Well, I have some updates to make. I've another version of this to post with a black splash that may interest you. I never realized the potency of Steppe Lynx until I actually got my hands dirty and tried it. He can get to 16/17 turn 3 if you have a sunrise!
Additionally, I've found a way to get some sick redundancy at 2 mana. It's Grim Discovery. This allows me to lead turn 1 with a valuable card like Martyr or the Lynx, and intentionally let it be the target of an incoming removal spell. If he's dead by turn 2, I lose nothing out of the deal. I can cast Grim Discovery and get the creature and the land back.This provides the crucial link between land drop #2 and land drop #3.
As for AoS in the main, I am missing it a lot. I feel like the notion to put it in the sb was ill-advised. AoS can break a Twin, Pod, Pyro Ascension, blades, Ghostly Prisons, Wurmcoil Engines, Cranial Platings, and further casting of artifacts. After I post my next build, I'd like to see if someone can work the AoS back in.
Also, I have finally started using Cockatrice as of recent days and I'm enjoying it a lot. The learning curve function-wise was really simple. Plus it saves my replays -- you know what this means... I can actually provide statistics for this deck!
One last thing... I ran into a member of MTGS while on Cockatrice and have been taking some really useful advice from him. It turns out he read the thread before he met me on cockatrice, and even said he wanted to see this deck blossom and develop further as I experience more advanced techniques. I'm really motivated to push this deck far.
I'm tired of rebutting the same claims. I'm here for advice, martyr-proc discussion belongs in the martyr-proc thread. Please stop kicking that dead horse. It's already been established 100 times I'm not going martyr-proc.
I will talk about your last sentence however, because you seem curious about my land thinning. 3 uncracked fetches (or 1 Fetchland and 1 Ghost Quarter) + 1 Sunrise = 3 extra lands (In the case of 1 fetch + 1 GQ its still 3 untapped lands, but you actually only profit 2 lands). You can follow that up with another second sunrise immediately. Eggs doesn't use fetchlands the way I do. I can go off using more than Quarter. There's also Arid Mesa and Marsh Flats.
Um, no. You tried to say I was comparing myself to Martyr-Proc in terms of a general scope.
The only reasons I ever brought up Martyr-Proc were for the situational scenarios that were brought up in these rebuttals. (Though I do truly believe this outpaces Martyr Proc in just about everything it tries to do, sans combat)
As for proving myself, that's not really what I came here to do. I like this deck and will likely use it and continually revise it as I play MtG. What I came here to do was get useful advice, and I got a lot of it already. Feel free to contribute.
My latest build is a few posts above here. The MO is as follows:
Early: Prioritize playing fetchlands, unless a 1-drop is in the opener. Don't crack the fetches unless you need to in order to play a Mind Stone. A Plains-Ghost Quarter lead is optimal. Also, if both Mind Stone and Conjurer's Bauble are in the opener, you can wait until you cast Mind Stone to cast Conjurer's Bauble.
Turn 3/4: You should be ready for your first Sunrise effect. Play from here as you would in my first post.
By turns 4,5, and 6 you should be recycling, drawing and casting Sunrises via the Bauble/Mind Stone/Canopy, gaining life via Martyr/Children, and thinning out your deck with the mass of fetchlands in the deck. If you're all done fetching and have no use for the Ghost Quarter, you can turn GQ into recurrable land domination.
WARNING: Be careful when pairing GQ targetting enemy lands with Second Sunrise. Stack should be as follows:
1) Go ahead and sac the GQ targetting an enemy land.
2) Talk to your opponent, and make sure he knows in advance that you're stacking this and its ability WILL NOT resolve yet.
3) With the ability on the stack, cast Second Sunrise. You get the GQ land back (as well as anything else you may have wanted to sac).
4) GQ's effect resolves, destroying the land that was targetted, and avoiding that land coming back via Sunrise.
Also as it turns out... All the *****ing I did in this thread should be of use to you. In my madness I explained what I can do in some pretty tough matchups.
