We've tried this, and it doesn't work. D&T has an enormous number of flex slots. In fact, D&T has so many flex slots, that WB D&T literally absorbed the Eldrazi builds without changing the core.Quote from LtGlitter »If the current "standard" deck list for D&T is so different than what is posted on the front page, then its probably time to retire this primer and have someone make a new one.
The last time the primer post was updated, we made a conscious decision to leave out many of the lower-tier splashes, despite the fact that many people in the thread kept asking for more information about them. Even today, we still get people wandering into this thread wondering if they can make WU D&T work. The primer post was updated, but remained focused on mono-white to keep a clean appearance for newcomers.
It's possible that we should update the primer to reflect the Eldrazi variants, but if we do, it's only because they're competitive and popular at the moment. If someone were suddenly successful with a WR list, it wouldn't immediately cause us to update the primer.
I guess my point is that this thread is always walking the line between "informative" and "competitive". If the purpose of the primer post is to inform, then we're not doing our job. But if the purpose of the primer post is to instruct new players how to make a competitive deck, then we're doing what we can, especially given the rapid changes in the metagame.
Your deck is definitely D&T, and you belong in this thread.Quote from Ace1 »Well, i don't know if my deck is still 100% "death and taxes". It is based on the pre-eldrazi b/w deck (just after battle), with a splash of green for oath of nissa, scavenging ooze, siege rhino and a few cards in the sideboard.
I do think the philosophy is still somewhat similar, flickerwisp tricks, vial tricks with value creatures, gaining small incremental advantages that add up to the victory. The main difference is my mana denial plan is not the centerpiece of the deck, but i still run thalia, guardian of thraben + tectonic edge...
The thing is i don't really know where i would post my stuff if not here. I don't think i would start a thread specifically for my version, there are all kinds of different lists (we have all the splashes and a lot of different card choices) here and we can all share our feedback on the same thread, which is useful and completely fine by me.
If you guys want me to stop posting here i will. It would be a shame because i've gotten useful feedback here to help improve my list.
Here's a quick overview of your deck:
Do you run Æther Vial? Yes.
Do you run Thalia and/or Arbiter? Yes.
Do you run "enters the battlefield" effects? Yes.
Do you run flicker effects? Yes.
I'm missing the part where your deck doesn't qualify as D&T.
I've built all kinds of wacky versions of this deck, including: WU, WR, Bant, Junk (Abzan), Naya, and Dega (Mardu). Your deck is a D&T variant. Don't worry about it.
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Same list:
3 hangarback walker
1 walking ballista
4 glint-nest crane
2 scrap trawler
2 trinket mage
2 herald of anguish
Artifacts: 14
1 engineered explosives
2 pithing needle
2 nihil spellbomb
2 executioner's capsule
4 thopter foundry
2 sword of the meek
1 ratchet bomb
4 fatal push
sorceries: 2
2 damnation
planeswalkers: 2
2 Tezzeret, agent of bolas
Lands: 24
4 polluted delta
3 bloodstained mire
2 watery grave
1 godless shrine
3 swamp
1 island
3 drowned catacomb
1 Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth
1 inventors' fair
1 academy ruins
4 darksteel citadel
2 echoing truth
4 duress
2 battle at the bridge
2 quicksilver fountain
1 hope of ghirapur
1 grafdigger's cage
1 basilisk collar
1 nihil spellbomb
1 welding jar
R1 win 2-0 vs 8-rack. Man that matchup felt easy. Card selection, engineered explosives, life gain, all good!
R2 win 2-0 vs storm. No more pyromancer ascension means nihil spellbomb G1 is gold. G2 my opponent got stuck on lands, which allowed me to trinket mage for hate, slow down the game and win.
R3 win 2-1 vs scapeshift. Man that matchup felt hard. Was very lucky to win. G1 got crushed because i had zero interaction. G2 was won with the classic jedi mind trick with pithing needle: my opponent had 2 sakura-tribe elders and did not crack them after i asked him if he wanted to respond to the needle. G3 opponent kept a no green mana hand. Duress from the sideboard turn 1 took a lone scapeshift. Opponent was very slow to draw green producing lands. Both G2 and 3 i won off off tezzeret minus ones, and i won because of 5/5 darksteel citadels blanking opposing ancient grudges.
