Make no mistake, I definitely believe Abaddon to be beatable. You just need a concussive blast that is strong enough to take out Terminator Armor. I don't share the deux ex machina argument that Plaguefather has that says "If he comes close to defeat than the Chaos Gods will intervene and make him a Daemon Prince incapable of even being defeated by the God Emperor of Mankind".
I view Abaddon as more like just a Warhammer version of Doomsday. Incredibly tough, strong and having some ultra strong equipment. But for all of his incredible physical gifts, he doesn't really have that much in the way of psychic, magical or even intellectual gifts. In my mind he suffers the same weaknesses as any other brute contestant, being that he can't outsmart someone like Iron Man or Dr. Doom.
Dante and Bayonetta just don't have much going for them considering they are just basically a different kind of Kratos/Dante team up. If they can't win through brute force alone, they just aren't winning. And that's why I've been on the Chaotic Genius side of things.
Is nobody supporting Team Psychic Monsters even reading my argument for how it's completely infeasible for Nicol Bolas to make an inkling of a difference in this matchup so long as Kefka doesn't flip Sephiroth the bird and not fight at all (which wouldn't be conducive to his ego, as he has to be ruler of SOMETHING, meaning he'd want to get off the plane as quickly as possible)? As I said, Kefka is the GOD of MAGIC. That means Nicol Bolas's physical attributes are the ONLY thing he has going for him. Again, that's also presuming Mewtwo's psychic powers do NOT count as magic - otherwise, this is a complete and utter curbstomp battle in favor of Team Final Fantasy Villains.
To be fair I'm only ASSUMING that this is a possible outcome of the battle with Kefka involved. Obviously during his final boss fights in Final Fantasy 6, despite him being a "God of Magic" your party has full and unrestricted access to magic. So facing Kefka doesn't automatically mean no magic allowed. I was merely entertaining a proposed scenario that a lot of people thought was plausible.
Clearly the poll disagrees with this sentiment however, so I'd really like to hear more from the other supporters of Team Psychic Monsters.
Your arguments point at Seph running away from the battle until Kefka defeats TPM.
The problem here is that Kefa is out to destroy everything and everyone. Seph, being an arrogant selfcentered bastard that he is will not run away from Kefka if he attacks him. He will defend himself. That will be his downfall. It is not nobility, it is arrognace. Seph is an arrogant guy. He is also, like all other FF bad guys, fearless to the point where it is crazy.
Your arguments are poor if you take their character into account. Seph has an extreme desire to prove that he is better than anyone lese. He suffers from mesiah complex. Once again, if Kefka attacks him, and he most likely will since he has none self control, Seph will defend himself to save his own ass. He is a warrior, he will not run. He might ally himself with Bolas, probably thinking to outsmart and backstabb him, but...you can't outsmart Bolas
Except you and I have very different interpretations on how to stay true to the Final Fantasy Villains character.
Simply put, if we can concede that Kefka can and would defeat Sephiroth in battle, or that he is the ruler of all Magic and capable of destroying it at a whim, Sephiroth knows this, and thus knows that fighting back would be pointless, even if he has a messiah complex.
In addition, assuming if he even WOULD decide to fight Kefka, like you said, he has a messiah complex, I. E. "I can do it alone". He wouldn't even consider asking Bolas for help, or even accepting anyone elses help.
You are clearly mistaken that a Sephiroth/Bolas team is possible here. It just isn't going to happen. If your are being true to the character of Sephiroth.
You're gonna have to think of a different argument to justify a win for Mewtwo/Nicol Bolas. Because you're current crop of argument's aren't convincing anyone. If your argument hinges on the fact that Team Psychic Monsters NEEDS Sephiroth to fight Kefka in order to win, then you're not voting for Team Psychic Monsters winning. You're voting for a technicality to happen that allows them to win due to plot armor, not on their actual merits and abilities.
This kind of argument didn't work for saying Static would defect to Team Basketballers, and it didn't work for saying that Hulk would team up with Iron Man & Boba Fett would all work together to fight Doomsday. And it makes even LESS sense here than it did for the other two match ups.
If your argument is that Kefka is strong enough to take everyone all by his self, than that would still constitute a win for Team Final Fantasy Villains. Because even if Sephiroth "died" fighting Kefka, everyone else would as well.
Case in point, it looks like there is only two ways this battle is being visualized to happen.
1) Either Kefka is so crazy and careless he drains the world of all magic and leaves. leading to a Sephiroth win because he is the best hand to hand fighter with a sword that cuts through skyscrapers, while the opponents are nerfed.
2) Or Kefka goes completely insane and bent on destruction, attacking everyone at once. I think every single person here except for one of us would agree that Sephiroth would not team with Nicol Bolas unless under some sort of mind control from Bolas. And Kefka is either so powerful he defeats everyone by himself, or he defeats Bolas and Mewtwo before Sephiroth. Either way, leading into a technical victory for Team Final Fantasy Villains.
