MTG Salvation

Quote from VideSupra

This.

Also, T1 Pithing Needle, naming Relic = gg. Happened to me.

Which is not to say Relic is BAD, it at least does some stuff. If it makes them board in Pithing Needle to dilute their combo, that's fine by me.

Quote from BradM

Eggs is a sweet matchup for Karn Tron....Maindeck Relics. Just draw 1, and you can't lose. But game 2 make sure you have something to stop them.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, 1000x wrong. One will Relic not always be enough to beat Eggs. All they need is two sunrise effects in hand, we crack relic in response to the first one, they respond to the relic being cracked by casting the second one. They can also refrain from going all in and sac half of their eggs, make us decide if we want to crack the relic, if we don't they get a lot of value, if we do they cantrip some more and find another sunrise.

Quote from twinner

Personnaly I think there arn't card with better reach. Relic does do allot for this deck. Since DRS has become a big thing now adays (RDW, Jund, Dredge, etc..) so many deck run it and this is a nice can trip. I think there are more deck that use the gy in some way then not. Also I don't know where you play, but where I play Storm is a big things, also eggs (they are cheaper to make). I think the pure pull of the card make it an auto in.

Yeah, where I play there's at least 2 Eggs players, which is why I wanted to try the anti-combo sideboard. But tbh, combo is our hardest matchup anyway, so that's what the sb should focus on. Valakut is still a problem though. I wanna find away to sneak a Spellskite into the main board to have another slot against Valakut in the sideboard, right now I only have Sundering Titan, I want a card like Witchbane Orb or something as well. I would normally just cut a 'Skite, but I think running less than 4 when Infect, Burn, and Boggles are just SO bad for us is wrong.

Quote from JonasDash

I get that it cycles, but cycling doesn't really excite me. I'd rather have a card that actively does something in a lot of matchups - like Firespout, or more O-Stones and Spellskites, or even Pithing Needles or Chalice of the Voids.



When you break it down along the decks played in Modern, Relic actually hurts relatively few decks.

Scapeshift, Twin, Infect, Bogle, KikiPod, Affinity, Tron, G/W Hatebears and RDW don't use graveyard effects - either at all, or in such a minor fashion that Relic is not an impacting card

Jund, Eggs, Storm, and Snapcaster based tempo decks use the GY. The major usage being Tarmogoyf and Deathrite Shaman from Jund and the combo decks. The Snapcaster based tempo decks won't really stumble to a Relic.

so really - Jund, Eggs and Storm. Of those, we already beat Jund a fair amount and don't really mind if they have a Tarmo at 4/5 instead of a 2/3 for a turn or two, we'll go bigger with Wurmcoil and Karn, or use O-Stone to clear the board.

Eggs and Storm are two very small fringe combo decks imo, neither are very good and not worth playing Relic main deck for. Beyond that there's reaaaallly minor cases like Living End decks, but again , a very minor % of the field.


I've got 2 in the deck currently, because sometimes it can be useful, and it does still cycle... but I'm not above considering replacing them with cards that have better reach

I'm just slightly worried that the deck will lose a bit of consistency cutting relics b/c they are cantrips. I'll have to see for myself and try it. I'll cut 2 for a Wurm and an All is Dust.

While I understand that those combo decks are not very popular, I don't like being a complete dog to them when I don't have to be while not hurting our already good matchups in the process.

Quote from JonasDash

The 1 All is Dust is a catch all that serves as the pseudo 3rd Stone. I'm also kinda hedging my bets against Boros Charms indestructible mode, which may be a thing post GTC. It also gives me an additional out to Stony Silence, which is nice and it can be resolved for 7 (or 5 with Eye) which is 1 less than a stone cast + activate, and thus can be useful to clear the board on turn 3/4 when you 1st Tron. Something you may really need....

