Moldering Wellspring - 1GG Enchantment
Whenever an opponent casts a spell, you may discard a creature card. If you do, put X 1/1 Saproling creature tokens onto the battlefield, where X is equal to that spell's converted mana cost.
Shaman of Nature's Balance - 2GG Creature - Human Shaman
Whenever a creature enters the battlefield under an opponent's control, you may search your library for a creature card with less than or equal converted mana cost, reveal it, and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library. X, Discard a creature card with converted mana cost X: Shaman of Nature's Balance deals X to each creature with flying and each player. 2/2
Wow, thanks for the detailed reply. This really helps me make sense of everything.
One thing that struck me, is that you don't necessarily need to have an even color distribution. I think we can both agree on that red, in its current state, is generally considered the weakest color in EDH. Now, you say that you focus on the various archtypes. Have you considered skewing the color pie? To me, it seems like there could be room for experimentation in this area.
You don't need to have an even color distribution, but if you don't, it may affect the longevity of the cube if you aren't careful with it. When you draw cards from the cube to create your packs, you have an equal chance to pull any color or color combination into that pack, so long as your cube is color balanced. If it is not, you skew the chances of putting certain colors or combinations into the draft. This will affect the decks that you see as drafters try for certain color combos and repeatedly have to jump into others, and so stop trying for those colors. Now, in a 500+ card cube, if the difference is 5 cards here and there, this skew is negligible and not likely to make a difference. However, if the difference is something like 50 cards, that will make a pretty big difference. So, if you decide to tweak the color balance, just be careful with how you do it, or you may be short-changing the likelihood that certain generals get played.
We chose an even balance so it was completely random what color distribution showed up in the draft. And also because I rather like red. I played a mono-red deck once that lost horribly . . . but I still really enjoyed myself. They've also upped red's game a bit in recent blocks. The spells matter archetype is starting to look pretty solid.
One thing I didn't quite catch is whether you simply have a huge pile of cards on the table, or if you actually divide the cards into boosters. Whenever a person is supposed to crack open a booster, do you simply draw 8 cards from a randomized pile? Or have you divided them up before the session? I'm just trying to get an impression of what the most common practices are.
We create packs from a large pile of shuffled cards. So to start out with, we shuffle the entire cube a few times to randomize it. We then start creating packs of whatever size we've decided on. When there are enough of them, we put the rest of the cube back in the box and start the draft . . . or sealed.
I've never tried playing or constructing any cubes before, but I really like the concept.
Welcome to cubing. It's the best format I've found for simply hanging out with your friends. Here is a little terminology commonly used on these boards and background for cube so that you can make more informed choices.
Theatre - there are three major theatres related to cube that are discussed here on the boards. The aggro theatre, the mid-range theatre, and the control theatre. Many cube managers here attempt to balance these theatres by providing the support necessary in enough quantity to allows these types of decks to be drafted regularly and completely. However, in this cube, I do not try to balance these theatres at all, at least not in the traditional sense. Instead, I try to balance Archetypes.
Archetype - an archetype is a particular strategy a deck uses to win the game. For example, a token archetype uses tokens and anthems to create a dominant board position. A graveyard archetype uses the graveyard to create a dominant board position. A prison archetype uses hindrances to opponents to create a dominant board position. I try to select generals based on the archetype they support in the deck and then build the cube around those archetypes providing enough support for those generals to shine.
Cube size - your cube size can vary. I selected this cube size based on the number of drafters I had and what I wanted to see. When choosing a cube size, you need to consider three things.
-The range of cards you want to see. Will seeing the same good cards in many drafts bore you or keep you excited?
-How selective you want to be in choosing which cards make it in and which cards are cut. Some people don't want to cut cards they like just because something better was printed, some don't mind because a better card is better.
-The variance between the best cards in the cube and worst cards in the cube. The larger the cube, the lower the average power level of cards in your cube. It's like looking at the top 10 percent of cards versus looking at the top 20 percent of cards. The top 10 percent has an average power level of the 95th percentile. The top 20 percent has an average power level of the 90th percentile.
I chose a cube that supports 8 drafters. This gave me a good balance between the range of cards we saw (we like playing with the best even if we see those card regularly, but with only 4 players, we only see 50% of the cube in a draft), and the variance in powerlevel (the worst cards in the cube aren't too far from the best cards in the cube). However, this makes adjusting the cube to fit new cards more difficult on me because I have to be very selective, a price I am happy to pay.
I have some practical questions related to cubing in general and specifically in relation to EDH that I hope you can help me with. I don't own all the cards in the cube, so I'll be forced to proxy some. Actually, I might even proxy all of them, since my group really enjoy EDH and beer combined. For this purpose, I would imagine that it would be practical to pre-sleeve all 576 cards.
