Thanks for the feedback enveryone. I know the deck is quite good, but I feel like I'm wasting graveyard power when I play it ( as I said, most times I end up with 10+ cards milled in there and nothing to do with them ). The 4C reanimator looks like the way to go for me, I'm gonna try getting an Abzan Reanimator list and fitting some Sidisis and Sultai Charms in there. I'm thinking about this list Texas State Championship. Changing: -2 Necropolis Fiend and -1Ashen Rider for +4 Sidisi, Brood Tyrant, also -3 See the Unwritten for +2 Sultai Charm. I don't know about Rescue from the Underworld though, should I take it for more removal? Hero's Downfall or more Charms maybe. I would love to hear your suggestions.
1. Don't think of the graveyard as 'power'- just think of it as a tool to cast cards appropriately or slightly cheaper than they should be. Murderous cut for example loses power if you cast if for more than 1B (i.e. doomblade). If you can cast cards for their proper power or for slightly less then you're doing fine.
2. You just removed a ton of power in favor or weaker cards. Ashen Rider is a primary selling point of W along with Siege Rhino for example.
I've been testing Christian Seibold's list, and I really feel like I'm wasting my graveyard's power. Sure, Whip and Soul of Innistrad can take back some stuff, and murderous cut almost always costs B due to delve. But, most times, at the late game, I end up having 10+ cards in the yard unused. I think we need some more powerful delve spells in this list, like 2 x Empty the Pits and maybe some Dig Through Time, aren't we supposed to be abusing the delve mechanic? What do you guys think? This list just screams Empty the Pits to me.
Because Delve isn't a particularly strong mechanic right now. It's strong in that it makes spells cheap early-to-mid game, but not one Delve target in particular is very powerful per se. That's why you're seeing people move their list toward a 4th color, W, when they should simply play Abzan reanimator (in my opinion) or shift toward a midrange/control hybrid approach.
I personally like Satyr Wayfinder due to his Delve-feeding. I don't think he should be cut in any circumstances. I'm brewing something. I'll post it Thursday before FNM and tell you how it performs.
It depends on what variant you're running. If you are balls out, individual card power be damned, Delve, then he's perfect as a 4 of. If you are cutting Whips and cutting Murderous Cuts with only, say, 2 Treasure Cruise, then maybe he's just a 2 or 3 of along with Elvish Mystic.
Has anyone been having trouble vs control decks? We aren't a particularly fast deck and end hostilities does a number on us. and then they just win through digs and planeswalkers.
Any FNM updates?
Also we are official! Yay!
I've come to some conclusions about the deck that some may agree or disagree with. 4 Caryatid and 3 Mystic seems perfect for the deck, while the variant with Wayfinder, 4 Mystics and no Caryatids seems objectively worse and less competitive. The chumping Caryatid provides is great, but the extra mana (particularly blue) facilitates early casting of Sidisi, Treasure Cruise without using graveyard delve fuel and of course counters after sideboard (4 or some combination of Disdainful Strokes and negates at least IMO). Between negate, disdainful stroke and heroes downfall, we have game vs. Planeswalkers and control. Deathdealer is a durdle machine and I am growing to hate him. He seems underpowered relative to the entire field without Caryatid ramp and on par with other creatures of similar casting cost with Caryatid. I can understand why Nelson and others have slowly altered their lists down to 2 Deathdealers. Cutting all but three heralds for Bestow (I am willing to say that Nighthowler is bad now, whereas before I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt) and adding a few fatties (Hornet Queen, Soul of Innistrad or even Sagu Mailer) makes total sense given that this deck isn't particularly fast, but just takes advantage of a secondary 'mana source' for convenience and value.
In the end, my personal experience lately leads me to believe that the deck drifts toward BUG Control or BUG midrange with a few Delve cards when you start to really consider being competitive in this meta.
I'm going to stop beating a dead horse, but again, this card does not replace any reanimator or tutor spells for that matter. You can choose to search for other spells in situations where it is appropriate (i.e. good graveyard reanimation targets). We run different lists- and, for example, I don't care for so many counters and don't play Force of Will. It's an easy fit for me then, and conceivably you, without removing any of the core spells and some number of counters to play it if you wanted to. I'm not convincing you to play it though, just exploring it's relative value. For me, this is the kind of deck that can get gassed (bazaar of baghdad anyone?) and with the amount of Graveyard hate in the format can arrive in a situation late game where it makes sense to Mystical Tutor or Demonic Tutor a Wealth instead of a reanimator spell or sweep. Again, this is a tutorable spell, protectable by counter magic that can simply end a game by itself. That puts it in a special class of magic cards in my opinion. For me, I think you arrive at a point where *more* tutors doesn't help you as much as you think it does. Further, you say that creature based decks aren't the most powerful meta, and let's say I agree with that. However, the curve of powerful cards in EDH decks is also going down. Therefore, with time, you gain the ability to see more worthwhile targets at lower X costs (say, 5) than ever before.
