the RDW deck that i'm running doesn't run equipment but is probably as fast as this deck. I run forked bolt as well as some people have suggested. ON the other hand, I'd be really interested to see which deck performed better in testing. Mine is more burn heavy I think and I run fetches to go with the plated geopede and kargan dragonlord for midgame/late fun.
hey guys. yeah i've already been testing this for the last couple of hours. i think it works better in the green deck which has more infect creatures to get down into play. that + multiple giant growths and the green card that gives the creature shroud and +4+4 is awesome. definitely won a lot of games off lashwire!!!
Why aren't people using mind shatter instead of sludge? If you get stuck on four lands it still hits, and at five mana discard 3 at random is usually almost as good.
We've been having some pretty massive discussions.
In my opinion there are a few ways the deck can go. I have three seperate versions of the deck
I have the hyperaggressive mono black deck. w/ nocturnus, no tendrils,
i have the more controlling version w/ bloodwitch no nocturnus, tendrils too
i have a more controlling b/r version that runs bloodwitch, no tendrils, red cards are 4x terminate, 3x blightning, and 3x slave of bolas (possibly 2).
I'm still not convinced which version is better, but I do know that the hyperaggresive aggro vamp deck with lacerator and 4x bloodghast is my least favourite version and the one that did most poorly in testing
I haven't just randomly taken things out and said the deck is better. I've tweaked it as I went along, and I played enough games with Nocturnus to prefer not having it. it WILL do more than two on the ground if you gatekeeper their answer, tendrils the next, and then disfigure after.
I also run black knight AND hexmage. first strike is great against the many 2 toughness guys.
meh, we each need to test our deck and it will shape itself as it suits our play style. I simply a decklist without the nocturnus.
and yes its a conditional repeatable overrun.
Conditional. repeatable only if its not killed. only helps if your other guys didn't die horribly to volcanic fallout earlier.
Well, in my "losing" deck, I'm choosing to creatures that have good synergy with Nocturnus so they can fly over blockers while pumped and end the game. For some odd reason, I thought that would work.
Black Knight will never deal more than 2 on the ground in this deck. Hexmage is also a 2 power first striker that becomes a 4/2 flyer and can kill planeswalkers.
We've got early game disruption and removal followed by midgame pumped, flying, beaters. Great recovery from sweepers. Late game a minimum 4/4 pro white flyer and tendrils that bombs creatues and gives us life.
I think Wizards gave us a great recipe here, some people just have to try and add something that takes away from the original dish and then call it "better".
NO offense meant, but some people here must have done very little testing with the deck. Duress is almost always going to have good targets in the mainboard and I've had three in there almost from the beginning. If you're playing against an aggro deck, you should still have a target. you can take out DoJ, you can take out bolts, you can take out enemy blightning, honestly I"m not sure if running 3 instead of four is the best option.
Black knight, blocks bloodbraid elf, hellspark elemental, anything white (elspeth, war monk, etc) for free, dodges removal. if there's no nocturnus, and you need a two drop, this is your man.
I like your decklist sleeper agent, it's getting similar to my second incarnation with a red splash. I only run 2 sign in blood because they are not super drawn early against aggro, but that's really a personal choice. I've found slave of bolas to be another nice option for removal.
I run 3x blightning, 3x slave of bolas, 4x terminate, 3x disfigure, 4x veinfire borderpost, 3x duress
4 gatekeeper, 3 blooghast, 4 nighthawk (def should be 4-of), 3 bloodwitch.
i also run 1x sorin, since with 18 lands and 6 borderposts i usually reach six mana fine.
also i haven't run lacerator in any of my decklists for a few days now. they suck against everything except control, and usually just end up eating a volcanic fallout or DoJ before doing much. I'd much rather have a better two drop and so I runt he borderposts and white knight and other stuff.
In addition, it's haste at a point, meaning you can drop another one by surprise and swing in for game when you wouldn't have otherwise.
unfortunately, the times this has happened in all my testing is exactly 0. even when i was running four of them. they are useless against ww soldiers, i still stand by the decision not to run more than 3 of them. the others in the board for control matchups (with wraths, etc).