R4 win 2-1 vs burn. G1 opponent got the nuts. G2 turning point was when i EE on one getting a nice 3 for 1. Got to ult tezz for non lethal just to gain life. G3 opponent drew 2 lands too many, game was real close. Thopter foundry was good at making destructive revelry fizzle. Both G2 and 3 herald of anguish got the job done since burn has no way to kill him.
Still haven't faced tron yet. Deck still felt good and grindy.
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Those matches we had we epic, really enjoyed them!
So mini-report time
R1 2-0 vs grixis control (the same guy radouf beat round 2): G1 my opponent had zero pressure, and i was able to chip life points with glint-nest cranes and thopter tokens. G2 was a lot closer. Things turned in my favor when i landed herald of anguish and started the beat down, facing down tasigur, the golden fang. Going into time i make a mistake by making a bunch of tokens with thopter sword while knowing my opponent had vandalblast. The life gain was enough to put me out of reach of the swingback but if my opponent had any burn spell i was dead. But he didn't...
R2 2-0 vs bant company (with a bunch of value creatures): Don't remember the details but games weren't very close, i just had the answers and pressure needed to close the games.
R3 2-0 vs Radouf's tezzerator: very long games, but G1 we both had a bunch of stuff, i got tezz and made a darksteel citadel 5/5. Then radouf got tezz and made a NON indestructible 5/5. I damnation then kill tezz. He tezz again and kills my tezz with another 5/5. I then kill tezz again after Radouf's non indestructible 5/5 chumps. Later i got the combo online facing bridge and a bunch of welding jars. I eventually got ratchet bomb to 3 and engineered explosives on zero to kill the jars then the bridges, clearing the path for my thopters.
G2 was awesome. Radouf starts with expedition map, mishra's bauble and mox opal. I start with pithing needle on map, which turned out great. Radouf had to burn an extra opal to play vendilion clique on himself, which turned out pretty bad when i played my glint-nest crane. Then we began needling our stuff and to board was stalled, but Radouf had ensnaring bridge, crucible of worlds + ghost quarter + inventor's fair, needle on my ratchet bomb and a couple of welding jars. Luckily my deck features 3 swamps and one island plus the 3 darksteel citadels i had, which made me survive GQ for a few turn, until i got a second needle on ghost quarter to not get strip mined to death. I eventually drew the combo and started making tokens, plus i got herald. I made the mistake of EE for one: Radouf's jars saved the needle on bomb, but i lost my needles... And then i topdeck echoing truth, bounced the bridges and attacked for the win!
R4 win 2-1 vs knightfall bant CoCo. G1 i got the answers for everything, nihil spellbomb keep knight of the reliquary in check. G2 my opponent stony silenced me and spell quellered my damnation. I was able to make some token by echoing truthing the stony end step but that wasn't enough, queller was guarding the sky and a bunch of tireless tracker beat me down, they were able to grow after i bouned stony, allowing my opponent to crack his clues. G3 no stony from my opponent. He got to a board of triple 3 drops and a selfless spirit. I got explosives on 3 (thanks to godless shrine x1) followed by needle on spirit, allowing me to crack explosives for profit. Then we stalled a bit and i got herald of anguish, which cleared away all opposing threats with the help of an hangarback walker on 3, and then beat my opponent to death.
Yay, fun times!
My current list:
3 hangarback walker
1 walking ballista
4 glint-nest crane
2 scrap trawler
2 trinket mage
2 herald of anguish
Artifacts: 14
1 engineered explosives
2 pithing needle
2 nihil spellbomb
2 executioner's capsule
4 thopter foundry
2 sword of the meek
1 ratchet bomb
4 fatal push
sorceries: 2
2 damnation
planeswalkers: 2
2 tezzeret, agent of bolas
Lands: 24
4 polluted delta
3 bloodstained mire
2 watery grave
1 godless shrine
1 island
3 swamp
3 drowned catacomb
1 Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth
1 inventors' fair
1 academy ruins
4 darksteel citadel
4 duress
2 battle at the bridge
2 echoing truth
2 quicksilver fountain
2 grafdigger's cage
1 hope of ghirapur
1 basilisk collar
1 welding jar
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A few things to note:
I don't think you want the full 4 plague belcher, the card does come with a drawback. I've been playing spirits and one issue is getting 3 drop flooded. Curving out properly is very important aspect for these type of decks, your deck lacks quality 2 drops.
