Wrath - Heartless Hidetsugu Red is a violent color. Heartless punches everyone in the face, and wrath is just as self-destructive as it is destructive. Plus I like the idea of building this deck to the idea/theme of wrath, not the metaknowledge of "wrathing the board".
Pride - Rafiq of the Many One man does all the work and gets all the glory. This guy is the poster child for a Pride deck.
Honestly it could just be culture shock. I have never, nor have I ever, before Cube, proxied and played with a Black Lotus. However I started with Sol Rings and Mind Twists so I have had time to acclimate to them.
Black Lotus has been a whole new experience that so far has not engendered a lot of fun. It will continue to see testing, to make sure it wasn't just stupid lucky draws (like getting bribery, land, mox, and a black lotus in an opening hand while the opponent has a baneslayer in library). Mana Crypt is hilarious fun because, while it does accelerate ridiculously fast, it is colorless and the opponent can usually stabilize. I have had to bounce or destroy my own crypt multiple times before to stay alive.
The Mox and Sol Ring are another story. As I said, I have always had Sol Rings around and Mox haven't created completely broken plays yet. (Well except when one player manages to get 4 of them)
I do understand this is Cube. This isn't designed for fair and balanced play. It is a collection of the biggest and the best, and sometimes you just get kicked in the teeth.
As much fun as it may be to watch a gorilla wash a cat, it sucks to be the cat...
I'll throw in another dissenting voice (as I built Wort and found her to be too centralized and linear), and mention Ulasht. He can be an utter house. He can be a fun (the way I describe it) and fun (the way you describe it) general so he can fit any EDH paradigm.
Despite my earlier comment, I am fully in support of people playing the game how they, and their group, have fun. That just doesn't sound like a lot of fun to me. My group doesn't have a single rage-quitter and casual-whinger, but breaking/ruining games doesn't thrill any of us. If anyone scoops to a Hive Mind+Eye of the Storm or Knowledge Pool+Sculpting Steel+Phyrexian Metamorph...it isn't due to rage, it is just that broken game states don't offer anything interesting, interactive, or fun. But that is just my group, and I don't want to de-rail your topic.
I say make Ulasht, and break your game with it, and enjoy every second of it.
I've never agreed with someone on the internet more than I do right now. That group sounds absolutely miserable.
I was going to suggest Stonebrow as he is incredibly fun, surprisingly effective, and doesn't draw a lot of hate. But I can tell that your group has a much different idea of what fun is, than I do.
Now that question could be interpreted as somewhat hostile, but I assure you all it isn't. Recently (read 5-6 months ago) I powered my Cube. Largely, I haven't regretted it. Mana Crypt, The Moxen, and Time Walk are all ludicrously powerful, and fun. However, that hasn't been the experience with our flowery friend. Black Lotus has wrecked almost every game it has seen play. There was one time where it got drawn late in the game, and did nothing but fuel an off color for a stolen man-land. The rest of the games it has been drafted/opened in sealed, it has overwhelmed the game. A turn 2 Jace, Memory Adept is just dumb. Does it have answers? Sure. But very few outside of hasty red drops or burn.
I haven't resolved to take Black Lotus out just yet, since it has only been in the Cube for a relatively short time. But, it is pushing itself to the front of the execution line very quickly.
So back to my original question... Has anyone actually had fun with this in their Cube? I can honestly say that the last time we drafted my cube that the Black Lotus ruined the experience. We drafted twice. The first time was full of interesting, interactive and competitive draft decks. The second time, well it was fun for everyone until they played against my deck supported by Black Lotus. As I played my first match I could overhear the other players in different match ups laughing, and having fun. My opponent was miserable, and I was miserable. Next round, my opponent was miserable and I was miserable, and there was less boisterous laughter, as my previous opponent had been demoralized. This continued until we all agreed that this draft was over because no one was happy. The games were ruined by the Lotus, and it's overwhelming capacity to suck any interactivity from the game it shows up in.
Thanks for the input everyone. My focus is less about keeping Karona on the board, and more about keeping the Vow cycle on the board and attached to her.
