If you're playing against Infect (I assume Hierarch is a fine bird substitute), 100% IoK. It's probable they have a 2 mana infect creature, or they wanted to play Glistener with protection. It's also advisable to save your removal for the infect creatures anyways. Also, I'm pretty sure this isn't the scenario/deck your post was aimed at. Thought I'd chime in anyways.
To have a spell strategy, there has to be a way to recur spells efficiently. Flashback, buyback, and card draw are three big things that help spell based decks keep going and compete against creature strategies. We have Snapcaster Mage, but there needs to be more like him and spell duplication is not a good solution.
Well people already consider Snapcaster "broken" despite no T1 Snapcaster decks for 2.5 years... As much as I think it would be awesome, it has this totally unfounded fear. I'd love better ways or modal cards to recast spells or return to hand like K Command does for creatures.
Right, me too. Unfortunately, all of the cards that return I/S are insanely overcosted. Just compare Mystic Retrieval / Call to Mind to Raise Dead and all of its variants. Yeah, at one time I/S were more powerful than creatures, but that table has been turned on its head for a long time now. Probably since the OG Ravnica if not longer. So while, yeah, you might get those effects, it'll cost you an arm and a leg. As icing on this fact cake, look at snapcaster mage. It's actually cheaper for you to get a 2/1 flash creature stapled onto this effect than casting an I/S that returns an I/S. How stupid is that?
Modern is a creature format primarily. Modern counters suck, and they line up poorly against a lot of decks. The removal is actually pretty good in Modern. For this reason I actually think RW is a better control deck/color pairing than UWx or Ux control decks. With recent cards like Karn, Scion of Urza, Nahiri, Gideon of the Trials, and Dire Fleet Daredevil, red actually has pretty decent CA and draw power. I know I have zero evidence to back up what I'm saying, but this has been my intuition as a primarily Ux control player for a long time in modern. As such, I've brewed up a RW Historic Control(ly) deck that I'm excited to play soon (once I get all the cards in). It also helps White/Red have some very strong "prison" type cards that shore up non-creature MU's which tend to be better than counters as well (e.g. Runed Halo, Leyline of Sanctity, Rest in Peace, and if you go real deep - Nevermore).
By the time Twin was banned, it was much more of a control deck than a combo deck. Look at the early modern Twin lists, then look at the lists before it was banned. Most Twin players had shaved Twin to 3 copies. It wasn't combo'ing T4 all that often, and that was often it's plan B to keep the degenerate decks in check (Tron, Bloom, etc.). The format is much worse off as a whole without it. (And honestly, I can't believe people complain about a T4 combo, when Modern has devolved into mostly a T3 format now....I mean really..lmao)
That list looks pretty good. I've been driving myself crazy the last couple days trying to find a 5th removal spell for UW, but in all honesty I think I'd like to play around 7 so this list looks pretty appealing to me right now. Creatures are running rampant right now, control decks should be kicking ass but we just aren't seeing it.
I have to agree with your sentiments on Glimmer - you should give a 1-of value Gifts Ungiven a shot in that slot. It's basically fact or fiction, except you get to pick 4 cards instead of a random 5. It's been surprisingly good for me in UW, but looks even better in UB. You could gifts for Cryptic, Gearhulk, Snap, Liliana, that's a 4 for 1! The only concession I might make to gifts would be adding an extra walker or two to make sure you have enough high impact cards to grab left on your deck if you don't draw until you have like 30 cards left in the deck. If you need answers instead of threats grab Snap, downfall, VoN, damnation. I think gifts is underplayed as a value card.
I'm on my mobile at the moment, but when I get to a computer I'll upload what I might try pushing through a league online.
Gifts does seem really good at first glance, but my reservation is that a good opponent will always dump Snap and Gearhulk (assuming, I haven't drawn him) and with only Lili to rebuy I think it makes my draws a lot less live. Maybe I'm overstating though. If I had access to K.Command Gifts would be a lot better. I should probably try it out sometime and see how it goes.
As for your list I know you're playing Mana Leak to play more basics, but honestly, the color-fixing is very good and rarely comes up that I can't cast either VoN or Logic Knot. The upside on LK is just a lot higher than Leak, so it definitely seems worth it to me. Let me know how the PW package works out for you in your league. I'm skeptical of playing 2 6 drops and a 5 drop that relies on having a 6 drop in the yard to be really good. I tend to build my control decks on consistency rather than synergy, so maybe my POV is just coming from a different angle. Anywho, keep me appraised.
Also, if you're going to splash red for anything it should probably be 1-2 K. Commands since it does everything the deck wants and fills a niche UB is very poor in (artifact interaction).