Also mortarpod is pretty bad, paying 2 for each sac is super clunky! The one and only reason i could see it being worth it is playing death baron instead of some other 3 drops. You see the one thing that makes mortarpod unique is it is worded in a way that makes the equipped creature deals the damage. This means if that creature has deathtouch, the effect will remember that, making it kill anything.
Geth's verdict is a strange choice. You usually want to target with your removal. Liliana of the veil's edict is fine because it can be repeated, and combined with her plus she can take over the game.
Phantasmal image is another strange choice. I can see the value, again, from playing spirits. Copying a lord or anything is sweet, but in spirit the hexproof negates the drawback. I just don't see it being that good since you get zero value copying your one drop, once image hits the grave it does nothing.
Phyrexian obliterator is ambitious, usually it goes with at least one copy of urborg, tomb of yawgmoth, because these two cavern of souls and the singleton island are gonna mess with your ability to cast it. Also obliterator is usually featured with eldritch evolution (which by the way i think is better than CoCo for zombies) or with gray merchant of asphodel. Your deck has none of that so i don't see the point of it.
Last your sideboard is also odd. What do you care so much about for running 4 leyline of sanctity (that you can't even cast if topdecked)? We aren't combo, we can take the discard spells. Also why so much graveyard hate, and why choose leyline of the void along surgical extraction, which both go super poorly together (can't surgical anything under leyline)?
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So for now i'd like to try one of these two lists:
4 inquisition of kozilek
2 dark salvation
instants: 4
4 fatal push
planeswalkers: 2
2 liliana of the veil
creatures: 26
4 cryptbreaker
4 gravecrawler
4 relentless dead
4 wayward servant
2 tidehollow sculler
2 cartel aristocrat
4 geralf's messenger
2 plague belcher
3 cavern of souls
1 Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth
4 concealed courtyard
6 swamp
2 godless shrine
4 polluted delta
2 bloodstained mire
Or
4 inquisition of kozilek
2 dark salvation
instants: 4
4 fatal push
planeswalkers: 2
2 liliana of the veil
creatures: 26
4 cryptbreaker
4 gravecrawler
4 relentless dead
4 wayward servant
2 tidehollow sculler
2 cartel aristocrat
4 diregraf colossus
2 death baron
3 cavern of souls
1 Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth
4 concealed courtyard
6 swamp
2 godless shrine
4 polluted delta
2 bloodstained mire
I think lili strengthens the attrition plan and completes the removal/discard package.
So the only difference between the two decks is the 3 drop zombie. The zombicrats version is focused on reach and more individually strong 3 drops, but it is more vulnerable to graveyard hate. The zombiecalypse list is more focused on going wide and less vulnerable to hate, but relies more on combat to «get there».
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I don't know people's experience with dark salvation but i just love the card. In the b/w version i posted, the strategy is to go as wide as possible, making wayward servant optimal. This is also why i opted for diregraf colossus as my 3 drop of choice. I have 24 zombies to trigger them both, plus another 4x salvation to trigger servant.
I also like the flexibility of the card (dark salvation). I'm very happy to play it for x = 0 when missing land drops, just to kill something small and survive. Late game it can kill nearly anything and i love to topdeck it and turn the tables in my favor just because of the zombies. Creatures + removal on the same card is very strong!
Another aspect of my go wide strategy is to dodge hate. Rest in peace is always good vs us but my version is less destroyed by it. Plague belcher is super awkward vs hate, both because the die triggers can be negated and because you are almost forced to put the counters on itself. Geralf's messenger is also bad vs hate. In my version diregraf colossus and dark salvation don't care much about rip/leyline of the void/etc (sure colossus won't get big, whatev). The upside of belcher/messenger are probably high enough, they are powerful for sure and graveyard strategy are still very strong in modern. But there are pros and cons to each version, and i prefer to take the go wide/not get crushed by hate route.
Nantuko husk is a nice option, probably the only playable zombie sac outlet for now. But i just think the value from blasting station is too high. Having a zombie pump itself is way less powerful than machine gunning creatures or face. I also don't need my sac outlet to eat my whole board the same turn, as you would want to be able to do in plague belcher/diregraf captain/geralf's messenger versions. Station also goes best with diregraf colossus for the option of double gunning down stuff with gravecrawler.