Shade's Form is awesome and in the deck already, but sadly doesn't necessarily accomplish what I'm trying.
Vanishing is incredibly good and is in the pile of "To look at and try" cards, but the fun of karona is passing her around...and this prevents that. I believe it will end up in the deck as a "Finisher".
Replenish, Retether, and Open the Vaults are key. So is skull of orm, and sun titan.
I'm looking forward to seeing what everyone keeps bringing to the topic, so far almost everything has been great.
I'm in the process of building Karona right now (obviously with the Enchanter theme), and have hit a tough spot. What happens when a player simply sacs her? All my enchants go to the dumpster and all the Karona shenanigans come to a halt (unless Endless Whispers is on the table).
Koko - Nothing more needs to be said about this. There aren't any good reasons to keep him banned.
Balance - Because it is ridiculous fun. Sure it is cheap,
Sway of the Stars - For the same mana cost, I would rather see this resolve than Time Stretch ANYDAY.
Honorable Mentions:
Mirror - This is mainly because I absolutely love this card. I realize there are a lot of dick moves when using Mirror, and in fact, I can't think of a time that Mirror got imprinted that we didn't groan at the prospect of facing it. But, no one I know is loser enough to imprint an extra turn sorcery, so my opinions on it are probably skewed.
Painter's - Sure he has some degenerate combos, but as has been said before he has fun things he can do, he is no more broken or degenerate than helm/leyline, kiki/pester/splinter/deceiver, Teferi/Pool, etc. Painter's has an odd-ball unique effect that can be used to various effects. Iona, is just a bigger, more expensive version of Erayo.
As long as Hermit Druid is not banned, there is no reason for Servant to be banned. I realize they do different things, but Hermit is just dumb, degenerate, and boring and is never used for anything decent.
However, I think having a ban list, at all, for such a casual format, is kind of silly. It is up to the group playing to keep other players from being degenerate.
EDH is predicated on a social contract. Maybe I am lucky and the circles I frequent have more regard for one another than average, but the social contract of having fun already precludes being a jerk while playing. We have already pretty much varianted EDH to include Balance, Upheaval, Koko, Servant, and Mirror.
We have also changed the Hybrid cost rules to allow Mono-colored decks to play them. (i.e. both Mono-black and Mono-white can play unmake) As long as you can cast the spell (i.e. Unmake) , or use an ability (i.e. Bosh), without having to generate mana of a color, or producing a mana of a color (i.e. Noble Exarch), that your General doesn't support, you can cast it.
You still value life gain and life loss - magic isn't won through that. If you got 8 activations of kokusho off, and no one gained life or tried to stop you.. gg play another? Or are we seriously saying that this card is POWERFUL enough to warrant a ban? Mind over Matter says hi.
I'm not saying he's a weak card.. but why not play an infinite combo with all that stuff people are letting you do? Win the game 6 turns earlier!
This is the single most important thing that has been said in the Kokusho debate. Koko is not a problem, and needs to be unbanned. The RC can't continue to keep him banned, leave other problem cards unbanned, and retain integrity.
I can't be a lot of help yet, but the most important fact is that your relevant dimensions are the internal ones. I'd give the sleeved width of a card an extra
1 or 2mm,for width.
Yeah. The 9xx card single channel boxes are ,internally, 11 3/4 x 2 3/4 x 3 3/4. I assume I can probably extrapolate that...but wanted something a little more specific. Especially because I plan on double sleeving my cards in KMC Perfect Fit as well as their current KMC sleeves. So I can't really measure super accurately right now.
So, I am at work and it's a little bit slow so I got to thinking about a custom box for my Cube. There is the dilemma, I don't know the dimensions I would need since the Cube is safely stowed at home.
This is where you all come in. What would the dimensions be for a 800 card Cube, in KMC Sleeves + KMC Perfect fit, with a little bit of wiggle room so it is easy to grab the cards (without land as land, dice, tokens, etc will be in a second channel)?
@Pringlesman - The reason I kept that flavor text on Braids, is that it highlights the transparency that I created for the skulls (which by the way wasn't just making the textbox translucent. I actually created that green magical effect. The text on the other side, gives the viewer something to latch onto and see that the green nimbus is transparent, whereas just the textbox doesn't do that. I do understand it is mostly covered up, and but I used the flavor text as an artistic component, rather than functional.
