I've played 3 MU against 12 post and lost all 3. I am still sorting my deck out so it isn't all it can be, the mana base needs some work and I want to make the shift from Grixis to 4cc. Until then I've added Spreading Seas to my main to try and fight 12 post, along with 3 SB hate cards. Was also thinking if I could prop up my mana base some that I may be able to do Grixis with some Tect edge type land.
I made a guy rage quit on me...
Turn 5 Cruel Ultimatum
Turn 6 Teferi
Turn 7 Knowledge Pool (First time trying it out in the sideboard against them) Hilarious.
hmmmmmm... by the way it reads it doesn't work. I guess its one of those funny rulings that doesn't make since.
But still it is terrible here. You have no way to search for it effectively and cannot play it at instant speed, and it can still be destroyed by a few cards.
Gifts ungiven is a card. You don't have to play it at instant speed because if teferi is on the field they can't respond to it anyway.
Please name these few exceptions to how to destroy it?
EDIT: He thinks that cruel ultimatum is bad because it is sorcery speed apparently if your entire deck isn't instant speed then it isn't really a teachings deck.
First 6 cmc artifact that does not effect board state. Teferi doesn't say your opponent can only play I spell per turn. The whenever clause will no longer be on the stack when your opponent cast there free spell. So i'm pretty sure that it is still considered sorcery speed. Just imagine if you give them a free emrakul.
Combo works, just googled it. If they cast a spell it just goes into knowledge pool and nothing comes out.
The fact that it doesn't effect the board is honestly pretty irrelevant compared to the fact that they can't play anything else for the rest of the game. As long as you can handle what is on the board after you play this card. It is guaranteed GG What are they going to do? play some manlands?
So I'm going to post something that you guys are definitely going to think is trolling, but bare with me.
So I just realized that if this card resolves in a match after you resolved teferi your opponent literally cannot play anything. If nothing else the card makes combo look like the easiest match.
The reason I play mana leak over rune snag is because I feel like to get the full potential out of rune snag you have to counter things aggressively and I'm not the type to just counter anything.
Inferno titan is a fast clock, but is really squishy. You want to run things that you get an advantage out of even if your opponent can destroy them. IMO wurmcoil is the best on that list, but we have a ton of options. Broodmate dragon was really pro back in the day; Heck I've even used siege-gang commander before.
You have obviously never run into a path to exile before. Feels bad man.
Yes, I have been mainly testing vs Big Zoo. Small zoo isn't very popular right now around here for some reason. Affinity is almost as bad though, and its popular... anyways, here is my newest list. I have been revising daily.
I think this is honestly more of a mindset type of thing.
If you are having trouble beating 12 post
Fit 2 more cryptic commands and 4 mindbreak trap into your sideboard. Its how I've been beating them. I guess it also depends on which version you are playing against aswell though. Are you playing against the blue or the green version?
@Devil's Advocate I think Shadowmage Infiltrator would be more suited to Korlash decks.
However, Red over white might be terrible. Not for stupid Punishing/Grove but for some added toolbox goodies like Sulfurous Blast
However, if you are already running Consume the Meek I wouldn't bother with Sulfurous Blast. Or a red splash.
I do remember this as a deck in Timespiral block running Molten Slag Heap for Detritivore out of the board, but I feel he is too slow in this format.
After typing this I realize red has very little to offer.
Firespout is basically a strictly better version of sulfurous blast.
Inferno titan can close a game out quite quickly.
lightning bolt is a card.
sowing salts or whatever the 4 mana land extirpate is called.
There are plenty of good cards in red you just aren't thinking aabout
I'm trying something really odd in my esper teachings deck and I feel like it's possibly worth some discussion. First off, it should be noted that I always have this desire to teachings for something with board presence other than Teferi and there aren't too many flash/instants that fit the bill. So lately, with an odd manabase, I've been trying White Sun's Zenith. If you can get the white mana, it actually feels pretty good, getting you close to a win vs. a blank field or buying you a few blockers if nothing else. The shuffle effect's also neat in that you can, potentially, tutor for the same card multiple times if necessary. I realize it isn't ideal, but I've actually kinda liked it.