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Also i wanted to point out interesting zombie math: if you have a sac outlet and play turn 3 geralf's messenger into turn 4 plague belcher, the damage output is real. You deal 2 with the first messenger. Then you sac it again for 2 more. Then you play belcher to reset it. Then you sac it again for 2, plus 1 from belcher. Thats 7 life loss, without even counting damage from attacking, and not counting the additional life loss from saccing the last messenger and other zombies you have. Sounds good!
I'm currently brewing a new list to abuse this, but i won't post it until the whole set is revealed.
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3 hangarback walker
1 walking ballista
4 glint-nest crane
3 scrap trawler
1 trinket mage
2 herald of anguish
Artifacts: 14
1 aether spellbomb
1 pithing needle
2 nihil spellbomb
2 executioner's capsule
4 thopter foundry
2 sword of the meek
2 ratchet bomb
4 fatal push
sorceries: 2
2 damnation
planeswalkers: 2
2 tezzeret, agent of bolas
Lands: 24
4 polluted delta
3 bloodstained mire
2 watery grave
1 island
4 swamp
1 Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth
3 drowned catacombs
4 darksteel citadel
1 inventors' fair
1 academy ruins
4 duress
2 battle at the bridge
2 monastery siege
2 echoing truth
1 trinket mage
2 pithing needle
1 grafdigger's cage
1 nihil spellbomb
Yesterday went 3-1, beating bant auras, losing to kiki-chord, then beating melira CoCo and b/w tokens.
Still missing the engineered explosives in ratchet bomb's spot, this costs me a game from time to time which is annoying, i'll try to get them soon...
Just picked up my damnations to compensate no bridge, and get rid of thing my other removal can't. Walking ballista has been pretty good, especially with scrap trawler triggers.
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4 cryptbreaker
4 gravecrawler
4 relentless dead
4 tidehollow sculler
4 diregraf colossus
2 fleshbag marauder
2 Kalitas, traitor of ghet
Sorceries: 8
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 dark salvation
instants: 4
4 fatal push
2 blasting station
lands: 22
1 Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
1 Shizo, death's storehouse
4 swamp
4 concealed courtyard
2 godless shrine
4 bloodstained mire
2 polluted delta
2 cavern of souls
2 mutavault
1 fragmentize
2 collective brutality
2 suffer the past
2 zealous persecution
2 big game hunter
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 stony silence
2 contaminated ground
Monday went 3-1
R1 win 2-0 vs mono black stuff, the guy was getting back into the game and his deck was a pile of stuff he had…
R2 win 2-0 vs u/b delver
R3 loss 1-2 vs abzan hardened scales modular, lost G2-3 because I never drew the 3rd land both games, despite me drawing off of cryptbreaker and both games lasting a long time, frustrating.
R4 win 2-0 vs jeskai nahiri, G1 my opponent was mana screwed, G2 double sculler ripped his hand and my opponent flooded.
Thursday went 3-1
R1 win 2-0 vs CoCo melira combo, my opponent was very unlucky G1 with 2 collected company that gave him a single noble hierarch. G2 I was able to stabilize and blasting station + gravecrawler took down his board
R2 win 2-0 vs scred red, we went on topdeck both games, I was able to deal with all his planeswalker thanks to recurring gravecrawler and dark salvations for a bunch of tokens.
R3 win 2-1 vs eldrazi bant, G1 I lost to eternal witness + eldrazi displacer combo, G2 my opponent kept because he had rest in peace, but was threat light. The card ended up not mattering. G3 I was able to beat worship + rest in peace by turbo drawing removal with cryptbreaker. My opponent made a few bad attacks with reality smashers which allowed me to kill his board faster.
R3 loss 1-2 vs elves, G1 my opponent kept a greedy hand and got punished. G2 I didn't find removal for his ezuri, renegade leader. G3 was close but as I was stabilizing my opponent topdecked collected company for lethal with shaman of the pack.
Really enjoyed the white cards in the sideboard, but i'd go back to mono-black if something similar to sculler but just black was printed. The disruption density is now pretty high and I enjoy it quite a lot.