Given that you will see 2x to 4x Blood Baron of Vizkopa after sideboard, I feel Celestial Flare is one of the most important cards to hold on to after sideboarding against Esper control. How else do you deal with it if you don't counter it?
(only in my crazy version of the deck:)Trading Post does work against baron
Post doesnt need artifacts to be useful. Creating ground blockage as well as gaining 4 life from extra cards works.
Burnished Hart is not a T3 drop unless you are desperate for lands (similar to divination not a T3 drop unless you are digging for answers). I hold both until i can represent counters & cast them in the same turn.
Hart thins the deck down while making your Revs all the better. But, I am the only one who plays this card, so take it for what you will (i won't sweat any if you dont want to try it out).
D-sphere is one of the best removals in our colors and I would not consider trimming from four. Ratchet bomb has other uses besides opponent's Spheres. And it can be recurred. with so few permanents in my deck, it really can be useful against all decks. If i had the room, I'd include 2 more.
Thassa is never meant to be a creature in this deck, rather she smooths out my draws and gives unblockability to my bears.
I'm not sure how much I like the Elixir of Immortality version of this deck.
It seems like it relies WAY too much on the singleton Elixir.
If it somehow gets Thoughtseized, D-Sphered, Pithing Needled, etc while you're low on cards, that could cause some problems.
The lack of AEtherling in the 75 doesn't attract me either.
The inevitability AEtherling has, as well as its ability to close games quickly after resolved is just too much to not play him.
Relying on that 1-of Elsepth and 1-of Jace, MA after SB with a bunch of Hero's Downfalls/D-Spheres/Needles running around isn't the best idea.
However, I do like the idea of chaining Sphinx's Revelations forever. And, if you get to the point where your opponent has nothing or has little cards remaining in their library, you can easily win the game then. The problem with that though is that it takes a lot of time to get to either of those points, causing you have have a lot of round draws or some massive headaches from drawn out games.
Well, watching DzyL play, I decided to include a Trading Post in my MD to recover if the elixir was countered/thoughseized/etc. I also have the singleton ratchet bomb to combat detention spheres, though honestly, you dont lay down elixir until you plan to utilize it.
I was previously playing a stocked PW control Esper build, but hero's downfall was a big problem. Now, if they kill my PW's, elixir will eventually cycle them back into the deck to be re-drawn.
Despite the deck appearing slow, I did not go to time in any of the four rounds that I played in yesterday. I actually did a lot of people in with some combination of blind obedience, burnished hart, thass, god of the sea and mutavault. The amount of draw in the deck found me singletons quite quickly.
That being said, I would not mind trying to fit in a codex shredder as a means to more quickly retrieve a downed/discarded/spent spell, as opposed to waiting on an Exilir (what if you've already gone through 3 verdicts against aggro, and havent found the elixir yet?). Plus Codex Shredder & Trading Post are good buddies (thinking of mid/late game against control when you continually pull back a Dissolve from the yard every. single. turn. Or, same vs midrange, but with Verdict? I once forced an Aetherling to blink (azorious charm) for 15 turns in a row... :)).
Im just now getting into the U/W bandwagon after watching DzyL stream a Cuneo variant on Twitch. Last night I took my version of the deck to my LGS and went 3-1.
I played against U/G Nykthos (2-0), R Nykthos (2-0), and G/W aggro (2-0), before losing both the die roll and the match (1-2) to R aggro.
DzyL has been calling this version "U/W Durdles" and has been grinding it to decent success for QPs. The idea of the deck is to get to mid-game, and then endlessly cycle Sphinx's Revelations and Elixir of Immortality for way more life than your opponent can deal (even facing Aetherling).
Thassa, God of the Sea is in the build as there have been multiple games where i get to mid/late game and draw land after land. Sure, if I have a Revelation in hand, this is not too big of a deal, but there are many times where i do not.
Burnished Hart is a card that I have been playing with in U/W Post for some time and really like it. It ramps // fixes my mana and thins the deck. It can be abused with Trading Post.