PS: As for the fetches - I love my Onslaught JP fetches so that's why I chose Strand and Mire (I wanted another U and B, so regardless it's going to be that combination). I think making them Grixis colors to try and get the opponent will come up about...0.002% of the time. It can't hurt to do though if you have no attachment to why I play the fetches I do
Ok, so I played tonight in our Modern Monday (with a friend who is getting into the game that I've been teaching) and beat Elves 2-0, drew with UWR Control, and lost 1-2 to Burn. Overall, the deck performed well. I probably want 1 more anti-aggro/burn card in the SB, but not sure what it should/could be. Probably right to just play 4 Collective Brutality in the SB right now. That card is so damn flexible. Also, I didn't play my best as I was teaching my friend while playing (our modern events are casual competitive, in that we're all friends (10-15 of us), but we all play T1-T2 decks for the most part), so take that with a grain of salt.
The UWR match was hilarious. I win a 35-36 min G1, and at one point later in the game we had 6 spells on the stack(I ended up winning (the stack) and then lethaling with Tar Pit and Gearhulk). That doesn't happen too much in Modern and that game was a blast - lots of back and forth. Our rounds are 40 min, so we shuffle up and get ready for G2 real fast. He ends up drawing the perfects and killing me from 14 life on T4/T5 of turns (I spell snare his Helix, attempt to cryptic counter bolt & bounce his colonnade, he plays his last card - D. Stroke...). He is empty handed, I'm @ 6 life, he has enough mana to activate Colonnade swing and be able to draw Electrolyze to win. He's played 2 Electrolyze, 2 Helix and 2 Bolts. He untaps, draws, attacks with colonnade, and Electrolyzes me. The beats are so bad lmao (though to be fair I think I played that turn badly with the cryptic, so kudos). I think I win this MU much more often than not, and 40 min rounds are tough for a deck like this to begin with. It's also worse when I T2 seize him and he has like 4 lands and an opt (I take a queller; he only had 2 spells), and he proceeds to rips the perfects for like 6 straight turns lol. Sometimes it happens.
The Supreme Will was surprisingly good in all 3 MU's (I decided to take this from Bennyhillz). It's probably better in UB than UW because we don't play Path and our Tec Edges are better and we play Gearhulk / more Snapcasters. I dig it. Only cast Search once and it was countered (was afraid my opponent was on UWR Geist, so I didn't counter back, but he ended up being Control :>). I'm not sure how important GY hate is right now, so I could see replacing the Spellbomb in the SB with the 4th Brutality. Or maybe Hostage Taker is too cute and just replace that with it. SB is fluid so we'll see.
Basically, I want my MB solid against creature and mid-range MU's, and my SB focused against combo, burn, and the colorless decks (with a few blow-out cards against go-wide decks like NoSB/Kalitas). I think Disfigure right now is actually really good and was happy with it as a 1 of.
I think the deck just needs a better/additional 2 mana counter (I'd kill to play 4 Counterspell and 2 Logic Knots in my 2 slot) and something better than Glimmer that plays well with Snapcaster and Counterspells (C'mon WoTC, just reprint Fact or Fiction all ready).
Last thing - I'm not entirely sure on the Clique, but it was a hedge since it's not really bad in general except against Electrolyze really. It wasn't the worst tonight, but I could see it being something else.
PS: I actually think cutting the Clique for the 25th land might be right. The deck is really mana-intensive. By the way, if you play a list like this in a comp-REL event, writing the decklist is a total PITA. 33 unique cards out of 60 MB.
It wasn't long ago (prior to Cinci) where I was talking about Cavern being a problem card. Control has to play counters to have a chance against combo decks, and having a nearly free land that invalidates a whole archetype/avenue of interaction is just mindnumbingly dumb. I was told I was wrong. That Cavern is fine, and just paraphrasing "sit down and shut up". If Death Shadow didn't exist, oh my god, this format would be a trash-bin of awfulness (even more than it all ready is). In small local FNM's and such, Modern is ok, because people play what they enjoy, but playing in larger more competitive tournaments, the format is in real trouble. There is deck diversity (which modern has a lot of) and then there is archetype diversity (which modern is extremely shallow in). To have a healthy format you need each leg of the stool to be strong. The stool has been tipped over for a while now, and this needs to change imho. At the very least some combination of Jace, BBE, SFM, DTT, GSZ, Twin, etc. should come off. WoTC also needs to ban Cavern of Souls and print a good 2 mana counter for modern. Do that, and archetype diversity will be much better.
I must be the weird one because when I sit across from my opponent I want to play a game with/against them, not play solitaire with my deck and minimally recognize my opponent by playing a lock piece/hate card. /shrug
The problem with Modern is that the decision-trees are pretty small for a lot of decks which means the skill ceiling is lower and it isn't as interesting to watch as say Legacy or even Standard right now. Watching Jund vs Twin or UWR vs Pod was a lot more entertaining and generally the better player tended to win. That's not really the case in today's modern. Also, there are too many MU's that are disproportionate which also makes for less fun and less entertaining to watch. When a lot of MU's in the format tend to be 70/30 variety, it really diminishes the format. A lot of that has to do with an imbalanced meta where important archetypes like Control are pretty non-existent (as evidenced by meta share, and SB space that other decks in the format use for control which is extremely minimal). It's just not interesting. The Modern PT is going to suck so bad. Keep on parroting "diversity" uber alles though instead of quality of matches and significance of skill in-game.
