Did it ever occur to you that neither cockatrice nor tournaments existed back when Magic was first printed? Did you ever think about maybe playing it with a small group of friends like God intended, occasionally dueling random strangers just to see what crazy new deck they might have that you've never seen before? Suddenly, it won't seem like such a waste of your time.
I think you missed the point. I quit 2 years ago because I was spending too much time thinking about and doing Magic.
This sounds sort of like someone who has played an MMO for a very long time, and then realizes how much money they have spent on the game over the years. Honestly, there's nothing crazy or wrong about owning 30 grand in mtg card product, especially if that is mostly from legacy and vintage. That kind of a collection is something that develops over a very long time.
I am a compulsive person and I had a similar problem with Star Wars Galaxies (before it was ruined). I had a similar revelation then, sold my character for $500 and never looked back. That is part of the reason I was able to look at this as a similar problem and make the change I needed to; I'd done it before to good effect. I will never again play an MMORPG.
just my two cents though: Don't sell your cards, even if you don't ever decide to come back playing don't sell them, why? Because since you are a physician, a profession which should get you a fair amount of income, 30 grand is not what is going to change your life,
I understand where you are coming from but that doesn't work. I've been in the game since Beta, and I am finally at the point where I am almost out....and there is only one way out...GET RID OF EVERY CARD YOU OWN. Do not leave a trace of MTG in your home. A lot of people including myself (until recently) don't understand the level of addiction that MTG can produce in long term players.
It truly is like crack or alcohol....once you quit, you can never look back. Recovering alcoholics do not leave whiskey in their home, and recovering MTG addicts shouldn't leave any cards in their homes either. Strangely enough, it's not as bad for people who are only a year or 2 into the game. It's the guys like myself who started way back at Alpha/Beta era.
If you are quitting, then quit properly...Once all your cards are gone, you will probably never muster up the strength to go out and regain all the cards you once had. That's why you have to get rid of it ALL.
I didn't need to get rid of all of my cards and I am fine. Yes, that does increase the temptation some but Magic isn't like alcohol or another drug in its level of harm and I have been able to hold back any urges to get back into it on a grand scale.
I like this thread, real people sharing their love and struggle with this game. Its also interesting how this thread pops into my life again as I get ready to get out of magic again...Oh Richard Garfield how you toy with my emotions.
Yeah, not to beat a dead horse, but I NEVER understood why competitive Magic players didn't just play poker instead...
I have a degree in Math and Physics and love Poker and am fairly decent at it but I don't really have time for that either. I know you weren't suggesting that for me, however.
Your post really hit home for me. I'm also 34, a PhD, with a wife and a life and all that. I'm also sitting on a collection that seems to be getting more and more valuable each year, that I play with less and less. Tournaments are possible, but I just don't love it any more because of the time commitment.
It finally hit me--I really only play for fun any more. But I also like to collect. So keep collecting! Sell what you don't love and keep the rest. My play group is super casual. We play 50 card EDH with 5 rares max. It's ridiculously relaxed, cheap, creative, and the most fun I've had in magic for years. I have 8-10 of these decks, a couple boxes of my favorite legacy decks and cubes, and am in the process of selling the rest off. I think this is a sustainable state as I move into my late 30s and beyond. I love magic and it's been a part of my life since 1994 when I was 12 years old. It's the best game that's ever been invented and means different things to different people at different points in your life.
I've kept most of my collection except the Power 9 and don't plan on selling anything more. I don't really have friends that play much Magic or that wouldn't prefer doing something else when we're together so I play from time to time, mostly EDH.
I was very social at events and that is something I miss. However, there are better social outlets without all of the smelly and unfriendly people that are mostly male. Certainly not all Magic players are smelly, but the ratio is higher than the general population.
I'm so glad you bumped this...
1. There's a fear of missing out...
2. You can't stop until you've completed something. ...
3. These cycles repeat. ...
4. Sometimes, you're just the kind of person that will stop at nothing to be the best at Magic. ...
Edit: Also, get off your butt and start playing that strat!...
I'm glad you're glad.
Your numbered items are all great
HAHA! I should learn from my dad for some father-son time
...Curse of Strahd was recently released for D&D5E, defiantly need to get my hands on that. Plus Pathfinder has some new material out I've been meaning to look at, like Occult Adventures. The price of those books often equals a deck of Pauper cards, plus I love perusing through them when their not in the use. Eh, I'll figure something out. Magic, as it stands, beat me over the head with its obsession stick - it's time to beat back!
