The cards that give permanent control override the until end of turn. You could dominus to take an opponent's and then donate it to yourself to gain it permanently.
So I finally realized Forbidden Orchard doesn't count as you owning the token.. So I removed it. Also took out Hindering Light.. Dismantling Blow is crazy though.
I'm thinking that Political Trickery and Shifting Borders might need to get cut. Kind of bad without Zedruu, and take 2 upkeeps to get CA with Zedruu out. It could just be because I haven't gotten to play with it enough.
It dawned on me that I have alot of Equipment tutor and ways to bring them back, but my only strong equipment is sunforger. I'm thinking that maybe I should add Sword of Fire and Ice or Sword of Feast and Famine.. Darksteel Plate might work also.
I feel like I might need another land or 2.. I just can't figure out what to cut.
Edited original post. Put reasonings for removals/additions in there
-counterbalance +suffocating Blast
-death by dragons +form of the dragon
-elixir of immortality +absorb
-font of mythos +aura of silence
-future sight +copy enchantment
-howling mine +Hanna, Ship's Navigator
-journeyer's kite +expedition map
-keiga, the tide star +Sphinx Ambassador
-magus of the future +delaying shield
-oblivion stone +final judgment
-reiterate +Hindering Light
-wild rocochet +Path to Exile
-island + Sword to Plowshares
Thanks for the response.
Delaying Shield- I saw this, only thought of it from a rattlesnake PoV though. Never considered voltron general though. I'll likely find room for this.
Form of the Dragon- This makes me lol. Never thought of this card. Pretty sweet. If I go more donate heavy I'll include this.
Statecraft- I don't think I have enough chumps in the deck to warrant this. If I go more donate heavy I might include it though.
Aeon Chronicler- I never know how to feel about this card. It's good, but it seems like his draw doesn't start happening until too late in the game.. I'll think more on this.
Bazaar Trader- Seems fun, I doubt he'll find a spot.
Psychosis Crawler- already in the list
Spectral Searchlight-hmm.. My playgroup runs few mass artifact destruction, so this may warrant a spot over darksteel ingot
Copy Enchantment- Not sure how I forgot about this card, but it's going to find it's way in..
My main problem is that I'm not sure if I should drop the sunforger package and go more donate or not.. I feel like the deck might not be focused enough, but I'm still play testing to try to decide.
I typically try to play a pillow-fort style game answering things that come at me. My wincons tend to be along the lines of donating Transcendence/Illusions or stealing something with Gilded Drake.
Cards that may be getting the boot:
Karmic Justice --> Not sure it does anything. I don't have too many threats that demand answering. Seems to just sit there.
Some cards that I am thinking about:
1x Bribery
1x Counterflux -----> Instead of Suffocating Blast? Blast has to have a target
1x Crib Swap
1x Delaying Shield
1x Hallowed Burial
1x Journey to Nowhere
1x Kor Haven
1x Rest in Peace
1x Scroll Rack
1x Spin into Myth
1x Trading Post
1x Weathered Wayfarer
So, after playing for a while, I realized that unfun cards are unfun.. Cut the infinite combos and the Sundering Titan. I got ahold of stuff like Gauntlet of Might...
In english it's only black bordered. For some reason, there was another language (Portuguese?) where all Mana Crypts were printed in whiteborders. Not entirely sure on the whole background story behind it though.
Valid points.. I (and my bank account) enjoy simpler mana bases. I did forget about Karador though, hmm seems interesting. I'm probably going to go for the Nath build unless someone gives me some decent reasons for bgw
This discussion is for a multiplayer build, with no budget (as long as no single card is > $100)
Ok, so I am wanting to make a new edh deck, and decided to go with a Death Cloud Rock approach. I can't decide what colors to do though... My main thoughts are either:
b/g would give me a more stable mana base and I think would be somewhat more consistent.
b/g/w would let me have more cheap board wipes and give me a few more solid creatures, especially if doran is my general (cards like Indomitable Ancients)
I'd love some input on what you guys think about which colors would work best for a Deathcloud/Rock approach. Also, any strong card or general recomendations would help too.
A powerful toolbox card is a tutor that is cheap and strong enough to allow greatly increased consistency in early-game plays or very immediate responses in the mid to late game. Examples would be the tutors I mentioned above, things like Diabolic Tutor that are banned in Legacy for a reason. Power is, of course, relative; Gifts Ungiven is a powerful toolbox card, but it's less so than Diabolic Tutor by some significant margin -- Gifts costs more, gives your opponent choice (Unless used in some much narrower applications where it only gives the illusion of choice), and reveals information; to me banning Gifts Ungiven in a format where Diabolic Tutor is legal also seems absurd.