In theory we'd all like to have 'optimal' things to do with 10+ mana that fit a specific theme or plan. I think it's worth testing, however, to see how often a 7+ X Wealth is worse than hardcasting a Jin, or reanimating even two graveyard targets [things I have done that have not closed out a game many times]. Again, it's worth noting that this card doesn't take the place of those reanimator spells or combo pieces. It could simply turn a multi-player deck into a more aggressive rather than reactive variant by omitting removal.
Also, I think you're viewing the card wrong when you say "most of the benefits I could already get are in this deck." In theory, this is a card that can be top-decked and cast at, say, 7 X as 7 different cards simultaneously. Taking a look at a popular EDH deck, Jenara, over half the deck would be a decent to great target late game. Even a simple "Mulldrifter, Darksteel Plate, Fierce Empth and 4 lands" as the turn is pretty darned good. It means you gain two creatures (one flying), draw two cards, and get a big fatty to cast next turn along with a critical piece of equipment for a general. Yes, you will whiff, but to me, the odds are low you get no value from it, whereas in a 3-4 person EDH game, you're going to whiff on a lot of different things, whether central to the plan or not (i.e. getting bogged, or tormod's).
It seems decent at 4 plus but that's seven mana. At 7 mana I want to get Jin with countermagic back up. The rest is just icing on the cake. And that's assuming the cards you get are even good. What about those cases where you tap 7 and get land, land, Farseek, and Temporal mastery? It seems way more common that you tap 7 and get an extra land drop or draw a few cards than get those kinds of god plays. And even so Demonic tutor + Fact or fiction is still 6 mana. Seems just better overall to have more tutors and answers, rather than hope to get something good off of it.
I can however see it being hilarious to kill someone with infinite mana and that. But by then you win anyway
It depends on what you see this type of card competing against for deck space. It doesn't replace counterspells or tutors, nor does it replace reanimator spells or value/important creatures. My list differs from yours to some extent, but I would easily remove Gaze of Granite and replace it with Villainous Wealth. Same casting cost essentially, and I prefer to be proactive rather than reactive. I'd also be willing to drop Coiling Oracle for it if I ran that or a Rune Scarred Demon, which I find to often be overpriced and not a lot of value.
I think the fact that you can play ANY nonland cards from it- including enchantments and creatures, is quite important. Being able to take a big fatty like Sun Titan, or a Crucible of Worlds, or a Karmic Justice along with your typical Instants and Sorceries is amazing.
The times I lose in EDH with a reanimator style deck, the Graveyard is hosed and I am stuck casting creature cards from my hand, or my opponents have a number of sweepers to keep the board clear. Late game, we don't have many 'end the game' spells. I'm hard pressed to imagine many situations where casting this for 8-12 X isn't a straight up win, unless you are incredibly unlucky.
I can see what you guys are saying with regard to Villainous Wealth, but, anecdotally, I only really play against good stuff EDH decks and the cards I have gotten off of it in two uses are good-to-amazing with the hint at being GREAT with a higher X spent. One time I cast it for 4 and cast Regrowth and Natural Order. Second time I cast it for 4 and played Fact or Fiction, Cyclonic Rift on his general and Demonic Tutor.
Anything below 4 mana spent for X and I don't see it being worth it. Anything 4 or above and it's in 'top card of it's casting cost' territory.
There are times late game where casting it for 8-10 is not out of the question. I am willing to play Farseekstyle ramp with the risk of drawing it late game because it has incredible early game utility. I am also willing to have certain cards in my deck that just rule late game.
I'm personally running 3 courser 1 Nemesis of Mortals 3 eidolon of blossoms and a cpl Gnarled Scarhide, Pharika, Nylea, Sidisi, Wayfinder, Weaver, caryatid, and mystics. Going heavy enchantment, I might try that Sagu Mauler that sounds like it might be worth it. P.s. Don't forget yourstrength from the fallen
Seems like a different deck you're building frankly. Strength from the Fallen in particular seems to run counter to a delve style deck.
This thread is suffering from a lack of imagination and continued regression to variants that simply don't post results. How many decklists have posted results using Izzet Charms or Magma Jets, for example? Why aren't winning decks being used as a baseline for reimagination or creativity?