---
P.S. Even though this is a Necrothread, I'm really glad someone dug it up. Loved reading it all!
I loved D&D before I loved Magic and my kids enjoy it too. We don't play much but it is fun when we do.
I necroed it.
I agree with what you (TRAMD) have decided and what others have stated in the comments...for now, don't sell your cards...
As has also been said, it might be fun to build a cube from what you own and put the rest in storage...
Again, not selling the rest of my cards.
I don't really enjoy limited, I am a constructed guy all the way.
Necro here. I can't believe that it has been almost 2 years since I posted this. I really did quit Magic when I posted this and have mostly not looked back. I have played about 3 times in the past 2 years, just casual EDH at my house with friends or my kids. I ran into a Magic acquaintance and he was telling me about the "Eldrazi Menace" so I started looking up some things online and started thinking about Magic again. I Googled this thread because I wanted to reaffirm why I left the game and make sure I didn't go back because life has been better without it. I read and do active things more with my kids. My relationship with my wife is markedly improved and we are both in better shape and happier. I am too busy at work but that is good overall. The guitar still sits in my basement, unplayed. I still haven't put up that basketball hoop. I have been working out more. I made my hobby console video games for a time but that was also too much so I quit those too. I have two new hobbies now. The first is cooking. We have groups of people over and I make big meals and I really enjoy the conversation, the compliments and of course, the food. The second is collecting arcade and pinball games. It is far less time consuming (though more space consuming) than Magic and easier to get others involved in (everyone knows how to play Pac-Man, pinball and Dance Dance Revolution). It is just as (more?) expensive, however. Speaking of that, I sold my Power Nine for $7000 to buy my first few arcade games but otherwise have all of my other competitive cards in storage and my casual decks easily accessible in case someone comes over and wants to play. I will admit that I may return to the game again someday (undoubtedly to Legacy and/or EDH) but for now, I am quite content with my life the way it is with Magic mostly a memory. Why should you care? You probably shouldn't. Why post this? Maybe because I knew some day (2018?) I'd need another reminder. Thanks for letting it take up some space in your forum. I wish you all the best.
It depends on what you are playing. Since this is in the Legacy forum, I will address Legacy first.
Medium to large Legacy, Vintage, Modern or Standard tournament - absolutely no proxies
Small local Legacy tournament with only a handful of local players having competitive Legacy cards - sure, with 10 proxies probably being about right. If you replace "Legacy" with: "Vintage" I'd say 15 proxies, with "Modern" I'd say 5 proxies and with "Standard" I'd say 0 proxies.
Kitchen table Legacy, Vintage, Modern or Standard tournament or testing - absolutely fine, proxy the entire 75 for all I care
Kitchen table casual with Legacy deck-building rules - no proxies; the point is to play less powerful decks and have fun, so use the cards you have. I really feel like the entire deck should be less than many expensive cards cost.
Commander - I'd lean towards no proxies unless you happen to be playing a card in another deck that you have with you and don't want to switch it over. It seems like proxies go against the spirit of the format and there aren't a ton of super expensive cards that are "must-play" and besides, you only need one.
To summarize:
Tournaments - no proxies unless you are having trouble getting enough people
Testing - lots of proxies
Casual - no proxies with only rare exceptions
I would never recommend playing such a deck in a serious tournament. I was simply trying to give this guy what he was looking for: card suggestions for a UB, non-combo, mill deck.
I actually encountered a UB mill deck in a tournament once. I went undefeated in the swiss rounds with BUWG Delver (basically Deathblade with Delver) but this deck gave me my only game loss. The cards that really got me were Hedron Crab(with fetches, of course) and Archive Trap. I know he was playing Glimpse the Unthinkable and maybe even Breaking/Entering. The deck played Mind Funeral but not Traumatize. He also played Brainstorm, Ponder, Daze and Visions of Beyond. I believe it was a budget deck and did not have Force of Will or regular fetches (he was playing Terramorphic Expanse, Evolving Wilds and other sub-optimal fetches) but there is no reason such a deck couldn't play those and Wasteland for more disruption. I don't think he did well in the tournament overall but it isn't a completely non-viable deck, especially for a smaller tournament with more fair decks. Other top decks were Elves, Sneak and Show, Belcher, Reanimator and MUD, all terrible match-ups for this mill deck.