Ratchet Bomb: a singleton in the 60 as it is a bit slow against aggro. I have it more to combat opposing detention spheres, legendary artifact/enchantments, and potentially plainswalkers. Can be abused with Trading Post.
Blind Obedience: In the main as an additional source of life gain as well as protection from hasty folk. Also has fun with Aetherling.
Please let me know your thoughts on this build. I want to tweak it a bit more (possibly another Ratchet bomb, thassa, blind obedience, etc). i'd love to go against R aggro with a high level of confidence.
I don't really know. I think some of the new artifact enchantments will be very good in this deck, and I also really wanted to try out Ral Zarek.
Ral Zarek sounds pretty sexy, nice idea. I want/wanted a high number of basics in my build to play around burning earth, so i've stuck to just U/W, but I do like a [more]greedy manabase. My plainswalker of choice for this deck has been either Tamiyo or Jace, Architect (Jace is really good at stalling until you find the needed wrath (vs aggro), or burying opponent in card advantage (vs control)).
Forgive me, but while I follow the spoiler, I do not really look to include new cards until I physically have them in my hands, or until ~ the week before the release...
@baldwinicus: :my decklist is a bit fluid, but I'd be happy to post it once i get home (at work at the moment).
Edit: My decklist below:
A few notes: yes, I run 61 cards
-I do not utilize mill to win (3 haunted platemail, 4 mutavault instead)
-There are no counters in my 61 (but there are some hiding in the SB)
-Rhox faithmender (sideboard) has been freaking amazing in this build against aggro, especially when suited up.
-I still have issues with mono-R nut draws on the play (i.e. T1 Rakdos Cackler T2: Burning-Tree Emissary, Burning-Tree Emissary, Burning-Tree Emissary, Lightning Mauler), but I've put up good results against all other builds (though some Jund can be a bit dicey)
-Mutavaults are great at holding off or trading against early aggro. They also are a good clock after a board wipe or against control.
Some good ideas in this thread. Watching Cuneo on Twitch I redesigned and built my own version. Took it to a GPT last weekend and went x-1-1 in preliminary rounds to make it into top 8 in 3rd. I swept my quarters and then lost to Jund in the semis; completely flooding out in both games.
Overall, I was pretty impressed. Im in a bit of a hurry, so no decklist just yet, but I have to admit: I included 4 mutavault in the MD. Those little suckers really put up a clock after a board wipes! I milled out exactly 0 people in the GPT (not my decks designed intention).
I just wanted to pop in (recently getting back into EDH, baby is my first rebuild) and comment.
My baby deck almost never casts baby; I rely on huge land dumping/deck thinning, and only utilize baby when I need to clear a troublesome permanent or two. By utilizing baby in this manner, my deck is not considered "Degenerate" by my playgroup.
I had a dream about Mutavault. For an extra G mana, you suit him up with rancor and you dont "lose" the enchantment when it turns back into a pumpkin, err, land. And, it doesnt die to a sorcery speed wrath. Im just not sure I can fit much colorless land in such a tight manabase (plus 2 boxes only yielded 2)
@badjuju: congrats on the finish dude. Always fun to get a pro to rage a bit (my experience is in poker for that type of fun).
Did you end up abandoning 4c (i.e. splashing R)?
Beating Esper? I would suggest you find room for strangleroot geist in the board. Hasty 2/1's that just grow in the face of most removal is the key to killing Esper quickly. also mentioned earlier, but spell rupture is a fine answer to a fused 5cmc card.
And you said the manabase worked pretty well? I was testing it tonight and feel like maybe it could stand -1 Stomping Ground, +1 Sacred Foundry (or Sunpetal Grove or Glacial Fortress). What do you think?
Not sure if the cards were in my favor or not, but I curved out nearly perfect every game. There was even a game against Boros Aggro that I go (shock) pilgrim (shock) reckoner and completely held the game from T2 on.
I did consider changing the mana a touch, but recall that with pilgrim, we do want G as early as possible as it in turn enables W. If I were to change it going forward, it would be to push a stomping ground to a Steam Vents.
I did have a single game in which I mulled and only had 1 W source with 2 reckoners. I killed my opponent without ever casting either of the reckoners (or getting past 2 R/ sources).