Ux Control is the most obnoxious and unfun control matchup. I appreciate the skill it takes to run a deck like this but its very noninteractive and lacks creativity. The majority of U control I've seen are the same. I respect control players who play outside of the box and go at it from a different angel like Naya Control or Boros control.
Interaction in Magic doesn't just mean "blocking an attacking creature with a creature." "Noninteraction" means you simply don't care what your opponent casts because your combo simply acts outside of their gameplay. Whether they cast a creature, or artifact or disrupt your hand doesn't matter so long as you arrive at the right combination of cards, usually very quickly, with no way for your opponent to then get out of the lock. Control decks are the total and complete opposite of noninteractive decks. I can't stress enough how interactive control decks are and how wrong you are.
Control decks right now have all of the following capabilities and decisions:
They can exile opponents permanents
They can kill creatures or Planeswalkers with a damage spell or damage opponents with such spells
They can counter an opponents spell
They can block opponents creatures with their own creatures
They can sweep the board
They can bounce creatures that are attacking
And on and on.
Which of these are noninteractive exactly? Every decision control decks make are interactive, unlike, say Belcher in legacy or something.
Do you guys think it is worth anything to run off-colored scry-lands? Ia am running 2xTemple of Mystery. Trying it out in place of Guildgates. I think the scry could be relevant. I'm gonna test it out during our Wednesday event.
No, right now we have to live with 4 on color ones.
I've found that Ratchet Bomb is increasingly useful against our worst matchups or against some strong decks in the format. I think I might fit 2 into the sideboard from now on.
While I understand that, you have to tap mana to pump the Weird. To get to 4 damage as he suggests you're pretty much tapping out through turn 6 or so in many occasions. The Cyclops also has 4 toughness, and while it costs 1 more during one turn of play, it also costs less mana over time as an investment. In the end, I think the Weird is probably good, but I won't be pumping it more than twice pretty much ever.
I am being a bit secretive until the first FnM where I can play the cards (next friday). But I do have some more info and I've been testing quite a bit on Cockatrice.
1. Frostburn Weird is really good in this deck. Against all aggro, he brick walls them the first 3 turns. Perfect for letting me stock up on cards in hand and leaving mana untapped for counters turns 3 and on. He's really awesome against control decks too. I put him out turn 2. Very rarely have people spot removed him the turn after i play him. So I put him out turn 2, and if they just keep leaving their mana open subsequent turns (waiting to react to something I do), I just swing with Frostburn for 4 and keep all my other good stuff in hand. Eventually they will have to remove him cause they'll take 3 or
I misread this, but I am not sure if Nivix Cyclops is a worse choice than Weird here... particularly since you're tapping out to get the damage in. If you're not really interested in counters maybe it's efficient, but I like to have 2 mana open for the eventual beaters or 3 mana if possible.
I feel like with the amount of instants and sorceries that Nivix Cyclops should be one of the creatures in this deck. He works really well with Teleportal and our other spells. My creature suite in mind is Young Pyromancer, Nivix Cyclops, and the new chimera. I haven't tried Guttersnipe but he's probably pretty good in the shell. I just don't like Electromancer.
I feel the same way about Guttersnipe and Electromancer. I could take or leave the Guttersnipe but electromancer is just a vanilla 2/2 body most of the time.
1. Don't think of the graveyard as 'power'- just think of it as a tool to cast cards appropriately or slightly cheaper than they should be. Murderous cut for example loses power if you cast if for more than 1B (i.e. doomblade). If you can cast cards for their proper power or for slightly less then you're doing fine.
2. You just removed a ton of power in favor or weaker cards. Ashen Rider is a primary selling point of W along with Siege Rhino for example.
Because Delve isn't a particularly strong mechanic right now. It's strong in that it makes spells cheap early-to-mid game, but not one Delve target in particular is very powerful per se. That's why you're seeing people move their list toward a 4th color, W, when they should simply play Abzan reanimator (in my opinion) or shift toward a midrange/control hybrid approach.
It depends on what variant you're running. If you are balls out, individual card power be damned, Delve, then he's perfect as a 4 of. If you are cutting Whips and cutting Murderous Cuts with only, say, 2 Treasure Cruise, then maybe he's just a 2 or 3 of along with Elvish Mystic.