I'm gonna need to hear an actual argument in favor of Mewtwo and Bolas using their own abilities to be convinced that FF Villains lose. Not some mumbo jumbo about how Kefka is too crazy to fight or that Sephiroth acts out of character and teams up with people he knows are his opponents. People were doing a better job trying to convince me based off the psychic attack arguments than assuming Kefka and Sephiroth would instantly implode as a team.
Because Kefka would try to kill him just to cause more destruction? I know it sounds weird, but that is how his mindset works. Kefka does not care how and why things happen, he just cares about causing destruction. Kefka's only joy in life comes from causing death and chaos wherever he can. In Dissidia Kefka is presented as a man so twisted all that can bring joy to him is mindless destruction.
This still doesn't explain how Sephiroth suddenly decides to fight his own partner. Sure, Kefka wants to destroy the universe, so does Sephiroth. They have a common goal.
Kefka is bat**** crazy. He's not going to target Sephiroth, just like he's not going to target Mewtwo or Nicol Bolas specifically. If we are to accept your premise, than you have to be willing to admit that Kefka is trying to destroy EVERYONE.
Therefore, Sephiroth would be the one more likely to sneak off and let his "partner" do the damage first. Not, Nicol Bolas. Bolas knows he has to defeat Kefka to win. Sephiroth doesn't have to do anything to Kefka unless Kekfa takes out Bolas and Mewtwo by himself. Sephiroth has no incentive to sacrifice himself or save his own life in the front lines of battle knowing that his opponent's are still alive.
It doesn't make a lick of sense for Kefka to go after Sephiroth right off the bat, and makes even less sense for Sephiroth to develop some sort of noble personality where he feels it's important for him to fight Kefka first and not use the chaos to his advantage.
Kefka did not become a God so that he could rule over all...oh no...at the end of Final Fantasy VI Kefka declares the lives of mortals insignificant finding no meaning in things like love and hope, and thus seeks to destroy the bonds of existence itself.
Yes that is revealed as his motivations towards the end of Final Fantasy 6. But upon his return to canon during Final Fantasy Dissidea he breaks off from the Chaos faction in order to try and become ruler of the world himself. Not just destroyer, but ruler. He DOES have a twisted nihilistic side, but he also proves capable of wanting more power and to be worshiped as a God.
Kefka is a backstabbing maniac. If he loses control, and there is about 99% chance that he will since he has almost no control, he will start attacking anyone. He will betray Seph and...like it or not...Kefka can probably take him out. Seph would fight Kefka to save his own ass.
And literally everyone in this battle is fully aware of that fact. Nicol Bolas and Mewtwo would probably focus all of their attention on taking out Kefka. If you're trying to argue that Kefka would ignore the iminent threat ahead of him, and simply hand waive away that he has a super psychic monster and a giant ass magic dragon trying to kill him in favor of going "Nah, I'd rather take the Bishi Villain who is my partner" then you have a very large uphill battle to climb. Because even if he's bat**** insane there's no way he attacks Sephiroth without also attacking everyone else at the same time.
If he is in character, he does not care about the tournament. He just wants to destroy. Even if he cared, it is too easy for him to lose control, and then all bets are off.
I disagree that he does not care about the tournament. He may be a nihilistic villain bent on destruction, but he has also shown shades of desire for power and worship. And I can think of no better way for him to accomplish that than to play along with a silly little tournament in order to establish himself as the God King of existence. At least in his mind.
Well, both Bolas and Seph will probably want to live pass this match and the best way to stop Kefka from murdering them will be a teamup.
Then, Bolas backstabbs Seph.
What is Sephiroth doesn't care? His mind is just as twisted as anyone else. He literally is detached from life. He's summoned great meteors to destroy the very planet he lived on not caring if he lived or died.
He would not have any reason to resist Kefka until the very end. And even then he wouldn't be doing it for self preservation, but so that the glory of ending all life would be HIS to claim.
It would also be hilariously out of character for Sephiroth, who JUST got betrayed by his official tag team partner, to suddenly trust his opponent, Nicol Bolas, wholeheartedly without question that he wouldn't get stabbed in the back as soon as Kefka was defeated.
If we are to agree that suddenly Kefka just destroys all magical power in the universe and leaves, then Nicol Bolas suddenly just becomes no more powerful than your average giant Final Fantasy Dragon, something that Sephiroth has been shown to defeat with a single swipe of his blade BEFORE he became a monster.
So there really wouldn't be any backstabbing to be had in that case. If Kefka gets rid of all magic, than Sephiroth is the best fighter in this battle hands down, and without any spell support from any of the other 3 I'd argue that Sephiroth takes them all handily.
