So why are those alternatives not so great,
(note that jailer is more or less only for hogaak)
Remorseful Cleric and Ravenous Trap only hit once which isn't good enough for a deck that can't close out games quickly.
Ashiok hits a few times but is at sorcery speed and not being able to search isnt very relevant against hogaak.
Leyline is only good in your opening hand as it is otherwise too slow.
Jailer is able to blank pretty much everything in hogaak from bridge to bloodghasts and the big 8/8 himself until it gets removed. It comes down early and doesn't affect any of our cards. It being a creature is also pretty important since most hogaak decks don't play that much creature removal and it can be tough to deal with 4 plus however many times you unearth it. Most hogaak lists run 3/4 with some of the more recent lists going up to 6 (presumably to deal with jailer) but they don't really have a good way of digging for creature removal and you can clear the way with discard spells.
You ideally want to turn 1 looting and that can get awkward in a deck with 6 mana dorks that you really want to be able to play on turn 1. Faithless looting is negative card advantage and not really worth it unless you utilize your graveyard to offset the loss in card advantage.
Too slow to be in the mainboard and doesn't really offer anything valuable post-board for the same reasons you don't really see any zoo lists post-RNA running it either. This bushwhacker zoo variant is already better at grinding out longer games because of vengevine and gather the pack.
I enjoy the deck and pretty much have the cards so I figured why not. Planning on trying some RNA cards so the list might change by a few cards depending on how I feel. Might cut gather the pack eventually but will need to test. Won't cut superion completely cause then I might as well play a real deck and I still get a kick out of watching people struggle to understand what the card does in FNMs.
I'm still on the original primer list. or at least something close to it. Unfortunately its not really well positioned in the meta. It dies to dredge, UR phoenix, humans and spirits
You still have room for a couple FoR and a good amount of basics. But this is predicated on dropping the double Black spells so any more black and you'll have to shuffle some things around. Hopefully that helps you get started on making a mana base.
Yea I've seen it. I guess in my head I was thinking that 10 would be ok since I wouldn't always be able to cast it on turn 2 (need to play removal, hand disruption etc.) but thats probably not sound deckbuilding. I agree that damnation is probably the first thing to go as it's the only double black card in the list. I haven't really found the time at all to even test the deck so will put it on hold till I can. Appreciate the second opinion though.
As for the blue splash it’s just not viable and you would be changing the whole archetype and curve of the deck.
Awkwardness with mana for the first few turns is definitely the biggest concern for me. It's something that I'd need to properly test but I think the benefit of good consistent card filtering might outweigh it. I don't really agree that it changes the whole archetype though other than it not strictly being a 'b/w deck'. The current idea is to use some of the flex spots for SfA and SfA only.
If you only play 2 shocks and a basic you'll need a lot of fetch lands. You need at least 13 Blue sources to reliably cast SfA. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but it's certainly not trivial on the mana base.
Ashiok is a card I would suggest for a U splash too. She's very powerful and underplayed. with all the board wipes she should be easy to defend.
I think I could get away with 10 or so. Will have to find the time to proxy and test now. Not really sold on ashiok as its a grind engine and grind engines aren't really what the deck needs more of.
So I'm going to preface this by saying that I don't think the LotV build is bad but rather something I'm not interested in playing.
I posted in this thread because I'm still interested in having the same play patterns as the primer (proactive tap-out style of control) and admittedly didn't really take the time to properly elaborate my reasoning. It's nice to be able to bounce ideas off other people that have experience with something similar and I don't see the need to get so defensive. Sure, it might not strictly be a B/W control deck anymore but the goal is that it still plays like one.
With that being said, to further elaborate on my point on countermagic. I don't really want to go down that path as there are no counterspells I'd be interested in playing with only a light blue splash (logic knot, remand, mana leak, cryptic, countersquall etc.). I don't think countermagic is necessarily bad but something I'm not interested making significant cuts for. We then also start going more into the draw-go style of UW/x decks which is it's own thing.
The reason I want to look at search for azcanta is because this deck lacks card selection and not necessarily card advantage. I've jammed with nights whisper for awhile and always found it ranges from decent to outright terrible. We're able to make up for the lack of card draw with our walkers and high value spells but oftentimes don't draw them or draw the wrong one. It's led to a lot of situations where we either are unable to establish our board or close the game out when ahead. I believe Zyrnak tested Treasure Map recognizing this issue but I don't think it's good enough for modern. SoA gives us card selection to help establish our board and when it flips it allows us to dig for cards to close the game. I also feel like we have enough dead cards for each matchup in the mainboard for us to not really care about pitching things to the grave.
