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  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 08/07/2019)
    Quote from Galerion »
    Quote from icehippo »
    I can see this however the one major tournament (GP) there was, as well as the SCG team event, didn’t show that the deck was all that oppressive. Only 2 copies in the top 8 doesn’t quite live up to the hype of this obscene win rate wotc claims and isn’t exactly tier 0. UW Control also put 2 copies in the same top 8 and we aren’t calling for bans on Control.


    Maybe not here directly but I have certainly seen people elsewhere being salty about UWs ever increasing power level. Maybe all the Midrange and Jank players Laughing


    If you're a lingering souls mid range player you want to see UW. When I was playing Esper Midrange (granted, a jank deck) I'd love to see UWx control across from me. It's not too difficult to build mid-range decks to be positive against UW. There are certainly a fair amount of grindy tools in the format. A deck like Mardu would also love to sit across from UW every round. UW is certainly a strong deck, but it's not a giant.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 20/05/2019)
    Quote from Ayiluss »
    Red Bull tournament in Brussels was indeed good with pretty nice metagamne but I will contribute most of this to Hogaak. Hogaak keeps tron and some other decks in check allowing more fair decks to compete. If Hogaak is banned Tron will come back and uw control will be the only viable fair deck again as it used to be pre-Hogaak. This is far from great and balanced format unless you enjoy uw being the only decent fair deck while others (mostly midrange) are basically dead.

    Just a few words by me. I don't post here for several years now because you can't discuss anything productive but I just wanted to say this (although it might be better if I didn't as this).


    To be fair, I think Jund has the best Tron MU it has ever had, if you build a little for it. You have Assassin's Tropy, Unearth + Fulminator Mage, Wrenn and Six + GQ, Collector Ouphe, plus of course Surgical to go with the LD. Jund's never had it as good against Tron.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 20/05/2019)
    If Hogaak is fine then 90% of the cards on the banlist need to come off tomorrow. They're a joke compared to the format. GSZ, SFM, Twin, Artifact lands, Pod, Dread Return (lol), Cloudpost, DRS, GGT (lol), Preordain, Punishing Fire, Jitte, etc. Modern is what legacy would look like without safety valves.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on [MH1] Modern Horizons Discussion Thread
    Quote from idSurge »
    Quote from rowej »
    I'm legit shocked so many people are complaining.

    Tons of cards in this set are going to Top 8 GP/PT's over the next year and we STILL have cards left to go...


    Which tons? Legit curious as I dont see a lot that are going to slot into power decks.


    Horizon Lands
    Prismatic Vista
    Archmage's Charm
    Force cycle (mostly UG)
    Step-mom
    Fluster will probably show up in lists (0-1)
    Collector Ouphe
    On Thin Ice (1-2 UW Control and lots of other fringe decks)
    Plague Engineer
    Tribute Mage
    Pillage
    Scale Up
    Ore-Scale Guardian (This is being slept on for UR phoenix)

    One's I'm less confident will be T8, but have a decent shot:
    Ranger-Captain of Eos (If in humans will show up, but boosts power of a lot of fringe decks)
    Unearth
    Regrowth (JAC? Potential)
    Eladamri's Call (Neoform, Naya Breach, we'll see)
    FoF (1 of UWx, better in UB, storm SB?)
    Goblin Engineer (who knows here...)
    Urza (Potentially busted, or a non-player)
    Seasoned Pyromancer (Will see play, but not sure how prevalent)
    Lava Dart (Mono-Red Phoenix, I think Firebolt is better in UR Phoenix)
    Wrenn and Six (Pretty good chance here, it's powerful and a good enabler)
    Kaya's Guile (versatile, but in a generally poor color combination)
    Ice-Fang Coatl (same as Guile, but if there is a snow deck it's probably built on the back of this guy)
    Talismans (Better than they're given credit for, I think the RW one has some potential to turn on Blast/Dispatch in a more controlly build possibly with Resto-Kiki combo to ramp into)
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on The Rock
    Quote from Spsiegel1987 »
    Nissa's Oath is so underwhelming and at 2 mana feels like a bad play. Something like Mirri's Guile at 1 would be fantastic, for example.