I actually tried this one out already and didn't feel like it was worth posting.
The problem isnt with tossing a calciform pools or 2 into the deck it is with actually that late into the game. Doing the math ideally you would want to have atleast 5 cats usually more so that means getting to 8 or more mana. That seems rather unreasonable especially when the accepted number of lands in this thread is only 25.
However I will say that it closes the game out really fast if you do manage to get that late without just killing them on accident with grave titan.
After being rather unsatisfied at a few times with the manabase of the Esper Teachings deck, I decided to look over what exactly being UBW was giving the deck. What I found was that nearly everything white in the deck seemed to be replaceable, so I decided to try my hand at building a strictly UB version of the deck.
UB gives me a more solid manabase overall, while also being able to maximize Dreadship Reef, which I feel is extremely strong in this deck. Having a more solid manabase allows me to run several Cryptic Command without fear, which I think makes the deck a lot more solid in the mid-game. Losing white really hasn't felt that bad, to be honest. I found that Disfigure is a suitable (and often better) early answer to fast threats like Goblin Guide, Wild Nacatl (turn 1), Dark Confidant, and small Goyfs, and I don't have to give the opponent a free turn of mana ramp either. Losing white also means losing Esper Charm, but I really felt like it wasn't nearly as much of a deal as I thought it was. Sure, it's nice to have the versatility and turn 3 card draw, but Charm was often difficult to cast that early and I felt like turn 3 was so important in most games that I played that I wasn't even getting to use it that early. IMO, it's much more important to stay alive early-mid game than it is to gain a bit of card advantage.
Dreadship Reef is only good in the control mirror match. You should build your deck to beat the majority of the field. Congratulations on being prepared for the deck that is least represented.
If you are so confidant in the manabase why in the jesus are you not playing 4 cryptic command? It is the only reason to play blue and you aren't maxing out on it?
Disfigure? Atleast punishing fire is recurable. You are right turn 3 is the most important turn. It is the turn where zoo drops all of its badass 1 drops at once. If only we had a boardsweeper that catches all of those before they just kill us. Oh wait.
My testing group is a LOT of aggro, so maybe this much removal isn't necessary in other metas, but having a turn 1 and/or 2 removal is pertinent at staving off Zoo and other fast aggro decks, so I almost always want to have at least one in my opening hand. The only thing that I really miss about having white in the deck is the potential lifegain. Pulse was a great card for stabilizing after just barely holding off an assault from Zoo or the likes, and my deck often struggles with surviving in burn range. I've looked for suitable alternatives in black, but there's really nothing except Jwar Isle Refuge... which is bad.
So, here's the list I've been testing. I like 1 Rewind because its good in certain situations but really bad in others, and I seem to almost always want Cryptic Command, but not quite always. I also like having a versatile removal suite because it allows me to make more streamlined Gifts piles. Tectonic Edge helps fight against 12 Post and also the horrid manlands that can be a pain, even with all this removal.
Rewind is god awful against zoo unless they are stupid enough to play a card in their mainphase when they could just swing out and kill you.
Thoughts on some other discussion / decks in this thread.
Punishing Fire REALLY isn't what we want to be doing in this deck, at all. It's an unreliable engine to get going and there are better cards in the colors we have to deal with cheap creatures. It adds further inconsistency to the manabase and just doesn't add much of anything to the deck. Coalition Relic? Firespout? Cruel Ultimatum? (not to mention Scars lands over Shocklands. eww) I'm sorry but that's just not what this deck is at all. Move that to another thread.
Better cards than punishing fire? Oh I get it that disfigure that isn't good late game can be used with another disfigure to -1 yourself. How is it unreliable? The fact that you have to draw a land and a spell that you can actually tutor for? That's so unreliable. The idea of having a 2 card combo is so unreliable that other decks like deceiver twin don't see any play at all....