But I doubt that would even happen. As Kefka would rather keep his power rather than destroy it just for the lulz. Even if he's crazy, he's not stupid.
This is how the current gaming environment is going to look after all the systems have had a chance to launch and which markets they will be appealing to.
PS4: Fanbase will consist of traditional gamers who just want a gaming console that will play the best and most diverse series of actual games while not focusing too much on extra crap or being too invested in one genre of game. This will be THE console for the average gamer/gamestop shopper who has varied tastes and isn't afraid to try something new.
XBO: Fanbase will consist of American college kids, guidos, "gamer girls" who play in their underwear for twitter pics and exclusively FPS players who will buy anything that plays in a first person view of your hands holding a gun.
WiiU: Fanbase will consist of families from the middle class, the inner cities, elderly communities or children younger than 13 as well as other old school gamers who still have a special place in their hearts for Link, Mario, Samus, Kirby, Donkey Kong, Sonic and Mega Man. This will be the "family console" that will make the most money out of any of them because the console is based around fun, family friendly games and not online play or being the bees nees of graphical excellence.
PC: Fanbase will consist of the raging anti-establishment neckbeards and hipsters who like the attention they get from trashing all other consoles because they are so edgey and tech savvy. Thus they will remain nestled in their little trollcaves decrying any advancement that any other console games have as "inferior" because they just threw down $1,000 on their new graphics chip that allows them to see in "even greater clarity" the graphics of their games that in reality look no different than anything the above 3 are going to offer.
The PC Gamers will continue to believe that they win every console war forever because they built their own system. XBO gamers will continue to believe that they win everything because they have Battlefield 4 and Halo. PS4 Gamers will continue to believe they win because they actually ARE a gaming console and don't need a bunch of extra bells and whistles to play a game. While Wii U gamers will continue not to give a crap so long as Nintendo keeps churning out games featuring all their favorite characters.
Yeah, but Dante has a thing for supernatural chicks - I can see no conceivable reason why he wouldn't work with her in this situation.
Also, don't play Devil May Cry 2.
Edit: Also, I did do some reading on Abaddon (I'm already familiar with Tezzeret), though most of what I know is based on information present in this thread.
My mistake, I figured since you mentioned Abaddon as "Whats-his-face" that you weren't even paying attention to who Dante was facing, as if his individual feats in a vacuum could just defeat anyone.
I guess the big question that will make up my mind here is, is there anything Dante and Bayonetta can do that can rip through armor that is capable of taking science fiction based super powered laser canon blasts and remain in tact, that also has become augmented with etherium technology from MTG?
If it's at least possible that they can do so, maybe they can win if they get rid of Tezzeret first?
My thought was its more of a hinderance, Example Team FF knows they have this, and (lets say it can work on their other forms) forces them to stay in a less powerful form (human) less they risk a 1 hit ko, such a stablaizing agent may provide a more interesting fight, if we preceeve pokemon as energy than the one winged angle is basically raw mako energy...
Here's how I feel about it, after a bit of review.
If we are to assume that Sephiroth and Kefka can defeat Mewtwo pretty easily due to using "dark type" moves, than I suppose it could be feasible that they could be "captured" in a Master Ball.
However, like Poring mentioned, Master Balls in Media are a lot different than Master Balls in the games, as Pikachu is able to dodge Master Balls en masse. While in the games, it's always a one shot instant capture. So I think we would need to treat the Master Balls like any other type of projectile, capable of being dodged.
I may be biased here due to voting for the Final Fantasy villains, but I don't think Master Balls could be used against them. Otherwise that's all Mewtwo has to do is temporarily incapacitate them in Master Balls and thus wins on a technicality. Even in monstrous forms they are still not Pokemon.
On the Reflect argument, I do believe that it would work against direct damaging psychic attacks. The only problem I see is with in-direct psychic attacks. If they work like status effects, I am leaning towards them not working just to how the boss mechanics work in Final Fantasy. But I can see arguments as to that not being applicable too.
I guess when it comes to Kefka's insanity, the question also has to be raised. With all the information uploaded into his mind about the situation and his opponents, would his desire to be the strongest and win the match be greater than his desire to just completely and utterly destroy everyone? After all, Kefka did completely destroy the world, but he did it in order to become it's King and rule over it mercilessly. So we know he has SOME form of ambition and/or desire for power and recognition.
Either way I wouldn't see Sephiroth "teaming" with Bolas in order to take down a greater threat. He's never really done that, as he'd rather just walk away and wash his hands of the whole tournament rather than try and fight Kefka for the sake of preventing more damage from being done.
That isn't an argument for Team Final Fantasy Villains obviously, just a realistic interpretation of what I think would happen if Kefka went completely balls out crazy. It would be up to Bolas to finish the job, rather than Sephiroth.