About the previous poster commenting on the inclusion of black knight. Have you played ww soldiers with the vamp deck. the first strike is better than you'd think against 3/1 hasty tramply elementals bloodbraid elves and such.
pro white dodges a lot of common removal (including the new oblivion ring for creatures)
with the nocturnus gone, there is less reliance on having only vamps in the deck.
My most recent incarnation of the deck (trying out a red splash) runs 4x terminate 4x blightning (which is just disgustingly strong) and 4x veinfire borderpost (2x mistvein borderpost) which helps keep the nocturnus turned on. i also run 3x slave of bolas for removal (awesome against baneslayer too).
also, bloodwitch + disfigure kills baneslayer. i like disfigure better than doom blade in mono b because i've seen a lot of black creatures running around (and black decks).
i'm glad to see people are following my lead dropping bloodghasts down to two. they are good late because they have haste and keep coming back, great in sb to bring in against control. black knights in my deck (as shown in a previous post) tested well in teh version without nocturnus. They are absolutely atrocious against other aggro decks (especially white, or anything green). i'd run them as a 3 of maximum in any vamp deck.
also glad people are starting to like using the malakir bloodwitch instead of nocturnus. Sorin has been good in my more control ish build as a 1-of.
aristocrat should simply not be in the deck. the planeswalker killer, black knight, so many better options.
I suppose my deck is a different vamp deck. Much less aggro, because I found that as an aggro deck it plays like most aggro decks, except worse. I'm not sure the aggro version with lacerators can hold up against WW soldiers or jund aggro. I had a full out aggro version before and it just wasn't working out which is why my deck changed directions.
Its possibly running the nocturnus is better in a full out aggro version, in which case I'd probably run borderposts to help keep him active and help once land drops start running out to pay 1, play bpost, replay land activate bloodghast.
still, i'm not convinced the aggro version is better than what i have, or that ww soldiers isn't simply the better aggro deck.
quest for the gravelord doesn't work at all in my deck, since it relies less on bloodghasts. its simply a terrible topdeck, as are the ascensions. amazing when draw early but multiples don't help unless they too are drawn early. I had two of them in the deck for a while, since they are great against burn decks. Not sure if I was right taking them out.
If you're using Sorin in the deck, and not running lacerators, I feel like you're playing "vampire MBC" or something and not true vampire aggro. We need those one drops and sorin as a finisher is paying 6 mana for a 2-point drain. I feel like there have to be better ways of beating control or "lifegain combo" (?) in the sideboard.
I'm surprised people are talking about not running nocturnus, I just can't see why you wouldn't run him, still. Is tendrils really a better "4-drop" with all the other removal you have? Hmmm...maybe. Facing off against another black aggro deck (which I expect to be common) will devolve into a nocturnus/bloodwitch fight; whoever lands theirs first and most often will win. Not having nocturnus is a disadvantage but you can also kill their nocturnus instant-speed with your tendrils.
*Against burn, tendrils is better, assuming they still have creatures to cast it on after you've disfigured/doom bladed/gatekeeper'd them all.
Thanks for the response. I've been testing a mono white soldiers build as well. I would argue that versions without the nocturnus are stronger than with it, at least that's what I've seen from the testing I've done. I think the only reason I've had success against white so far is because I'm running 3 of the 4/4 pro white guys maindeck as well as 3x black knight. gatekeepers help, as does disfigure+first strikers.
The problem is that late gate every thing white plops down is big because of honour of the pure. The black deck is good because it dodges a lot of the common removal (doom blade, hideous thingy, other removals) and the pro white guys dodge a lot as well. I think black has better game against combo with duress (3x main 1sb) and against control I have mind shatter in sb (1) and 1 maindeck. White decks have to deal with removal that black decks can take a little bit better, although volcanic is a problem.
I think it depends on how the meta turns out. I like being resilient against white removal, but sucking against red reomval is a problem. A white splash would be amazing with access to harm's way and the protection from colours, but it would make gatekeeper harder to cast and tendrils less effective.
