Lol, some time ago I even saw a Legacy merfolk deck that splashed white for a stonefore mystic toolbox in the sideboard. Probably for the mirrormtach or something, and yes it won a tourney/daily or w/e, so it wasn't a terrible idea ;). Any deck could potentially put a SFM toolbox in their sideboard, or just main deck, as it only takes up 6-7 slots in the deck. Can we please stop talking about SFM though. It will never come off the list, ever. It's so obvous it's not even funny
Myeh, if events lasted hours longer because of players slowplaying, Top/eggs would not be banned. It's a totally different thing.
Also, with top it is very hard to determine if a player is actually playing slow or really thinking about his options. They could be faking it to just eat away another minute to force a draw. It's just dull that that would even be possible.
I've played high tide in Legacy on an event and one game the whole tourney had to wait for me to finish my combo for about 10+ minutes. It was the second turn of five that were allowed after time was called. And the sad thing was I actually fizzled by forgetting a thing. All players were around the table watching us, which made me pretty nervous as it was my first tourney :P. Mistakes were made.
The time thing is a legitimate reason to ban a card. Period. I still have to see one argument that convinces me otherwise.
Myeh BBE wasn't really banned because it was too powerful on itself, but it was one of the few cards, and the strongest at that, that din't hurt other decks if it was banned. So yeah, it is staying on the ban list until the meta shifts in such a way that Jund could use a huge boost and it's been tested to make sure, in that meta, Jund won't be too powerful.
Anyway, there is never going to be a card 'like' AV. And AV itself can't come of the list as long as Twin exists. Period. WotC won't print a draw spell like AV because that exceeds the power level of what they're aiming at in standard. Additionally, even if they would, it would still help Twin too much and probably would need to be banned.
The only way it could work is if they printed a draw spell that's off-color. I don't see that happening either. Draw and Go fans: Check out legacy. In the current meta a pure draw/go deck is not viable and thus not really part of Modern top tier. There are other formats where control has more too offer. Modern has different control decks, or decks that only have a control element. I think it works fine.
But, like I said, I'm not saying it's a huge problem now. I do think it should be watched.
No, if a 5-mana 2-toughness creature is making problems, it is only possible when there are other things in that deck that are more problematic. It can't even break the turn 4 rule. It is totally safe and doesn't need to be watched. It is just a win-con and every deck simply needs a way to win.
Yeap. But is it okay that decks that were already working, had potential to grow, and already contained win cons can just add a kiki for an extra random 'oops, I win' combo? I think it's very dull and doesn't make the format any more interesting. It's probably personal and that's why I clearly said it's not a problem right now.
With any other combo that could be added to certain decks I don't think I would have a problem. The 'oops, I win' factor that's being added to more and more decks, is just strange. The fact that it's only a 2 toughness creature has nothing to do with it. Answers are NEVER a reason to ban or not ban a card. This has been pointed out multiple times. There is an answer to everything. Not a reason to not keep an eye on a certain card.
The situation now compares in no way to a year ago, remember that. Modern grew at least twice as large as it was in a year if we look at prizes and GPs. So of course they will make a larger print run.
Avoiding another Chronicles means they don't want to flood the market. Which won't happen by making certain cards mythic like tarmo. Look at Liliana. Printed only one time in a huge print run and it has a very high prize. Now, I don't think MM2 will have as big a print run as a core set of course. Which further points out what I'm trying to say here.
By the way where did you read that they made MM1 a small print run (source?) because they don't want another Chronicles? I remember them saying they made a small print run to test the waters. Either way, it did not crash the market at all, it made most staples even more expensive. Hence they are able to make a bigger print run with MM2. They did exactly the same with commander. I pointed this out a couple of times already in this topic.
2011 Commander limited print run to test the waters. It turned out great and became popular, so they started designing the second installment. They take two years to do that. 2012 they released Commanders' arsenal, to keep things warm, and in 2013 the second Commander installment was released. Which wasn't a limited print run at all. Same thing happens with Modern right now. 2013 MM1, 2014 even deck, 2015 probably MM2 with a less limited print run.