The format would be a lot better if we had Counterspell and Fact or Fiction. The former we're never going to get because "standard" and "unfun", and the latter I don't see as well because of all the "fixed" versions of the card they've tried over the years. They just seem reluctant to ever bring it back, and it's probably a no-go so long as Gearhulk is in the format. It's a sad day when Glimmer of Genius is one of the better draw spells in the format. Having an actual good control deck would do a lot to decrease the amount of shenanigans. Daze would be interesting, but I think GDS beats up on the unfair decks enough as is. Also, **** Cavern of Souls - that card should not exist.
LOL to anyone who thought WoTC would unban anything.
Well now...your post reminds me of one of the ETron players I encounter at my LGS, except his stance is the complete opposite of yours. However, you both present your arguments in a rather hostile format which makes it difficult to take seriously. So let's go over your points, because I'm trying to understand where you're coming from.
1) Counterspell and FoF in modern seems like overkill. I love blue as a color, but there is no way in hell we'd get both of those cards. The power level of standard would have to be through the roof to allow either one of those in, let alone both. Some players, myself included, love to play draw-go magic, but that's not what standard has been about for a long time.
2) Glimmer of Genius is good in standard, but to call that a good draw spell in modern is laughable.
3) Not certain how you define a good control deck. What's your ideal version, and how would that reduce shenanigans in Modern?
4) Cavern of Souls is pretty much a pillar in any tribal deck, and no tribe save Eldrazi is remotely close to needing the axe that badly. Why does that card grind your gears?
5) No unbans yet, but the fact that they said publicly they're discussing unbans for February is good news. We'll have to see how the Pro Tour goes.
1) I'm not saying we have to get them at the same time, but one or the other would be nice - preferably Counterspell because that is the weakest part of the deck which does need to be addressed. I mean, it doesn't even have to be Counterspell, but something close (1U - Counter target spell with CMC 4 or less) would be acceptable. Also, if we can't get good strong control cards through standard, then what's the point? If counterspells and card draw - two very important parts of a control deck - are off limits for modern power-level, then I guess the game has left me by. I came for the chess-like gameplay, and if WoTC rams down linear dog*****, I'm just going to go elsewhere (I heard GWENT was pretty good in that department).
2) Of course it's laughable - that's the power-level of card draw in Modern outside of Esper Charm. It's garbage.
3) A good control deck can police the degenerate decks. It's been that way traditionally. Apparently, now-a-days, all WoTC knows how to do is print a decent removal spell every 2-3 years. Which means the only good control cards tend to be them and not counters, hence, Modern control decks being much better against aggro decks than the degenerate decks - a fact mind you, that only holds true in Modern. In every other format including Standard, Control is weak to aggro, but strong against degenerate decks. This needs to change imho. Control should be weak to aggro, as it's meant to police the format, and keep things on the straight and narrow.
4) Because a card that has such low opportunity cost as that should not invalidate an entire spectra of interaction. Would you be *****ing and moaning if there was a 5 color tribal land that gave creatures hexproof? It also contributes to the lack of control decks doing well in large tournaments. Over 15-rounds you're bound to lose at least 1 round to Cavern (perhaps more). It was a stupid card specifically made to deal with Delver decks - it's a pox on format health imho.
The format would be a lot better if we had Counterspell and Fact or Fiction. The former we're never going to get because "standard" and "unfun", and the latter I don't see as well because of all the "fixed" versions of the card they've tried over the years. They just seem reluctant to ever bring it back, and it's probably a no-go so long as Gearhulk is in the format. It's a sad day when Glimmer of Genius is one of the better draw spells in the format. Having an actual good control deck would do a lot to decrease the amount of shenanigans. Daze would be interesting, but I think GDS beats up on the unfair decks enough as is. Also, **** Cavern of Souls - that card should not exist.
LOL to anyone who thought WoTC would unban anything.
Honestly, I didn't play Pod, so my opinion is kind of worthless. People say it was busted, I believe them. But yeah it doesn't look like it's too powerful for Modern or anything.
Pod is simply too good. Since it was banned, some damn good Pod cards have been printed as well (e.g. Rallier) that would make it even worse. Granted, we have Kcommand now, but more often than not it'll beat the Kcommand decks just through out-attritioning them.
People remember Delver-TC being the best deck during its time, but Pod was actually the best deck at something like 22-25% during that time. Plus if you go back and look at Day 2 rates, conversion %, etc. Pod was absurd.
I might end up changing Negate for Countersquall as the 2 life may matter against Combo/Tron decks, and UB isn't too difficult mana-wise. I also may end up cutting 1 Opt for another removal spell or something like TT. Another removal spell may be better in conjunction with Azcanta and PW'ers...not sure. Warrants more testing. If more combo shows up I may want Clique in the SB or the 1 Surgical I took out for Kalitas.