Slavers have helped most against the slower mid range decks (jund. pod, mirror match ... and all control) If they run countermagic, they'll consider it a must counter - which can then let me try to resolve something more important against them like Karn. The Academy Ruins recursion shines here, making them counter it repeatedly until it lands.

Thragtusks are kind of a meta call. They're for RDW and Zoo. Sometimes you just need to buy a couple turns and Wurmcoil getting Path'd leaves you with nothing. Thrugtusk at least gives you 5 life if they Path it. Those could also potentially become Torpor Orb if the field has less aggro and more Twin and Pod - two decks which the rest of the board doesn't help a ton against


edit: I'm also not 100% sure I don't want to just cut the Relics entirely from the deck. Tarmo is about the only reason I keep them in. Storm has died off a lot, and it doesn't do much against the other decks in the field. I'd consider cutting them for either O-Stone #3 and All is Dust #2 or 2 Firespouts (aggro meta) or running something else like Primevil Titan or something to help against control (suggestions anyone?)

I explained a page or 2 back why I think there should be no less than 4 Relics in the main deck. Almost every competitive deck uses the graveyard for utility in some way, and if it's not relevant, it cycles for 2.

I kinda wanna discuss Kozilek, Butcher of Truth. The guys in the Legacy Turbo Eldrazi (aka 12-post) thread were discussing how he contributes to their deck, and I don't see why he can't contribute to our deck in the same way. Yes, I realize modern and legacy, and the two decks, are more than just a little different but I think their point on Koz might be able to transfer over.

Kozilek is an immediate 5 for 1, draw four cards, and you have a 12/12 annihilator 4 they have to deal with. Casting Koz on 10 will almost assuredly get us to Emrakul in some way shape or form two turns later. And if not Emrakul, something else dumb.

I would run Ulamog first in this format always, because destroying a permanent is extremely relevant and lets you stabilize most of the time. I am certainly intrigued at testing out Koz though. Going to try -1 Wurm +1 Koz and see how it rolls.

In response to infinite combos with TnN, not a fan in this deck. The cards needed to make the combo work are dead cards in hand. Secondly, all of our win conditions swing the game far into our favor anyway. Eldrazi and Karn are like one-card combos.

Played against Scapeshift again today and somehow managed to win. My opponent got really unlucky and had to mulligan to 5 game 1 and to 6 in game 2, he also playing black, not sure for what though since he never played a black spell.

In game one I had the nut hand with Turn 3 karn, which he remanded. I almost considered playing around Izzet charm, but I decided to just go for it because he mulled to 5, under normal circumstances I would maybe wait a turn to play around it. I still don't like waiting though since the matchup is already bad, and giving them time is just not a good idea, sometimes they might just have the remand for it, in which case you really don't care and you just play karn again next turn, hopefully with another tron land to play around izzet charm. On turn 4 Karn resolved, then on turn 5 I topdecked Ulamog with mana for him and the game was over, yeah I got really lucky, and I don't think there are many other decks that could beat that kind of a draw.

Game 2 dragged on for a while and I had a spellskite in play, which was actually kind of relevant, it kept him from bouncing my tron lands with Cryptic Command and slowing me down. I cast multiple Karns, and cast Ulamog twice, he got remanded, and then countered by cryptic. I tried to always target Green mana sources, because they need 2 green to cast Scapeshift. Even if they have a valakut in play, I still think it's better to kill the green mana.

Another thing about this matchup. Ghost Quarter will probably not end up mattering as long they have 4 Valakuts in deck/in play, or even 3 of them. I haven't done the math yet, but I think it doesn't end up mattering most of the time. Can someone clear this up?

EDIT: I think having a Sundering Titan somewhere in the 75 would improve this matchup. The problem is that with the way their deck works, most of our threats/big stuff are blanked, Wurm, O-Stone, All is Dust. Titan would give us another threat that actually does something, is tutorable with Eye, and probably wins the game if it resolves.

Has anyone thought about a Primeval Titan version of this deck? Perhaps sporting Wall of Roots and Overgrown Battlement?