Alright, I placed my vote for team Crazy Supernatural Killers.
Why?
I don't know a damn thing about Bayonetta. This is based solely on Dante, and what I've read about Bayonetta in this thread.
Let's break Dante down as a fighter based solely on the first 3 games (since I have not played the 4th one, and as I understand it, DmC (the 5th one) nerfs him significantly).
Devil May Cry 1: Let us presume that Dante will be using the Sparda weapon, easily his most powerful Devil Arm. In the beginning of the game, you have Force Edge, which is a pretty weak PoS that's designed for what I presume is intended to help you learn the basics of combat before you get Alastor. Using Force Edge, the enemies you first fight against are relatively easy to beat. Using Sparda, it effectively OHKs them. Sparda is the sword that sealed away not only the ENTIRE DEMON REALM'S POWER, but the power of the individual who sealed the demon realm. That's a pretty powerful artifact. Now let's take a look at Sparda's Devil Trigger. In the three battles against Mundus, Sparda obtains a Devil Trigger mechanism that wasn't available before. In this form, Dante can fire either rapid single bolts or ridiculously powerful charged bolts of energy, fly through space at a hypersonic speed, summon a bigass ****ing dragon that severely harms the ruler of hell, has constant regeneration and a speed boost, and gets a weapon reach range of about 50 feet. In addition, during this game, Dante has displayed extraordinary acrobatic feats, ridiculous stamina in battle, superhuman durability (he lifted himself off the ground using no hands THROUGH a sword that had pinned him to the ground), the ability to withstand hellfire (Ifrit), the ability to shoot lightning and fire-enhanced grenades and bullets, and the ability to summon the very flames of hell, themselves, which are hot enough to melt enemies colder than absolute zero. He destroys the ruler of hell with a magic-imbued dual pistol shot with a slight power boost from another demon. He's conquered alternate realms, withstood electrocution under intense magic, and even fought swordsmen of equal or greater skill and come out on top in this game.
Let's look at what else Dante can do.
Devil May Cry 2: Okay, any Devil May Cry fan loathes the fact that this game exists. But here it is. While the standard bosses are none-too-impressive demons, the final boss is a former demon king, "The Despair Embodied", a flaming, angelic, androgynous figure that I can only presume is the summation of all negativity in the universe. And Dante kills it.
Here's where things start to match up to the power of the first game.
Devil May Cry 3: Let's talk about Styles. In Devil May Cry 3, Dante has 6 different fighting styles that he can use.
Swordmaster: Pretty self-explanatory. Lots of neat tricks with Devil Arms and powerful blows like Beowulf's Hammer and Agni & Rudra's fire tornado.
Gunslinger: Again, pretty self-explanatory. Various trick shots and gun melee/lots of bullets and explosions. Nothing to really write home about.
Trickster: This Style enables Dante to dash about and achieve temporary invulnerability due to his speed, even giving him the ability to move so quickly on land and through the air that it appears he is teleporting. (I know this has already been discussed, but I figured I would bring it up again.)
Royal Guard: This Style enables Dante to put up an impregnable shield for a short period of time and build up a sort of "guard point" meter thing (easiest way to explain it) upon getting hit each time he uses this shield. From about three feet away, he can then focus all of the energy from the attacks he received and dash forward to give a blow that channels the stored energy into his opponent for a single, mighty, crippling strike.
Doppelganger: Another fun Style - this basically enables Dante to create a shadow clone of himself that copies all of his actions and abilities. So take anything you know about Dante and double it.
Quicksilver: Probably one of the most powerful Devil May Cry mechanics ever created. Quicksilver is a little difficult to explain, so bear with me. In Quicksilver, Dante generates a field with the snap of his fingers. The field either: Surrounds him and makes him go incredibly fast, or: Surrounds him and prevents him from going incredibly slow while everything else is slowed way down. I'm inclined to believe it's the latter, as during the fight where you obtain Quicksilver, the enemy you battle generates small bubbles of time distortion that, when you touch them, slows you way down and summons spears at a "normal" speed to impale you. So, presuming that QuickSilver slows everything ELSE down, even if Dante's foes can see the future and teleport out of range, they would have to teleport before Dante even reached them, meaning due to the stasis field generated by QuickSilver, he would see them arriving in their teleport destination long before they even fully materialized.
In Devil May Cry 3, Dante has to almost constantly waves of demons, and if you've ever played Dante Must Die mode in a DMC game, you know how absolutely ridiculous it can get. To top it off, Dante's twin brother, Vergil, is also an enemy in this game. Vergil moves EVEN FASTER THAN DANTE(!!!) on a regular basis, using his katana to slice through air pockets, creating a vacuum of razor-sharp precision cuts that severely damages anyone they touch. Vergil also has access to Devil Trigger, which makes him EVEN FASTER, resulting in an absolutely silly sequence of him teleporting all over maps and creating said vacuum cuts in any position you're in when you're trying to evade said cuts. If Dante can beat somebody who can move so quickly that he can't be seen for extended periods of time, then I'm pretty sure an enemy's speed is absolutely not a factor here.
