MTG Salvation

How do you plan on activating Windbrisk Heights with only islands and halimar depths? With other Windbrisk Heights, lol? I'd dd a few UW fixing land if you want to keep this strategy.

Quote from Burnardough

This is wrong. If you go look at Kiki-Jiki and Splinter Twin, you will notice that they have to be sacrificed at the next end step. So it does kill the Twin Combo.

No. They can use twin/kiki at the end of YOUR turn, AFTER the "beginning of end step" trigger. They will have to sac/exile the tokens at the beginning of the NEXT end step, meaning at the end of THEIR turn. They will still get to attack with their tokens on their turn.

The rules:


513. End Step

513.1. First, all abilities that trigger "at the beginning of the end step" or "at the beginning of the next end step" go on the stack. (See rule 603, "Handling Triggered Abilities.")

513.1a Previously, abilities that trigger at the beginning of the end step were printed with the trigger condition "at end of turn." Cards that were printed with that text have received errata in the Oracle card reference to say "at the beginning of the end step" or "at the beginning of the next end step."

513.2. Second, the active player gets priority. Players may cast spells and activate abilities.

513.3. If a permanent with an ability that triggers "at the beginning of the end step" enters the battlefield during this step, that ability won't trigger until the next turn's end step. Likewise, if a delayed triggered ability that triggers "at the beginning of the next end step" is created during this step, that ability won't trigger until the next turn's end step. In other words, the step doesn't "back up" so those abilities can go on the stack. This rule applies only to triggered abilities; it doesn't apply to continuous effects whose durations say "until end of turn" or "this turn." (See rule 514, "Cleanup Step.")

Wouldn't extirpate help your game plan? It can't be countered and your opponent can't respond to it with deathrite shaman.

I don't understand why anyone would want to play lifelink when spirit link is available. It's basically the same card except for 2 advantages:
-it can be used as pseudo-removal but putting it on an opponent's creature, nullifying non lethal damage,
-unlike the keyword lifelink, multiple spirit links on the same creature stack (since it still uses the old wording).

Balduvian Frostwaker is probably my favorite snow themed creature. You should try it as all your lands are snow. It can be powerful but not so much because if your friends run pyroclasm or any sweeper it's quite dangerous to use. Still, it's a fun card!

Also here is an EPIC match against Pod. After he assembles the infinite life combo I was being salty and figured I'd let him gain life till time ran out...so I didn't concede. But then he stopped around 100. So I figure I'd make him win the game rather than me concede. As the game progresses I realize if I can stabilize with Bridge, I can perhaps win through time. So we durdle back and forth for awhile until I get another Epiphany...maybe I can mill him out this ASHIOK lol. So after a few Tezz activations I cash him in for life points and wait to get a fetchland to hopefully reshuffle Ashiok to the top (since I had bottomed her after a few Tezz +1 activations).
Did I get there???...You'll have to just watch and see lol.

I title this match, when salt turns to sugar lol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pZlCN1rGnE

Ok, taking back my comment on EE. Maybe I've just been dumb / unlucky in my use of it. Yeah, Shackles must be awesome against Delver.

I do win on the back of citadels all the time, however. This holds. Maybe it's my play style. Or my build. It actually totally is: remember, I run just the strict, strict minimum number of artifacts (18). So my Tezz's ult are more an alternate win-con; upon its landing on the battlefield, i do [-1] far more often than anything else.

Oy. Back from FNM, fun night, finished 2-1.

Round one: Mardu/Dega Modern Aristocrats!!! Had to deal with a bajillion creatures that kept coming back in zombie or spirit form. Twas kind of overwhelming but thanks to my digging power I could keep up with wraths and targeted removal for the key enablers (Blood artist, Xathrid necromancer, Skirsdagh high priest) and Vendillion Clique conveniently cycled Lingering souls each game. Finished right on time after stabilizing at scarily low life total. Creeping tar pit equipped with Batterskull (under the token army) FTW. 2-0.