Quote from frostymoose

I don't understand. O Stone costs 3+5 = 8. All is Dust is only 7. I guess you're not considering casting & activating on the same turn?

Also, if you look at rulings on totem armor, this is false. O stone will not destroy a creature through totem armor.



Note: Spellskite does not stop exarch. When exarch enters the battlefield, it's controller chooses a mode of its ability before targeting anything. You choose to "untap a permanent that you control." You cannot force your opponent's exarch ability onto your spellskite if they choose to untap something.

Fair point, didn't notice the Exarch thing. It does stop Pestermite though, so I'd still bring it in. EDIT: Only against Twin, probs not Pod.

My point on O-Stone wasn't that it's bad because it doesn't blow stuff up through totem armor, b/c it certainly does. It was that you can't play it and activate it in the same turn on turn 3 if you get Tron. Whereas with All is Dust you can cast it on Turn 3 with tron right away, one turn can make a huge difference in this format. That said, O-Stone is still nuts. It blows up Planeswalkers which are normally hard to deal with for us, and completely blows some decks out of the water, like affinity. Putting a fate counter on a Wurm or Karn and then blowing it usually puts the game away.

Quote from sneakattackkid

guys against scapeshift just slaughter games them naming scapeshift. They aren't capable of dealing the 20 otherwise without p omen, and even then it's not easy. Gives you 4+ turns to emrakul.

Also spellskite being eye of ugin tutorable is relevant in the twin matchup a lot of the time actually.

I think Slaughter Games is fine and all, but it's too slow against the other Combo decks.

@ the topic of match-ups: I personally am on the side of ignoring the horrendous match-ups and trying to build a sideboard for the match-ups slightly in/ out of our favor.

I don't think this is correct. We have good matchups like Jund, random aggro, and Birthing Pod that we just crush. Our winnable but still losable matchups can be made favorable with testing and knowing how to play it.

You can't hope to dodge your horrendous matchups all day at a tournament. This is especially true in an eternal format where there are so many cards available to make the matchups winnable after sideboard.

Quote from Slivortal

I'm wondering the same thing. The only issue I can foresee though is that the red-based decks we are boarding it in against are ALREADY boarding in their artifact hate to deal with Wurmcoils, etc. Enchantments are practically impossible for red to deal with in Modern.

Maybe if you run a Temple Garden? I'm not sure how much I like running Prophetic Prism when we aren't using it MD.

I actually think that Eying up a Skite isn't that bad of a play in our more aggressive matchups. It makes Eye immediately relevant as a pinch blocker if we play it T5 after Tron + any piece (or any other scenario where we have Eye and less than 13 mana for Wurmcoil-cast).

I really think that I want to try Skite MD. Here's what I'm thinking:

DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Creatures (6) 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn 3 Wurmcoil Engine 2 Spellskite Noncreature Spells (34) 4 Karn Liberated 3 Oblivion Stone 4 Ancient Stirrings 4 Chromatic Star 4 Chromatic Sphere 4 Sylvan Scrying 4 Expedition Map 3 Relic of Progenitus 4 Pyroclasm	Lands (20) 4 Urza's Tower 4 Urza's Mine 4 Urza's Power Plant 4 Grove of the Burnwillows 2 Forest 1 Ghost Quarter 1 Eye of Ugin	SIDEBOARD 2 Batterskull 2 Torpor Orb 1 Spellskite 1 Oblivion Stone 1 Relic of Progenitus 1 Beast Within 4 Nature's Claim 3 Slaughter Games

Also, for the Scapeshift MU, don't they need 8 lands without Omen? 7 lands should be only 18, which isn't enough for the kill. Spellskite also reduces damage by 1/3, so I feel it's pretty good as well - considering that Skite's good in practically every matchup bar eggs or kikipod, doesn't it almost certainly deserve an MD slot? Or maybe decks in my meta are just too aggressive...

