I'm gonna have to agree with everyone else and say start them with something linear while they play a few games and learn the format. I'd like to suggest aggro Sram, though the random auras it needs aren't usually just lying around for most people. But, it is an efficient deck, it's not expensive to build, it's easy to play, it helps keep the newbie's hand full of cards, and it can even pull off a win.
Thanks for all the suggestions, guys. After playing a few games over the last few days I learned the value of some of your suggestions. Counterspells were especially useful as I found myself having to try and stop other combo decks, though I never got the chance to use one to defend my own plays. Remand was especially silly, as I wound up using it to counter one of my own spells for an additional two draws (1 for casting the spell that triggers jhoira, another for Remand, and a third for casting the same artifact spell again).
I cut a lot of the silly win-more stuff (like the niv mizzets), as I decided to go smaller and took some inspiration from eggs. Other casualties of going lean were cards like Tezzeret the Seeker, who often times felt kind of like bloated "storm count" cards for Aetherflux Reservoir or a free draw from Jhoira after he untapped something like basalt monolith and sol ring. However, I have still kept multiple win conditions in Aetherflux Resevoir and Laboratory Maniac.
Big thanks for the Laboratory Maniac suggestion. His trigger was a lot harder for opponents to to interact with compared to Psychosis Crawler.
The biggest change was going smaller on the average CMC. It only brought the deck down about a turn in reliability for the combo (t6 to t5), but the upshot has been less outlier games where the deck completely stalls out. In fact, I've had more outlier games trend to t4 wins (disclaimer: it could also be luck, as I've only played a dozen or so games since the changes).
I still haven't tested Blood Moon or Back to Basics, but I do like the suggestion and will hopefully get around to testing it. Transmute Artifact hasn't made the deck because of current monetary restraints, but I'll probably play it over gamble when the time comes.
Right now my biggest concern is that I still have some slower cards that nine times out of ten wind up only being useful because they trigger jhoira during the combo run (padeem, slobad, karn, and ugin often fall into this category). Even worse, they sometimes clog up the combo early on because they require too much mana to cast and continue. Part of me just wants to play more rocks (maybe basalt monolith or grim monolith), but they haven't improved consistency or speed enough to warrant the risk.
Sometimes I wish we could retire this topic from the board. It's toxic.
People enjoy different things for different reasons. Not all players have compatible play styles, and that's ok. One of the things that keeps the format popular is its appeal to a wide variety of players. That's why WotC supports it with a yearly product; that's why they keep this format in mind when designing sets. The health of the format and the card supply depend on having multiple ideas of what constitutes fun. Let people have theirs and you find yours.
We should count our blessing we play a format where there is a play-group for everyone, even if not every play-group is for everyone.
That and you could be right that I'm just the low powered outlier walking into a firestorm of spikes or simply more devoted players of the game.
My worries is more so tuning up the deck too much and then burning someone else.
I'm someone who prefers "shoe box" EDH, but I haven't been able to play a game in years. My group is mostly made up of players who have tuned or optimized decks. If you want to play shoe box games and you can find others who desire that power range, then I would suggest taking that route. However, if you find you are the outlier and you still desire to play with the group that has ratcheted it up the next notch, assimilate. Other newbs to the group will go through the same process. They'll either adapt or find a different group that is more suited to their needs.
Sometimes players get burned in a game. It's bound to happen when you're playing against new people. A friendly attitude can go a long way into keeping them around and balancing out power levels between decks. Not everyone will like it and some people might call you a try hard after playing a single game with you. All you can do is brush it off because not everyone is meant to like the same things or play at the same table.
In a four player game with four competent players who have access to the same cards (everyone plays upon an agreed card pool and no one is forced to play budget decks against optimized decks) then it's fine. Assuming no one player draws acceleration while everyone else is playing pass, the game should oftentimes be long with enough fun plays that someone tutoring and ending the game after eight is no big deal.
What an impressive answer! You have opened my eyes.
"Relies on stuff", like resolving spells and mana rocks.
Obviously, I was unaware of these requirements!
Maybe next time point out a better monoblue combo, instead of just pointing out the obvious.