With regards to Sorin. My deck has been acting more as a control deck than aggro. I don't run the lacerator (runs straight into garruk tokens and other first strikers and soldiers all day long). He is a great topdeck. Hard to finish off because of his +2 ability, gains life, protects you, and i've won by being able to take their turns twice. never used the ten life ability.
I don't run doom blades side because I run the B destroy target green or white creature. doom blade may well be better, but while its sorcery it can hit putrid leech and lots of common stuff baneslayer included.
With regards to nocturnus, I've never won because of him in the games I've been testing. He's been amazing when theres a black guy on top, and **** when there wasn't. Either way the 4/4 pro white has been more reliable and better at dodging removal.
AND YES, i'd much rather cast a tendrils to keep a creature off their board so my guys can swing in and gain life than have the nocturnus. With 3x disfigure, 4x gatekeeper, first strikers, 4 tendrils, the removal suite is nice, although agony warp would be just freaking incredible (if i could run it).
I run 3x black knight and 4x hexmage (good against random **** like quests, but also planeswalkers, scute mob, etc).
I've found sacraments to be total crap. 3x duress is great to start, mind shatter ends games. I run 22 land and 2 borderposts (for midgame land stall). I can also bring in bloodghasts (only have 2 in md because they're **** against aggro).
No way hippie should be run over the nighthawk. The hawk has been better in 90% of the situations i've run into. As I explained in othe rparagraphs, 3x duress 2x mind shatter and bloodghasts helps against control. the 4/4 pro white is also good. sorin markov is better than you think he is until you've played with him.
HAVEN't tried mind sludge, but maybe I should. Mind shatter is good sometimes when you're vs aggro and they have 2 cards and randomly get rid of them. thats why only 1 md.
Without Nocturnus, I'm not sure I see a point to MonoBlack's existence in a competitive format over MonoWhite.
Strictly speaking here, MonoWhite is capable of making it's creatures huge over a period of time and most of them tend to be just as big as those that we have in this deck. The difference is that MonoBlack is not only capable of making them big, but can also give them evasion; which is a very important element. It also has superior spot removal and has the most powerful sweeper in the game. I'm just not certain I see why one would be inclined to play MonoB over MonoW if they wanted a competitive deck without Nocturnus.
The Bloodwitch is nice, but I'm not so certain I'd rather pay 5CC for her over Baneslayer Angel in a White deck.
Discuss?
2<c>Veinfire Borderpost</c> (could be the u/b one)
18<c>Swamp</c>
4<c>Marsh Flats</c>
4<c>Vampire Hexmage</c>
4<c>Vampire Nighthawk</c>
4<c>Gatekeeper of Malakir</c>
2<c>Bloodghast</c>
3<c>Black Knight</c>
3<c>Malakir Bloodwitch</c>
4<c>Tendrils of Corruption</c>
3<c>Disfigure</c>
3<c>Duress</c>
2<c>Sign in Blood</c>
2<c>Sorin Markov</c>
1<c>Mind Shatter</c>
1<c>Grim Discovery</c>
SB 3 pithing needle (vs planeswalkers random stuff) 1 haunting echoes, 2 deathmark, 2 doom blade, 1 mind shatter, 1 duress, 1 sign in blood, 2 bloodghast, 1 malakir bloodwitch, 1 black knight
(since ww soldiers WILL be a problem)
Honestly, I haven't been running nocturnus for the last 3 days of testing. Never works out as well as you'd think. I'm running 3x black knight and 3x malakir bloodwitch because white removal is so prevalent, the lifegain is relevant, and first strike is awesome in this format. I'm actually down to two bloodghasts, since they've been underperforming. 1 in the sb to bring in against control. i run 3x disfigure 4x gatekeeper and 4x tendrils for removal. doesn't screw me over against the widely prevalent black aggro creatures like doom blade. tendrils and gatekeeper can keep a lid on baneslayer as well as the pro white vamp. 2 sorin malkov ends games. i run 24 land including 4 fetchlands. testing has been going extremely well, with the only problems coming from jund aggro (blightning, bloodbraid elf, putrid leech, maelstrom pulse, 3/1 trample haste, fast ****).