Your counterspells should be Force of Will and Daze. If you want more, go for Spell Pierce or Spell Snare. In Legacy, with Volcanic Island and fetches, Counterspell is essentially always superior to Mana Leak, though neither should be in this kind of deck. Nivmagus is probably worse than Swiftspear but you must play 3-4 Flusterstorm if you are playing it.
I was not competing really at all but I was always preparing for such for no reason, really. Most of my play with others was casual with EDH, casual Legacy, cube, draft, etc. This was not the problem and took up very little of my time. The issue was watching tournaments, testing decks, thinking about decks, tweaking decks, etc with no concrete plan/opportunity to play competitively. It sounds weird to me now but that is what I was doing. *shrugs* Maybe I only need to put away thoughts/cards of competitive Magic but I'm not really sure I can do that or that I want to do that.
I won't actively discourage my kids from playing Magic but I also won't actively encourage it or have it be our primary source of bonding.
Thanks again for all the great responses, supportive or otherwise.
You missed the point. You implied that you thought magic would be bad for your kids, and I argued that it can be good. I was not saying that it is the only way to teach a person to read or make friends, just that the game can in fact aid in these areas.
I am not saying there aren't some good things about Magic. The basic reason for my decision is that I believe that the bad outweighs the good in my situation. There are some positives to not wearing a seatbelt but when critically evaluated, the positives of wearing a seatbelt outweigh the positives of not wearing one. I am all for maximizing my chances for survival and happiness and for me, I believe quitting Magic will improve my happiness overall.
You expressed some worry about your kids being nerds, as if this will harm them in some way ot make them deficient, whereas I am pointing out that nerd or otherwise your kids have the same access to all the great and essential things about being an adolescent. There is NOTHING inherent in MTG, or any other kind of gaming, that is bad for your kids when you provide responsible parenting. My point is not that MTG is essential, but that it can be part of a healthy and varied adolescent and adult life which includes sports and other physical and social activities. You can't handle MTG in your life due to your proclivities, but there is nothing inherently bad about the game that is not present in any activity that causes a dopamine release in the brain.
I was definitely a nerd growing up (no girlfriends, valedictorian, very shy) and while I actually feel that overall it helped make me a better person (not that I enjoyed being unpopular in school), I should probably give my parents more credit because they were/are excellent (this is me agreeing with you). If my kids choose nerdy things, so what? I just honestly don't think I am being the best parent that I can be by encouraging them to play Magic. My parents always promoted academics, being kind and caring to others, honesty, being active (not necessarily sports and winning, just being active) and healthy eating. They tried to get me into music but visual arts were much more my thing; which they were fine with. They discouraged video games (of course I played anyway and turned out just fine). I had no exposure to comics, RPGs and CCGs as a child. I mostly followed what they taught because kids do what their parents do, not necessarily what their parents say. I want to be the dad that is kind to others, honest, hard-working, paints amazing things, has a successful career, eats his vegetables, knows everything about space and calculus, can still dunk at 40, benches 250 lbs and can amaze others with his dance moves with mom because I want my kids to be like that. Is it possible to do all that AND play Magic? Probably. But I feel that I am not living up to my potential (who ever does?) and that Magic is currently the biggest obstacle to that for me. Are there people for whom playing Magic is a net gain? I honestly think they are probably rare. If you believe you are one of those people, good for you; I'm not.
In most some cases with some of those, sure. In my son's case I firmly believe that without a self directed drive to read in order to play it would have been a much longer and more stressful road. In a situation like that there is so much resistance and stress due to how difficult the task is for the child, that it is very hard to actually learn something, but when you find a way to engage them on their terms and with an activity that they want to do, then then retention is greater. I hope none of your kids have the same difficulties, but if they do you will find that using something they are self motivated to do and enjoy as the vehicle for improvement is the best way.
My wife also does not play TCGs, and there have been clashes about the game at times that I was not being resonsible and keeping my life balanced, but I corrected things without giving up the game I love. It can be done, though if you choose not to then that's fine too. In 20 years of marriage my wife and I have both learned that there is room for family activities, couple activities, and individual activities...even with two working parents and one severely developmentally delayed child (our youngest). My wife has things she does with her friends, and I have things I do with mine (and our oldest), but there is time for family and romantic activities as well if you communicate and plan well.
Thus far we've been able to work through any shortcomings in academics (though it hasn't been anything major) but I definitely agree that when learning is fun, it comes easier and I've seen that with my kids on several occasions.