Coalition Relic is so bad. Because turn 4 Titans and turn 5 Cruel Ultimatums are laughable. Firespout is so bad as a turn 3 boardsweeper except for the fact that it kills everything that zoo is doing on turn 3. Cruel ultimatum is such trash. It is at best a +6 that swings the life total by 10 giving you so much momentum that virtually any creature you play can resolve and it will win you the game.
But OP, it's nothing to get that worked up over. There are always going to be some people who are just a bit behind the curve, and they are often very stubborn as well. Don't throw away all the work you've done because of a few dummies, trust that the real discussion will go on through all the crap.
I think Mana Leak is better than Rune Snag, just for a bit of consistency, but I could be wrong and I'm willing to try the Snag. I like Condescend but I couldn't really find room in my build, same for Repeal. There are times when I really like Remand, but when I don't like it I feel that I'd rather have almost anything.
Sometimes the deck feels rather hit or miss, but the format is still extremely young, so there's no telling what the optimal lists will start to look like or if this deck will even be viable. Either way, I'm having a lot more fun testing this than I did testing Zoo, Jund, 12 Post, or any of the combo decks of the format. I love toolboxes and Gifts is my favorite toolbox ever, with Teachings a close second. If only we had Fact or Fiction :3
I have been very civilized and quiet, but if you really want someone to make you look like a complete ass.
This blue black deck is laughably terrible so your entire deck is removal and counters with teferi? Your deck probably gets run over by bloodbraid elf doesn't it? Protip. Careful Consideration is in your color. I suggest you actually use it. Extirpate is in your color and in a format with this many combo decks you don't use it?
Right I'm the dumb guy that is behind the times because I'm playing punishing fire for the inevitability it creates, because I'm playing preordain to smoothout the draws to avoid mana screw/mana flood?, because I'm playing smother over dismember because it actually kills a late game knight without me losing 4 life or paying 1 extra mana.
It is amazing that you guys actually think I'm the dumb silly troll when this guy posted this decklist.
This is my last post in your adorable thread. Enjoy being 2 metas behind.
Your post is a borderline flame. Please keep discussion civil and polite. C_c
I agree; I don't think this thread should be deleted. If anything, I'll write a new introduction/primer and the OP's intro post(s) can be deleted.
Anyway, I decided to drop Spreading Seas for a fourth Cryptic Command, a fourth Esper Charm, a third Firespout, and a Creeping Tar Pit. Here's my updated list:
We should work on a primer although I've never done one before.
And to answer your question Slipknot thinks that punishing fire is bad because it only does 2 damage instead of 3.
Punishing fire may not be able to handle a zoo deck for the first 4 turns, but that is why we play firespout, consume the meek, path to exile, bolts.
Also I don't know if it is good yet, but I'm about to try pulse of the fields as a random 1 of. Saw it in the teachings thread and figured why not. I mean I'll try anything once.
Punishing fire should almost never kill a karn if you play it right. You drop karn presumably after you have established control. You +4 it. It now has TEN loyalty counter's/5 punishing fire's have to be thrown at it before the next mainphase when it +4's again. You also can shoot it in response to the +4 but the +4 is the cost and when activated it immediately gains 4 loyalty counters before anyone can do anything to it.
There were in fact 5 punishing fires thrown at it 2 at end of turn and 3 the next turn. The reason I did it in response to the +4 Targeting me was because my hand was only 2 punishing fires.
So have you guys ever heard of agony warp? Seems like a legit way to keep zoo off our backs. Kill a kird/nacatl/loam take less damage from the knight. I think it can replace lightning bolt if the mana base can support the cost.
2. Cryptic Command
3. Cryptic Command
4. Mana Leak
5. Remand
Seriously I sorry I a spike. But honestly What more could you want out of a card?
Your other thread specifically says I can't talk about cruel ultimatum or punishing fire even though I'm playing grixis teachings.
So I naturally post here instead.
I suggested knowledge pool over there because everybody over there naturally runs teferi and it seems to have simple yet powerful synergy in the deck.
Not everybody runs teferi here so I haven't suggested it here.
I made a guy rage quit on me...