Hardcasting Proc is just 3 mana.
Martyr Proc doesn't need any ramp because it has an aggro curve. As stated earlier, Martyr-Proc does not have an aggro-curve unless you manage to get a starting hand of exactly: Plains-Plains-Martyr-Serra-White-White-White, and then topdeck another white card turn 2, so that martyr gives you >=10 life. You have to open with a Serra Ascendant who is a sitting duck to Bolts/Paths/Disfigures if you go first, and also Doom Blades/Incinerates/JTNs if you're going second.
Hardcasting Proc also can only retrieve 1/1's. Second Sunrise retrieves card-drawing artifacts, lands that get more lands, AND the creatures, even if they have 2+cc.
The words "this turn" ring a bell? You need to keep enough mana up or your opponent will just clear your board anyway. Plus, you have absolutely nothing else that can be casted at instant speed, so leaving 1WW untapped is like saying "I have Sunrise in my hand, please punish me for not playing anything on my main phase". My hand will be revealed most of the time anyway because of Martyr. They will also see the consequences of countering the spell in that scenario and will have to choose between countering my ramp shenanigans or dealing with an incoming threat.
Serra Ascendant will eventually run your opponent out of life if you're at 250. And it's good at every point of the game, not just late. Serra ascendant looks good in theory. In practice he flops to removal WAY too easily.
If your Sunrise is countered, you've still lost a whole bunch of Kamis, Martyrs, lands, etc which you're not going to get back. That's enough to set your tempo back to the point of irrecoverability. I'll say the same thing here as you claim about Serra Ascendant. Even if that happens, I still get the sacrifice effects, meaning draws, lifegain, lands, whatever... Then next turn I drop a threat card, because he's tapped out and unable to cast another counterspell until he's able to untap again. As for the cards that are lost -- they are not permanently lost. Sun Titan, Conjurer's Bauble, and a Second Second Sunrise (if later in the game and I have 3 more mana to spare) can bring them all back eventually. Additionally, I don't have to flop out ALL of my sacrificeable permanents in one opener.
And with regards to your new deck, I applaud you for keeping to 60 cards, but 1) You might as well play more Plains than Urborg, Don't need to. The fetches alone get to 7 easily enough via recursion. You'd be surprised at this deck's land acceleration if you saw it. I usually get totally thinned out by turn 4-5.
and 2) 15 creatures and 2 Wraths don't mix (I know that you can Wrath + Reward, but that's 8 mana total). Don't forget that SS/FR are not the only recursion outlets. If I have to wait it out and let Emeria + Titan bring everyone back, I can. ***'s worth it in the long run. Also note that 5 of those 15 creatures never get casted until late game.
Urborg is added so that the Fetchlands can be tapped for mana without saccing them. This may have functional benefits in that early game mana pinch, as well as late game when the fetchlands lose their purpose.
About the 60 cards thing, I've tried a zero-combat version which removes the blades and crusaders, and while it does run smoother and nets a LOT of felidar wins (ran 13-4 on MWS yesterday with that), the deck becomes entirely dependent on felidar, and I'm a little worried in that respect. I suppose I can still do unblockable combat through Tails + Titan if I lose Felidar.
With all the advice I have taken in and used, I think a revised list is overdue for me to show everyone. Who knows, maybe this version will turn some heads with its even faster start.
I know I ***** a lot, but do keep the comments coming. I have a lot of passion for this build so I get snappy sometimes. However, I really do appreciate everything that's come up so far. It's allowed me to take an outside perspective on something I look at almost every 5 seconds.
I suppose I can test the canopy to see what happens. I do have tons of land acceleration so I guess it shouldn't be a problem to include it.
I'm also wrong about the mind stones. I've noticed in practice that the stones and the bauble work REALLY well together (cast a stone, follow up with a bauble cast, and your first sunrise ends up super potent) so I'm considering a 4&4 inclusion of both, removing Wall of Omens.