How do you prepare your booster packs? I've seen people pre-sleeve and then use Ikea's sealed bags. Is it a common approach to use something like this?
All of my cards are double sleeved. I use a clear inner sleeve oriented with the open side at the bottom of the card, that I slip that into a regular sleeve oriented with the open side up. This creates a pretty solid barrier to liquids seeping inside so long as you don't leave them sitting in a large puddle. If I remember correctly, I ordered the brand Perfect Fit.
In relation to this, do you arrange the boosters, such that they always have say five commons, 2 uncommons and 1 rare/mythic to somewhat balance the power of the boosters? Or are they all random?
I don't balance the cube based on rarity. I simply put the best 576 cards into the cube that support my general's archetypes. As a result, I don't bother trying to balance the boosters based on rarity. It is all random.
According to your guidelines, it is possible to both play 4 man cubes as sealed or draft. Which one of the two do you prefer?
This cube is built to support up to 8 players in a draft or 4 players in sealed. We typically play with only 4 of us and that is why I settled on this cube size. If we want to see the whole cube we can do that playing with 144 card sealed pools. Or if we want some variance and/or want to do multiple drafts seeing different cards each time, we can do that with 72 card draft pools.
What is the philosophy behind having 8 card packs instead of 12 or 15? How does it affect the draft?
With 8 drafters, a 15 card pack goes around almost twice. That means, you get 2 cards from the pack you open and from the six packs you saw next. In a four man draft with 15 card packs, you see the same pack almost 4 times. The packs start to become stale and unexciting and the best archetypal cards are easily hate drafted because drafters now they will see that same pack again 3 more times allowing them to grab other options later with ease. This has the effect of seeing decks with more mid-draft-picks rather that top-draft-picks. Reducing the pack size to 8 for a 4 man allows each pack to go around twice so they stay exciting and make your draft choices matter more. It also gives you more first picks allowing you to build a better deck.
Have you experimented with players having less than 40 life now that the deck sizes are smaller?
Life total isn't much related to deck size. Life total is more related to the amount of damage that can commonly be dealt out in a single turn. This EDH cube focuses on large, haymaker plays where getting hit for 5-10 life is common. Having a higher life total allows for some back and forth rather than seeing the player with the best starting momentum swing the the game in his or her favor and no one being able to recoup.
I assume that the flow is something like this (assuming 4 - 6 Players Draft: 72 card draft pool, 9 packs of 8 cards, 1 draft pack of 5 generals):
Draft time! Each player gets his commander booster. Crack it open. Pick one. Pass it on. End up with five different commanders. You now know which colors you are "allowed" you play with, but you'll most likely sit on 3-5 different colors anyways.
Draft time! Each player gets 9 packs of 8 cards. Again, regular draft. End up with 72 cards.
Time to be creative. Pick a general. Pick accompanying cards.
?? Profit.
Yup, that's pretty much it. When you draft your general, the focus isn't only on color though. You also want to focus on the archetype that general supports. You have Karador, Ghost Chieftain in your general pool and he sounds like fun to you. In your first pack, you see Grave Titan, Damnation, and Oppression. Damnation is probably top pick for me, as board resets are a good ace in the hole if you aren't the one with momentum. Grave Titan is also a top contender, great stats, can take over the game, and has fantastic synergy with a ton of black's other cards . . . including Karador. However, Oppression is the arguably best of these three to work with Karador at the helm as it quite literally oppresses the rest of the table in a way that doesn't affect you the same way . . . especially if you build around it. At the same time, you might see a Consecrated Sphinx in the pack and decide going blue is a better option simply on power and ignore what your blue generals actually do.
Intuition -> Wharf Infiltrator
Intuition is kind of a niche card that isn't often used. Wharf Infiltrator doesn't serve the same person as pointedly, but can be used in a broader range of decks. Also, nothing wrong with speeding the cube up a bit.
Mass Mutiny -> Hanweir Garrison
I have lots of threaten effects, and oddly, this was the weakest. Garrison will be a nice add.
Memory Adept came out when planewalker removal was few and far between as well. I think the only non-combat removal options were O-Ring and Vindicate at the time (maybe Char and Fireblast too). Many opinions of this card were formed in that environment. I was also not a fan the card. More recently, we've seen quite a few additional planeswalker answers come out though. For those of you who found the card too inconsistent, this will make Memory Adept even worse. For those who feel the card is lacking interaction, this may change the way Memory Adept functions for you, though my guess is that it will put you firmly into the too inconsistent camp.