It would be nice to get the combo laid out as opposed to the nebulous good stuff answer. This is especially true because we are looking for broken combos (combos with easy mana investments that win the turn they are played). What the other poster is saying is they believes the combo you have laid out requires too many other cards in hand besides gifts to be viable the turn it is played, with exception of a late game combo (but late game combos are usually considered not "broken" in the sense it's already been defined in). I'm inclined to agree with him, but I'm open to seeing the math if you'd oblige us.
I don't know if I'd play him over mox monkey and I don't know if I'd even play him with options such as Shattering Spree and Vandalblast. His value comes from being repeatable, so I could see him being in the 99 for redundancy in metas which are heavy with decks that play many 1-2 drop rocks that aren't necessarily always on the board at the same time.
I see a little discussion on The Scarab God happened a couple weeks ago, but if I could still weigh in, I'd say he's better as a commander of U/B reanimator style deck that commits to the strategy as opposed to the head of Zombie Tribal, light or otherwise. Full disclosure, my GnG list is heavy zombie tribal so my experience swapping him in for Gisa and Geralf is based on that. My meta also skews towards people playing tuned decks (I get to lose quite often with silly tribal decks).
In a list like yours, I have a hard time seeing his value in the command zone or in the ninety-nine. His first ability is usually just gravy, cold gravy at that since it's considered "reliable" only as early as turn five with ramp. Even in a heavy zombie list like mine, I had a hard time making his triggered ability matter in games I wasn't already comfortable in. His second ability can't make up for a lack of board presence as you already noted and it isn't good for creating numbers quickly.
Now to the part I haven't tested: from experience in zombie tribal, I'm left to believe that his best value would be in a deck where he is a dedicated reanimator. However, that's a different strategy from my list and your list. TSG needs a lot of creatures with ETB abilities that also don't mind being 4/4s (which can be an insignificant amount of P/T after turn 6). As cool as it is to entombMikaeus, the Unhallowed and reanimate him at instant speed to save your board, it's still too fringe a case to just swap him in for GnG.
All that said, he is fun to play.
I have an unrelated question for your list: how good is wayfarer's bauble for you? You have so many good targets for Expedition Map that I'm wondering why it isn't that slot. Is the ramp that important in your meta?
I've had Darien since Alara Block. Otherwise it's been constantly ripping apart and building. I'm more attracted to brewing lists than actually playing.
Looking through the list I'm not sure how well it would work, but are there are not enough cards/strategies that work well with Intuition to make it a "damned if they do, damned if they don't" scenario? I could see how it would be challenging to create those plays if keeping GnG on the battlefield is difficult (that cuts down on many zombie options such as getting Fleshbag in the grave to cast). Plus, there isn't an obvious cut for it. The most similar card is probably FoF, but it's much more reliable (as you get the choice) plus it's still at instant speed.
Hey guys, remember that stating you don't enjoy the art is not the same as giving inflammatory feedback that unfairly criticizes the artist on a non-constructive level. Artists for MtG are highly trained and devoted to creating pieces which people will enjoy as well as trying to stick to the art direction they are given. I'm sure Vincent Proce did his best as an artist to fulfill both of these obligations, so please try to keep criticism respectful.
Scooping is a legal action within the realm of the game and its rules. It should be taken into consideration as a decision an opponent can make. However, if a playgroup still wants the triggers to go off, that's up to them.