It sounds like you have a well-balanced life and honestly I don't feel that my life is lacking any of those things and I really am very happy but there is always room for improvement and freeing up more time by not playing Magic should help. My parents had a friend in college whom later became a professor. He decided to log how he spent his time in 15 minute increments for an entire year. He "woke up" to all the time he was wasting and changed his life around. He sold a book based on this experiment and even ended up buying a college and eventually wrote the highest selling college textbook of all time. The point is that we all waste a lot of time and that time is precious. In fact, why am I still writing on this forum? I think Facebook is next on the chopping block too. It definitely seems like you have your life figured out and are in a nice place. I am happy for you. Can't you be happy for me that I am working on improving mine? Why is defending a card game so important to you? You decried my "need for attention" but are giving me more than anyone else on here.
EDIT: I also wanted to say that we canceled our cable 7 years ago. We were DVRing everything and were always "behind on our shows" and wasting so much time on that crap. When we watched real time TV I also felt like I was wasting my time not only with commercials but the shows as well. A movie can tell me a good story and provide good entertainment in 1.5-3 hours. A TV show takes many hours to get a story out of. I watch about 2-4 movies per week and that is the extent of my TV watching.
Firstly, I'm not sure why the rush to thank you for your post. With all due respect I don't quite understand the position of: "I don't want to play this game anymore, but I sure want to get attention by telling everyone why." I have stopped and started this game and others a few times when I needed to focus on other things, but I did not go out of my way to make sure anonymous people on the internet knew about it. What would make me think that other people would even notice if I stopped, let alone care? You want to make a change? Great, that's your deal, but do it without the fanfare.
That is one of the beauties of the internet. If I am alone in this and nobody cares, my post goes uncommented and quickly falls off the main page, never to be heard from again (me or the post). If there are others who might feel the same this gives them a chance to consider their own priorities and connect in some way to someone else in a similar situation. Plus, I may gain some valuable advice from other Magic players and those similar to me that will allow me to make a better decision than the one I am going with now.
I am 40, a married father of two boys with the oldest being 19, and my wife and I are both nurses. About thirteen years ago our oldest learned about Pokemon cards from one of his friends at school and asked for some. I've been a gamer since I was 10, and while I had yet to catch the MTG "bug" up to that point I had an inkling of what a TCG was. I had no interest in the characters at that point and never would have picked up the game myself, but my son wanted to play it with me so we did. Eventually I needed to find a more interesting game which led me to MTG, and over time my son wanted to try it too. At the time he was well below grade-level for reading and we could not get him interested in reading books, but I told him that if he wanted to play MTG he had to try to read the cards before asking me what they said. By the end of that school year he was reading well above grade-level and choosing to read books on his own. There were probably several factors that got him there, but I have no doubt that MTG was one of them.
Over the years we have played video games, table-top RPGs, on top of cards games together and I count these as some of my fondest memories. I knew almost all of his friends in middle school and high school due to playing games with them, and knew which ones to keep an eye on. He had to earn money or trade for cards if he wanted them (aside from gifts), and it taught him the value if money and work. He was only as inactive as I let him be, and all it took was a nudge outdoors for him to be running off playing imaginary games with other kids. He has always had a wide variety of interests, and played basketball, soccer, and a little baseball in school. You're their dad, and they will only be as obsessed with things as you let them be.
MTG has helped me to develop a meaningful relationship with my son (as well as others), and the tactics and ever shifting game play helps to sharpen mental acuity. Any athletics I want to do (biking and swimming mostly) I do. The implication that you cannot have varied activities while playing Magic, and that MTG is a waste of time is pretty irresponsible and short sighted.
All of these things were happening countless times before Magic and will continue to happen without Magic:
- Dads connecting with their kids
- People making friends and memories
- Developing mental acuity
- Learning to read good
I would argue that they happen WITH Magic being there, not BECAUSE of Magic being there.
Also, I am not saying that I won't ever pick up cards again or play Magic with my kids again. I think it is unlikely but my keeping the cards is at least a partial concession that I may want to return and am doing this partially as a trial. If my life doesn't seem to improve in any measurable way then why not go back to playing the game that I love? However, if my life does improve, then it is time to rid myself of Magic forever.
Thanks for your thought-provoking response. Every discussion needs dissenters.
Response to some common responses:
-I really don't need the money from selling the cards. I don't have so much money that $30k is insignificant but I already have more excess money than that that I am just investing anyway. Why not keep it in cards which are doing better than any other investment right now?