Round two: Boggles! First game, I'm on the play. Tapped land, go. He opens with a t1 Boggle. I giggle, drop a second land and Spellskite FTW. No! He has a maindeck Nature's claim!¡! Aura, swing, draw, pass, aura, aura, aura, swing: I'm dead. Wtf just happened? lol he indeed runs one NC maindeck and had it in hand. Game two and three I crush him like we do: IoK into Lili into Spellskite, or countermagic everything until his hand is empty. 8-minutes round. 2-1.

Round three: Pod. Not Melira. Angel? I'll call it Rhino Pod. Very good player. I basically got stomped by Siege Rhino both games. First game he's on the start. Basically, we trade one for one until he hardcasts a Siege Rhino on t4, which dodges IoK while in hand, dodges Executioner's capsule, Smother, Slaugther pact and Explosives on the field, and survives a Vendillion block. I'm like

After he smashes face, he then casts a Finks that he pods for another Rhino, and then pods again for a Restoration angel to blink said Rhino -- drains me down to zero within a turn. I had successfully landed a Batterskull by then, but never have i seen such an irrelevant Batterskull: Pod player was going wider, could still fly over, his rhinos would still have survived the hypothetical block, and he could inflict direct damage in blinking the Rhino anyways.

Game two: more or less the same story. I deal with all the dorks and finks and feel pretty much in control until he lands a Rhino. I dig for a wrath; none. I'm stuck, unable to deal with the massive trampler. Pod was also online, so he ended up drawing into some dork that he podded into Reclamation sage that reclaimed the death of my freshly cast Batterskull, into another Rhino. It was as overwhelming as it sounds, ridiculous. 0-2.

Well, 2-1 overall, fun night. Deck ran smoothly, mana-base was clutch, Thirst for Knowledge gave me awesome draws. I only had too little to deal with Siege Rhinos. Maybe some Dismembers, I will consider. And put a Needle back in for the pod, ha.

Anyways, Rhino Pod and Tezz battled an extra couple of times just for kicks and I got trampled once more by huge desert mammals, then Spike feeder - Angel combo'ed in the face. But all is not lost: a. I found out that going all-in on the early Tezz and making a 5/5 out of whatever, even if it means your Tezz is going to die to some finks beat in the process, is how you keep Rhinos at bay; and b. It was the first time i saw the angel combo in action. I could've cast Damnation the turn before, but using my board wipe only to remove a single Angel didn't seem like the right move at the time. Oh how wrong was I.

Gotta learn.

@Ace1: I also get behind powerful two of's in our deck because of the so much digging we have. It's like we've kept a bit of the Trinket mage's toolbox aspect, but macro-ed it out. It could be interesting to just plain max out on a couple of cards and see what happens, though. Am currently maxed out on: Tezz (obv.), Thirst for knowledge, Inquisition of Kozilek and Citadels, and I have the option to max out on Damnation from the SB. So these would pretty much define my deck.

@Streetmage: Is there anything particular in your meta that calls for the Needle?

@SirPsychoMantis: SirPM you said you would get serious about testing soon (was that you? Not even sure anymore). Anyways, if that time is now, I'm looking forward to results and reports.

Lastly, @MasterQuestMaster has brought a very good question to the table: what's up with the primer's lists? After the recent meta-shift and change-heavy period, I think we should now update our list samples. Some lists (like the Pox deck) have two sample lists, I suggest for everything we really just keep one flag list (in a «less is more» fashion). I also suggest we narrow the list (of lists) down to what we really consider the archetypes. We don't need to keep everything that's been seen here sometime, but we should get behind what's been played, supported and sustained.

An attempt to categorize stuff better. Off the top of my head, and looking at the primer's first page now, we have:

a. Shoota's Manland Aggro build.
b. SirPsychoMantis AND Ace's UB Bridge build (pick one flag list?).
c. Raystack's Polymorph build (an evolution of Shoota's build, isn't it? Is this a category, or more of a card package that could be shown in the card selection section of the primer. What do you think Ray?)
d. Streetmage and Radouf's TezzPox lists. You can take my list out, I really don't mind.
e. Ripptor's Grixis epic ramp list.
f. Sasky's BUg's list from december 2013. What's up with that? If I recall well, SirPsychoMantis, you were our last long-time BUG player, weren't you? How different was your list and do you consider it or the green splash functionnal and worthy of a primer sample spot?
g. Rahzark's Esper TezzeWrath from january 2014. Ssup with that too? Note we've also had my Esper TezzSouls list that was more aggro-oriented, but none of these builds have been sustained.
h. Nowhere to be seen is Ace's Mishra Grixis build.
i. I believe the BlueTezz list I run could deserve a spot, because we don't have a straight non-bridge UB control sample on here.
j. There's also no Shackles list shown on the primer.