Please note that for my build, R mana was almost unnecessary early as Reckoner can land off of just W (I did that 2x), and Boros Charm is more of a finisher (or protector) and doesnt need to come down in the first few turns.
EDIT: @ Spec1alFX: I dont know about you, but my meta is chuck full of super aggro. In UWG i have a very hard time racing if I dont draw one of my 4 courage (our creatures outside of Voice dont trade very well unless suited up, and then we are attacking, not blocking). Even Pilgrims from the SB doesn't guarantee that I'll win the next 2.
Adding Boros Reckoner was a thought for me, but super greedy requiring essentially WWW (in Bant). By shifting the mana base to add R (and more overall sources for Reckoner) I can justify playing this guy (charm as an added bonus, honestly it is better than simic charm for this deck). If anything, I played 2 hyper aggro matches this past Tuesday and 2-0'd both.
Will I continue with this next week? Maybe... We do get new cards, and perhaps they can shore up the aggro match (looking at you Fiendslayer Paladin). Though perhaps Pally will pair up nicely with Reckoner...
The manabase isn't 100% yet as a certain number of shocks need to become checklands (likely Hallowed Fountains into Glacial Fortresses, at the least), but I've been too busy with alters to really sit down and bang it out so feel free to adjust as you wish.
Thanks,
I took a look at the mana and have to agree, that while greedy, it may work. If you continue with this mana base I would not recommend that you replace shocklands with checklands. Recall that we want to get our threats down as soon as possible and we also require a mixed bag of a hand (creatures/land/enchantments). I for one would not want to open the "ideal hand" but all land being checklands and therefore slow me down a turn or be forced to mulligan.
I had a LGS tourney last night and tweaked my current build to include R. I incorporated R to include not just boros charm, but boros reckoner as well. In 3 rounds I did not drop a single game despite mulliganing once or twice. I faced Boros Aggro, Orzhov Control (11 wraths MD), & GR aggro.
Reckoner was a complete house against aggro (previously one of my toughest matchups), and made both charm and Nearheath Pilgrim much more appealing.
EDIT: as far as the manabase, 2 times I had to mulligan, but not based on color, rather on too much or not enough mana. In only one game (out of 6) I had trouble casting a reckoner that was in hand, most games I dropped one T2 (pilgrim provides W) or T3. The manabase that you are using + pilgrims yields 18 sources of R/... And yes, I shocked myself a freaking ton, but it did not matter as opponents were too busy trying to fend off the assault(s).
@badjuju: I for one, cherish risky/shaky mana bases. I would love to see your mana base if your willing to show it, or at a minimum how many lands you are using (so that I can figure it out on my own).
With a R splash, have you considered any of the enchantments from red? i.e. madcap skills, furor of the bitten, volcanic strength (SB?), curse of stalked prey, etc?
Side Note: on 7/12 SCG had a M14 hexproof vs GW township match. Gladecover scout looked horrid and witchstalker was sided out immediately (better for SB perhaps?). I have never been much of a fan of Voice of resurgence in this build (Id rather it be in a token deck) and it was not present in this deck. Personally, I dont like the thought of sharing my evasive enchantments between Geist ost & gladecover scout. What Im curious about is mainly strionic resonator (2x angel tokens from geist mainly, may not be worth it in this deck), and Xathrid Necromancer (replaces itself, as well as pilgrim & stalker).
hey gislasa, look at the post by Illinest a few above you... I agree that this deck needs to aggressively mulligan AND it has the tendency to mulligan poorly (needing 2 land, a creature & pants gets harder the less cards you have in hand).
@ tebunker. Aggro can be a weak matchup if you dont find the right pants, and a reason that I suggested perhaps some form of wrath in the SB. While it would slow us somewhat in G2/G3, it would be a complete blow out to the aggro player who wouldnt be expecting it.
Otherwise, fatties are helpful here: Smiters & Wurms can block for days, and if they want to discard (i.e. bloodrush) their guy to get over my smiter, well, then, my smiter just "traded" with their bloodrush card (perhaps not the greatest way to look at it)...