I've come to some conclusions about the deck that some may agree or disagree with. 4 Caryatid and 3 Mystic seems perfect for the deck, while the variant with Wayfinder, 4 Mystics and no Caryatids seems objectively worse and less competitive. The chumping Caryatid provides is great, but the extra mana (particularly blue) facilitates early casting of Sidisi, Treasure Cruise without using graveyard delve fuel and of course counters after sideboard (4 or some combination of Disdainful Strokes and negates at least IMO). Between negate, disdainful stroke and heroes downfall, we have game vs. Planeswalkers and control. Deathdealer is a durdle machine and I am growing to hate him. He seems underpowered relative to the entire field without Caryatid ramp and on par with other creatures of similar casting cost with Caryatid. I can understand why Nelson and others have slowly altered their lists down to 2 Deathdealers. Cutting all but three heralds for Bestow (I am willing to say that Nighthowler is bad now, whereas before I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt) and adding a few fatties (Hornet Queen, Soul of Innistrad or even Sagu Mailer) makes total sense given that this deck isn't particularly fast, but just takes advantage of a secondary 'mana source' for convenience and value.
In the end, my personal experience lately leads me to believe that the deck drifts toward BUG Control or BUG midrange with a few Delve cards when you start to really consider being competitive in this meta.
Also, I think you're viewing the card wrong when you say "most of the benefits I could already get are in this deck." In theory, this is a card that can be top-decked and cast at, say, 7 X as 7 different cards simultaneously. Taking a look at a popular EDH deck, Jenara, over half the deck would be a decent to great target late game. Even a simple "Mulldrifter, Darksteel Plate, Fierce Empth and 4 lands" as the turn is pretty darned good. It means you gain two creatures (one flying), draw two cards, and get a big fatty to cast next turn along with a critical piece of equipment for a general. Yes, you will whiff, but to me, the odds are low you get no value from it, whereas in a 3-4 person EDH game, you're going to whiff on a lot of different things, whether central to the plan or not (i.e. getting bogged, or tormod's).
It depends on what you see this type of card competing against for deck space. It doesn't replace counterspells or tutors, nor does it replace reanimator spells or value/important creatures. My list differs from yours to some extent, but I would easily remove Gaze of Granite and replace it with Villainous Wealth. Same casting cost essentially, and I prefer to be proactive rather than reactive. I'd also be willing to drop Coiling Oracle for it if I ran that or a Rune Scarred Demon, which I find to often be overpriced and not a lot of value.
I think the fact that you can play ANY nonland cards from it- including enchantments and creatures, is quite important. Being able to take a big fatty like Sun Titan, or a Crucible of Worlds, or a Karmic Justice along with your typical Instants and Sorceries is amazing.
The times I lose in EDH with a reanimator style deck, the Graveyard is hosed and I am stuck casting creature cards from my hand, or my opponents have a number of sweepers to keep the board clear. Late game, we don't have many 'end the game' spells. I'm hard pressed to imagine many situations where casting this for 8-12 X isn't a straight up win, unless you are incredibly unlucky.
Anything below 4 mana spent for X and I don't see it being worth it. Anything 4 or above and it's in 'top card of it's casting cost' territory.
There are times late game where casting it for 8-10 is not out of the question. I am willing to play Farseekstyle ramp with the risk of drawing it late game because it has incredible early game utility. I am also willing to have certain cards in my deck that just rule late game.
Seems like a different deck you're building frankly. Strength from the Fallen in particular seems to run counter to a delve style deck.
Interaction in Magic doesn't just mean "blocking an attacking creature with a creature." "Noninteraction" means you simply don't care what your opponent casts because your combo simply acts outside of their gameplay. Whether they cast a creature, or artifact or disrupt your hand doesn't matter so long as you arrive at the right combination of cards, usually very quickly, with no way for your opponent to then get out of the lock. Control decks are the total and complete opposite of noninteractive decks. I can't stress enough how interactive control decks are and how wrong you are.
Control decks right now have all of the following capabilities and decisions:
They can exile opponents permanents
They can kill creatures or Planeswalkers with a damage spell or damage opponents with such spells
They can counter an opponents spell
They can block opponents creatures with their own creatures
They can sweep the board
They can bounce creatures that are attacking
And on and on.
Which of these are noninteractive exactly? Every decision control decks make are interactive, unlike, say Belcher in legacy or something.
No, right now we have to live with 4 on color ones.
While I understand that, you have to tap mana to pump the Weird. To get to 4 damage as he suggests you're pretty much tapping out through turn 6 or so in many occasions. The Cyclops also has 4 toughness, and while it costs 1 more during one turn of play, it also costs less mana over time as an investment. In the end, I think the Weird is probably good, but I won't be pumping it more than twice pretty much ever.
I misread this, but I am not sure if Nivix Cyclops is a worse choice than Weird here... particularly since you're tapping out to get the damage in. If you're not really interested in counters maybe it's efficient, but I like to have 2 mana open for the eventual beaters or 3 mana if possible.
I feel the same way about Guttersnipe and Electromancer. I could take or leave the Guttersnipe but electromancer is just a vanilla 2/2 body most of the time.