[For reference, BlueTezz. And Yes, still shackles-less even after all the maths-work. I'm not sure I feel it. Ya know]

Just putting this out here:

Agony warp, against say Countercats with a flipped Delver and a Nacatl on the field, gives us exactly the value of a Lightning helix. Wow. And it's much more flexible, and would synergize very well with Shackles and Disfigure.

Same against A Delver and Pyromancer. Or a Goyf. And almost the same against double Goblin guides. This might just be very good and relevant in match-ups where we struggle. #UBHelix

Scary stuff indeed haha. Thanks for the walk-through.

Here are the results:

Odds of having 3 islands by turn 4 (on the play/10 card seen), if you are running
12 islands: 32%
13 islands: 37%
14 islands: 43%
15 islands: 48%
16 islands: 53%
17 islands: 59%

Just for kicks, let's t4 do on the draw (11 cards seen):
12 islands: 38%
13 islands: 44%
14 islands: 50%
15 islands: 56%
16 islands: 61%
17 islands: 66%

And, lastly, let's see what happens if you get to resolve a Thirst for knowledge after untapping on your turn 4.
12 islands: 57%
13 islands: 64%
14 islands: 70%
15 islands: 75%
16 islands: 80%
17 islands: 84%

Also, for those of you who have been running them Shackles, how often are they «the stabilizing power» vs. the bomb you cast AFTER having stabilized (with, say, Damnation)? 'Cause it kind of does both. It's maybe not all about speed.

EDIT: Adding, from Dr. Hardkorr, so it's all here:

[islands in deck] - [probability for 3 islands by turn 5 (on the play)] - [net change]
10 - 26% -
11 - 32% - +6
12 - 38% - +6
13 - 44% - +6
14 - 50% - +6
15 - 56% - +6
16 - 61% - +5
17 - 66% - +5

Quote from hardKOrr »

Find a HyperGeometric Calculator (sounds scary... isnt : http://stattrek.com/online-calculator/hypergeometric.aspx)
Population Size = Number of cards in deck (60 for constructed, 40 for limited, 99 or w/e for commander)
Number of successes in population = The number of the specific card you are looking for thats in your deck (so for this instance number of islands)
Sample size = Number of cards you've seen (so turn 1 is 7 cards (normal opening hand), turn 2 is 8, etc, etc) [This is where you can throw in additional draw]
Number of successes in sample = The number of the specific card you are hoping to find (so the number of islands)

So for what I entered from above (turn 5, chance for 3 islands)
Population Size = 60
Number of successes in population = 10 (I ran multiple numbers, so this is where I put in 11, 12, 13, etc)
Sample size = 11 (7 card + 4 draws = turn 5)
Number of successes in sample = 3 (the number of islands we are looking for)

The only "answer" that we care about is the >= answer (greater than or equal to)... because we are looking for AT LEAST 3 islands. Which in this case is : 26%

Quote from radouf »

Hey guys. Vedalken Shackles is getting praised left and right, here and on Reddit. And it's also stealing top-finishes so, I'm looking to tweak my UB list to fit it in. I'm trying to make Blue-Tezz blue-er!

However, I'm concerned about the minimum number of islands needed to enable the thing. I know I can fit 12.5 islands in (counting blue fetches) rather easily. Would that be enough? I know Ace you're running more, but have you tested what the minimum would be? I can't see myself dropping the Citadel count, really.