Finally, folks: we do have a sub forum all to ourselves. Question about mulliganing? Start a new thread. Question about [vs] Aggro? Start a new thread? These would then perhaps get more attention!
congrats everyone on getting our own forum under Proven! Also, Sam Black has a video post up on SCG Premium this morning; I love to see Advent of the wurm in his 75
EDIT.
Seems im not bright enough on how to use deck tags, can someone tell me what i did wrong?
instead of [/Deck]... [/Deck], try [DECK ]...[/DECK] (less the "/", but also remove the "spacing" that I added to the first deck so that it did not automatically try to deck the "...")
you could also hit the deck icon in the top right and then put your list within.
(only in my crazy version of the deck:)Trading Post does work against baron
Burnished Hart is not a T3 drop unless you are desperate for lands (similar to divination not a T3 drop unless you are digging for answers). I hold both until i can represent counters & cast them in the same turn.
Hart thins the deck down while making your Revs all the better. But, I am the only one who plays this card, so take it for what you will (i won't sweat any if you dont want to try it out).
D-sphere is one of the best removals in our colors and I would not consider trimming from four. Ratchet bomb has other uses besides opponent's Spheres. And it can be recurred. with so few permanents in my deck, it really can be useful against all decks. If i had the room, I'd include 2 more.
Thassa is never meant to be a creature in this deck, rather she smooths out my draws and gives unblockability to my bears.
Again though, these are just my opinions.
Well, watching DzyL play, I decided to include a Trading Post in my MD to recover if the elixir was countered/thoughseized/etc. I also have the singleton ratchet bomb to combat detention spheres, though honestly, you dont lay down elixir until you plan to utilize it.
I was previously playing a stocked PW control Esper build, but hero's downfall was a big problem. Now, if they kill my PW's, elixir will eventually cycle them back into the deck to be re-drawn.
Despite the deck appearing slow, I did not go to time in any of the four rounds that I played in yesterday. I actually did a lot of people in with some combination of blind obedience, burnished hart, thass, god of the sea and mutavault. The amount of draw in the deck found me singletons quite quickly.
That being said, I would not mind trying to fit in a codex shredder as a means to more quickly retrieve a downed/discarded/spent spell, as opposed to waiting on an Exilir (what if you've already gone through 3 verdicts against aggro, and havent found the elixir yet?). Plus Codex Shredder & Trading Post are good buddies (thinking of mid/late game against control when you continually pull back a Dissolve from the yard every. single. turn. Or, same vs midrange, but with Verdict? I once forced an Aetherling to blink (azorious charm) for 15 turns in a row... :)).
I played against U/G Nykthos (2-0), R Nykthos (2-0), and G/W aggro (2-0), before losing both the die roll and the match (1-2) to R aggro.
DzyL has been calling this version "U/W Durdles" and has been grinding it to decent success for QPs. The idea of the deck is to get to mid-game, and then endlessly cycle Sphinx's Revelations and Elixir of Immortality for way more life than your opponent can deal (even facing Aetherling).
I modified the deck a bit to this:
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1x Thassa, God of the Sea
2x Burnished Hart
1x Blind Obedience
4x Detention Sphere
1x Trading Post
1x Elixir of Immortality
1x Ratchet Bomb
3x Azorius Charm
1x Celestial Flare
1x Essence Scatter
1x Syncopate
4x Dissolve
4x Sphinx's Revelation
4x Supreme Verdict
4x Azorius Guildgate
4x Hallowed Fountain
1x Temple of Deceit
1x Temple of Silence
7x Island
7x Plains
2x Mutavault
3x Last Breath
2x Negate
2x Gainsay
2x Pithing Needle
1x Jace, Memory Adept
1x Ratchet Bomb
3x Fiendslayer Paladin
1x Glare of Heresy
Please let me know your thoughts on this build. I want to tweak it a bit more (possibly another Ratchet bomb, thassa, blind obedience, etc). i'd love to go against R aggro with a high level of confidence.