In addition:
Dante gets more powerful the more damage he deals and takes. He can transform into a demon of unparalleled power through Devil Trigger that he obtains by fighting. He's a master of dozens of weapons, both projectile and close combat. (In the original Devil May Cry series, he's half-demon, half-human; not half-demon, half-angel.) Dante's ties to what's important to him keep him fighting. He has defeated several demon overlords the size of skyscrapers whose powers are beyond the scope of imagination and displayed a propensity to totally *****slap anything else that got in his way in doing so.
Sure, Tezzeret may augment what's-his-face's armor and weapons a bit.
Then what?
Dante (and apparently Bayonetta)'s series thrives on the trope of a single, tiny humanoid kicking the **** out of gigantic, nearly omnipotent beings that threaten the very fabric of reality.
Dante wins this, hands-down, and if Bayonetta is anything like Dante, the Chaotic Geniuses stand no chance.
While this is great and informative, and makes me want to play some DMC games, I'd suggest you do a bit of research on who these guys are facing, or even both members of the team you're supporting.
We don't need another Doom thread, where one partner gets ignored in favor of how awesome the other guy is. This is a team tournament for a reason. So if Dante has no interest in working with Bayonetta, then I'm afraid Abaddon and Tezzerts inherent synergy would be greater than even Dante's individual achievements.
There are some things (Like Orbital Bombardment) that you just can't do anything about even IF you have a warning against them. He's just stuck, he's not dead... so the warning MUST have worked to ensure his survival.
Or he just takes orbital bombardments to the face on a daily basis like it's his morning shower. Then we're all ****ed.
I have to admit, the matches this week have me at the edge of my seat. It's like a party where everyone knows everyone.
I'm TRYING (really hard) to be more respectful, since my freak out last week. So I'm trying to be as open minded about everyone this week as possible. So if somebody has an argument that puts whoever I'm not voting for over the edge, I'll consider it.
Yeah, and Dante can die to generic enemy A... We're not going to devolve into using that argument, are we?
Seriously, How do you think Abaddon's Cheated death as many times as he has? It's the DIRECT Blessing of Tzeentch. It's kinda like Spidey-sense, except he gets a vision of what's about to happen, so he can change it.
That spidey sense sure didn't help him see those orbital bombardments from the Imperium of Man forcing him to be stuck on Cadia am I right? Bam! lol.
Nicol Bolas will have similar enchantment based buffs to benefit him and Mewtwo from Red Magic, giving them Haste. So I'll preemptively say it now that speed shouldn't be a factor in either teams side.
But when it comes to Protect, Shell and Reflect magic, those are all things that are normally attributed to white or green, so I don't think they have anything like that.
So as far as buffs go, Team Final Fantasy villains have an edge at the start.
Once the battle comes down, Bolas will have a wide range of counter and weakening magic, but I think any of those mundane spells could be resisted by Reflect or any psychic damaging spells would be dampened by Shell.
When it comes to straight up mind control or things like that, I'm not so confident, due to Draftguys argument of possible "Monster based" skills. It's hard to call on that one.
But they would have to try and get to Kefka first, because anything they do to Sephiroth would just be Esuna'd for a cure.
I'm assuming Kefka is playing the role of back up mage here as Sephiroth might have a personality weakness that prevents him from playing support like Kefka could.
Actually, considering end game bosses like Kefka an Sephiroth are immune to certain effects from their own universes like Confuse, Silence or Charm effects, I'm not sure they WOULD be totally susceptible to a mind breaking spell or not.
I dunno if that's just an inherent bonus that they get for being final bosses, or if we're assuming that is just plot armor used to make the final fights tougher, but I think it's something that should be answered, since Mewtwo and Bolas' ability to win this match easily kind of hinges on their ability to break their opponents minds, no?
I don't think I agree that Abaddon is faster than Dante during his Blitz Mode, Sokenzan would bestow the same amount of speed benefit to both of them, and I think Dante's established canon speed would be greater than Abaddon's.
I still don't think it would amount to much, but I do believe Dante to be the fastest person in this match, therefore the quickest one to take down Tezzeret before he gets too out of control.
Bayonetta kicking a bus in the face of a God is impressive. But as far as I understand about 40K not nearly as impressive as ripping a Land Raiser in half, which is like a futuristic inter galactic super tank, making the bus kicking look weak in comparison.
Bayonetta's only hope is going to be her Hair Magic. As I just don't think there is ANYONE in this current match up who can match the strength and endurance of Abaddon.
They are gonna have to out smart him somehow, and that's why it's so important to take out Tezzeret first.