    Sylvan Library (which absolutely won't happen).

    Or some kind of DRS efficient threat. All I know is throwing more removal isn't what needs to be done. We have absolutely nothing to ensure flooding. Meanwhile, decks are getting leaner, running less lands, cantripping, or outright winning so quickly. Fair decks need some unfair element added to the mix.


    Oath of Nissa is 1 CMC. It's underrated in general imho, but I don't think it fits BGx midrange decks unless more removal gets stapled onto creatures then it starts to get really good (like it is in Bant with Spell Quellers, Deputy of Detention, Ice-Fang Coatl, etc.).
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on [MH1] Modern Horizons Discussion Thread
    Quote from Snowflakes »
    Quote from ktkenshinx »
    The negativity towards this set, whether in this thread or the Reddit comment sections, is just unwarranted.

    1. Less than half of the set has been spoiled. Wizards obviously started with some big ones like FoN, but it's been much slower since then. It is like this every preview season as the previews are a curated experience that need to appeal to various players. Wizards intersperses exciting cards to keep hype high.

    2. All Magic communities frequently miss powerful cards. Powerhouses like WAR Narset were under-appreciated by most evaluators until people started playing the set. LSV, Joel Larsson, MTG Goldfish, Dylan Donegan, Emma Handy, and a half dozen other writers barely mentioned Search for Azcanta in their Modern reviews (or didn't mention it at all). I don't remember reading a single Modern review of Rivals that included Arclight Phoenix. Card evaluation is hard and people need to play cards to figure out if they are actually good or bad.

    3. There are numerous eternal staples that Wizards has not yet referenced or remade for Modern. Some, like FoN and FoW are clearly on-mark. Others, like Mom and Giver, are more open. Still others, like Pondering Mage, are clearly just references and probably not as powerful. But any number of the remaining throwbacks, most of which are obviously absent right now, could be very strong. Examples include Daze, Wasteland, Brainstorm, Hymn, Port, and others. I am excited to see these cards, and it will only take 1 to have a huge impact.


    It just seems like basic entitlement and assumption that what they want is all that matters. I've seen a few people say the total opposite of things that have been mentioned here, modern is it's own format and is vastly different from legacy and should be, it being a less powerful legacy is just not a good idea.

    I'm glad they went about it this way, there's some pretty good cards, and even some potentially broken or format warping cards included in the first half alone. What this set has done for just random theorycrafting is awesome and there's some interesting new decks potentially to come out of this set and some new cards for older decks already of various power levels.

    Instead of complaining about what isn't there yet with still half a set to come out start theorycrafting and testing with what we've got.

    I for one am pretty happy with some of these cards, albeit I feel some colours have gotten a lot less, probably cause I think blue seems to have gotten so much so far and I would like to see some additions for other colours.


    Most of the people bitching are bitching because the set has almost zero relevant answers to slow the format down or create a more interactive environment. There's more EDH non-sense than needed answers for the format. How many times have we heard "Wait for MH", they can't print XYZ needed answer in standard it's too powerful "Wait for MH", no need to look at the banlist "Wait for MH". Well, we've waited, and what we've gotten so far is a farce. No one asked for a white reprint of Beast Within (a not playable card outside of LE decks). A 2 mana Swords though...would be useful. Awful red burn spells that can't efficiently deal with X/5's? No one said sign me up for that. For a set called "Modern Horizons" and a player base chanting, "Wait for MH" for needed answers, the set has tremendously flopped so far.