Thinking that a normall print run of MM2 would crash the market is silly. They can make any card they deem collectible a mythic like they did with Tarmo. That way nothing will 'crash'. I don't think a lot of people would care about fetch dropping to around $25 except a small group of people that traded them when they were at an all time high. But even those people are mostly pro players or serious players who shouldn't really care about losing a little bit. They took the risk by buying fetch when they were insanely expensive because they wanted them as soon as possible while fully knowing a reprint is coming.
Either way we both cannot know for sure. I see it a bit different than you though :). We'll see what happens in 2015.
That's one of the RW decks. Dega can also play it. RW lockdown can play it. Well, we know POD can. And I wouldn't be surpriced if more decks are going to use it in the future. Besides that. Having at least four (and probably more) decks that run the same sort of combo, is not a good thing at all.
But, like I said, I'm not saying it's a huge problem now. I do think it should be watched.
Nah sorry I probably wasn't clear in my reasoning. Comparing bolt/snap to kiki is just really really silly. I'm not even going to try and give any reason why that is.
Twin may be the best deck at this moment. The question is do we really want to see more decks that just add that little infi combo, just because it's so easy to do and makes eveyr deck that can do it much better?
I was mirely saying it could/should be on the radar for a ban in case it gets any worse. Not saying it should be immediately banned. At this moment there's not a real problem. I'm even one to say that the current meta is really awesome :). I just see kiki added to more decks lately and I don't like it one bit.
Funny though. Imagine if Kiki was as much used as bolt/snap. It's just such a silly comparison
I think Kiki should be on the radar for a possible ban. Red decks are beginning to just add the kiki combo as an additional wincon. I really do not like that. I've seen RW prison decklists with a kiki combo, and even a Dega list with Kiki. I don't think it is good for Modern at all if people start using kiki in random decks, just because it makes the decks that much better. If this goes on, it wouldn't surprise me if kiki got the banhammer.
I like scepter of dominance very much. Fits my build pretty good, since I deny a lot of land by taxing, and denying with tec edge/ghost/scrying/Ajani. Dominance could be a nice one- or two-off. I think I'll give it a try :). As a one-off it would act like a 4th Ajani in my list.
I like your list Mark. I only wonder if the one-off Runed Halo is really useful. Without draw engines etc. I think playing one-offs is questionable if they are not a 4th or 5th version of another card if you know what I mean.
About the UW version: Mono W control is all about enchantments and has almost exactly the same core as that UW deck. RW prison lists run a lot of different cards and has a totally different core in each version. Think Mono W thread fits better because of that, but maybe it could use its own thread yeah.
Do you have some results with your new list already Mark? Curious to see how it does
I like these types of decks very much. They hate the current meta very well, and with the correct sideboards it is possible to win from combo/control. Controlish matchups are still the toughest I think. I run 4x Ghost Quarter and 4 tec-edge to battle those kind of decks. It's very satisfying to be able to kill one of there two lands they left open to deny them of their counters :P.
1 life per turn is not a lot. With soul sisters you will gain more life than that each turn already. That 1 life extra every turn won't make the deck stronger sorry ;). Most of the time you'll have two sisters on the board. Casting one creature gains you two life and triggers ajani twice. Then there's Spectral Procession which will gain you six life with two sisters on the board.
Besides, I never saw Ajani as a finisher. More like a gigantic wall that's more or less impossible to pass, giving us more time to gain life safely and win by flying critters+honor. I can't remember a single game where I actually finished with a huge ajani.
What about Mystical Teachings? That is a real control/permission deck. I never see it anymore. Used to play against it a couple of times about a year/year and a half ago. I guess it's not really viable in the current meta? Very cool pure control deck though.
Modern is Modern :). We see a lot of decks that have multiple strategies or combined forms of magic. Maybe it's just a thing in Modern times. Like in music how genres get influenced by one another, creating new (sub-)genres. I don't think there ever will be a lot of pure control decks in Modern. Only control elements within certain decks, or control decks like Prison/Hate etc.
Also, there's still much room for new decks to enter the meta. There are a lot of rogue decks, and who knows more control decks will enter the meta at some point. I just don't expect them to be standard draw-go control/permission decks.