In scenarios where Aura of silence is useless is your chance to board it out the next game. However, there are situations where I like AoS in play against UR storm. Here's why:
1) I have at least 1 Leyline and AoS in play.
2) They Use Echoing Truth.
3) I respond by saccing AoS to bust the leyline that was targetted. That's enough to break them if I have 2 leylines. If I have only 1 or they bust the other I bide my time.
4) They start going off. Just before impact of the first burn spell, restore the Leyline with a Sunrise.
Also bear in mind that most hate against this type of strategy (Relics, LotV, O-rings, etc) are often in Art/enchant form. Having AoS maindeck discourages the use of said hate cards when sideboarding time comes.
Also AoS is gold against pod (the card, not the entire deck). After they pay the steep price to cast it I can sac the AoS and bust the Pod.
Vedalken Shackles is a huge problem, because it's colorless. AoS is great for dealing with it.
Also I feel like you missed a huge host of Artifact creatures, like Tidehollow Sculler, Ethersworn Canonist, Phyrexian metamorph, Wurmcoil engine...
Okay, your deck is awesome. Sorry for critiquing your deck like your post specifically asks people to. (why ask for critiques if you just write off everything everyone says with "I'm playing "x" card, and "x" card beats "y" archetype") To critique is one thing. To critique without reading is stupid. I haven't been writing off everyone, but you'd know that if you simply read the thread. You mistake me for an egomaniac. I reiterate that I am a humble but experienced player seeking experienced advice. None of which you have given.
Just because you have 1-2 cards in your deck that can answer an archetype doesn't mean you'll always draw them, and also is a bit arrogant in assuming your opponent won't be able to play around or answer said hate card. It's like saying "I beat storm combo because I'm playing 2x Thalia." Sure it helps if you draw it (which is much more likely when you're not playing 70 cards) but it's also underestimating your opponent greatly, and any good combo / aggro player will have lots of experience playing through and around hate. It's not just 1-2 cards, it's 5-6 -additional- cards that make my front that much more potent against that strategy. I don't need -just- those cards to defend against said combos, and 8 1/2 doubles as a shield for a locking card.
And how is this faster than Martyr Proc? Martyr Proc will frequently have a 6/6 flier out turn 2-3, That requires both Martyr and Ascendant in the opening hand. That's infrequent to say the least and even the Martyr-Proc thread here admits that.
then will proceed to grab 2 more 6/6 fliers off a "4 drop 1 shot effect". In order to keep them as 6/6's you'd need to stay above 30 life. Martyr-Proc doesn't successfully manage that often enough at turn 4.
You're saying Sky-Hussar, a card that's entirely useless unless you have 2 creatures in play, and will at best draw you 1 card per turn is faster and more consistent ? It's -only- purpose is to draw me one extra card per turn, for free, and my deck runs a staggering number of creatures, all of which are not vulnerable to removal because of sunrise.
If you're looking for deck validation for how strong this is, prove it by playing it in tournaments and posting results / outcomes. I don't get the impression you ever wanted a real "critique" so much as people to tell you how awesome the deck is. To critique is one thing. To critique without reading is stupid. I haven't been writing off everyone, but you'd know that if you simply read the thread. You mistake me for an egomaniac. I reiterate that I am a humble but experienced player seeking experienced advice. None of which you have given. Feeling of de ja vu? I felt it too when you said the same thing twice just then. I mean really, are you here to provide useful help or to rant at someone simply because he's filtering through the useless comments to get to the helpful ones?
There is a LOT of situational cards in here.
Aura of Silence maindeck = incredibly situational. Aura of Silence is not situational in my deck. Creatures are easily fended off by the cards I'm already using elsewhere in the deck. The only remaining threats are noncreature ones, and that's what this deals with.
This is the equivalent of playing maindeck disenchant, which zero decks play. This is not an MD Disenchant. It's recurrable.