It's not so much the voltron support that makes Sigarda's Aid appealing as much as the instant speed and, really, the free equips. It would really shine in voltron, but it opens up interesting play option that I think any equipment heavy deck would get good value out of it. The real problem is whether I have a card I think this is better than. I don't think I do, but I will at least consider it.
Thanks, and yeah, 4-5 turn lands is definitely what we have unless someone runs out of the gate with mana rocks.
Yup, no generals in the main cube. We keep them separate and draft them first. You there is a cubetutor link for them as well on the first page of this thread.
I'll take a look at Duskwatch Recruiter. How often you actually hit with that front side ability?
We have not, and I wondered about those swaps as well. Do you see anything that is missing that should be there, some top cards from your cube that you would definitely recommend? It looks like your cube is faster than my own with more focus on the early turns, but still.
I run those swaps by my group when we do get a chance to play.
Was having some difficulty reconciling my cubetutor list and the list here, but I finally got it sorted out. The two lists should match and there should be no duplicate cards.
Enchantment
Whenever an opponent casts a spell, you may discard a creature card. If you do, put X 1/1 Saproling creature tokens onto the battlefield, where X is equal to that spell's converted mana cost.
Shaman of Nature's Balance - 2GG
Creature - Human Shaman
Whenever a creature enters the battlefield under an opponent's control, you may search your library for a creature card with less than or equal converted mana cost, reveal it, and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
X, Discard a creature card with converted mana cost X: Shaman of Nature's Balance deals X to each creature with flying and each player.
2/2
You don't need to have an even color distribution, but if you don't, it may affect the longevity of the cube if you aren't careful with it. When you draw cards from the cube to create your packs, you have an equal chance to pull any color or color combination into that pack, so long as your cube is color balanced. If it is not, you skew the chances of putting certain colors or combinations into the draft. This will affect the decks that you see as drafters try for certain color combos and repeatedly have to jump into others, and so stop trying for those colors. Now, in a 500+ card cube, if the difference is 5 cards here and there, this skew is negligible and not likely to make a difference. However, if the difference is something like 50 cards, that will make a pretty big difference. So, if you decide to tweak the color balance, just be careful with how you do it, or you may be short-changing the likelihood that certain generals get played.
We chose an even balance so it was completely random what color distribution showed up in the draft. And also because I rather like red. I played a mono-red deck once that lost horribly . . . but I still really enjoyed myself. They've also upped red's game a bit in recent blocks. The spells matter archetype is starting to look pretty solid.
We create packs from a large pile of shuffled cards. So to start out with, we shuffle the entire cube a few times to randomize it. We then start creating packs of whatever size we've decided on. When there are enough of them, we put the rest of the cube back in the box and start the draft . . . or sealed.
You're welcome.
Welcome to cubing. It's the best format I've found for simply hanging out with your friends. Here is a little terminology commonly used on these boards and background for cube so that you can make more informed choices.
Theatre - there are three major theatres related to cube that are discussed here on the boards. The aggro theatre, the mid-range theatre, and the control theatre. Many cube managers here attempt to balance these theatres by providing the support necessary in enough quantity to allows these types of decks to be drafted regularly and completely. However, in this cube, I do not try to balance these theatres at all, at least not in the traditional sense. Instead, I try to balance Archetypes.
Archetype - an archetype is a particular strategy a deck uses to win the game. For example, a token archetype uses tokens and anthems to create a dominant board position. A graveyard archetype uses the graveyard to create a dominant board position. A prison archetype uses hindrances to opponents to create a dominant board position. I try to select generals based on the archetype they support in the deck and then build the cube around those archetypes providing enough support for those generals to shine.
Cube size - your cube size can vary. I selected this cube size based on the number of drafters I had and what I wanted to see. When choosing a cube size, you need to consider three things.
-The range of cards you want to see. Will seeing the same good cards in many drafts bore you or keep you excited?
-How selective you want to be in choosing which cards make it in and which cards are cut. Some people don't want to cut cards they like just because something better was printed, some don't mind because a better card is better.
-The variance between the best cards in the cube and worst cards in the cube. The larger the cube, the lower the average power level of cards in your cube. It's like looking at the top 10 percent of cards versus looking at the top 20 percent of cards. The top 10 percent has an average power level of the 95th percentile. The top 20 percent has an average power level of the 90th percentile.
I chose a cube that supports 8 drafters. This gave me a good balance between the range of cards we saw (we like playing with the best even if we see those card regularly, but with only 4 players, we only see 50% of the cube in a draft), and the variance in powerlevel (the worst cards in the cube aren't too far from the best cards in the cube). However, this makes adjusting the cube to fit new cards more difficult on me because I have to be very selective, a price I am happy to pay.