I'm still torn on what I want to cut for the Dismember - there are more PW'ers showing up in Modern and it's nice to have the option of Downfall with Snap/Gearhulk. It may just be that I need to cut one VoN for the Dismember as a hedge for Angler. My mana is relatively painless so I can afford the 2 life loss from Dismember pretty easy. We'll see how it goes.
I've never really had a problem beating Storm. As long as you don't let Gifts resolve and you have cards like Spellbomb in your 75 to nullify PIF, it's hard to lose, especially if you know to play the MU a bit like you do vs. Tron flashing in Snap on T2. Then again, I play an abnormally high amount of interaction against combo decks (~10 counters in the 75, thoughtseizes, collective brutalities, spellbombs, etc.). Plus, Night of Souls' Betrayal blanks their Empty plan and you can usually stick it with good information from all the discard. If you go Thoughtseize, kill their guy, Esper Charm them, snap-seize, that's a hard game for you to lose especially if you have Dispel back up for a top-decked Gifts. Then again, a lot of lists don't play 4x Snapcaster, which also makes the MU harder. So, really, it comes down to how you've built your 75. Not playing Collective Brutality anywhere in the 75 is just insane to me, but I see so many lists that don't then you see posts about not beating burn, or storm, or having trouble in CoCo matches, etc. /shrug
Well, you say it's marginally better than Ingenuity, but agree that the leap from 4 to 5 mana is pretty significant. There are a decent number of 4 cost spells that see play in Modern, but far fewer 5CMC cards see play (plus it plays well with Cryptic in the sense that you put your opponent in a bad spot holding up 4 mana). Also, I'm only warping it by playing 3-4 copies of a card that at worst cycles for U or B (the Spellbomb is in the main because I needed a SB slot for Hostage Taker), so it has a far lower opportunity cost than the cards you're including to build around Azcanta.
As for Spreading Seas...yes I know what it does - I'm talking about the cost. Targeting OP LD costs you the card (98% of the time the land is going to be untapped and will tag a land of yours), and it is much much worse if it is Tec Edge you have to target. That's 1-2 cards you're down, which costs you 8 mana to recoup and 2 turns. That's just not a winning play. If you want to play SS for other reasons, then, that can be argued, but the use of it to pre-emptively make opp. use their LD is -CA. I also agree that you wouldn't play Architects without a pay off (see: LE or Scour the Lab), but I'm not just throwing Will into a random deck so I'm not sure how that argument holds. You're not going to play Thought Scour in non-GY centric decks, but that doesn't make Thought Scour a bad card. It makes it niche. I have enjoyed the card as being very flexible and important in the deck. We'll probably agree to disagree on this forever, until you play the deck (for better or worse).
I also do not like Mana Leak at all even in non-path decks. We're aiming to prolong the game. I'm willing to take the minor hit on Azcanta to have 3 very good counters that are relevant early and late. Plus you don't always have to delve with Logic Knot, and many times early it's essentially censor. It doesn't really strain your GY a lot til later in the game.
I'm hoping that Ob Nix will work out. I think I can afford 1 5 mana play and he seems to be quite flexible, and the deck is already pretty good against Combo decks so I think I can afford this to boost my other MU's. Gifts is interesting, and could be quite good. Next time I play I'll make a note if one or the other instant speed 4 mana CA spells would have been better. I tried Thopter/Sword when it was unbanned. It's not good. I don't see that changing here. It's possible Trinket Mage is good, but then the only targets are EE or Spellbomb. It's just too low impact imho. The space in the SB is pretty taxed as is.
As for the list...it only has 4 removal spells (well 5 if you count the edict from LoTV). I don't see how this can be successful in Modern. I think if I were you, I'd stick to one list and play some games and tweak from there instead of relying on thought experiments. I know you're in a lot of other threads and playing many other control decks so maybe time is limited for you, but I think that's where I'd start if you wanted to improve the list. Lmk how it goes.
For me at least, the appeal of Azcanta is that control decks no longer need cards like Ancestral Vision and Sphinx's Rev, both of which are unplayable (competitively) in modern in my estimation. I think UW control has been doing well despite running 1-of Rev, not because of it, and Ancestral Vision has no competitive home.
The more I think about Scour the Lab, the more I think the juice isn't worth the squeeze. We are working way too hard to get a 1 mana discount on Jace's Ingenuity. There's just no way I'm ever sleeving up Architects of Will.