@HG - Yeah, Azure Mage was the first of the three, and by the time I finished the others I realized I could do way better, but then life happened and I wasn't able to take the time. The reason for the super art, spill, and shadow, is because honestly, that's what I know how to do. The procession and braids challenged that a little bit, but this is exactly why everyone expected Zeerbe or Wermine to win. They know more and can do more. Which is fine, in any competition there are some who are better and who will win, but the fact remains that Z or W will always win these kind of competitions.
What does Thraben Hereteic have that Relic doesn't? Costs more, takes longer to activate, can't do an "ultimate". I'm not seeing this as a good idea.
Greed - Memnarch He wants all the things. He takes all the things.
Gluttony - Omnath, Locus of Mana Omnom-nom-nom
Sloth - Grand Arbiter Augustin IV Stax. Slow the game to a crawl.
Wrath - Heartless Hidetsugu Red is a violent color. Heartless punches everyone in the face, and wrath is just as self-destructive as it is destructive. Plus I like the idea of building this deck to the idea/theme of wrath, not the metaknowledge of "wrathing the board".
Pride - Rafiq of the Many One man does all the work and gets all the glory. This guy is the poster child for a Pride deck.
Lust - Kiku, Night's Flower Sexy looking geisha chick.
Envy - Sakashima, the Impostor Envy, many times, is interpreted as wanting to be what others are.
Black Lotus has been a whole new experience that so far has not engendered a lot of fun. It will continue to see testing, to make sure it wasn't just stupid lucky draws (like getting bribery, land, mox, and a black lotus in an opening hand while the opponent has a baneslayer in library). Mana Crypt is hilarious fun because, while it does accelerate ridiculously fast, it is colorless and the opponent can usually stabilize. I have had to bounce or destroy my own crypt multiple times before to stay alive.
The Mox and Sol Ring are another story. As I said, I have always had Sol Rings around and Mox haven't created completely broken plays yet. (Well except when one player manages to get 4 of them)
I do understand this is Cube. This isn't designed for fair and balanced play. It is a collection of the biggest and the best, and sometimes you just get kicked in the teeth.
As much fun as it may be to watch a gorilla wash a cat, it sucks to be the cat...
Despite my earlier comment, I am fully in support of people playing the game how they, and their group, have fun. That just doesn't sound like a lot of fun to me. My group doesn't have a single rage-quitter and casual-whinger, but breaking/ruining games doesn't thrill any of us. If anyone scoops to a Hive Mind+Eye of the Storm or Knowledge Pool+Sculpting Steel+Phyrexian Metamorph...it isn't due to rage, it is just that broken game states don't offer anything interesting, interactive, or fun. But that is just my group, and I don't want to de-rail your topic.
I say make Ulasht, and break your game with it, and enjoy every second of it.
I've never agreed with someone on the internet more than I do right now. That group sounds absolutely miserable.
I was going to suggest Stonebrow as he is incredibly fun, surprisingly effective, and doesn't draw a lot of hate. But I can tell that your group has a much different idea of what fun is, than I do.
Now that question could be interpreted as somewhat hostile, but I assure you all it isn't. Recently (read 5-6 months ago) I powered my Cube. Largely, I haven't regretted it. Mana Crypt, The Moxen, and Time Walk are all ludicrously powerful, and fun. However, that hasn't been the experience with our flowery friend. Black Lotus has wrecked almost every game it has seen play. There was one time where it got drawn late in the game, and did nothing but fuel an off color for a stolen man-land. The rest of the games it has been drafted/opened in sealed, it has overwhelmed the game. A turn 2 Jace, Memory Adept is just dumb. Does it have answers? Sure. But very few outside of hasty red drops or burn.
I haven't resolved to take Black Lotus out just yet, since it has only been in the Cube for a relatively short time. But, it is pushing itself to the front of the execution line very quickly.
