm so much.
Overrun: It's a staple in green decks, but I'm not sure it's what I want here? It would obviously work great with Wolfbriar Elemental.
Unyaro Bees: I like this because it's evasive, it works with ramp, and it combos with Swarmyard.
Predator Ooze: He seems pretty sweet, but bounce really ruins him.
Cloudthresher: Probably a sideboard card?
Obstinate Baloth: Definitely a sideboard card against RDW or discard.
Thrun, the Last Troll: I'd love to be able to maindeck 1 or 2 of him for flavor.
Prey Upon: As far as I'm concerned, this is 1CMC green removal, especially with something like Leatherback Baloth.
Rancor: The best enchantment in the history of the game. It gives Dungrove Elder trample, but the hipster in me would feel bad about abusing people with this in casual.
I don't like Primeval Titan or Swords, and since this is casual, I don't want to play with them.
Right now the only thing that REALLY takes full advantage of my ramp is Dungrove Elder...it would be nice to have something else like Primal Bellow, Unyaro Bees, or Wolfbriar Elemental that just gets better the more Forests you have in play.
Yavimaya Elder is great, especially for deck thinning, land supply, and card advantage, but would Leatherback Baloth be better? I'm wondering.
The sideboard is still a work in progress, but I'm pretty sure it'll contain Obstinate Baloth and Cloudthresher.
Please let me know your thoughts!