    Maybe we're all wrong though and WoTC left all the answer cards to be spoiled in the second week...I doubt it though.
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 20/05/2019)
    I know we're only 90 cards deep, but holy balls, the distinct lack of any playable answers outside the green force for artifact decks (in the SB) is a joke. No, prohibit/exclude is not modern playable. FoN is SB material at best (There are way too many creature decks to MB such a narrow card in this format...I know, the amount of games I've lost because I'm holding negate/countersquall is ludicrous), Firebolt is interesting in a deck like Phoenix, but it's not really playable as a catch-all answer. Where's Deed, Vindicate, Swords, Abrupt Decay/Assassin's Trophy, (RIP Counterspell), cheap red removal to deal with X/5's, Containment Priest/GY hate, Tribal hate (E-Plague, etc.), Port, more non-basic hate, etc. There's nothing.

    There is however, a ***** load of non-sense tribal/EDH cards and very low power level callbacks (bad bad preordain, 5 mana ponder, did we really need a white beast within?, etc.). The marketing of this set has been atrocious.

    Feels like the format is rewarding the linear decks even more with this set (the Canopy lands tend to be much better in decks like burn, bogles, etc., than mid-range/control decks), really good infect card, tribal aggro, etc.

    I'm really tired of WoTC designing premium sets primarily for limited. Most people aren't going to regularly draft your 7$+ booster set. Burns my britches. /rantover
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on [WAR] War of the Spark Previews: Modern Discussion
    Quote from idSurge »
    Quote from Arkmer »
    Has anyone been brewing with Ral, Storm Conduit? There was a fair amount of hype around him for a few days after his spoiling and now I haven't heard a mention anywhere. I'm curious if anyone has come up with any rough deck lists involving the copy combo as a plan A or B.


    I wouldnt bother with that. Put him in Wizards, and Tempo them out with Bolts 1 - 8, and Wizards flashing in, and if they tap out? Ral, -2, Bolt, Snap, Bolt for 16 damage...


    Am I missing something here...that should be 12 damage.

    (3 bolts + 3 pings from Ral)
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 11/03/2019)
    Quote from gkourou »
    To be honest, I don't see UR Phoenix that way. CFB reported a 50% win rate of the deck. This is fine, if you ask me. It's just that lots of people wanted to play a UR deck, since it's fun and people seen to like playing it.


    The deck was 50% at the latest GP, with the deck warping itself to win in the mirror, and the format warping around itself to beat it...yet it still posted a greater than 50 win%. That's impressive. If you don't cherry pick your data Phoenix has been running between 53-58%. You can argue not to ban something without resorting to obviously ridiculous lies and half truths.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on BW Tokens
    You realize Vindicate is not Modern legal right?
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on Print this Wizards (so I can play it in modern)
    Abrupt Exile WB
    Instant - R
    Exile target non-land permanent with CMC 3 or less. You gain 2 life.

    Feel like a MB answer to artifacts/enchantments/planeswalkers is what is missing for BW midrange (well that and a 2 drop threat other than Confidant).
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on [POLL] What cards do you want banned or unbanned in the November 26, 2018 announcement?
    Quote from ktkenshinx »
    Quote from purklefluff »
    Quote from ktkenshinx »
    Unban: SFM
    Ban: Stirrings

    SFM is a joke ban, nothing more to say about it. Stirrings represents an inconsistency with Preordain. I could easily switch that vote to a Preordain unban, but as I think Wizards has a ideological problem with blue cantrips, I think the Stirrings ban vote is more realistic.


    I'm disappointed that you became a proponent of the non-argument whereby the fact that preordain remains banned means that stirrings needs to be banned.

    There's no real link between the two cards which can be drawn to this effect. It's a false correlation.
    Preordain, as you well know was banned at a time when the critical mass of blue cantrips was an issue and blue combo was high profile. The fact that any of those cantrips remain on the banlist is more to do with how static the banlist is, than anything else. Cards rarely come off, and the presumption is that unbanning a card brings associated risks. Just because another card currently legal is (in your eyes) equal or better, (in another colour no less) doesn't affect those potential risks associated with unbanning something. One cannot say: "preordain is still banned, so this other card X should be banned along with it". It does not follow logically to make that statement.