All of my cards are double sleeved. I use a clear inner sleeve oriented with the open side at the bottom of the card, that I slip that into a regular sleeve oriented with the open side up. This creates a pretty solid barrier to liquids seeping inside so long as you don't leave them sitting in a large puddle. If I remember correctly, I ordered the brand Perfect Fit.
I don't balance the cube based on rarity. I simply put the best 576 cards into the cube that support my general's archetypes. As a result, I don't bother trying to balance the boosters based on rarity. It is all random.
This cube is built to support up to 8 players in a draft or 4 players in sealed. We typically play with only 4 of us and that is why I settled on this cube size. If we want to see the whole cube we can do that playing with 144 card sealed pools. Or if we want some variance and/or want to do multiple drafts seeing different cards each time, we can do that with 72 card draft pools.
With 8 drafters, a 15 card pack goes around almost twice. That means, you get 2 cards from the pack you open and from the six packs you saw next. In a four man draft with 15 card packs, you see the same pack almost 4 times. The packs start to become stale and unexciting and the best archetypal cards are easily hate drafted because drafters now they will see that same pack again 3 more times allowing them to grab other options later with ease. This has the effect of seeing decks with more mid-draft-picks rather that top-draft-picks. Reducing the pack size to 8 for a 4 man allows each pack to go around twice so they stay exciting and make your draft choices matter more. It also gives you more first picks allowing you to build a better deck.
Life total isn't much related to deck size. Life total is more related to the amount of damage that can commonly be dealt out in a single turn. This EDH cube focuses on large, haymaker plays where getting hit for 5-10 life is common. Having a higher life total allows for some back and forth rather than seeing the player with the best starting momentum swing the the game in his or her favor and no one being able to recoup.
Yup, that's pretty much it. When you draft your general, the focus isn't only on color though. You also want to focus on the archetype that general supports. You have Karador, Ghost Chieftain in your general pool and he sounds like fun to you. In your first pack, you see Grave Titan, Damnation, and Oppression. Damnation is probably top pick for me, as board resets are a good ace in the hole if you aren't the one with momentum. Grave Titan is also a top contender, great stats, can take over the game, and has fantastic synergy with a ton of black's other cards . . . including Karador. However, Oppression is the arguably best of these three to work with Karador at the helm as it quite literally oppresses the rest of the table in a way that doesn't affect you the same way . . . especially if you build around it. At the same time, you might see a Consecrated Sphinx in the pack and decide going blue is a better option simply on power and ignore what your blue generals actually do.
You're welcome. I hope this helps.
Comeuppance -> Selfless Spirit
Not as tricky, but a better way to protect the team.
Acquire -> Imprisoned in the Moon
Acquire was often hit or miss. Imprisoned in the Moon with be a solid add.
Ancestral Vision -> Mind's Dilation
A much higher cost, but a more fun card to be sure.
Intuition -> Wharf Infiltrator
Intuition is kind of a niche card that isn't often used. Wharf Infiltrator doesn't serve the same person as pointedly, but can be used in a broader range of decks. Also, nothing wrong with speeding the cube up a bit.
Mass Mutiny -> Hanweir Garrison
I have lots of threaten effects, and oddly, this was the weakest. Garrison will be a nice add.
Archetype of Endurance -> Decimator of the Provinces
I think including a more aggressive option for the top end (or anywhere in the middle) is good for this cube.
Your feedback in very welcome.
Yup, no generals in the main cube. We keep them separate and draft them first. You there is a cubetutor link for them as well on the first page of this thread.
I'll take a look at Duskwatch Recruiter. How often you actually hit with that front side ability?
I run those swaps by my group when we do get a chance to play.
Cuts are extremely difficult at this size. I am definitely open to suggestions for better cuts and even better adds. Let me know what you all think.