-My wife is a major factor in this. She, justifiably, feels like she is taking a back seat to Magic and she has no desire to play it with me (trust me, I've tried). She likes to work out so we can do that together. She likes to sing so we can do music together. She likes to play certain video games so we can do that together. I want to find hobbies that we can both enjoy.
-The player on Cockatrice didn't really affect me so much by his behavior as he caused reflection. It was more “why am I wasting my time with this jerk whom I don't know instead of hanging out with my wife/kids/friends?” than “his comments cut me so deep I want to cry and quit Magic.”
-I don't think that slowing down or just keeping a few decks or a cube is the answer. I have already slowed down quite a bit. I used to have cards in hand 2-3 hours per day; now it is closer to 5 hours per week. However, there is still all the time online on Magic sites and thinking about Magic that eats away at me. I have to realize that I am an obsessive person and there are some things that I cannot do lightly. It has helped me in many areas, particularly school and work success, but it can be a detriment too.
-I understand that there is a social aspect of Magic but I honestly don't need it. There are plenty of other ways to spend quality time with my kids and help them grow. Some of my best friends play Magic with me occasionally because they know I like it but most of our interactions are not Magic. I don't really have any good friends that I met playing Magic, just “Magic acquaintances”. I am really at a point in my life where I already have too many friends. Basically I don't even have enough time to devote to my current best friends, let alone 2nd or 3rd tier friends. If you are not at this stage of life yet, you will be some day.
-I do still have fun playing Magic but I have realized that if I play at all, I go so full bore that it takes up too much of my time, even in my mind. That is why I am choosing to quit even though I do have fun playing. I can find something else that I think is fun that benefits me more and hopefully won't become an obsession.
So I'm guessing that you're likely a primary care physician in a private practice setting (?). I can't say that I understand the type of lifestyle you're going through at the moment, but as someone who went through almost a year in a family medicine residency, I'd have to empathize with your decision here. I can't imagine being competitive with such a game in the midst of such a career let alone raising a family at the same time.
I am boarded in PM&R and Interventional Pain Management.
is anyone else going to say this? Many hobbies do not make youbetter. Hobbies are a way for you to relax, take a break from your regular life, and have fun. If your post said anything about not having fun with magic anymore, then quit. But please do not let one negative player affect your decision on how you spend your free time.
I would argue that playing guitar, lifting weights and playing basketball are all better for me than Magic. There are some mental gymnastics with Magic but it really isn't that difficult and I would like to find other ways to challenge myself without becoming obsessed.
...I have found more recently I do have away to give back, and I go out of way to help new mtg players in anyway I can (just being friendly is a start!) but I'll talk with them about what they are trying to do, offer some tips, give them cards or sleeves...this has been quite a gift in return, as I found giving back, nearly all of the other 'self-infected' stuff just goes away...and I have now even seen my son start to do the same..hmmmm!...
This is similar to what I had found as my one joy. I have put all of my excess rares/valuables into a trade binder and I enjoyed giving them away to young players at tournaments.
Sounds like a good investment to me. $15,000 in and now it's worth $30,000. Show me a bank that can match that rate of return. Good job
I'd go through it and sell anything standard legal, and save anything played in modern or legacy.
I think this is truly awesome advice and is exactly what I will do. The standard stuff will only drop in the future if it cannot be played in Modern or Legacy.
... I just wanted to say, don't be so hard on yourself.
I play guitar too. I taught myself about 3-4 years ago when I turned 30. I'm solidly intermediate now, I can play songs and have fun composing my own music. I'm probably never going to perform for other people much, and I don't know if, when I have kids, they will love music like I do. My point is, if I stuck to the criteria of "eating, sleeping, working, developing meaningful relationships or improving myself," playing guitar would be a waste of time...
I really am ok, don't worry about me. I think that playing guitar fits under "improving myself".
I also understand how this feels. I have two young ones, full time job with plenty of challenge and an old guitar waiting for me to pick it up. It appears that there's a large demographic of older MtG-players with guitars. Maybe WotC should design some cards for us...
My collection is a bit more extensive than yours, by about 3-4 times and I've been playing for 20 years soon....
Hopefully you can find a good balance betwen family, work and hobbies. But with 5 little ones, I can understand that your wife might need as much as possible of your time also. That's usually my wifes complain also. After I showed how the money moves she agreed to let me keep dealing cards, but every now and then notes the amount of time keeping the cards in some semblance of order takes. Also keeping fit should be the one thing to prioritize over hobbies. Being healthy and fit will allow you more energy for your family even after work.