On the other hand, after reading Sam Blacks article on what he calls his "Search for Azcanta deck featuring UB control cards" (paraphrasing), i'm starting to think that I have been undervaluing the ramp aspect of Azcanta. Sam basically said they switched out Glimmer of Genius for Heiroglyphic Illumination simply so they would have more cyclers to flip Azcanta earlier. We can do something similar in modern by including Thought Scour, which plays well with UB control strategies generally in any case. My only concern is that by moving off of Scour the Lab, Spreading Seas becomes less potent because it isn't pulling double duty as both Delirium and Azcanta protection. Without Seas, Azcanta becomes more vulnerable and we are in the same predicament again where we need a certain critical number of win conditions, and card advantage sources. UW control can get away with only relying on Colonnade and Snap because they also have access to planeswalkers that can attack. We might have to rely on Torrential Gearhulks and Tasigurs, which puts us on all of our win conditions and card advantage as relying on the graveyard, which is not a great place to be, and I'm not too sure that is something that we can overcome since we don't have access to Enchantment/Artifact hate in UB. We may have to splash into Sultai for Abrupt Decay. What do you think?
I think you're under-estimating 1 mana, especially the difference between 5 and 4 is much greater than 1 to 2 or 3 to 4, etc. If Jace's Ingenuity cost 4 mana it would be seeing a lot of play.
As for Will - I mean, you even mention Sam running a bunch of cyclers to turbo-ramp out Azcanta. Then you say you'd never play Architects because it's terrible, yet it does exactly what the deck wants imho. You can't rely solely on Azcanta as your CA-suite; it is slow, vulnerable to LD/GY hate and vulnerable to Abrupt Decay/Pulse, etc. It's a tool to be used in addition to your other sources of CA - a way to fight on another axis. The reason Thought Scour is played is because it fuels delve cards, which are nearly a non-bo (outside of Logic Knot because of its flexibility and necessity) with early Azcanta flips. Also, how is Seas protecting Azcanta? You're throwing away a card and a land (if in the case of Tec edge) to protect it, but you need to sink a couple turns into the card just to get to card parity at that point. Imho, Azcanta isn't meant to be the aim of the deck - it's meant as an important adjunct to what the deck all ready wants to do. I think you're focusing a little too much on having your 75 built around Azcanta instead of building a 75 that works well together.
I agree being so GY-centric is a hindrance not a benefit G2/G3, but we don't have FoF/etc. available to us. As for Enchantment hate, you can play EE and Hostage Taker also hits artifacts. Blacks suite of planeswalkers can also win the game (Lili, LH / Ob Nix ults), but also do things the deck all ready wants, where Gideon's are more one-dimensional, so it isn't like there aren't pro's and cons to each. By the way, once again you under-estimate the flexibility of Architects being an enabler/card draw, disruption, and win-con depending on the state of the game. It's not uncommon later in the game to lock my opp. for 2 turns and win with the 3/3. I think you should give it a try before totally dismissing its merits, but that's up to you in the end.
If you don't want to be so GY-centric I could see going -1 Scour, -1 Architects, +1 Opt, +1 Glimmer of Genius to hedge a bit. It's probably not the worst idea in the world.
Any reason you prefer Scour (which requires setup and running some bad filler cards) over Ancestral Vision ?
Sure it is slow (Scour isn't fast either) and isn't an instant but it is much cheaper to play.
Scour is more consistent than AV, and works much better in conjunction with Snapcaster and Gearhulk. Incidentally, the Architects perform quite a few duties in the deck - cycling for 1 mana is always low cost; it helps fill GY for Knot if needed, for Azcanta, and later in the game, acts as disruption+win-con or pseudo-selection with yourself (ala something like Halimar Depths) if you need to find something. On the surface, it looks bad, but it is one of the better cards imho.
As for the removal - GftT is quite good, but if you look at the top 50 creatures that are played Victim only misses Gurmag Angler and Tidehollow Sculler. It's pretty much Terminate, though missing Angler can be somewhat of a problem against DS. That's a little less of a problem with less DS around, but it's still something to consider. The deck probably wants a Dismember as well. As for Murderous Cut, you simply can't play it - you're all ready playing 3 Logic Knots, Azcanta that wants your GY filled, Scour that wants delirium, and 3 Snaps + 1 Gearhulk.
For the 3 mana counter, I think the selection of Dissolve is better than the niche scenarios for Disallow (I tend to value consistency a bit more than most), but I ended up cutting it since I wanted a 4th "CA" spell. I ended up going -1 Dissolve +1 TT, but next week I'm going to try -1 TT +1 Ob Nix. It's been working for Ozguney on MTGO, so I'll see it how it goes.
Right, me too. Unfortunately, all of the cards that return I/S are insanely overcosted. Just compare Mystic Retrieval / Call to Mind to Raise Dead and all of its variants. Yeah, at one time I/S were more powerful than creatures, but that table has been turned on its head for a long time now. Probably since the OG Ravnica if not longer. So while, yeah, you might get those effects, it'll cost you an arm and a leg. As icing on this fact cake, look at snapcaster mage. It's actually cheaper for you to get a 2/1 flash creature stapled onto this effect than casting an I/S that returns an I/S. How stupid is that?