My two cents.
and on another note, the nighthawk is amazing. huge help against aggro and control both. one of the mvps (and seriously, people should consider testing without the nocturnus, i've tested and the matchup is in the favour of my current decklist).
yeah i'm kinda getting bored of the dies to removal stuff.
akroma, angel of wrath.
path to exile.
=(
sure it's 7 mana, and you can get cruel ultimatum for the same price. i dont think it's going to form the backbone or finisher for a deck in the near future, but please lets stop bringing up path to exile.
yeah we don't know all the cards. and what i've seen looks pretty good. i'd rather they release sets with not too many keywords and stuff so i'll be able to enjoy magic for longer. some of the cards look great, so i'm looking forward to it, like every set.
Lol. Yeah the flavour text is pretty cringeworthy. Oh well. At least the card is back!
In my opinion there are a few ways the deck can go. I have three seperate versions of the deck
I have the hyperaggressive mono black deck. w/ nocturnus, no tendrils,
i have the more controlling version w/ bloodwitch no nocturnus, tendrils too
i have a more controlling b/r version that runs bloodwitch, no tendrils, red cards are 4x terminate, 3x blightning, and 3x slave of bolas (possibly 2).
I'm still not convinced which version is better, but I do know that the hyperaggresive aggro vamp deck with lacerator and 4x bloodghast is my least favourite version and the one that did most poorly in testing
I also run black knight AND hexmage. first strike is great against the many 2 toughness guys.
meh, we each need to test our deck and it will shape itself as it suits our play style. I simply a decklist without the nocturnus.
and yes its a conditional repeatable overrun.
Conditional. repeatable only if its not killed. only helps if your other guys didn't die horribly to volcanic fallout earlier.
Black knight, blocks bloodbraid elf, hellspark elemental, anything white (elspeth, war monk, etc) for free, dodges removal. if there's no nocturnus, and you need a two drop, this is your man.
I like your decklist sleeper agent, it's getting similar to my second incarnation with a red splash. I only run 2 sign in blood because they are not super drawn early against aggro, but that's really a personal choice. I've found slave of bolas to be another nice option for removal.
I run 3x blightning, 3x slave of bolas, 4x terminate, 3x disfigure, 4x veinfire borderpost, 3x duress
4 gatekeeper, 3 blooghast, 4 nighthawk (def should be 4-of), 3 bloodwitch.
i also run 1x sorin, since with 18 lands and 6 borderposts i usually reach six mana fine.
also i haven't run lacerator in any of my decklists for a few days now. they suck against everything except control, and usually just end up eating a volcanic fallout or DoJ before doing much. I'd much rather have a better two drop and so I runt he borderposts and white knight and other stuff.
goblin guide is wrong for the deck.
unfortunately, the times this has happened in all my testing is exactly 0. even when i was running four of them. they are useless against ww soldiers, i still stand by the decision not to run more than 3 of them. the others in the board for control matchups (with wraths, etc).
About the previous poster commenting on the inclusion of black knight. Have you played ww soldiers with the vamp deck. the first strike is better than you'd think against 3/1 hasty tramply elementals bloodbraid elves and such.
pro white dodges a lot of common removal (including the new oblivion ring for creatures)
with the nocturnus gone, there is less reliance on having only vamps in the deck.
also, bloodwitch + disfigure kills baneslayer. i like disfigure better than doom blade in mono b because i've seen a lot of black creatures running around (and black decks).
i'm glad to see people are following my lead dropping bloodghasts down to two. they are good late because they have haste and keep coming back, great in sb to bring in against control. black knights in my deck (as shown in a previous post) tested well in teh version without nocturnus. They are absolutely atrocious against other aggro decks (especially white, or anything green). i'd run them as a 3 of maximum in any vamp deck.
also glad people are starting to like using the malakir bloodwitch instead of nocturnus. Sorin has been good in my more control ish build as a 1-of.
aristocrat should simply not be in the deck. the planeswalker killer, black knight, so many better options.