Even teachings, which has a tutor package will rarely play maindeck cards that can only hurt enchantments or artifacts. Comparing this to teachings shows how little you paid attention to what this deck tries to do.
Felidar Sovereign = incredibly situational. Thanks, Captain Obvious. That's why he's a 1x and doesn't drop unless the battle is in stasis and I know he can go unscathed.
It's only half-way good once you have 40+ life after turn 6 (which happens... never),
Most of my turn 6's have me up and over 250-260 life. Martyr-Proc can't even match that.
and then you still have to protect it from path to exile and other effects. Lets not make the assumption here that you have Eight and a Half Tails, 40+ life, and 7 mana to protect it. You're not goldfishing, and if you're at that point of 40 life and 7 mana, chances are, you won't need Felidar to win.
Protecting it from path costs 2 mana. That's easy. Protecting it from other effects costs 3 mana. Protecting it from death is unnecessary, because of Emeria. Incoming Extractions or relics can be countered with a sunrise.
Wrath of god is even quite situational in the modern environment, especially considering it's pretty counter-intuitive to your deck's strategy. You shouldn't be relying on a late-game "reset" button, and there really aren't that many decks in the format that rely on a swarm of creatures anyway to win. Most of the time you're going to be using a 4 mana wrath to kill a 1 mana delver, or 2 mana Dark Confidant.
Tell that to Golgari, Jund, Kikki/Twin, WW, Bant, Naya.... and just about 70% of the meta who relies on creatures to win
Sky Hussar = 5 mana creature that can only start drawing you cards when you have 2 or more creatures in play, which may never even happen against a large portion of the meta. There are a lot of far superior ways to generate card advantage in a much more consistent and efficient fashion. You already tried to talk about Sky hussar and I'm increasingly starting to feel that you're just rambling at this point. I reiterate that it's not hard for me to keep 2 1-drops in play when the enemy is afraid of their removal spell being useless on them because I have the option to sac that creature at any time. And I can even recur them with Sunrise.
Do I need to make a tl;dr format for you guys? Seriously, I ALREADY TALKED about what you just said. In fact 90% of what you said was already rebutted, in the very paragraph you quoted!
Subject necromancy is a sin.
Master of Etherium is easily blockable.
Signal Pest dies to ratchet bomb.
I do not wait for emeria to get my creatures back. I have three outlets for recursion -- SS/FR, Titan, and Emeria.
If I wanted aggro intensive I'd run WW. this isn't WW in the sense that I can ATTACK WHILE DEFENDING (how many times have I said that in this thread?)
I'm not control. 3 ***'s and 3 Paths in a 70-card build is merely enough for an emergency restart if necessary. Late Game *** is paired with FR (said this before too) so I lose nothing from it, in fact I may get extra draws out of it from Omens triggers.
Nothing here is "situational" by any means (I said this before too!). SS and FR can be casted whenever I feel like using them. They're INSTANTS. (and the sacrifice outlets are instant-level as well).
As I said earlier, Martyr-Proc is the slow deck, not me. Where do you get off calling my deck slow and then saying Martyr-proc is faster? That makes NO sense.
Ranger of Eos is not card advantage. It's a floppy 4 drop with a 1-shot effect. By the time I start mass drawing with Sky Hussar, I don't need the Ranger. I don't need any 2 specific creatures (much less 1) in order to work effectively. If that was the case you'd see more 4x's and less 3x's and 2x's.
Are you aware that Darksteel Citadel, Springleaf Drum, Mox opal, Cranial Plating, Steel Overseer, just to name a few are ALL blocked by Stony Silence?! this enchant is not aimed at blocking their equips; that's just icing on the cake. Stony Silence brings Affinity's mana curve to a screeching halt. That's enough time for me to recur lifegain en masse, drop (and recur) some fetches, and get an AoS in play to wreck his curve even more.