Ral Zarek sounds pretty sexy, nice idea. I want/wanted a high number of basics in my build to play around burning earth, so i've stuck to just U/W, but I do like a [more]greedy manabase. My plainswalker of choice for this deck has been either Tamiyo or Jace, Architect (Jace is really good at stalling until you find the needed wrath (vs aggro), or burying opponent in card advantage (vs control)).
Forgive me, but while I follow the spoiler, I do not really look to include new cards until I physically have them in my hands, or until ~ the week before the release...
@baldwinicus: :my decklist is a bit fluid, but I'd be happy to post it once i get home (at work at the moment).
Edit: My decklist below:
A few notes: yes, I run 61 cards
-I do not utilize mill to win (3 haunted platemail, 4 mutavault instead)
-There are no counters in my 61 (but there are some hiding in the SB)
-Rhox faithmender (sideboard) has been freaking amazing in this build against aggro, especially when suited up.
-I still have issues with mono-R nut draws on the play (i.e. T1 Rakdos Cackler T2: Burning-Tree Emissary, Burning-Tree Emissary, Burning-Tree Emissary, Lightning Mauler), but I've put up good results against all other builds (though some Jund can be a bit dicey)
-Mutavaults are great at holding off or trading against early aggro. They also are a good clock after a board wipe or against control.
2x Jace, Architect of Thought
Artifacts
3x Trading Post
3x Haunted Plate Mail
3x Prophetic Prism
3x Ratchet Bomb
1x Elixer of Immortality
1x Codex Shredder
Enchantments
2x Blind Obedience
2x Detention Sphere
4x Azorius Charm
3x Think Twice
4x Sphinx's Revelation
4x Supreme Verdict
Land
4x Glacial Fortress
4x Hallowed Fountaint
6x Plains
6x Island
2x Encroaching Wastes
4x Mutavault
3x Terminus
1x Blind Obedience
2x Pithing Needle
1x Tormod's Crypt
3x Rhox Faithmender
1x Curse of Echoes
2x Dissipate
2x Syncopate
Overall, I was pretty impressed. Im in a bit of a hurry, so no decklist just yet, but I have to admit: I included 4 mutavault in the MD. Those little suckers really put up a clock after a board wipes! I milled out exactly 0 people in the GPT (not my decks designed intention).
My baby deck almost never casts baby; I rely on huge land dumping/deck thinning, and only utilize baby when I need to clear a troublesome permanent or two. By utilizing baby in this manner, my deck is not considered "Degenerate" by my playgroup.
My finishers are mainly: maze lands, Debt to the deathless, blind obedience, Ob Nixilis, the Fallen (fun w/ bounce lands & Patron of the Moon), and Borborygmos Enraged.
I currently run Chromatic Lantern, Prismatic Omen, riftstone portal to protect against blood moon type effects. There are no basic lands in my build. Currently at 57 land, but that fluctuates as sets come out.
@badjuju: congrats on the finish dude. Always fun to get a pro to rage a bit (my experience is in poker for that type of fun).
Did you end up abandoning 4c (i.e. splashing R)?
Beating Esper? I would suggest you find room for strangleroot geist in the board. Hasty 2/1's that just grow in the face of most removal is the key to killing Esper quickly. also mentioned earlier, but spell rupture is a fine answer to a fused 5cmc card.
Not sure if the cards were in my favor or not, but I curved out nearly perfect every game. There was even a game against Boros Aggro that I go (shock) pilgrim (shock) reckoner and completely held the game from T2 on.
I did consider changing the mana a touch, but recall that with pilgrim, we do want G as early as possible as it in turn enables W. If I were to change it going forward, it would be to push a stomping ground to a Steam Vents.
I did have a single game in which I mulled and only had 1 W source with 2 reckoners. I killed my opponent without ever casting either of the reckoners (or getting past 2 R/ sources).
Please note that for my build, R mana was almost unnecessary early as Reckoner can land off of just W (I did that 2x), and Boros Charm is more of a finisher (or protector) and doesnt need to come down in the first few turns.
EDIT: @ Spec1alFX: I dont know about you, but my meta is chuck full of super aggro. In UWG i have a very hard time racing if I dont draw one of my 4 courage (our creatures outside of Voice dont trade very well unless suited up, and then we are attacking, not blocking). Even Pilgrims from the SB doesn't guarantee that I'll win the next 2.