MM2 is a long ways away. MM1 had cards over a 7 year period. It ended at Alara. So, if we use the past product as an example, MM2 would need 7ish years of cards to reprint while also leaving sets out because they are currently in standard. We have Zendikar, Scars, Innistrad, RTR, and Theros right now. That means we still have a long ways to go til another MM2 product can be made. Not to mention wizards will never create a product like MM2 with a print run so large to purposely crash the market. They aren't dumb. They will make reprints but prices wont crash too much.
We are not sure they will have the same pattern for MM2. MM1's goal is to add copies of old cards that have less copies than new cards. That's why some older cards (Vendilion Clique, Cryptic Command) are nearing the price range of new cards (Liliana of the Veil, Snapcaster Mage). For MM2, I can see them reprinting cards from MM1 that they don't want to enter the Standard format (Goyf, Bob, etc.), add some left out cards during MM1 (Damnation, Bitterblossom, etc.), and a few new cards that have sky rocketed (Spellskite, Liliana of the Veil, etc.). The other cards can slowly be reprinted in Standard sets.
This. No way they are going to wait six years for another MM lol.
About RW prison: I run my take on it without fetch too and it works perfectly well. For a two color deck fetch isn't really needed. Deck filtering is more or less a fable, so no need to play fetch for that reason. I agree with redemption there. Still, I think it's much better for a game to have more accessible prizes of at least important lands. I think the inevitable fetch reprints will make manabases in Modern decks a lot cheaper. There is no reason for WotC to not give MM2 a much bigger print run. MM1 was to test the waters to see if Modern would become popular. I think it did and in a way nobody saw coming. One reason why it will never be like Chronicles is because now there is a Mythic rarity.
Good point. Though that would be another reason to not unban AV. Why would they scale up card draw in Modern by adding AV while scaling it down in newer sets?
Redemption, I got to ask. You do realize fetches and other staples do actually get reprinted sooner or later? It is going to happen and it will lower prizes hopefully. Nothing wrong with that. WotC doesn't care about speculators, so the anger you are refering too will just replace the anger there is now because of the prizes ;). Supply/Demand applies here. Reprint = more supply vs same demand = drop in prizes. If Modern keeps growing in this same rate, MM 2 won't be a big print run, it will be a huge print run. It's WotC's second cash cow.
Also, with top it is very hard to determine if a player is actually playing slow or really thinking about his options. They could be faking it to just eat away another minute to force a draw. It's just dull that that would even be possible.
I've played high tide in Legacy on an event and one game the whole tourney had to wait for me to finish my combo for about 10+ minutes. It was the second turn of five that were allowed after time was called. And the sad thing was I actually fizzled by forgetting a thing. All players were around the table watching us, which made me pretty nervous as it was my first tourney :P. Mistakes were made.
The time thing is a legitimate reason to ban a card. Period. I still have to see one argument that convinces me otherwise.
Anyway, there is never going to be a card 'like' AV. And AV itself can't come of the list as long as Twin exists. Period. WotC won't print a draw spell like AV because that exceeds the power level of what they're aiming at in standard. Additionally, even if they would, it would still help Twin too much and probably would need to be banned.
The only way it could work is if they printed a draw spell that's off-color. I don't see that happening either. Draw and Go fans: Check out legacy. In the current meta a pure draw/go deck is not viable and thus not really part of Modern top tier. There are other formats where control has more too offer. Modern has different control decks, or decks that only have a control element. I think it works fine.
Yeap. But is it okay that decks that were already working, had potential to grow, and already contained win cons can just add a kiki for an extra random 'oops, I win' combo? I think it's very dull and doesn't make the format any more interesting. It's probably personal and that's why I clearly said it's not a problem right now.
With any other combo that could be added to certain decks I don't think I would have a problem. The 'oops, I win' factor that's being added to more and more decks, is just strange. The fact that it's only a 2 toughness creature has nothing to do with it. Answers are NEVER a reason to ban or not ban a card. This has been pointed out multiple times. There is an answer to everything. Not a reason to not keep an eye on a certain card.