Modern is a creature format primarily. Modern counters suck, and they line up poorly against a lot of decks. The removal is actually pretty good in Modern. For this reason I actually think RW is a better control deck/color pairing than UWx or Ux control decks. With recent cards like Karn, Scion of Urza, Nahiri, Gideon of the Trials, and Dire Fleet Daredevil, red actually has pretty decent CA and draw power. I know I have zero evidence to back up what I'm saying, but this has been my intuition as a primarily Ux control player for a long time in modern. As such, I've brewed up a RW Historic Control(ly) deck that I'm excited to play soon (once I get all the cards in). It also helps White/Red have some very strong "prison" type cards that shore up non-creature MU's which tend to be better than counters as well (e.g. Runed Halo, Leyline of Sanctity, Rest in Peace, and if you go real deep - Nevermore).
I know this isn't the thread for it, but if you're interested here is the list: https://deckstats.net/decks/302/981340-historic-rw-midrange-control?saved=1&lng=en
If you have questions/suggestions/comments can send me via PM, or you can ignore. Up to you.
Gifts does seem really good at first glance, but my reservation is that a good opponent will always dump Snap and Gearhulk (assuming, I haven't drawn him) and with only Lili to rebuy I think it makes my draws a lot less live. Maybe I'm overstating though. If I had access to K.Command Gifts would be a lot better. I should probably try it out sometime and see how it goes.
As for your list I know you're playing Mana Leak to play more basics, but honestly, the color-fixing is very good and rarely comes up that I can't cast either VoN or Logic Knot. The upside on LK is just a lot higher than Leak, so it definitely seems worth it to me. Let me know how the PW package works out for you in your league. I'm skeptical of playing 2 6 drops and a 5 drop that relies on having a 6 drop in the yard to be really good. I tend to build my control decks on consistency rather than synergy, so maybe my POV is just coming from a different angle. Anywho, keep me appraised.
Also, if you're going to splash red for anything it should probably be 1-2 K. Commands since it does everything the deck wants and fills a niche UB is very poor in (artifact interaction).
PS: As for the fetches - I love my Onslaught JP fetches so that's why I chose Strand and Mire (I wanted another U and B, so regardless it's going to be that combination). I think making them Grixis colors to try and get the opponent will come up about...0.002% of the time. It can't hurt to do though if you have no attachment to why I play the fetches I do
The UWR match was hilarious. I win a 35-36 min G1, and at one point later in the game we had 6 spells on the stack(I ended up winning (the stack) and then lethaling with Tar Pit and Gearhulk). That doesn't happen too much in Modern and that game was a blast - lots of back and forth. Our rounds are 40 min, so we shuffle up and get ready for G2 real fast. He ends up drawing the perfects and killing me from 14 life on T4/T5 of turns (I spell snare his Helix, attempt to cryptic counter bolt & bounce his colonnade, he plays his last card - D. Stroke...). He is empty handed, I'm @ 6 life, he has enough mana to activate Colonnade swing and be able to draw Electrolyze to win. He's played 2 Electrolyze, 2 Helix and 2 Bolts. He untaps, draws, attacks with colonnade, and Electrolyzes me. The beats are so bad lmao (though to be fair I think I played that turn badly with the cryptic, so kudos). I think I win this MU much more often than not, and 40 min rounds are tough for a deck like this to begin with. It's also worse when I T2 seize him and he has like 4 lands and an opt (I take a queller; he only had 2 spells), and he proceeds to rips the perfects for like 6 straight turns lol. Sometimes it happens.
Anyways, the decklist:
3 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Darkslick Shores
1 River of Tears
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Watery Grave
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Island
2 Swamp
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Field of Ruin
Counters:
1 Spell Snare
3 Logic Knot
1 Countersquall
1 Supreme Will
3 Cryptic Command
1 Disfigure
4 Fatal Push
2 Victim of Night
1 Go for the Throat
1 Hero's Downfall
2 Damnation
Planeswalker:
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Creatures:
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Torrential Gearhulk
Only Value:
1 Search for Azcanta
1 Think Twice
2 Glimmer of Genius
Selection/Cantrip:
4 Opt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Thoughtseize
3 Collective Brutality
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Flashfreeze
2 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Dispel
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Hostage Taker
The Supreme Will was surprisingly good in all 3 MU's (I decided to take this from Bennyhillz). It's probably better in UB than UW because we don't play Path and our Tec Edges are better and we play Gearhulk / more Snapcasters. I dig it. Only cast Search once and it was countered (was afraid my opponent was on UWR Geist, so I didn't counter back, but he ended up being Control :>). I'm not sure how important GY hate is right now, so I could see replacing the Spellbomb in the SB with the 4th Brutality. Or maybe Hostage Taker is too cute and just replace that with it. SB is fluid so we'll see.
Basically, I want my MB solid against creature and mid-range MU's, and my SB focused against combo, burn, and the colorless decks (with a few blow-out cards against go-wide decks like NoSB/Kalitas). I think Disfigure right now is actually really good and was happy with it as a 1 of.