Its possibly running the nocturnus is better in a full out aggro version, in which case I'd probably run borderposts to help keep him active and help once land drops start running out to pay 1, play bpost, replay land activate bloodghast.
still, i'm not convinced the aggro version is better than what i have, or that ww soldiers isn't simply the better aggro deck.
quest for the gravelord doesn't work at all in my deck, since it relies less on bloodghasts. its simply a terrible topdeck, as are the ascensions. amazing when draw early but multiples don't help unless they too are drawn early. I had two of them in the deck for a while, since they are great against burn decks. Not sure if I was right taking them out.
The problem is that late gate every thing white plops down is big because of honour of the pure. The black deck is good because it dodges a lot of the common removal (doom blade, hideous thingy, other removals) and the pro white guys dodge a lot as well. I think black has better game against combo with duress (3x main 1sb) and against control I have mind shatter in sb (1) and 1 maindeck. White decks have to deal with removal that black decks can take a little bit better, although volcanic is a problem.
I think it depends on how the meta turns out. I like being resilient against white removal, but sucking against red reomval is a problem. A white splash would be amazing with access to harm's way and the protection from colours, but it would make gatekeeper harder to cast and tendrils less effective.
With regards to Sorin. My deck has been acting more as a control deck than aggro. I don't run the lacerator (runs straight into garruk tokens and other first strikers and soldiers all day long). He is a great topdeck. Hard to finish off because of his +2 ability, gains life, protects you, and i've won by being able to take their turns twice. never used the ten life ability.
I don't run doom blades side because I run the B destroy target green or white creature. doom blade may well be better, but while its sorcery it can hit putrid leech and lots of common stuff baneslayer included.
With regards to nocturnus, I've never won because of him in the games I've been testing. He's been amazing when theres a black guy on top, and **** when there wasn't. Either way the 4/4 pro white has been more reliable and better at dodging removal.
AND YES, i'd much rather cast a tendrils to keep a creature off their board so my guys can swing in and gain life than have the nocturnus. With 3x disfigure, 4x gatekeeper, first strikers, 4 tendrils, the removal suite is nice, although agony warp would be just freaking incredible (if i could run it).
I run 3x black knight and 4x hexmage (good against random **** like quests, but also planeswalkers, scute mob, etc).
I've found sacraments to be total crap. 3x duress is great to start, mind shatter ends games. I run 22 land and 2 borderposts (for midgame land stall). I can also bring in bloodghasts (only have 2 in md because they're **** against aggro).
No way hippie should be run over the nighthawk. The hawk has been better in 90% of the situations i've run into. As I explained in othe rparagraphs, 3x duress 2x mind shatter and bloodghasts helps against control. the 4/4 pro white is also good. sorin markov is better than you think he is until you've played with him.
HAVEN't tried mind sludge, but maybe I should. Mind shatter is good sometimes when you're vs aggro and they have 2 cards and randomly get rid of them. thats why only 1 md.
2<c>Veinfire Borderpost</c> (could be the u/b one)
18<c>Swamp</c>
4<c>Marsh Flats</c>
4<c>Vampire Hexmage</c>
4<c>Vampire Nighthawk</c>
4<c>Gatekeeper of Malakir</c>
2<c>Bloodghast</c>
3<c>Black Knight</c>
3<c>Malakir Bloodwitch</c>
4<c>Tendrils of Corruption</c>
3<c>Disfigure</c>
3<c>Duress</c>
2<c>Sign in Blood</c>
2<c>Sorin Markov</c>
1<c>Mind Shatter</c>
1<c>Grim Discovery</c>
SB 3 pithing needle (vs planeswalkers random stuff) 1 haunting echoes, 2 deathmark, 2 doom blade, 1 mind shatter, 1 duress, 1 sign in blood, 2 bloodghast, 1 malakir bloodwitch, 1 black knight
(since ww soldiers WILL be a problem)
My two cents.
and on another note, the nighthawk is amazing. huge help against aggro and control both. one of the mvps (and seriously, people should consider testing without the nocturnus, i've tested and the matchup is in the favour of my current decklist).
akroma, angel of wrath.
path to exile.
=(
sure it's 7 mana, and you can get cruel ultimatum for the same price. i dont think it's going to form the backbone or finisher for a deck in the near future, but please lets stop bringing up path to exile.