Adding Boros Reckoner was a thought for me, but super greedy requiring essentially WWW (in Bant). By shifting the mana base to add R (and more overall sources for Reckoner) I can justify playing this guy (charm as an added bonus, honestly it is better than simic charm for this deck). If anything, I played 2 hyper aggro matches this past Tuesday and 2-0'd both.
Will I continue with this next week? Maybe... We do get new cards, and perhaps they can shore up the aggro match (looking at you Fiendslayer Paladin). Though perhaps Pally will pair up nicely with Reckoner...
my decklist is as follows:
3x Avacyn's Pilgrim
4x Geist of Saint Traft
4x Invisible Stalker
4x Voice of Resurgence
4x Boros Reckoner
Pants
4x Rancor
4x Ethereal Armor
4x Spectral Flight
4x Unflinching Courage
3x Boros Charm
Lands
4x Breeding Pool
4x Hallowed Fountain
3x Hinterland Harbor
2x Sacred Foundry
4x Stomping Ground
1x Sunpetal Grove
4x Temple Garden
1x Ready / Willing
3x Spell Rupture
2x Ray of Revelation
3x Skylasher
3x Nearheath Pilgrim
3x Izzet Staticaster
Thanks,
I took a look at the mana and have to agree, that while greedy, it may work. If you continue with this mana base I would not recommend that you replace shocklands with checklands. Recall that we want to get our threats down as soon as possible and we also require a mixed bag of a hand (creatures/land/enchantments). I for one would not want to open the "ideal hand" but all land being checklands and therefore slow me down a turn or be forced to mulligan.
I had a LGS tourney last night and tweaked my current build to include R. I incorporated R to include not just boros charm, but boros reckoner as well. In 3 rounds I did not drop a single game despite mulliganing once or twice. I faced Boros Aggro, Orzhov Control (11 wraths MD), & GR aggro.
Reckoner was a complete house against aggro (previously one of my toughest matchups), and made both charm and Nearheath Pilgrim much more appealing.
EDIT: as far as the manabase, 2 times I had to mulligan, but not based on color, rather on too much or not enough mana. In only one game (out of 6) I had trouble casting a reckoner that was in hand, most games I dropped one T2 (pilgrim provides W) or T3. The manabase that you are using + pilgrims yields 18 sources of R/... And yes, I shocked myself a freaking ton, but it did not matter as opponents were too busy trying to fend off the assault(s).
With a R splash, have you considered any of the enchantments from red? i.e. madcap skills, furor of the bitten, volcanic strength (SB?), curse of stalked prey, etc?
Side Note: on 7/12 SCG had a M14 hexproof vs GW township match. Gladecover scout looked horrid and witchstalker was sided out immediately (better for SB perhaps?). I have never been much of a fan of Voice of resurgence in this build (Id rather it be in a token deck) and it was not present in this deck. Personally, I dont like the thought of sharing my evasive enchantments between Geist ost & gladecover scout. What Im curious about is mainly strionic resonator (2x angel tokens from geist mainly, may not be worth it in this deck), and Xathrid Necromancer (replaces itself, as well as pilgrim & stalker).
@ tebunker. Aggro can be a weak matchup if you dont find the right pants, and a reason that I suggested perhaps some form of wrath in the SB. While it would slow us somewhat in G2/G3, it would be a complete blow out to the aggro player who wouldnt be expecting it.
Otherwise, fatties are helpful here: Smiters & Wurms can block for days, and if they want to discard (i.e. bloodrush) their guy to get over my smiter, well, then, my smiter just "traded" with their bloodrush card (perhaps not the greatest way to look at it)...
Finally, folks: we do have a sub forum all to ourselves. Question about mulliganing? Start a new thread. Question about [vs] Aggro? Start a new thread? These would then perhaps get more attention!
instead of [/Deck]... [/Deck], try [DECK ]...[/DECK] (less the "/", but also remove the "spacing" that I added to the first deck so that it did not automatically try to deck the "...")
you could also hit the deck icon in the top right and then put your list within.