I think the deck just needs a better/additional 2 mana counter (I'd kill to play 4 Counterspell and 2 Logic Knots in my 2 slot) and something better than Glimmer that plays well with Snapcaster and Counterspells (C'mon WoTC, just reprint Fact or Fiction all ready).
Last thing - I'm not entirely sure on the Clique, but it was a hedge since it's not really bad in general except against Electrolyze really. It wasn't the worst tonight, but I could see it being something else.
PS: I actually think cutting the Clique for the 25th land might be right. The deck is really mana-intensive. By the way, if you play a list like this in a comp-REL event, writing the decklist is a total PITA. 33 unique cards out of 60 MB.
I must be the weird one because when I sit across from my opponent I want to play a game with/against them, not play solitaire with my deck and minimally recognize my opponent by playing a lock piece/hate card. /shrug
1) I'm not saying we have to get them at the same time, but one or the other would be nice - preferably Counterspell because that is the weakest part of the deck which does need to be addressed. I mean, it doesn't even have to be Counterspell, but something close (1U - Counter target spell with CMC 4 or less) would be acceptable. Also, if we can't get good strong control cards through standard, then what's the point? If counterspells and card draw - two very important parts of a control deck - are off limits for modern power-level, then I guess the game has left me by. I came for the chess-like gameplay, and if WoTC rams down linear dog*****, I'm just going to go elsewhere (I heard GWENT was pretty good in that department).
2) Of course it's laughable - that's the power-level of card draw in Modern outside of Esper Charm. It's garbage.
3) A good control deck can police the degenerate decks. It's been that way traditionally. Apparently, now-a-days, all WoTC knows how to do is print a decent removal spell every 2-3 years. Which means the only good control cards tend to be them and not counters, hence, Modern control decks being much better against aggro decks than the degenerate decks - a fact mind you, that only holds true in Modern. In every other format including Standard, Control is weak to aggro, but strong against degenerate decks. This needs to change imho. Control should be weak to aggro, as it's meant to police the format, and keep things on the straight and narrow.
4) Because a card that has such low opportunity cost as that should not invalidate an entire spectra of interaction. Would you be *****ing and moaning if there was a 5 color tribal land that gave creatures hexproof? It also contributes to the lack of control decks doing well in large tournaments. Over 15-rounds you're bound to lose at least 1 round to Cavern (perhaps more). It was a stupid card specifically made to deal with Delver decks - it's a pox on format health imho.
LOL to anyone who thought WoTC would unban anything.
Pod is simply too good. Since it was banned, some damn good Pod cards have been printed as well (e.g. Rallier) that would make it even worse. Granted, we have Kcommand now, but more often than not it'll beat the Kcommand decks just through out-attritioning them.
People remember Delver-TC being the best deck during its time, but Pod was actually the best deck at something like 22-25% during that time. Plus if you go back and look at Day 2 rates, conversion %, etc. Pod was absurd.
4 Darkslick Shores
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Watery Grave
1 Drowned Catacomb
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 River of Tears
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Field of Ruin
3 Island
2 Swamp
Removal:
4 Fatal Push
2 Victim of Night
1 Go for the Throat
1 Hero's Downfall/Dismember
2 Damnation
1 Negate
3 Logic Knot
3 Cryptic Command
PW:
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
Card Draw:
1 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Opt
1 Glimmer of Genius
2 Scour the Laboratory
3 Architects of Will
Engine:
2 Search for Azcanta
Value:
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Torrential Gearhulk
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Hostage Taker
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
3 Collective Brutality
2 Thoughtseize
2 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Flashfreeze
1 Dispel
I might end up changing Negate for Countersquall as the 2 life may matter against Combo/Tron decks, and UB isn't too difficult mana-wise. I also may end up cutting 1 Opt for another removal spell or something like TT. Another removal spell may be better in conjunction with Azcanta and PW'ers...not sure. Warrants more testing. If more combo shows up I may want Clique in the SB or the 1 Surgical I took out for Kalitas.
I'm still torn on what I want to cut for the Dismember - there are more PW'ers showing up in Modern and it's nice to have the option of Downfall with Snap/Gearhulk. It may just be that I need to cut one VoN for the Dismember as a hedge for Angler. My mana is relatively painless so I can afford the 2 life loss from Dismember pretty easy. We'll see how it goes.
As for Spreading Seas...yes I know what it does - I'm talking about the cost. Targeting OP LD costs you the card (98% of the time the land is going to be untapped and will tag a land of yours), and it is much much worse if it is Tec Edge you have to target. That's 1-2 cards you're down, which costs you 8 mana to recoup and 2 turns. That's just not a winning play. If you want to play SS for other reasons, then, that can be argued, but the use of it to pre-emptively make opp. use their LD is -CA. I also agree that you wouldn't play Architects without a pay off (see: LE or Scour the Lab), but I'm not just throwing Will into a random deck so I'm not sure how that argument holds. You're not going to play Thought Scour in non-GY centric decks, but that doesn't make Thought Scour a bad card. It makes it niche. I have enjoyed the card as being very flexible and important in the deck. We'll probably agree to disagree on this forever, until you play the deck (for better or worse).