1 Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain
Rocks (20)
1 Lotus petal
1 Mox Opal
1 Mox Amber
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Thought Vessel
1 Prismatic Lens
1 Star Compass
1 Coldsteel Heart
1 Izzet Signet
1 Everflowing Chalice
1 Commander's Sphere
1 Basalt Monolith
1 Worn Powerstone
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Hedron Archive
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Dreamstone Hedron
Other Ramp (3)
1 Etherium Sculptor
1 Foundry Inspector
1 Voltaic Key
1 Dack Fayden
1 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
Non-Artifact Legendaries (2)
1 Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
Cards that don't trigger Jhoira (15)
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Remand
1 Gamble
1 Mana Drain
1 Chaos Warp
1 Brainstorm
1 Reshape
1 Fabricate
1 Trinket Mage
1 Goblin Welder
1 Whir of Invention
1 Faithless Looting
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Pact of Negation
Combo Pieces (4)
1 Etherium-Horn Sorcerer
1 Paradox Engine
1 Aetherflux Reservoir
1 Laboratory Maniac
Draw/Fixing (13)
1 Scroll Rack
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Azor's Gateway
1 Alhammarret's Archive
1 Memory Jar
1 Codex Shredder
1 Chromatic Sphere
1 Urza's Bauble
1 Chromatic Star
1 Conjurer's Bauble
1 Terrarion
1 Prophetic Prism
1 Mishra's Bauble
1 Sculpting Steel
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
Artifact-Baeed Removal (4)
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Duplicant
1 Brittle Effigy
1 Tormod's Crypt
Land (34)
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Steam Vents
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Spirebluff Canal
1 Academy Ruins
16 Island
12 Mountain
Thanks for all the suggestions, guys. After playing a few games over the last few days I learned the value of some of your suggestions. Counterspells were especially useful as I found myself having to try and stop other combo decks, though I never got the chance to use one to defend my own plays. Remand was especially silly, as I wound up using it to counter one of my own spells for an additional two draws (1 for casting the spell that triggers jhoira, another for Remand, and a third for casting the same artifact spell again).
I cut a lot of the silly win-more stuff (like the niv mizzets), as I decided to go smaller and took some inspiration from eggs. Other casualties of going lean were cards like Tezzeret the Seeker, who often times felt kind of like bloated "storm count" cards for Aetherflux Reservoir or a free draw from Jhoira after he untapped something like basalt monolith and sol ring. However, I have still kept multiple win conditions in Aetherflux Resevoir and Laboratory Maniac.
Big thanks for the Laboratory Maniac suggestion. His trigger was a lot harder for opponents to to interact with compared to Psychosis Crawler.
The biggest change was going smaller on the average CMC. It only brought the deck down about a turn in reliability for the combo (t6 to t5), but the upshot has been less outlier games where the deck completely stalls out. In fact, I've had more outlier games trend to t4 wins (disclaimer: it could also be luck, as I've only played a dozen or so games since the changes).
I still haven't tested Blood Moon or Back to Basics, but I do like the suggestion and will hopefully get around to testing it. Transmute Artifact hasn't made the deck because of current monetary restraints, but I'll probably play it over gamble when the time comes.
1 Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain
Rocks (18)
1 Mox Opal
1 Mox Amber
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Thought Vessel
1 Prismatic Lens
1 Star Compass
1 Coldsteel Heart
1 Izzet Signet
1 Everflowing Chalice
1 Commander's Sphere
1 Worn Powerstone
1 Thran Dynamo
1 Hedron Archive
1 Gilded Lotus
1 Dreamstone Hedron
Other Ramp (5)
1 Etherium Sculptor
1 Foundry Inspector
1 Jhoira's Familiar
1 Clock of Omens
1 Voltaic Key
1 Saheeli Rai
1 Dack Fayden
1 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Daretti, Scrap Savant
1 Ral Zarek
1 Tezzeret The Seeker
1 Teferi, Temporal Archmage
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
1 Karn Liberated
1 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon
Non-Artifact Legendaries (4)
1 Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer
1 Storm The Vault
1 Padeem, Consul of Innovation
1 Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
Cards that don't trigger Jhoira (10)
1 Brainstorm
1 Reshape
1 Fabricate
1 Trinket Mage
1 Goblin Welder
1 Whir of Invention
1 Faithless Looting
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Reforge the soul
1 Hellkite Igniter
1 Etherium-Horn Sorcerer
1 Paradox Engine
1 Aetherflux Reservoir
1 Psychosis Crawler
1 Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
1 The Locust God
Draw/Fixing (5)
1 Scroll Rack
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Azor's Gateway
1 Alhammarret's Archive
1 Memory Jar
Cloning (3)
1 Sculpting Steel
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Mirrorworks
Removal (3)
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Duplicant
1 Brittle Effigy
Land (35)
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Steam Vents
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Spirebluff Canal
17 Island
13 Mountain
The basic premise of the deck is to dump artifacts in an attempt to draw either paradox engine or a card that searches for paradox engine. Once engine is out the deck plays spells that either trigger Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain or allow another card (such as azor's gateway) to draw more cards in order to cast more cards (rinse, repeat, yadda-yadda) until win conditions such as aetherflux reservoir, psychosis crawler, or Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind are found.