Turn 5 Cruel Ultimatum
Turn 6 Teferi
Turn 7 Knowledge Pool (First time trying it out in the sideboard against them) Hilarious.
Gifts ungiven is a card. You don't have to play it at instant speed because if teferi is on the field they can't respond to it anyway.
Please name these few exceptions to how to destroy it?
EDIT: He thinks that cruel ultimatum is bad because it is sorcery speed apparently if your entire deck isn't instant speed then it isn't really a teachings deck.
Combo works, just googled it. If they cast a spell it just goes into knowledge pool and nothing comes out.
The fact that it doesn't effect the board is honestly pretty irrelevant compared to the fact that they can't play anything else for the rest of the game. As long as you can handle what is on the board after you play this card. It is guaranteed GG What are they going to do? play some manlands?
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Mana Leak
4 Cryptic Command
3 Punishing Fire
3 Firespout
2 Terminate
2 Mystical Teachings
2 Cruel Ultimatum
1 Extirpate
1 Consume the meek
1 Teferi
1 Grave Titan
2 Coalition Relic
Manabase isn't quite where I want it yet. Hence why I haven't posted it.
So I just realized that if this card resolves in a match after you resolved teferi your opponent literally cannot play anything. If nothing else the card makes combo look like the easiest match.
Most of our finishers cost 6 anyway.
You have obviously never run into a path to exile before. Feels bad man.
I think this is honestly more of a mindset type of thing.
If you are having trouble beating 12 post
Fit 2 more cryptic commands and 4 mindbreak trap into your sideboard. Its how I've been beating them. I guess it also depends on which version you are playing against aswell though. Are you playing against the blue or the green version?
Firespout is basically a strictly better version of sulfurous blast.
Inferno titan can close a game out quite quickly.
lightning bolt is a card.
sowing salts or whatever the 4 mana land extirpate is called.
There are plenty of good cards in red you just aren't thinking aabout
I actually tried this one out already and didn't feel like it was worth posting.
The problem isnt with tossing a calciform pools or 2 into the deck it is with actually that late into the game. Doing the math ideally you would want to have atleast 5 cats usually more so that means getting to 8 or more mana. That seems rather unreasonable especially when the accepted number of lands in this thread is only 25.
However I will say that it closes the game out really fast if you do manage to get that late without just killing them on accident with grave titan.
I have been very civilized and quiet, but if you really want someone to make you look like a complete ass.
This blue black deck is laughably terrible so your entire deck is removal and counters with teferi? Your deck probably gets run over by bloodbraid elf doesn't it? Protip. Careful Consideration is in your color. I suggest you actually use it. Extirpate is in your color and in a format with this many combo decks you don't use it?
Right I'm the dumb guy that is behind the times because I'm playing punishing fire for the inevitability it creates, because I'm playing preordain to smoothout the draws to avoid mana screw/mana flood?, because I'm playing smother over dismember because it actually kills a late game knight without me losing 4 life or paying 1 extra mana.
It is amazing that you guys actually think I'm the dumb silly troll when this guy posted this decklist.
This is my last post in your adorable thread. Enjoy being 2 metas behind.
Your post is a borderline flame. Please keep discussion civil and polite. C_c
We should work on a primer although I've never done one before.
And to answer your question Slipknot thinks that punishing fire is bad because it only does 2 damage instead of 3.
Punishing fire may not be able to handle a zoo deck for the first 4 turns, but that is why we play firespout, consume the meek, path to exile, bolts.
Also I don't know if it is good yet, but I'm about to try pulse of the fields as a random 1 of. Saw it in the teachings thread and figured why not. I mean I'll try anything once.
There were in fact 5 punishing fires thrown at it 2 at end of turn and 3 the next turn. The reason I did it in response to the +4 Targeting me was because my hand was only 2 punishing fires.
So have you guys ever heard of agony warp? Seems like a legit way to keep zoo off our backs. Kill a kird/nacatl/loam take less damage from the knight. I think it can replace lightning bolt if the mana base can support the cost.