Splashing blue for only 2 cards in the main and maybe 3-5 in the sideboard allows us to keep field of ruin and maintain a fairly resilient manabase. It also gives us access to negate in the side which I think the deck would greatly benefit from. I'll need to find the time to draft up a list but it'd be something like what todd stevens played on mtgo with 2 blue shocks and cuts to removal and/or walkers.
Been on the more control-centric version for awhile now (big walkers over LotV similar to some of the original lists). I've been thinking a lot about lightly splashing blue mainly for search for azcanta and sideboard cards. I've always felt like the control-shell would greatly benefit from azcanta even if it doesn't flip for awhile. It's temping to jam blue cantrips and countermagic as well but I've never really found that to synergize well with hand disruption.
Not sure if anyone has considered/tried this here before but would like to hear other people's opinion on this.
At 3 mana it's a bit high for what this deck is trying to do. If you do find a slot for it, it would be a 2 of at most since you want to see this card when you need more gas. I've been playing around with a non-souls version with this format getting faster so maybe take out two souls and add those?
Do you have a decklist anywhere I could see? I'm still in the process of getting all the cards together/deciding on my 75. At the moment I'm trying to make a list without goyfs as I can't afford them. Was thinking of just putting buglers or other beaters for the time being till I can get my playset.
Haven't really played around with the deck so not sure about cutting souls. At first glance they seem necessary for the midrange matchups though.
Do you think Militia Bugler is worth testing? It grabs pretty much everything in the deck and might be good in 1-2 copies. I'm not sure what I'd cut for it and whether or not it fits with the overall game plan though
Wins were against lantern and mardu and lost in 3 to jund. Still playing around with the sideboard a bit. Currently liking the surgicals a lot and the shaper's sanctuary against grindy matchups like jeskai control and mardu pyromancer which struggle a lot when all of your creatures essentially replace themselves. Still not sure about ghor-clan and atarkas command. They're not bad but I'm not sure if they're the best use of sideboard slots at the moment.
I also am not sure how much I miss blood moon in the side. I don't feel like its too great in the current meta as it really only hits humans and I feel like its a fine matchup anyways as long as they dont vomit out a bunch of champions and lieutenants before turn 3. Against tron I'd much rather just increase the clock with cards like ghor-clan and atarka's command. It's ok against abzan and jund but I play them often enough to justify putting them in the sideboard.
Nonetheless, I still have a lot of fun playing this and wouldn't mind taking it to a PPTQ for *****s and giggles. You can still pull out some crazy wins in terrible matchups by drawing well and ultimately this deck's biggest problem is still consistency. I don't really see myself ever retiring this deck since its become my go to when I show up to an event and feel like having a good time.
Bloodbraid isn't very good in this build (referring to OP). There were a few lists that popped up here and there from the early days of modern that played bloodbraid and vengevine in a naya midrange shell. Unfortunately I don't think it's really worth it as it's too slow for minimal payoff. There are better ways of flooding the board with creatures than BBE
The 4 bolts is usually enough for most matchups and you dont need your removal to synergize with your deck. I board in roasts for matchups where i have difficulty punching through fat blockers and for storm/counters company. Personally I haven't found lightning axe to be that great as I'm usually tight on cards in matchups where extra removal comes in. I also find ghor-clan rampager to be decent pseuodo-removal.
That being said, counters company is simply just a terrible matchup as they can flood the board with chump blockers and have the potential to combo out really fast. Post-board I board in cards to increase my clock and rely on trample to punch through.
So why are those alternatives not so great,
(note that jailer is more or less only for hogaak)
Remorseful Cleric and Ravenous Trap only hit once which isn't good enough for a deck that can't close out games quickly.
Ashiok hits a few times but is at sorcery speed and not being able to search isnt very relevant against hogaak.
Leyline is only good in your opening hand as it is otherwise too slow.
Jailer is able to blank pretty much everything in hogaak from bridge to bloodghasts and the big 8/8 himself until it gets removed. It comes down early and doesn't affect any of our cards. It being a creature is also pretty important since most hogaak decks don't play that much creature removal and it can be tough to deal with 4 plus however many times you unearth it. Most hogaak lists run 3/4 with some of the more recent lists going up to 6 (presumably to deal with jailer) but they don't really have a good way of digging for creature removal and you can clear the way with discard spells.
https://www.reddit.com/r/EldraziMTG/comments/ank9uw/rg_eldrazi/efudjrs/
Moving forward will probably test this list:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1567259#paper
I enjoy the deck and pretty much have the cards so I figured why not. Planning on trying some RNA cards so the list might change by a few cards depending on how I feel. Might cut gather the pack eventually but will need to test. Won't cut superion completely cause then I might as well play a real deck and I still get a kick out of watching people struggle to understand what the card does in FNMs.