3 Mind Stone
2 Sword of War and Peace
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
Creatures (20)
4 Kami of False Hope
4 Martyr of Sands
4 Steppe Lynx
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Sun Titan
3 Faith's Reward
4 Second Sunrise
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Lands (24)
12 Plains
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Marsh Flats
3 Arid Mesa
2 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
3 Ghostly Prison
2 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
Additionally, I've found a way to get some sick redundancy at 2 mana. It's Grim Discovery. This allows me to lead turn 1 with a valuable card like Martyr or the Lynx, and intentionally let it be the target of an incoming removal spell. If he's dead by turn 2, I lose nothing out of the deal. I can cast Grim Discovery and get the creature and the land back.This provides the crucial link between land drop #2 and land drop #3.
As for AoS in the main, I am missing it a lot. I feel like the notion to put it in the sb was ill-advised. AoS can break a Twin, Pod, Pyro Ascension, blades, Ghostly Prisons, Wurmcoil Engines, Cranial Platings, and further casting of artifacts. After I post my next build, I'd like to see if someone can work the AoS back in.
Also, I have finally started using Cockatrice as of recent days and I'm enjoying it a lot. The learning curve function-wise was really simple. Plus it saves my replays -- you know what this means... I can actually provide statistics for this deck!
One last thing... I ran into a member of MTGS while on Cockatrice and have been taking some really useful advice from him. It turns out he read the thread before he met me on cockatrice, and even said he wanted to see this deck blossom and develop further as I experience more advanced techniques. I'm really motivated to push this deck far.
I will talk about your last sentence however, because you seem curious about my land thinning. 3 uncracked fetches (or 1 Fetchland and 1 Ghost Quarter) + 1 Sunrise = 3 extra lands (In the case of 1 fetch + 1 GQ its still 3 untapped lands, but you actually only profit 2 lands). You can follow that up with another second sunrise immediately. Eggs doesn't use fetchlands the way I do. I can go off using more than Quarter. There's also Arid Mesa and Marsh Flats.
The only reasons I ever brought up Martyr-Proc were for the situational scenarios that were brought up in these rebuttals. (Though I do truly believe this outpaces Martyr Proc in just about everything it tries to do, sans combat)
As for proving myself, that's not really what I came here to do. I like this deck and will likely use it and continually revise it as I play MtG. What I came here to do was get useful advice, and I got a lot of it already. Feel free to contribute.
Early: Prioritize playing fetchlands, unless a 1-drop is in the opener. Don't crack the fetches unless you need to in order to play a Mind Stone. A Plains-Ghost Quarter lead is optimal. Also, if both Mind Stone and Conjurer's Bauble are in the opener, you can wait until you cast Mind Stone to cast Conjurer's Bauble.
Turn 3/4: You should be ready for your first Sunrise effect. Play from here as you would in my first post.
By turns 4,5, and 6 you should be recycling, drawing and casting Sunrises via the Bauble/Mind Stone/Canopy, gaining life via Martyr/Children, and thinning out your deck with the mass of fetchlands in the deck. If you're all done fetching and have no use for the Ghost Quarter, you can turn GQ into recurrable land domination.
WARNING: Be careful when pairing GQ targetting enemy lands with Second Sunrise. Stack should be as follows:
1) Go ahead and sac the GQ targetting an enemy land.
2) Talk to your opponent, and make sure he knows in advance that you're stacking this and its ability WILL NOT resolve yet.
3) With the ability on the stack, cast Second Sunrise. You get the GQ land back (as well as anything else you may have wanted to sac).
4) GQ's effect resolves, destroying the land that was targetted, and avoiding that land coming back via Sunrise.
Also as it turns out... All the *****ing I did in this thread should be of use to you. In my madness I explained what I can do in some pretty tough matchups.
See bold.