I also do not like Mana Leak at all even in non-path decks. We're aiming to prolong the game. I'm willing to take the minor hit on Azcanta to have 3 very good counters that are relevant early and late. Plus you don't always have to delve with Logic Knot, and many times early it's essentially censor. It doesn't really strain your GY a lot til later in the game.
I'm hoping that Ob Nix will work out. I think I can afford 1 5 mana play and he seems to be quite flexible, and the deck is already pretty good against Combo decks so I think I can afford this to boost my other MU's. Gifts is interesting, and could be quite good. Next time I play I'll make a note if one or the other instant speed 4 mana CA spells would have been better. I tried Thopter/Sword when it was unbanned. It's not good. I don't see that changing here. It's possible Trinket Mage is good, but then the only targets are EE or Spellbomb. It's just too low impact imho. The space in the SB is pretty taxed as is.
As for the list...it only has 4 removal spells (well 5 if you count the edict from LoTV). I don't see how this can be successful in Modern. I think if I were you, I'd stick to one list and play some games and tweak from there instead of relying on thought experiments. I know you're in a lot of other threads and playing many other control decks so maybe time is limited for you, but I think that's where I'd start if you wanted to improve the list. Lmk how it goes.
I think you're under-estimating 1 mana, especially the difference between 5 and 4 is much greater than 1 to 2 or 3 to 4, etc. If Jace's Ingenuity cost 4 mana it would be seeing a lot of play.
As for Will - I mean, you even mention Sam running a bunch of cyclers to turbo-ramp out Azcanta. Then you say you'd never play Architects because it's terrible, yet it does exactly what the deck wants imho. You can't rely solely on Azcanta as your CA-suite; it is slow, vulnerable to LD/GY hate and vulnerable to Abrupt Decay/Pulse, etc. It's a tool to be used in addition to your other sources of CA - a way to fight on another axis. The reason Thought Scour is played is because it fuels delve cards, which are nearly a non-bo (outside of Logic Knot because of its flexibility and necessity) with early Azcanta flips. Also, how is Seas protecting Azcanta? You're throwing away a card and a land (if in the case of Tec edge) to protect it, but you need to sink a couple turns into the card just to get to card parity at that point. Imho, Azcanta isn't meant to be the aim of the deck - it's meant as an important adjunct to what the deck all ready wants to do. I think you're focusing a little too much on having your 75 built around Azcanta instead of building a 75 that works well together.
I agree being so GY-centric is a hindrance not a benefit G2/G3, but we don't have FoF/etc. available to us. As for Enchantment hate, you can play EE and Hostage Taker also hits artifacts. Blacks suite of planeswalkers can also win the game (Lili, LH / Ob Nix ults), but also do things the deck all ready wants, where Gideon's are more one-dimensional, so it isn't like there aren't pro's and cons to each. By the way, once again you under-estimate the flexibility of Architects being an enabler/card draw, disruption, and win-con depending on the state of the game. It's not uncommon later in the game to lock my opp. for 2 turns and win with the 3/3. I think you should give it a try before totally dismissing its merits, but that's up to you in the end.
If you don't want to be so GY-centric I could see going -1 Scour, -1 Architects, +1 Opt, +1 Glimmer of Genius to hedge a bit. It's probably not the worst idea in the world.
Scour is more consistent than AV, and works much better in conjunction with Snapcaster and Gearhulk. Incidentally, the Architects perform quite a few duties in the deck - cycling for 1 mana is always low cost; it helps fill GY for Knot if needed, for Azcanta, and later in the game, acts as disruption+win-con or pseudo-selection with yourself (ala something like Halimar Depths) if you need to find something. On the surface, it looks bad, but it is one of the better cards imho.
As for the removal - GftT is quite good, but if you look at the top 50 creatures that are played Victim only misses Gurmag Angler and Tidehollow Sculler. It's pretty much Terminate, though missing Angler can be somewhat of a problem against DS. That's a little less of a problem with less DS around, but it's still something to consider. The deck probably wants a Dismember as well. As for Murderous Cut, you simply can't play it - you're all ready playing 3 Logic Knots, Azcanta that wants your GY filled, Scour that wants delirium, and 3 Snaps + 1 Gearhulk.
For the 3 mana counter, I think the selection of Dissolve is better than the niche scenarios for Disallow (I tend to value consistency a bit more than most), but I ended up cutting it since I wanted a 4th "CA" spell. I ended up going -1 Dissolve +1 TT, but next week I'm going to try -1 TT +1 Ob Nix. It's been working for Ozguney on MTGO, so I'll see it how it goes.