HAHA about the guitar thing. It sounds like you have made a decent side business out of Magic, good for you. The last paragraph is good stuff about family and fitness before hobbies and I agree completely.
I'm not sure I fully agree with the OP. While I understand he didn't mean it like that, it nevertheless sounds like he's saying "consider quitting Magic and get another hobby". In other words, if you find yourself spending too much of your time on Magic, just change to another hobby.
So all your time now goes to the other hobby? What good does that do?
And why? If you enjoy one hobby, why forcefully change to another? I don't mean it's not good to try a diverse variety of hobbies. What I'm objecting to is the idea of quitting one hobby in favor of a new one. Try, yes. Forcefully quit the old one, why?
There are hobbies that don't cause so much obsession and time suck as Magic does.
...
As for the part about your kids growing up to like a nerdy game... What is that even supposed to mean? ...
Magic is a nerdy game. For better or worse, it is. "Nerd" culture has become cooler in recent years but it is still nerdy. I am a full-on nerd (comics, RPGs, video games, card games, movies) but I call a spade a spade.
...Just one quick observation: If you're the kind of person that can get that obsessed with one thing, and you also have a genuine love for music, you have the potential to become an amazing guitarist. Give that a proper shot. Playing music is incredibly satisfying, more so than playing Magic can ever be imho, and it doesn't have that unquenchable thirst quality.
Speaking as somebody that spend most of his childhood in a game store Magic helped me more than any other outlet I had. I have played magic since I was 11 (right around when Saviors of Kamigawa came out) and it really helped me a lot in life. For one my vocabulary is much more broad from some of the card names, it taught me sportsmanship, and even basic social skills. Because I was playing a game catered mostly to 18+ through interacting with them I was much more mature for my age. If they show interest don't hide them from tournament play.
I've always had a great vocabulary and spelling ability and I didn't play Magic until I was 30. It happened because I read obsessively as a child.
I comprehended it perfectly. He has a very poor sense of priorities and should probably worry more about feeding his five kids than the emotional problems a card game causes him.
He obviously won't tell us, but I would be very interested to know if the OP has any other kinds of addiction problems. Drugs, gambling, etc.
I do need to reevaluate my priorities. Again, this is why I am doing this. My kids are fine. I definitely put them and my career above everything else. What was getting left behind was my wife and myself in the evenings after the kids are in bed. I want to change that.
I have never tried a drug in my life. I didn't drink until I was 21 and rarely drink now. I have spent maybe $100 lifetime on gambling. I did have an addiction to Star Wars Galaxies at one time and it was killing my marriage and my medical school grades but I sold my character in a manner similar to this and I have never regretted it.
Interesting post. I was intrigued by your post, as I am actually a 34 year old physician who is recently returning to magic after playing in high school many years ago!...
Anyways, I wish you luck with your decision, and hope you find the right thing for you. I am hoping to not end up in your shoes in a few years time from spending waayyyy too much on pieces of cardboard!!
Finally, the obligatory InterWebz quote: "Can I haz your stuffs???!!"
What kind of doc are you? I hope my story serves as a cautionary tale for you. No.
I don't mean to belittle your experiences, but I've heard similar stories about a variety of other activities. We (humans) have the opportunity to learn from everything we do. The things you mention could be learned through other activities that offer advantages that Magic can't. Knowing nothing else about the OP's children, I'd caution against pushing them towards the game simply because their father seems like the kind of person to become easily obsessed with that sort of thing. Magic is not something you want to be obsessed with and those kids may be genetically predisposed to falling into that trap.
I am deeply touched by all the wonderful responses. I am working now but I will try to log on later and respond to your posts. Thank you. It is the multiple wonderful people like you that I will miss most.
**EDIT: This is a necro'd thread from 2 years ago. I necro'd it with post #91. You can go there if you want to see the update and more recent discussion. What follows in this post is my original unedited post.**
I am a logical person. I believe that you can think rationally and intelligently about almost anything and come up with a good solution. If you don't want to read the entire post, I thought long and hard and realized that the positives of continuing to play don't outweigh the negatives.
Some background: I am a 34 year-old married physician with 5 children ages 8, 6, 5, 2 and 10 months. I started playing Magic at age 30 and have spent around $15,000 on cards which are now worth about $30,000 according to the link in my signature. I am an obsessive person and have become overly obsessed with Magic. My wife hates Magic (probably more because of my obsession and my having $30,000 worth of cards than an inherent dislike of the game) and would love for me to quit but respects that I love playing. My oldest 4 kids are all boys and my oldest 3 will play with me but are more into video games currently. I have always been a gamer, mostly video games and then D&D and now Magic (I rarely play the others now).