Main Cube
White
Eight and a Half Tails -> Containment Priest
Mobilization -> Oreskos Explorer
Quarry Colossus -> Relic Seeker
Deathless Angel -> Eldrazi Displacer
Glory -> Hushwing Gryff
Reveillark -> Emeria Shepherd
Myojin of Cleansing Fire -> Resolute Archangel
Banishing Stroke -> Spear of Heliod
Faith's Fetters -> Banishing Light
Oblation -> Council's Judgment
Unexpectedly Absent -> Grasp of Fate
Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant -> Comeuppance
Hokori, Dust Drinker -> Citadel Siege
Hallowed Burial -> End Hostilities
Elspeth Tirel -> Nahiri, the Lithomancer
Blue
Vendilion Clique -> Thing in the Ice
Palinchron -> Dulcet Sirens
Sakashima's Student -> Clever Impersonator
Stormtide Leviathan -> Reef Worm
Spin Into Myth -> Phyrexian Ingester
Soothsaying -> Monastery Siege
Spell Crumple -> Æther Gale
Timetwister -> Mystic Confluence
Proteus Staff -> Crush of Tentacles
Hinder -> Æthersnatch
Chancellor of the Spires -> Dig Through Time
Blue Sun's Zenith -> Treasure Cruise
Black
Braids, Cabal Minion -> Bloodsoaked Champion
Extractor Demon -> Blood Artist
Bloodline Keeper -> Pack Rat
Champion of Stray Souls -> Grim Haruspex
Bone Shredder -> Merciless Executioner
Abhorrent Overlord -> Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
Strands of Night -> Archfiend of Depravity
Bloodgift Demon -> Sidisi, Undead Vizier
Diabolic Revelation -> Behold the Beyond
Hero's Downfall -> Necromantic Selection
Barter in Blood -> In Garruk's Wake
Red
Reforge the Soul -> Humble Defector
Avatar of Slaughter -> Dualcaster Mage
Moonveil Dragon -> Avaricious Dragon
Obsidian Fireheart -> Scourge of the Throne
Homura, Human Ascendent -> Akroma, Angel of Fury
Flameblast Dragon -> Goblin Bombardment
Utvara Hellkite -> Twinflame
Into the Core -> Howl of the Horde
Aftershock -> Arcbond
Gamble -> Commune with Lava
Blood Moon -> Price of Glory
Shattering Pulse -> Fiery Confluence
Prophetic Flamespeaker -> Mizzix's Mastery
Spawn of Thraxes -> Daretti, Scrap Savant
Pyrohemia -> Flameshadow Conjuring
Dragon Mage -> Outpost Siege
Dictate of the Twin Gods -> Berserkers' Onslaught
Unwilling Recruit -> Pyromancer's Goggles
Word of Seizing -> Mob Rule
Green
Hydra Broodmaster -> Genesis Hydra
Budoka Gardener -> Reclamation Sage
Rapaging Baloths -> Skullwinder
Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary -> Tireless Tracker
Primal Command -> Shaman of Forgotten Ways
Giant Adephage -> Titania, Protector of Argoth
Hydra Omnivore -> Greenwarden of Murasa
Momentous Fall -> Evolutionary Leap
Garruk, Caller of Beasts -> Bonds of Mortality
Earthcraft -> Cryptolith Rite
Rude Awakening -> Elemental Bond
Creeping Corrosion -> Song of the Dryads
Birthing Pod -> Seasons Past
Yavimaya Hollow -> Wave of Vitriol
Relic Crush -> Zendikar Resurgent
Multicolored
Whispering Madness -> Sire of Stagnation
Xenagos, the Reveler -> Atarka, World Render
Angel of Despair -> Ashen Rider
Vindicate -> Obzedat's Aid
Colorless
Colossus of Akros -> Hangarback Walker
Phyrexian Processor -> Endbringer
Artisan of Kozilek -> Soul of New Phyrexia
Karn Liberated -> Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Whispersilk Cloak -> Blade of Selves
Expedition Map -> Sword of the Animist
Icy Manipulator -> Assault Suit
Druidic Satchel -> Surveyor's Scope
Phyrexian Altar -> Thought Vessel
Trading Post -> Torpor Orb
Chromatic Lantern -> Commander's Sphere
Mirrorworks -> Hedron Archive
Ratchet Bomb -> Perilous Vault
Forcefield -> Eternity Vessel
Opal Palace -> Mirrorpool
High Market -> Myriad Landscape
Illusionist's Bracers -> Sea Gate Wreckage
Generals Update
Akroma, Angel of Fury -> Feldon of the Third Path
Medomai the Ageless -> Brago, King Eternal
Kaervek the Merciless -> Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord -> Meren of Clan Nel Toth
ADD -> The Gitrog Monster
Athreos, God of Passage -> Daxos the Returned
Nin, the Pain Artist -> Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Prime Speaker Zegana -> Ezuri, Claw of Progress
Aurelia, the Warleader -> Archangel Avacyn
ADD -> Karametra, God of Harvests
Hazezon Tamar -> Gahiji, Honored One
ADD -> Marchesa, the Black Rose
ADD -> Narset, Enlightened Master
Kaalia of the Vast -> Alesha, Who Smiles at Death
Damia, Sage of Stone -> Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Seeking opinions:
How do you all feel about Vengevine and Troll Ascetic at 360 this days?