Depends on meta I suppose, but Skite is def. the nut. Off the top of my head it is relevant against the following Tier decks:
RDW
Infect
Auras
Splinter Twin
Kiki Pod (Sort of, stops Conscripts and Deceiver, but not Angel.)
Jund
Affinity (not much, but saves damage from their Burn and blocks the rare non-flier)

Quote from huktonfonix

Is leyline really better than Witchbane Orb for this deck? It's obviously much easier to hardcast. Admittedly I haven't tried the orb, and I'm being lazy on the math, but between ancient stirrings and all the cantrips we run I feel more comfortable trying to draw into one before I need it than the aggressive mulligan plan.

I run neither because I haven't faced much Scapeshift locally, but it's definitely a matchup that worries me.

Witchbane can't come down until turn 3 or 4/ That's fine against Scapeshift, but bad against Storm or Eggs since they can just draw their deck and draw the one echoing truth they always board in and bounce it.

RDW is also not a good matchup. You have to play turn 3 Wurm and pray, and then board in Skite and Claim(kill your own thing to gain 4). I'm an advocate of 4 Maindeck Relic b/c even when they're bad they cycle for 2, cycling is already important in our deck in the first place. The deck needs lots of redundancy. Relic cycles and has utility which is perfect.

I also forgot to mention that Skite is great against Twin where our Pyroclasms are normally dead.

We basically took out a Wurm for Ulamog. I think that having a tutorable Vindicate is relevant on some board states, having two eldrazi in deck can also be relevant. You can also play him turn 5 accidentally sometimes, which is funny.

I think adding a land is correct too. Didn't want to take out the second forest since you really need it to combat Blood Moon, but if we find getting White mana naturally is harder than making Green under a Blood Moon we may put in a second Garden in the future. With that aside, this deck can't really keep one land hands despite all its cantrips like Storm can, so adding another land seemed right.

As far as only running two Stones. The entire deck is land search, and cantrips, with a few slots left over for "unbeatable" bombs. O-stone can sometimes straight up win the game, but it's dead sometimes, and you can't even play it and blow it on turn 3 if you get tron. When Wurm is a dead card it at least presents a clock. Karn is pretty much never a dead card, nor are the eldrazi.

I'm pretty excited to see how the combo matchups turn out with this white splash.

Edit: Been doing some testing with randoms on Cockatrice. I've found that this deck mulligans terribly, or I'm just mulliganing way too aggressively. If a hand doesn't have at least 2 different Tron pieces and no relevant disruption for the matchup, I mulligan. I've mulliganed to 5 once or twice and won, but this deck is not mulligan friendly because it needs lots of pieces to function.

A couple other things I found out:

Valakut is a horrendous matchup. I forgot to consider it when putting in the white hate cards for combo decks, the hate I included doesn't interact with them at all. I'm not even sure what cards could be added to help this matchup, they're a combo deck that doesn't care about RiP or Ethersworn Canonist........I guess thorn of Amethyst? That hoses us too though. I really think we have to hope to dodge this matchup, and when we do get it mulligan aggressively to a turn 3 Karn b/c we are going to lose without that. When Karn does resolve, prioritize exiling Prismatic Omen, after that hit Valakut, after that hit any land b/c they need 7 in play to be lethal, if they have less than 6 lands in play go for the hand. I guess Leyline of Sancity could help this matchup too, but I hate that card in decks that can't cast it consistently, WW is stretching it a bit.

I played against a version of Jund with Boom//Bust. The matchup is still wildly in our favor. We played 5 or 6 games and he only won one of them. Their LD helps, but it doesn't change the fact that they can't beat a Wurm or Karn. In fact, their LD is just worse if we can race it and play out a Karn or Wurm first, why would they Armageddon us while we have a Karn in play?

I noticed that Spellskite can be tutored with Eye of Ugin. I find this hilarious because it might actually be relevant in some odd board state.