Here is the conversation that prompted my self-reflection that led to my decision. This happened on Cockatrice.
Opponent (when I was countering everything and beating him down with Delver) - "Nice f***ing God hand"
Me (later when I was losing after drawing my 6th land in a row and watching his Liliana tick up) - "That God hand isn't looking so good now."
Opponent - "That's because my deck is better."
Me - "You're at a place in your life where you enjoy trash talking over the internet about a card game to someone you don't know?"
Opponent - *leaves the game*
Although I thought I'd come up with a pretty good comeback, it didn't feel good. It started to make me realize how often I don't feel better after competing in Magic tournaments. If I play someone who is a jerk, I don't enjoy it, win or lose. If I lose, I don't really enjoy it. If I play someone who is nice and I win, I feel bad.
Then I started thinking about other things.
When I lived in a large city, there were lots of Magic tournaments. There were constant EDH games to get into, 4-5 Standard tournaments per week, 3-4 Limited tournaments per week, 2 Legacy tournaments per week, even 2 Vintage tournaments per year. I always felt kind of blah about the tournament, even if I'd done well (which I typically did not, except in Legacy). Regardless, it was only a few hours wasted and a short drive to be back at home. Now I live in a small town where there is a decent amount of EDH, weekly Standard and monthly Modern. I don't really get to play the formats I love (Legacy and Vintage) except on Cockatrice, which is too often a miserable experience.
I have a huge collection and was working towards getting a complete Legacy and Vintage collection. Why keep this when there isn't anyone around to play with?
I had two reasons for this:
1. I planned to travel to tournaments (Leg/Vin Championships, SCG Open, Legacy Grand Prix, Bazaar of Moxen) at some point in the future. Honestly, however, I would prefer to spend my vacation time and money on something else because I would more than likely not win the tournament (or even top 8) and instead of a few hours, I'd have wasted an entire weekend and lots of money. Plus, when was I really going to do this? My life isn't going to slow down until I'm retired.
2. I hoped my boys(kids?) would get into it and go to tournaments with me. The problem here is that that might not actually be that good for them. Getting into a nerdy game as a kid might not really be what's best for them. When I got into the game I was already a solid adult and it has changed me for the worse. What would it do to a kid trying to figure out who they are? Also, if I am so obsessed with the game that it takes me away from them, they might just learn to hate it as much as my wife.
So if I am questioning whether this is good for my kids, shouldn't I question whether it is good for me? I feel that everyone needs a hobby and I love to play Magic but does it really improve me? The way I gauge that is to think about being 20 years in the future and imagine if I will wish I'd play more Magic. The answer is "heck no!" In high school and college I was very athletic and played nerd games. As I have gotten older and responsibilities have mounted, I've left behind most of the athletics and only play Magic in my reduced free time.
Then it hit me: I'M WASTING MY TIME and there are few things more precious than time. I should be spending my time eating, sleeping, working, developing meaningful relationships or improving myself. If my hobby also does one of these, then it is never a waste of time.
My dad got me a Fender Stratocaster for my birthday recently so I'll be learning to play that, playing basketball with my kids, trying to improve my business/clinic and lifting weights more regularly as my hobbies now.
If you see any of yourself in what I have said here, I implore you to think about if quitting Magic is what's best for you. May you find a hobby that you find enjoyable and enriching.
So what am I doing with the cards? My wife and I discussed this. I initially was going to sell them because it is a lot of money and I really shouldn't have access to them. Then I realized that there is a chance I would regret that some day (as I have talked to many people that did just that and did regret it later) and that they may go up even more in value and I don't really need the money right now. I have instead decided to put them into bins and put them into storage, ALL OF THEM. I will think about selling them again in a year when I see what prices have done and how I feel about that decision at that time.
Thanks for reading if you got to here. I will probably check comments on this thread until they stop and then I will leave this site as well. I thought about trying to get banned but that shouldn't be necessary.
I know you probably won't but don't forget about Razorfin Hunter and Sigil of Sleep for part 2. Also, I found it a bit much to focus completely on pingers and deathtouch when I made my UR version. Cards like Fog Bank and Guard Gomazoa (which also has nice synergy with deathtouch) keep you alive until you can create your "lock" and then you can just finish off your opponent with the pingers. I also added Act of Treason with Reckless Abandon as a further way to make them regret playing creatures. Reckless Abandon can also act as a nice finisher on one of your creatures. Add some Lightning Bolts and Preordain/Ponder and you have yourself a pretty workable deck. Unfortunately Basilisk Collar is the best card in the deck but is relatively expensive.