So back to my original question... Has anyone actually had fun with this in their Cube? I can honestly say that the last time we drafted my cube that the Black Lotus ruined the experience. We drafted twice. The first time was full of interesting, interactive and competitive draft decks. The second time, well it was fun for everyone until they played against my deck supported by Black Lotus. As I played my first match I could overhear the other players in different match ups laughing, and having fun. My opponent was miserable, and I was miserable. Next round, my opponent was miserable and I was miserable, and there was less boisterous laughter, as my previous opponent had been demoralized. This continued until we all agreed that this draft was over because no one was happy. The games were ruined by the Lotus, and it's overwhelming capacity to suck any interactivity from the game it shows up in.
Am I alone in this experience?
Shade's Form is awesome and in the deck already, but sadly doesn't necessarily accomplish what I'm trying.
Vanishing is incredibly good and is in the pile of "To look at and try" cards, but the fun of karona is passing her around...and this prevents that. I believe it will end up in the deck as a "Finisher".
Replenish, Retether, and Open the Vaults are key. So is skull of orm, and sun titan.
I'm looking forward to seeing what everyone keeps bringing to the topic, so far almost everything has been great.
Koko - Nothing more needs to be said about this. There aren't any good reasons to keep him banned.
Balance - Because it is ridiculous fun. Sure it is cheap,
Sway of the Stars - For the same mana cost, I would rather see this resolve than Time Stretch ANYDAY.
Honorable Mentions:
Mirror - This is mainly because I absolutely love this card. I realize there are a lot of dick moves when using Mirror, and in fact, I can't think of a time that Mirror got imprinted that we didn't groan at the prospect of facing it. But, no one I know is loser enough to imprint an extra turn sorcery, so my opinions on it are probably skewed.
Painter's - Sure he has some degenerate combos, but as has been said before he has fun things he can do, he is no more broken or degenerate than helm/leyline, kiki/pester/splinter/deceiver, Teferi/Pool, etc. Painter's has an odd-ball unique effect that can be used to various effects. Iona, is just a bigger, more expensive version of Erayo.
As long as Hermit Druid is not banned, there is no reason for Servant to be banned. I realize they do different things, but Hermit is just dumb, degenerate, and boring and is never used for anything decent.
However, I think having a ban list, at all, for such a casual format, is kind of silly. It is up to the group playing to keep other players from being degenerate.
EDH is predicated on a social contract. Maybe I am lucky and the circles I frequent have more regard for one another than average, but the social contract of having fun already precludes being a jerk while playing. We have already pretty much varianted EDH to include Balance, Upheaval, Koko, Servant, and Mirror.
We have also changed the Hybrid cost rules to allow Mono-colored decks to play them. (i.e. both Mono-black and Mono-white can play unmake) As long as you can cast the spell (i.e. Unmake) , or use an ability (i.e. Bosh), without having to generate mana of a color, or producing a mana of a color (i.e. Noble Exarch), that your General doesn't support, you can cast it.
This is the single most important thing that has been said in the Kokusho debate. Koko is not a problem, and needs to be unbanned. The RC can't continue to keep him banned, leave other problem cards unbanned, and retain integrity.
Yeah. The 9xx card single channel boxes are ,internally, 11 3/4 x 2 3/4 x 3 3/4. I assume I can probably extrapolate that...but wanted something a little more specific. Especially because I plan on double sleeving my cards in KMC Perfect Fit as well as their current KMC sleeves. So I can't really measure super accurately right now.
This is where you all come in. What would the dimensions be for a 800 card Cube, in KMC Sleeves + KMC Perfect fit, with a little bit of wiggle room so it is easy to grab the cards (without land as land, dice, tokens, etc will be in a second channel)?
RUG goodstuff?
@HG - Yeah, Azure Mage was the first of the three, and by the time I finished the others I realized I could do way better, but then life happened and I wasn't able to take the time. The reason for the super art, spill, and shadow, is because honestly, that's what I know how to do. The procession and braids challenged that a little bit, but this is exactly why everyone expected Zeerbe or Wermine to win. They know more and can do more. Which is fine, in any competition there are some who are better and who will win, but the fact remains that Z or W will always win these kind of competitions.