Now, this list comes with a big question mark. Here's my proposal:

DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Mana 3 Creeping Tar Pit 1 Academy Ruins 1 Ghost Quarter 4 Darksteel Citadel 4 Polluted Delta 4 Watery Grave 4 Island 1 Swamp 1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth	4 Dimir Signet 1 Talisman of Dominance Goodstuff 4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas 2 Batterskull 2 Vedalken shackles Cards 1 Dig through time 4 Thirst for Knowledge Disrupt 2 Vendilion Clique 2 Executioner's Capsule 1 Slaughter Pact 2 Smother 4 Inquisition of Kozilek 1 Thoughtseize	Sweeps 2 Damnation 2 Engineered Explosives Ute 2 Spellskite 1 Nihil Spellbomb

Changes / Concerns:
1. Darkslick shores would obviously go the way of the binder. Full set of Watery graves and Deltas means I'm gonna take some damage. How can I make up for it? Thoughtseize and Talisman of dominance appear as semi-flex slots now, and costing me some life.

2. Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and the last Ghost quarter could also become islands (= 14. Though GQ gives us situational access (hence the 0.5!) to an island, because of the full set of Citadel). Singleton GQ seems really important to get rid of Gavony Townships and manlands, so I'm really reluctant on taking it out. Also, I'm worried that if I take Urborg out, I might not be able to cast Damnation in time, somtimes.

3. I'm very concerned by the Tron match-up. Though I don't see it often, I feel really vulnerable to it right now, running so little land destruction. I figure, there must be other ways to beat them than with the Ghost Quarter medicine. How?

Cheeeeeeers.

If you want Vedalken Shackles in your deck, you have to ask yourself a few questions. What stage in the game do I want to draw and cast Shackles? What decks do I want the card against? How big are that deck's creatures? You have quite a few ways to find the artifact, so 2 is probably where you want to be if you're aiming for heavy Shackles reliance. It seems like the magic number for creature power is 3 (Nacatl, Finks, Pyromancer, Delver, etc.). Slaving Goyf would be nice, but against your Tezz deck he's 5/6, so let's not focus on bringing enough Island to get him reliably; just run other Goyf hate like Slaughter Pact, Capsule, Smother, or even Deathmark from the sideboard (which also kills... wait for it... SIEGE RHINO!).

Next, we should look at the decks that already run Vedalken Shackles. The only one I can think of is RUG Delver (the classical midrange-y list, not the Pyromancer list that won GP Madrid!). They run 8 Fetches and 7 Islands, so 15; since you're ramping into Thirst for Knowledge + IOK --> Shackles + activate with Signets, and drawing some lands this way, I'd say to try 12 Islands. That lets you run a Ghost Quarter for the Tron matchup, and if that becomes problematic, I personally think you can even cut a 4th Citadel for another one. That said I don't see Tron getting a lot of representation in the next month or so thanks to Delver and Pod.

On damage: 1 Thoughtseize won't deal you that much damage, and I like the 4-1 split with IOK. I'd cut a pair of Watery for Blue Fetches, though, and add a second Dig Through Time (maybe for the Talisman).

FNM report: 2-0-1.

Round one: My first seven was 6 colored spells and the singleton Ghost quarter that's left in my deck. Me to myself: "Are you f*cking kidding me?" Anyhow, mono-black vampires. 2-0. Note: I drew nice hands from there on. In fact: so much colored mana!!

Round two: 8-Rack splash red. Tight player. Tied 1-1: super interesting games and results; this is a deck & pilot that crushed me (hard) the last time I played against it a couple of months back, not with TezzSouls (UBW), but in the TezzPox period, when we ran Trinket mages and our own mini-Rack plan.

This time, it went much better. Game 1 was: my IoK, his IoK, my Thoughtseize, his Wrench mind [discard artifact], then his Liliana + Bridge, that he rode on topdeck mode while I was pitching everything to the grave in order to keep the Dig through time I had in my opener. I managed to cast Spellskite, which he edicted. He drew a Rack, I Dag trough time: Tezz + Engineered explosives. Blow the rack up, land Tezz and -4 shortafter to drain him 10 life. Then we raced our planeswalkers up, he was after a Lili-ultimate while my next Tezz ultimate would prove lethal. It's my turn: tick Tezz up to four loyalty. His turn: topdecks. Ticks Liliana up to six. Casts the top-decked card: the Rack. Damage on my upkeep brought Tezz's loyalty back down and he ended up winning in like 15 turns after that clutch, clutch top-deck. Oh yeah, ugly moment: I drew an Academy Ruins a couple of turns later. Then he Lili-ultimated. Then I said "Ok", and went to activate the Academy Ruins in response (to put Explosives back on top to get rid of the Rack, that was keeping my third Tezz struggling). But I already had said "Ok". "Ok". "Ok." Oh, well. I let it go, 'cause he was right. I had "said" "Ok", even if I didn't mean that kind of "Ok". So the deck didn't really lose that one. My big mouth did. Enjoying the newbie-town ride. 0-1.