Another thing to consider, Sephiroth and Kefka have access to Reflect magic, so mind control/crushing spells wouldn't exactly have an immediate effect. The battle would have to rage on for a few "rounds" before Team Final Fantasy Villains were susceptible to mental attack or even magic attacks in general.
This gives them a helluva advantage, at least for the first few moments of battle.
Sephiroth's mind isn't that well put together, and Bolas will know this. He'll crush Seph's mind and turn him into a pawn (which he is well-known for doing) to use in taking down Kefka, then get Mewtwo to help hold him in place while the two pummel him into submission with TK and Blightning.
Do you think Sephiroths non-existent mental state actually hinders his ability to resist mental attack? Interesting. That could come into play if you're right about that. I dunno the science behind such a confrontation.
I view Abaddon as more like just a Warhammer version of Doomsday. Incredibly tough, strong and having some ultra strong equipment. But for all of his incredible physical gifts, he doesn't really have that much in the way of psychic, magical or even intellectual gifts. In my mind he suffers the same weaknesses as any other brute contestant, being that he can't outsmart someone like Iron Man or Dr. Doom.
Dante and Bayonetta just don't have much going for them considering they are just basically a different kind of Kratos/Dante team up. If they can't win through brute force alone, they just aren't winning. And that's why I've been on the Chaotic Genius side of things.
To be fair I'm only ASSUMING that this is a possible outcome of the battle with Kefka involved. Obviously during his final boss fights in Final Fantasy 6, despite him being a "God of Magic" your party has full and unrestricted access to magic. So facing Kefka doesn't automatically mean no magic allowed. I was merely entertaining a proposed scenario that a lot of people thought was plausible.
Clearly the poll disagrees with this sentiment however, so I'd really like to hear more from the other supporters of Team Psychic Monsters.
Except you and I have very different interpretations on how to stay true to the Final Fantasy Villains character.
Simply put, if we can concede that Kefka can and would defeat Sephiroth in battle, or that he is the ruler of all Magic and capable of destroying it at a whim, Sephiroth knows this, and thus knows that fighting back would be pointless, even if he has a messiah complex.
In addition, assuming if he even WOULD decide to fight Kefka, like you said, he has a messiah complex, I. E. "I can do it alone". He wouldn't even consider asking Bolas for help, or even accepting anyone elses help.
You are clearly mistaken that a Sephiroth/Bolas team is possible here. It just isn't going to happen. If your are being true to the character of Sephiroth.
You're gonna have to think of a different argument to justify a win for Mewtwo/Nicol Bolas. Because you're current crop of argument's aren't convincing anyone. If your argument hinges on the fact that Team Psychic Monsters NEEDS Sephiroth to fight Kefka in order to win, then you're not voting for Team Psychic Monsters winning. You're voting for a technicality to happen that allows them to win due to plot armor, not on their actual merits and abilities.
This kind of argument didn't work for saying Static would defect to Team Basketballers, and it didn't work for saying that Hulk would team up with Iron Man & Boba Fett would all work together to fight Doomsday. And it makes even LESS sense here than it did for the other two match ups.
If your argument is that Kefka is strong enough to take everyone all by his self, than that would still constitute a win for Team Final Fantasy Villains. Because even if Sephiroth "died" fighting Kefka, everyone else would as well.
Case in point, it looks like there is only two ways this battle is being visualized to happen.
1) Either Kefka is so crazy and careless he drains the world of all magic and leaves. leading to a Sephiroth win because he is the best hand to hand fighter with a sword that cuts through skyscrapers, while the opponents are nerfed.
2) Or Kefka goes completely insane and bent on destruction, attacking everyone at once. I think every single person here except for one of us would agree that Sephiroth would not team with Nicol Bolas unless under some sort of mind control from Bolas. And Kefka is either so powerful he defeats everyone by himself, or he defeats Bolas and Mewtwo before Sephiroth. Either way, leading into a technical victory for Team Final Fantasy Villains.
I'm gonna need to hear an actual argument in favor of Mewtwo and Bolas using their own abilities to be convinced that FF Villains lose. Not some mumbo jumbo about how Kefka is too crazy to fight or that Sephiroth acts out of character and teams up with people he knows are his opponents. People were doing a better job trying to convince me based off the psychic attack arguments than assuming Kefka and Sephiroth would instantly implode as a team.
This still doesn't explain how Sephiroth suddenly decides to fight his own partner. Sure, Kefka wants to destroy the universe, so does Sephiroth. They have a common goal.
Kefka is bat**** crazy. He's not going to target Sephiroth, just like he's not going to target Mewtwo or Nicol Bolas specifically. If we are to accept your premise, than you have to be willing to admit that Kefka is trying to destroy EVERYONE.