Right now my biggest concern is that I still have some slower cards that nine times out of ten wind up only being useful because they trigger jhoira during the combo run (padeem, slobad, karn, and ugin often fall into this category). Even worse, they sometimes clog up the combo early on because they require too much mana to cast and continue. Part of me just wants to play more rocks (maybe basalt monolith or grim monolith), but they haven't improved consistency or speed enough to warrant the risk.
I would appreciate suggestions.
People enjoy different things for different reasons. Not all players have compatible play styles, and that's ok. One of the things that keeps the format popular is its appeal to a wide variety of players. That's why WotC supports it with a yearly product; that's why they keep this format in mind when designing sets. The health of the format and the card supply depend on having multiple ideas of what constitutes fun. Let people have theirs and you find yours.
We should count our blessing we play a format where there is a play-group for everyone, even if not every play-group is for everyone.
I'm someone who prefers "shoe box" EDH, but I haven't been able to play a game in years. My group is mostly made up of players who have tuned or optimized decks. If you want to play shoe box games and you can find others who desire that power range, then I would suggest taking that route. However, if you find you are the outlier and you still desire to play with the group that has ratcheted it up the next notch, assimilate. Other newbs to the group will go through the same process. They'll either adapt or find a different group that is more suited to their needs.
Sometimes players get burned in a game. It's bound to happen when you're playing against new people. A friendly attitude can go a long way into keeping them around and balancing out power levels between decks. Not everyone will like it and some people might call you a try hard after playing a single game with you. All you can do is brush it off because not everyone is meant to like the same things or play at the same table.
It would be nice to get the combo laid out as opposed to the nebulous good stuff answer. This is especially true because we are looking for broken combos (combos with easy mana investments that win the turn they are played). What the other poster is saying is they believes the combo you have laid out requires too many other cards in hand besides gifts to be viable the turn it is played, with exception of a late game combo (but late game combos are usually considered not "broken" in the sense it's already been defined in). I'm inclined to agree with him, but I'm open to seeing the math if you'd oblige us.
What I have is:
Must open with: Gifts Ungiven and either Sol Ring, Mana Vault, or Mana Crypt (with three options I'll give it a chance but two cards in the opener in not ideal)
Turn 1: Land, Sol ring, pass
Turn 2: Land, pass (Gifts Ungiven at Opponent 3's end step for Fabricate, Mystical Tutor, Archaeomancer, Mnemonic Wall) Assume your target gives you the wall and wizard
Turn 3: Land, Archaeomancer (returning Fabricate) pass
Turn 4: Land Fabricate (for Isochron Scepter), pass
Turn 5: (no fifth land drop) Mnemonic wall (for Mystical tutor), pass
Turn 6: Isochron Scepter (imprinting mystical tutor) [combo time]
In a list like yours, I have a hard time seeing his value in the command zone or in the ninety-nine. His first ability is usually just gravy, cold gravy at that since it's considered "reliable" only as early as turn five with ramp. Even in a heavy zombie list like mine, I had a hard time making his triggered ability matter in games I wasn't already comfortable in. His second ability can't make up for a lack of board presence as you already noted and it isn't good for creating numbers quickly.
Now to the part I haven't tested: from experience in zombie tribal, I'm left to believe that his best value would be in a deck where he is a dedicated reanimator. However, that's a different strategy from my list and your list. TSG needs a lot of creatures with ETB abilities that also don't mind being 4/4s (which can be an insignificant amount of P/T after turn 6). As cool as it is to entomb Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and reanimate him at instant speed to save your board, it's still too fringe a case to just swap him in for GnG.
All that said, he is fun to play.
I have an unrelated question for your list: how good is wayfarer's bauble for you? You have so many good targets for Expedition Map that I'm wondering why it isn't that slot. Is the ramp that important in your meta?