Second game: I side-in my counterspell suite. Even though he gets tons of value off Waste not and some red CMC-1 Wheel effect spell he casts twice, I resolve a Thirst that puts me ahead in card advantage and gives me a Negate that counters a Liliana. I draw into Dig through time for Tezz and Glen-Elendra (yeah, she's here). Citadel beatdown + Elendra backup seals the deal. 1-1.

Third game: I aggro him out with Clique and Tar pit while he chips at me with one, then two Mutavaults. He lands a Lili and she makes the faeries go away. I Smother one of his manlands. I keep bashing with Tar pit while he strips both our hands but Im holding on to a Negate, now with mana up. I see a window of opportunity and throw Tar pit at Lili -- my clock will still be faster than his if I use my attack to get rid of Lili. Played "safe". But time is called. Game one had lasted forever, indeed. After turn 5 is played (his), he lives at five, and Im at eight. I have two negates and mana up + Tar pit beat available. I would've pulled this one off.

Overall, BlueTezz (hey, here's a name) had total game against that guy, which was not the case in the prior iterations of the deck. Before, IoK and Thoughtseize on me were backbreaking. But now, thanks to Thirst and Dig, I can switch gears out of nowhere and catch-up, and play a dedicated flash game with counterspells backup all the time. Loved it. Even though I didn't technically win this match, it was a win for me. Only sucks that it's the wrong stacking of my words and actions that cost me the points. I'll work on that.

Round 3: RW Burn. 2-0. omg. Game one: Im on the play. Between multiple IoKs and Spellskite into Batterskull, it's a very sad burn player that was sitting accross the table. Game 2: IoK, Sun droplet, signet + Spellskite, Batterskull. Living the dream. Sun droplet works pretty well. It may not keep up with a triple Goblin guide opening like I saw last week, but it buys us considerable time. 2-0-1. Cheers.

@Yoshi: «Man, with all honest, you guys cant afford passing on Damnation and Thirst. Its like playing the deck without Tezzeret.» This is not rational.

Your attitude is offensive, dude. I'm not saying that what you're saying makes no sense, card-choice-wise. But you getting upset at things getting uninteresting or players not being MAN ENOUGH (what?) to put 150.00$ on three piece of cardboards while they're happy with their Black sun's zenith or EE is not friendly nor healthy nor very constructive criticism. We've heard your point. Maybe we find no harm in brainstorming around and being cautious in card choices because of monetary constraints. I value your opinion on cards, but you're in no place to judge people. This is not your personal thread. So with all due respect, maybe yeah, going for a rest and chill down is the right thing you should do.

Cards:
Basilisk Collar: this is my fetchable-trinket version of wurmcoil engine (which I don't run). It has pissed off many players so far by helping to stall the board (deathtouch chump-blocking) or even breaking out of an even board. Stick that onto a 5/5 indestructible Citadel and go to town. I know it's one of the cutest cards in my build and will probably come off sometimes, but for now it's something I figured I'd test since noone runs it here.
Elixir of immortality: easy trinket lifegain. Gaining 5 life is not negligible, when you need it. I don't know, I like it so far. It's not one of the cards Im unsure of. Could probably put it in the sideboard.
Trinket mage: what's wrong with my 4th Trinket mage? The «Only reference we have got which is actual doable and capable of winning a real life tournament. Against REAl decks!» runs 4 as well.
Rings of Brighthearth is staying for now, and I'm very sure about this.
Trading post might go to the sideboard for slower match ups where it's most likely to get grindy. Again, I found the recursion and card draw this provides (and synergy with Rings) very good.

Ace: Totally agreed, you just summed up my feeling on Thirst for knowledge in the most efficient way: the tempo loss bugs me, since we're already slow. We have heaps of card advantage and card that replace themselves. But we ain't got tempo aplenty. We're a slow moving machine.