11 Plains
3 Arid Mesa
3 Marsh Flats
2 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Horizon Canopy
Creatures (15)
2 Sun Titan
4 Kami of False Hope
4 Martyr of Sands
1 Felidar Sovereign
2 Children of Korlis
2 Eight-and-a-Half-Tails
4 Second Sunrise
4 Faith's Reward
Sorceries (2)
2 Wrath of God
Artifacts (8)
4 Conjurer's Bauble
4 Mind Stone
Enchantments (3)
3 Ghostly Prison
2 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Stony Silence
2 Worship
2 Aura of Silence
Urborg is added so that the Fetchlands can be tapped for mana without saccing them. This may have functional benefits in that early game mana pinch, as well as late game when the fetchlands lose their purpose.
Should I try Karma with Urborg?
With all the advice I have taken in and used, I think a revised list is overdue for me to show everyone. Who knows, maybe this version will turn some heads with its even faster start.
I know I ***** a lot, but do keep the comments coming. I have a lot of passion for this build so I get snappy sometimes. However, I really do appreciate everything that's come up so far. It's allowed me to take an outside perspective on something I look at almost every 5 seconds.
I suppose I can test the canopy to see what happens. I do have tons of land acceleration so I guess it shouldn't be a problem to include it.
I'm also wrong about the mind stones. I've noticed in practice that the stones and the bauble work REALLY well together (cast a stone, follow up with a bauble cast, and your first sunrise ends up super potent) so I'm considering a 4&4 inclusion of both, removing Wall of Omens.
Give me 5 minutes and I'll paste my build.
1) I have at least 1 Leyline and AoS in play.
2) They Use Echoing Truth.
3) I respond by saccing AoS to bust the leyline that was targetted. That's enough to break them if I have 2 leylines. If I have only 1 or they bust the other I bide my time.
4) They start going off. Just before impact of the first burn spell, restore the Leyline with a Sunrise.
Also bear in mind that most hate against this type of strategy (Relics, LotV, O-rings, etc) are often in Art/enchant form. Having AoS maindeck discourages the use of said hate cards when sideboarding time comes.
Also AoS is gold against pod (the card, not the entire deck). After they pay the steep price to cast it I can sac the AoS and bust the Pod.
Vedalken Shackles is a huge problem, because it's colorless. AoS is great for dealing with it.
Also I feel like you missed a huge host of Artifact creatures, like Tidehollow Sculler, Ethersworn Canonist, Phyrexian metamorph, Wurmcoil engine...
See bold.
Subject necromancy is a sin.
Master of Etherium is easily blockable.
Signal Pest dies to ratchet bomb.
I do not wait for emeria to get my creatures back. I have three outlets for recursion -- SS/FR, Titan, and Emeria.
If I wanted aggro intensive I'd run WW. this isn't WW in the sense that I can ATTACK WHILE DEFENDING (how many times have I said that in this thread?)
I'm not control. 3 ***'s and 3 Paths in a 70-card build is merely enough for an emergency restart if necessary. Late Game *** is paired with FR (said this before too) so I lose nothing from it, in fact I may get extra draws out of it from Omens triggers.
Nothing here is "situational" by any means (I said this before too!). SS and FR can be casted whenever I feel like using them. They're INSTANTS. (and the sacrifice outlets are instant-level as well).
As I said earlier, Martyr-Proc is the slow deck, not me. Where do you get off calling my deck slow and then saying Martyr-proc is faster? That makes NO sense.
Ranger of Eos is not card advantage. It's a floppy 4 drop with a 1-shot effect. By the time I start mass drawing with Sky Hussar, I don't need the Ranger. I don't need any 2 specific creatures (much less 1) in order to work effectively. If that was the case you'd see more 4x's and less 3x's and 2x's.
Are you aware that Darksteel Citadel, Springleaf Drum, Mox opal, Cranial Plating, Steel Overseer, just to name a few are ALL blocked by Stony Silence?! this enchant is not aimed at blocking their equips; that's just icing on the cake. Stony Silence brings Affinity's mana curve to a screeching halt. That's enough time for me to recur lifegain en masse, drop (and recur) some fetches, and get an AoS in play to wreck his curve even more.
Also, where's Broken Ambitions?