Therefore, Sephiroth would be the one more likely to sneak off and let his "partner" do the damage first. Not, Nicol Bolas. Bolas knows he has to defeat Kefka to win. Sephiroth doesn't have to do anything to Kefka unless Kekfa takes out Bolas and Mewtwo by himself. Sephiroth has no incentive to sacrifice himself or save his own life in the front lines of battle knowing that his opponent's are still alive.
It doesn't make a lick of sense for Kefka to go after Sephiroth right off the bat, and makes even less sense for Sephiroth to develop some sort of noble personality where he feels it's important for him to fight Kefka first and not use the chaos to his advantage.
Yes that is revealed as his motivations towards the end of Final Fantasy 6. But upon his return to canon during Final Fantasy Dissidea he breaks off from the Chaos faction in order to try and become ruler of the world himself. Not just destroyer, but ruler. He DOES have a twisted nihilistic side, but he also proves capable of wanting more power and to be worshiped as a God.
And literally everyone in this battle is fully aware of that fact. Nicol Bolas and Mewtwo would probably focus all of their attention on taking out Kefka. If you're trying to argue that Kefka would ignore the iminent threat ahead of him, and simply hand waive away that he has a super psychic monster and a giant ass magic dragon trying to kill him in favor of going "Nah, I'd rather take the Bishi Villain who is my partner" then you have a very large uphill battle to climb. Because even if he's bat**** insane there's no way he attacks Sephiroth without also attacking everyone else at the same time.
I disagree that he does not care about the tournament. He may be a nihilistic villain bent on destruction, but he has also shown shades of desire for power and worship. And I can think of no better way for him to accomplish that than to play along with a silly little tournament in order to establish himself as the God King of existence. At least in his mind.
What is Sephiroth doesn't care? His mind is just as twisted as anyone else. He literally is detached from life. He's summoned great meteors to destroy the very planet he lived on not caring if he lived or died.
He would not have any reason to resist Kefka until the very end. And even then he wouldn't be doing it for self preservation, but so that the glory of ending all life would be HIS to claim.
It would also be hilariously out of character for Sephiroth, who JUST got betrayed by his official tag team partner, to suddenly trust his opponent, Nicol Bolas, wholeheartedly without question that he wouldn't get stabbed in the back as soon as Kefka was defeated.
If we are to agree that suddenly Kefka just destroys all magical power in the universe and leaves, then Nicol Bolas suddenly just becomes no more powerful than your average giant Final Fantasy Dragon, something that Sephiroth has been shown to defeat with a single swipe of his blade BEFORE he became a monster.
So there really wouldn't be any backstabbing to be had in that case. If Kefka gets rid of all magic, than Sephiroth is the best fighter in this battle hands down, and without any spell support from any of the other 3 I'd argue that Sephiroth takes them all handily.
But I doubt that would even happen. As Kefka would rather keep his power rather than destroy it just for the lulz. Even if he's crazy, he's not stupid.
PS4: Fanbase will consist of traditional gamers who just want a gaming console that will play the best and most diverse series of actual games while not focusing too much on extra crap or being too invested in one genre of game. This will be THE console for the average gamer/gamestop shopper who has varied tastes and isn't afraid to try something new.
XBO: Fanbase will consist of American college kids, guidos, "gamer girls" who play in their underwear for twitter pics and exclusively FPS players who will buy anything that plays in a first person view of your hands holding a gun.
WiiU: Fanbase will consist of families from the middle class, the inner cities, elderly communities or children younger than 13 as well as other old school gamers who still have a special place in their hearts for Link, Mario, Samus, Kirby, Donkey Kong, Sonic and Mega Man. This will be the "family console" that will make the most money out of any of them because the console is based around fun, family friendly games and not online play or being the bees nees of graphical excellence.
PC: Fanbase will consist of the raging anti-establishment neckbeards and hipsters who like the attention they get from trashing all other consoles because they are so edgey and tech savvy. Thus they will remain nestled in their little trollcaves decrying any advancement that any other console games have as "inferior" because they just threw down $1,000 on their new graphics chip that allows them to see in "even greater clarity" the graphics of their games that in reality look no different than anything the above 3 are going to offer.
The PC Gamers will continue to believe that they win every console war forever because they built their own system. XBO gamers will continue to believe that they win everything because they have Battlefield 4 and Halo. PS4 Gamers will continue to believe they win because they actually ARE a gaming console and don't need a bunch of extra bells and whistles to play a game. While Wii U gamers will continue not to give a crap so long as Nintendo keeps churning out games featuring all their favorite characters.
Who wins? You decide.
Trolling Infraction
Kahedron
My mistake, I figured since you mentioned Abaddon as "Whats-his-face" that you weren't even paying attention to who Dante was facing, as if his individual feats in a vacuum could just defeat anyone.