In multiplayer EDH, cheap spells are deceptively powerful; a lot of people think that because games run long enough for seven-drops to be routinely relevant, mana costs don't exist in EDH, but that's nonsense. Cheap spells that are powerful allow you to do things before others can respond to them, and it allows you to do things without having to pass the turn, both of which lead to decks that are more consistent and less interactive.
And, the idea of an alternate banlist would be to have a community around it to test and work towards consensus. If people play the alternate format and find that it's problematic with some element removed, then that gets added back in; if there is a consensus among the people using the banlist, and a given group of players doesn't like the environment that this banlist creates, then they're welcome not to play with it! It's not an attempt at imposing anything or anybody or claiming that any one group of players has the One True Way of playing Magic.
The problem that I have with your arguments is that you assume people don't do degenerate things and something like protean hulk is just an expensive tutor for small creatures. Protean hulk is so much more than that because he is a creature and there exist other creatures to manipulate stupid combos where you only have to draw that first piece.
Gifts is in the same boat. You know the counter argument though... otherwise you wouldn't have put "Unless used in some much narrower applications where it only gives the illusion of choice". The problem is that "narrower application". If a casual minded person person is just making his green blue edh deck and throws gifts in, then it probably won't hurt much and be a "I hope my opponent does something stupid" situation. Once he goes online and reads some stupid combo that some hardcore person made though, the card becomes 2 demonic tutor and 2 entomb in one sweet U3 package... It's another "1 card that sets up a whole combo" card just like hulk.
They ban things like this because they tend to be unfun for groups, and it just makes things like demonic tutor even better... Instead of your normal tutors (demonic,diabolic,vampiric,etc.) tutoring for a piece of a combo, they now tutor for a whole combo.
EDIT::: herp derp, I type too slow and the guys ahead of me beat me >.<
I'm thinking that Political Trickery and Shifting Borders might need to get cut. Kind of bad without Zedruu, and take 2 upkeeps to get CA with Zedruu out. It could just be because I haven't gotten to play with it enough.
It dawned on me that I have alot of Equipment tutor and ways to bring them back, but my only strong equipment is sunforger. I'm thinking that maybe I should add Sword of Fire and Ice or Sword of Feast and Famine.. Darksteel Plate might work also.
I feel like I might need another land or 2.. I just can't figure out what to cut.
-counterbalance +suffocating Blast
-death by dragons +form of the dragon
-elixir of immortality +absorb
-font of mythos +aura of silence
-future sight +copy enchantment
-howling mine +Hanna, Ship's Navigator
-journeyer's kite +expedition map
-keiga, the tide star +Sphinx Ambassador
-magus of the future +delaying shield
-oblivion stone +final judgment
-reiterate +Hindering Light
-wild rocochet +Path to Exile
-island + Sword to Plowshares
Delaying Shield- I saw this, only thought of it from a rattlesnake PoV though. Never considered voltron general though. I'll likely find room for this.
Form of the Dragon- This makes me lol. Never thought of this card. Pretty sweet. If I go more donate heavy I'll include this.
Statecraft- I don't think I have enough chumps in the deck to warrant this. If I go more donate heavy I might include it though.
Aeon Chronicler- I never know how to feel about this card. It's good, but it seems like his draw doesn't start happening until too late in the game.. I'll think more on this.
Bazaar Trader- Seems fun, I doubt he'll find a spot.
Psychosis Crawler- already in the list
Spectral Searchlight-hmm.. My playgroup runs few mass artifact destruction, so this may warrant a spot over darksteel ingot
Copy Enchantment- Not sure how I forgot about this card, but it's going to find it's way in..
My main problem is that I'm not sure if I should drop the sunforger package and go more donate or not.. I feel like the deck might not be focused enough, but I'm still play testing to try to decide.