I'm still on the original primer list. or at least something close to it. Unfortunately its not really well positioned in the meta. It dies to dredge, UR phoenix, humans and spirits
Yea I've seen it. I guess in my head I was thinking that 10 would be ok since I wouldn't always be able to cast it on turn 2 (need to play removal, hand disruption etc.) but thats probably not sound deckbuilding. I agree that damnation is probably the first thing to go as it's the only double black card in the list. I haven't really found the time at all to even test the deck so will put it on hold till I can. Appreciate the second opinion though.
Awkwardness with mana for the first few turns is definitely the biggest concern for me. It's something that I'd need to properly test but I think the benefit of good consistent card filtering might outweigh it. I don't really agree that it changes the whole archetype though other than it not strictly being a 'b/w deck'. The current idea is to use some of the flex spots for SfA and SfA only.
I think I could get away with 10 or so. Will have to find the time to proxy and test now. Not really sold on ashiok as its a grind engine and grind engines aren't really what the deck needs more of.
I posted in this thread because I'm still interested in having the same play patterns as the primer (proactive tap-out style of control) and admittedly didn't really take the time to properly elaborate my reasoning. It's nice to be able to bounce ideas off other people that have experience with something similar and I don't see the need to get so defensive. Sure, it might not strictly be a B/W control deck anymore but the goal is that it still plays like one.
With that being said, to further elaborate on my point on countermagic. I don't really want to go down that path as there are no counterspells I'd be interested in playing with only a light blue splash (logic knot, remand, mana leak, cryptic, countersquall etc.). I don't think countermagic is necessarily bad but something I'm not interested making significant cuts for. We then also start going more into the draw-go style of UW/x decks which is it's own thing.
The reason I want to look at search for azcanta is because this deck lacks card selection and not necessarily card advantage. I've jammed with nights whisper for awhile and always found it ranges from decent to outright terrible. We're able to make up for the lack of card draw with our walkers and high value spells but oftentimes don't draw them or draw the wrong one. It's led to a lot of situations where we either are unable to establish our board or close the game out when ahead. I believe Zyrnak tested Treasure Map recognizing this issue but I don't think it's good enough for modern. SoA gives us card selection to help establish our board and when it flips it allows us to dig for cards to close the game. I also feel like we have enough dead cards for each matchup in the mainboard for us to not really care about pitching things to the grave.
Splashing blue for only 2 cards in the main and maybe 3-5 in the sideboard allows us to keep field of ruin and maintain a fairly resilient manabase. It also gives us access to negate in the side which I think the deck would greatly benefit from. I'll need to find the time to draft up a list but it'd be something like what todd stevens played on mtgo with 2 blue shocks and cuts to removal and/or walkers.
Appreciate the input you guys have given already.
Not sure if anyone has considered/tried this here before but would like to hear other people's opinion on this.
Do you have a decklist anywhere I could see? I'm still in the process of getting all the cards together/deciding on my 75. At the moment I'm trying to make a list without goyfs as I can't afford them. Was thinking of just putting buglers or other beaters for the time being till I can get my playset.
Haven't really played around with the deck so not sure about cutting souls. At first glance they seem necessary for the midrange matchups though.
Do you think Militia Bugler is worth testing? It grabs pretty much everything in the deck and might be good in 1-2 copies. I'm not sure what I'd cut for it and whether or not it fits with the overall game plan though
Went 2-1 in an FNM-level event at a fairly competitive LGS using this list:
https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/07-08-17-Djy-rg-vengevine/?cb=1532611718
Wins were against lantern and mardu and lost in 3 to jund. Still playing around with the sideboard a bit. Currently liking the surgicals a lot and the shaper's sanctuary against grindy matchups like jeskai control and mardu pyromancer which struggle a lot when all of your creatures essentially replace themselves. Still not sure about ghor-clan and atarkas command. They're not bad but I'm not sure if they're the best use of sideboard slots at the moment.
I also am not sure how much I miss blood moon in the side. I don't feel like its too great in the current meta as it really only hits humans and I feel like its a fine matchup anyways as long as they dont vomit out a bunch of champions and lieutenants before turn 3. Against tron I'd much rather just increase the clock with cards like ghor-clan and atarka's command. It's ok against abzan and jund but I play them often enough to justify putting them in the sideboard.
Nonetheless, I still have a lot of fun playing this and wouldn't mind taking it to a PPTQ for *****s and giggles. You can still pull out some crazy wins in terrible matchups by drawing well and ultimately this deck's biggest problem is still consistency. I don't really see myself ever retiring this deck since its become my go to when I show up to an event and feel like having a good time.
That being said, counters company is simply just a terrible matchup as they can flood the board with chump blockers and have the potential to combo out really fast. Post-board I board in cards to increase my clock and rely on trample to punch through.