I guess the big question that will make up my mind here is, is there anything Dante and Bayonetta can do that can rip through armor that is capable of taking science fiction based super powered laser canon blasts and remain in tact, that also has become augmented with etherium technology from MTG?
If it's at least possible that they can do so, maybe they can win if they get rid of Tezzeret first?
Here's how I feel about it, after a bit of review.
If we are to assume that Sephiroth and Kefka can defeat Mewtwo pretty easily due to using "dark type" moves, than I suppose it could be feasible that they could be "captured" in a Master Ball.
However, like Poring mentioned, Master Balls in Media are a lot different than Master Balls in the games, as Pikachu is able to dodge Master Balls en masse. While in the games, it's always a one shot instant capture. So I think we would need to treat the Master Balls like any other type of projectile, capable of being dodged.
On the Reflect argument, I do believe that it would work against direct damaging psychic attacks. The only problem I see is with in-direct psychic attacks. If they work like status effects, I am leaning towards them not working just to how the boss mechanics work in Final Fantasy. But I can see arguments as to that not being applicable too.
I guess when it comes to Kefka's insanity, the question also has to be raised. With all the information uploaded into his mind about the situation and his opponents, would his desire to be the strongest and win the match be greater than his desire to just completely and utterly destroy everyone? After all, Kefka did completely destroy the world, but he did it in order to become it's King and rule over it mercilessly. So we know he has SOME form of ambition and/or desire for power and recognition.
Either way I wouldn't see Sephiroth "teaming" with Bolas in order to take down a greater threat. He's never really done that, as he'd rather just walk away and wash his hands of the whole tournament rather than try and fight Kefka for the sake of preventing more damage from being done.
That isn't an argument for Team Final Fantasy Villains obviously, just a realistic interpretation of what I think would happen if Kefka went completely balls out crazy. It would be up to Bolas to finish the job, rather than Sephiroth.
While this is great and informative, and makes me want to play some DMC games, I'd suggest you do a bit of research on who these guys are facing, or even both members of the team you're supporting.
We don't need another Doom thread, where one partner gets ignored in favor of how awesome the other guy is. This is a team tournament for a reason. So if Dante has no interest in working with Bayonetta, then I'm afraid Abaddon and Tezzerts inherent synergy would be greater than even Dante's individual achievements.
Or he just takes orbital bombardments to the face on a daily basis like it's his morning shower. Then we're all ****ed.
I'm TRYING (really hard) to be more respectful, since my freak out last week. So I'm trying to be as open minded about everyone this week as possible. So if somebody has an argument that puts whoever I'm not voting for over the edge, I'll consider it.
That spidey sense sure didn't help him see those orbital bombardments from the Imperium of Man forcing him to be stuck on Cadia am I right? Bam! lol.
But when it comes to Protect, Shell and Reflect magic, those are all things that are normally attributed to white or green, so I don't think they have anything like that.
So as far as buffs go, Team Final Fantasy villains have an edge at the start.
Once the battle comes down, Bolas will have a wide range of counter and weakening magic, but I think any of those mundane spells could be resisted by Reflect or any psychic damaging spells would be dampened by Shell.
When it comes to straight up mind control or things like that, I'm not so confident, due to Draftguys argument of possible "Monster based" skills. It's hard to call on that one.
But they would have to try and get to Kefka first, because anything they do to Sephiroth would just be Esuna'd for a cure.
I'm assuming Kefka is playing the role of back up mage here as Sephiroth might have a personality weakness that prevents him from playing support like Kefka could.
Actually, considering end game bosses like Kefka an Sephiroth are immune to certain effects from their own universes like Confuse, Silence or Charm effects, I'm not sure they WOULD be totally susceptible to a mind breaking spell or not.
I dunno if that's just an inherent bonus that they get for being final bosses, or if we're assuming that is just plot armor used to make the final fights tougher, but I think it's something that should be answered, since Mewtwo and Bolas' ability to win this match easily kind of hinges on their ability to break their opponents minds, no?
I still don't think it would amount to much, but I do believe Dante to be the fastest person in this match, therefore the quickest one to take down Tezzeret before he gets too out of control.
Bayonetta kicking a bus in the face of a God is impressive. But as far as I understand about 40K not nearly as impressive as ripping a Land Raiser in half, which is like a futuristic inter galactic super tank, making the bus kicking look weak in comparison.
Bayonetta's only hope is going to be her Hair Magic. As I just don't think there is ANYONE in this current match up who can match the strength and endurance of Abaddon.
They are gonna have to out smart him somehow, and that's why it's so important to take out Tezzeret first.
This gives them a helluva advantage, at least for the first few moments of battle.
Do you think Sephiroths non-existent mental state actually hinders his ability to resist mental attack? Interesting. That could come into play if you're right about that. I dunno the science behind such a confrontation.