1x Zedruu the Greathearted
Ramp:
1x Chromatic Lantern
1x Coalition Relic
1x Darksteel Ingot
1x Expedition Map
1x Gilded Lotus
1x Sol Ring
1x Land Tax
1x Oath of Lieges
1x Eternal Dragon
1x Solemn Simulacrum
Protection:
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Swiftfoot Boots
Draw:
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Rhystic Study
1x Consecrated Sphinx
Sunforger Package:
1x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Stonehewer Giant
1x Steelshaper's Gift
1x Godo, Bandit Warlord
1x Sunforger
1x Absorb
1x Chaos Warp
1x Counterflux
1x Dismantling Blow
1x Double Negative
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Oblation
1x Orim's Thunder
1x Path to Exile
1x Return to Dust
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Tithe
1x Wild Ricochet
1x Austere Command
1x Wrath of God
1x Terminus
1x Rout
Good Stuff:
1x Rite of Replication
1x Paradox Haze
1x Copy Enchantment
1x Venser, the Sojourner
1x Hanna, Ship's Navigator
1x Keiga, the Tide Star
1x Sun Titan
Pillows:
1x Collective Restraint
1x Ghostly Prison
1x Karmic Justice
1x Propaganda
1x Solitary Confinement
1x Windborn Muse
Destruction:
1x Aura of Silence
1x Detention Sphere
1x Oblivion Ring
Zedruu stuff:
1x Celestial Dawn
1x Illusions of Grandeur
1x Transcendence
1x Gilded Drake
1x Vedalken Plotter
Tutors:
1x Wild Research
1x Idyllic Tutor
1x Academy Rector
Lands (38):
1x Academy Ruins
1x Adarkar Wastes
1x Arid Mesa
1x Azorius Chancery
1x Battlefield Forge
1x Boros Garrison
1x Buried Ruin
1x Cascade Bluffs
1x Command Tower
1x Flooded Strand
1x Hallowed Fountain
3x Island
1x Kher Keep
1x Marsh Flats
1x Maze of Ith
1x Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1x Mistveil Plains
2x Mountain
1x Mystic Gate
3x Plains
1x Plateau
1x Reflecting Pool
1x Reliquary Tower
1x Rugged Prairie
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Steam Vents
1x Strip Mine
1x Tolaria West
1x Tundra
1x Vivid Meadow
1x Volcanic Island
1x Windswept Heath
I typically try to play a pillow-fort style game answering things that come at me. My wincons tend to be along the lines of donating Transcendence/Illusions or stealing something with Gilded Drake.
Cards that may be getting the boot:
Karmic Justice --> Not sure it does anything. I don't have too many threats that demand answering. Seems to just sit there.
Some cards that I am thinking about:
1x Bribery
1x Counterflux -----> Instead of Suffocating Blast? Blast has to have a target
1x Crib Swap
1x Delaying Shield
1x Hallowed Burial
1x Journey to Nowhere
1x Kor Haven
1x Rest in Peace
1x Scroll Rack
1x Spin into Myth
1x Trading Post
1x Weathered Wayfarer
Suggestions welcome!
Ok, so I am wanting to make a new edh deck, and decided to go with a Death Cloud Rock approach. I can't decide what colors to do though... My main thoughts are either:
b/g- Probably Nath of the Gilt-Leaf as the general
Very Similar to something like this primer:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=277909
b/g/w- Probably Doran, the Siege Tower as the general
b/g would give me a more stable mana base and I think would be somewhat more consistent.
b/g/w would let me have more cheap board wipes and give me a few more solid creatures, especially if doran is my general (cards like Indomitable Ancients)
I'd love some input on what you guys think about which colors would work best for a Deathcloud/Rock approach. Also, any strong card or general recomendations would help too.
Thanks
The problem that I have with your arguments is that you assume people don't do degenerate things and something like protean hulk is just an expensive tutor for small creatures. Protean hulk is so much more than that because he is a creature and there exist other creatures to manipulate stupid combos where you only have to draw that first piece.
Gifts is in the same boat. You know the counter argument though... otherwise you wouldn't have put "Unless used in some much narrower applications where it only gives the illusion of choice". The problem is that "narrower application". If a casual minded person person is just making his green blue edh deck and throws gifts in, then it probably won't hurt much and be a "I hope my opponent does something stupid" situation. Once he goes online and reads some stupid combo that some hardcore person made though, the card becomes 2 demonic tutor and 2 entomb in one sweet U3 package... It's another "1 card that sets up a whole combo" card just like hulk.
They ban things like this because they tend to be unfun for groups, and it just makes things like demonic tutor even better... Instead of your normal tutors (demonic,diabolic,vampiric,etc.) tutoring for a piece of a combo, they now tutor for a whole combo.
EDIT::: herp derp, I type too slow and the guys ahead of me beat me >.<