We are currently trying this list, which I'm intrigued by. The main deck is pretty standard except for a couple things. We took out an Oblivion Stone for a 20th mana-producing land to make up for the greediness of running Temple Garden.

The sideboard is basically solving all of our worst matchups. Aggro and Mid-Range decks are all cake, so there's really no reason to side for them. For this reason we included White for Rest in Peace, Ethersworn Canonist, and Rule of Law. These cards hose Storm and Eggs which are both horrendous matchups. Sure, they have answers to these cards, but they can't win as long they are in play, so while they wait to draw an answer we play Karn and they die.

We included 4 Spellskites because the Infect matchup is also horrendous. Like unwinnable. I haven't tried the matchup with the Skites yet, but I think with Skites in addition to Clasm and Nature's Claim (for Inkmoth) it becomes at least somewhat winnable. Before, the literal only way to beat them was to Clasm on two and then Karn on three, yeah, not likely. The Skites are also insane against the Boggle deck, which does not seem like a great matchup either. I played it once and won, but he had bad draws. Just make sure you Clasm them before they untap and put auras on their guy, don't get cute b/c they have 8 totem auras, they are threat light so one clasm may even seal it.

All is Dust is just a one of b/c it's a sweep that's a turn faster than O-stone against the Boggle deck and Infect.

Basically against Infect, we should board out the Wurms and Relics b/c they don't do anything and bring in the Claims and Skites. The same should be done against the Boggle deck, Wurm looks good there, but it isn't, they have a guy who can't be blocked except by fliers and an aura that gives Prot creatures.

More has to be said about the Jund matchup, Obstinate Baloth is a wasted slot in our sideboard. Brindle Boar is better than him, costs one less mana and gains twice as much life which is quite relevant as burn is bad for us

Wyvern and I tested the Jund matchup a bit. Game 1 we are slightly favored. They have dead cards like Bolt and Abrupt Decay. Their Inquisition of Kozilek and Thoughtseizes are largely redundant, we can ignore their discard the same way Eggs does by cycling. Their best cards game 1 are Liliana of the Veil, Deathrite Shaman, and Lingering Souls, but they are all quite beatable. Watch out for them using a kill spell on their own guy in response to Living End, it actually sometimes matters.

Game 2 we board in Dismember to deal with their Shaman. They board in a variety of cards: Rakdos Charm, Olivia Voldaren, Batterskull, Maelstrom Pulse. They can also have Rule of Law but it's quite a hit or miss card for them since we can respond to it, and it's bad post-LE. They can board out all of their dead cards making the game closer to even.

Land Death is strong against them but Avalanche Riders is too slow when on the draw, so board it out when on the draw but keep it on the play.

Their best turn 1 play is Shaman, and actually their only relevant turn 1 play. After that they should always apply pressure with a Goyf or Bob and hold something in hand to play post-LE. Remember that the CA from Bob mitigates our land death plan, as any CA mitigate any land death plan. Their best play post-LE is to slam Olivia and activate her 1R ability immediately. BBE into removal or Goyf is also good. Keep them off the slam Olivia play by keeping them off 6 mana, not too hard considering Deathrite should always be dead post-LE and we're getting a Fulminator back most likely.

I don't know how to play around Rakdos Charm, but Wyvern might. If they are holding two mana up it is obviously a tell they have it to no one's surprise. It's even good Post-LE as a giant Lava Spike of sorts. It is their deadliest cards, and learning to play around it is the key to success in this matchup.

Edit: Another thing I forgot to mention. Running the version without Simian Spirit Guide makes the matchup better because our deck is less hostile without it. The version with Pale Recluse is best because our mana is good and we consistently make land drops.

I personally think that Simians should only be in your deck if your meta has a fair amount of combo and you need to be a turn faster. Simian is just too hostile of a card in a deck that is trying to be streamlined and consistent.

Also,

FIRST