Avoiding another Chronicles means they don't want to flood the market. Which won't happen by making certain cards mythic like tarmo. Look at Liliana. Printed only one time in a huge print run and it has a very high prize. Now, I don't think MM2 will have as big a print run as a core set of course. Which further points out what I'm trying to say here.
By the way where did you read that they made MM1 a small print run (source?) because they don't want another Chronicles? I remember them saying they made a small print run to test the waters. Either way, it did not crash the market at all, it made most staples even more expensive. Hence they are able to make a bigger print run with MM2. They did exactly the same with commander. I pointed this out a couple of times already in this topic.
2011 Commander limited print run to test the waters. It turned out great and became popular, so they started designing the second installment. They take two years to do that. 2012 they released Commanders' arsenal, to keep things warm, and in 2013 the second Commander installment was released. Which wasn't a limited print run at all. Same thing happens with Modern right now. 2013 MM1, 2014 even deck, 2015 probably MM2 with a less limited print run.
Thinking that a normall print run of MM2 would crash the market is silly. They can make any card they deem collectible a mythic like they did with Tarmo. That way nothing will 'crash'. I don't think a lot of people would care about fetch dropping to around $25 except a small group of people that traded them when they were at an all time high. But even those people are mostly pro players or serious players who shouldn't really care about losing a little bit. They took the risk by buying fetch when they were insanely expensive because they wanted them as soon as possible while fully knowing a reprint is coming.
Either way we both cannot know for sure. I see it a bit different than you though :). We'll see what happens in 2015.
But, like I said, I'm not saying it's a huge problem now. I do think it should be watched.
Twin may be the best deck at this moment. The question is do we really want to see more decks that just add that little infi combo, just because it's so easy to do and makes eveyr deck that can do it much better?
I was mirely saying it could/should be on the radar for a ban in case it gets any worse. Not saying it should be immediately banned. At this moment there's not a real problem. I'm even one to say that the current meta is really awesome :). I just see kiki added to more decks lately and I don't like it one bit.
Funny though. Imagine if Kiki was as much used as bolt/snap. It's just such a silly comparison
I like your list Mark. I only wonder if the one-off Runed Halo is really useful. Without draw engines etc. I think playing one-offs is questionable if they are not a 4th or 5th version of another card if you know what I mean.
About the UW version: Mono W control is all about enchantments and has almost exactly the same core as that UW deck. RW prison lists run a lot of different cards and has a totally different core in each version. Think Mono W thread fits better because of that, but maybe it could use its own thread yeah.
Do you have some results with your new list already Mark? Curious to see how it does
I like these types of decks very much. They hate the current meta very well, and with the correct sideboards it is possible to win from combo/control. Controlish matchups are still the toughest I think. I run 4x Ghost Quarter and 4 tec-edge to battle those kind of decks. It's very satisfying to be able to kill one of there two lands they left open to deny them of their counters :P.
Besides, I never saw Ajani as a finisher. More like a gigantic wall that's more or less impossible to pass, giving us more time to gain life safely and win by flying critters+honor. I can't remember a single game where I actually finished with a huge ajani.
Modern is Modern :). We see a lot of decks that have multiple strategies or combined forms of magic. Maybe it's just a thing in Modern times. Like in music how genres get influenced by one another, creating new (sub-)genres. I don't think there ever will be a lot of pure control decks in Modern. Only control elements within certain decks, or control decks like Prison/Hate etc.
Also, there's still much room for new decks to enter the meta. There are a lot of rogue decks, and who knows more control decks will enter the meta at some point. I just don't expect them to be standard draw-go control/permission decks.
This. No way they are going to wait six years for another MM lol.
About RW prison: I run my take on it without fetch too and it works perfectly well. For a two color deck fetch isn't really needed. Deck filtering is more or less a fable, so no need to play fetch for that reason. I agree with redemption there. Still, I think it's much better for a game to have more accessible prizes of at least important lands. I think the inevitable fetch reprints will make manabases in Modern decks a lot cheaper. There is no reason for WotC to not give MM2 a much bigger print run. MM1 was to test the waters to see if Modern would become popular. I think it did and in a way nobody saw coming. One reason why it will never be like Chronicles is because now there is a Mythic rarity.
Have a source btw? Interested to read.