    Conversely, stirrings itself is an engine for an entirely different kind of deck. The kind of deck that needs those sorts of consistency tools and doesn't have a reasonable alternative. We are not in a world of critical mass-driven problems relating to decks using stirrings, and stirrings itself, while good, isn't causing the downfall or destruction of modern. It isn't a problem; it's just another viable, potent card in a format of viable potent cards.

    I agree we could likely see preordain return and I doubt it would cause too much issue. That's for WotC to decide.
    Claiming that the decision on preordain has any bearing whatsoever on cards like stirrings though? That's false equivalency. It's pseudo-logic. It's a very commonly-used argument but regardless of how many people use it, it doesn't make sense.

    Preordain just sets a precedent that Wizards is willing to ban a consistency tool (e.g. Preordain or Stirrings) if the decks that use that card break a format rule (e.g. T4 rule or format diversity rule). But it's not just Preordain. A number of other cards have been banned because they collectively made a set of strategies too good. TC was actually the prime example I discussed in the other thread, and TC/Stirrings remains a good comparison when we compare the circumstances that led to a TC ban to those that could lead to a Stirrings ban. TC was banned because it reduced format diversity by empowering a range of decks that were individually distinct and not violating format rules but were collectively reducing format diversity by virtue of TC's power. Stirrings could be in a similar position.

    Again, as I said in the other thread, it's not a red flag issue for me yet. It's merely an orange flag issue if we review 2018 GP stats which shows Stirrings decks make up 30% of the GP/PT T8 metagame. There is no other single card commonality that approaches this plurality. Anyone who does not think this is an orange flag issue on Wizards' radar is in all likelihood willfully deceiving themselves, likely because they aren't looking at historical precedents, or they personally don't want the card banned. Another GP like ATL would push this to a red flag issue in my books.


    Not only is stirrings pretty ubiquitous the decks that it sees play in are also some of the best performing decks in the format (arguably underplayed). It is frustrating to me as someone who primarily plays blue based decks to have preordain on the ban list while a card like stirrings roams free. How they think one is fine and the other isn't is....baffling. Internal consistency is an important concept and gives the player base (and the B&R committee) a logical foundation for their decision making (otherwise it's mostly ad hoc), so either stirrings should be banned, or preordain should be unbanned. Pick one WoTC.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on [POLL] What cards do you want banned or unbanned in the November 26, 2018 announcement?
    Using XYZ is played in a perceived/actual higher power format as a barometer of its power level in a different format is not a compelling or indicative argument approaching the truth. Slash Panther used to be a card that saw a decent amount of play in Vintage. Dark Petition sees play in Legacy as does duress MB. Unmask is a MB card, but wouldn't sniff the light of day in Modern. Diabolic Edict sees a fair amount of play in Legacy as well, but is pretty garbage in Modern (Devour Flesh is close enough comparison). I can give a lot more examples if you want. The dynamics of each format are determined by their card pool - blatantly disregarding this and simplifying your assumptive argument (Legacy > Modern power level therefore cards see play in Legacy would be better in Modern is fallacious) is exactly how not to arrive at something close to the "truth".
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 01/10/2018)
    Quote from genini2 »
    Quote from idSurge »
    I'm not convinced there is an answer for a Dredge, KCI, Tron meta.

    Is Spirits it? Maybe? Infect?

    Those 3 decks though are a real issue to me, in how polarizing they can be to play against.

    All of them simply say 'go under'.


    Infect or Burn would give you 50% or better against all of those.


    Burn is poop against Dredge, plus you're not really painting a rosy picture of the format if the answer to the all ready far over-representation of ships passing by each other in the night is another ship passing deck.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 01/10/2018)
    Even with the extreme amount of hate dredge was still able to place 3 in the top 32. Dredge just does awful things to the format. As for ancient stirrings, I still say if Preordain is banned, having Stirrings roaming around is a farce.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
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