I think you missed the point. I quit 2 years ago because I was spending too much time thinking about and doing Magic.
I am a compulsive person and I had a similar problem with Star Wars Galaxies (before it was ruined). I had a similar revelation then, sold my character for $500 and never looked back. That is part of the reason I was able to look at this as a similar problem and make the change I needed to; I'd done it before to good effect. I will never again play an MMORPG.
I don't like Cube at all. I do play EDH rarely.
I didn't need to get rid of all of my cards and I am fine. Yes, that does increase the temptation some but Magic isn't like alcohol or another drug in its level of harm and I have been able to hold back any urges to get back into it on a grand scale.
HAHA! Sure, they're in the mail...
I like this thread too. Thanks.
I have a degree in Math and Physics and love Poker and am fairly decent at it but I don't really have time for that either. I know you weren't suggesting that for me, however.
I've kept most of my collection except the Power 9 and don't plan on selling anything more. I don't really have friends that play much Magic or that wouldn't prefer doing something else when we're together so I play from time to time, mostly EDH.
I was very social at events and that is something I miss. However, there are better social outlets without all of the smelly and unfriendly people that are mostly male. Certainly not all Magic players are smelly, but the ratio is higher than the general population.
I'm glad you're glad.
Your numbered items are all great
HAHA! I should learn from my dad for some father-son time
But it is! That is part of the problem. It just isn't as good as life!
I loved D&D before I loved Magic and my kids enjoy it too. We don't play much but it is fun when we do.
I necroed it.
What guy? Me?
I sold my Power 9 but am not selling my Legacy cards. I love the format and don't need the money.
Again, not selling the rest of my cards.
I don't really enjoy limited, I am a constructed guy all the way.
Medium to large Legacy, Vintage, Modern or Standard tournament - absolutely no proxies
Small local Legacy tournament with only a handful of local players having competitive Legacy cards - sure, with 10 proxies probably being about right. If you replace "Legacy" with: "Vintage" I'd say 15 proxies, with "Modern" I'd say 5 proxies and with "Standard" I'd say 0 proxies.
Kitchen table Legacy, Vintage, Modern or Standard tournament or testing - absolutely fine, proxy the entire 75 for all I care
Kitchen table casual with Legacy deck-building rules - no proxies; the point is to play less powerful decks and have fun, so use the cards you have. I really feel like the entire deck should be less than many expensive cards cost.
Commander - I'd lean towards no proxies unless you happen to be playing a card in another deck that you have with you and don't want to switch it over. It seems like proxies go against the spirit of the format and there aren't a ton of super expensive cards that are "must-play" and besides, you only need one.
To summarize:
Tournaments - no proxies unless you are having trouble getting enough people
Testing - lots of proxies
Casual - no proxies with only rare exceptions
I won't actively discourage my kids from playing Magic but I also won't actively encourage it or have it be our primary source of bonding.
Thanks again for all the great responses, supportive or otherwise.
I am not saying there aren't some good things about Magic. The basic reason for my decision is that I believe that the bad outweighs the good in my situation. There are some positives to not wearing a seatbelt but when critically evaluated, the positives of wearing a seatbelt outweigh the positives of not wearing one. I am all for maximizing my chances for survival and happiness and for me, I believe quitting Magic will improve my happiness overall.
I was definitely a nerd growing up (no girlfriends, valedictorian, very shy) and while I actually feel that overall it helped make me a better person (not that I enjoyed being unpopular in school), I should probably give my parents more credit because they were/are excellent (this is me agreeing with you). If my kids choose nerdy things, so what? I just honestly don't think I am being the best parent that I can be by encouraging them to play Magic. My parents always promoted academics, being kind and caring to others, honesty, being active (not necessarily sports and winning, just being active) and healthy eating. They tried to get me into music but visual arts were much more my thing; which they were fine with. They discouraged video games (of course I played anyway and turned out just fine). I had no exposure to comics, RPGs and CCGs as a child. I mostly followed what they taught because kids do what their parents do, not necessarily what their parents say. I want to be the dad that is kind to others, honest, hard-working, paints amazing things, has a successful career, eats his vegetables, knows everything about space and calculus, can still dunk at 40, benches 250 lbs and can amaze others with his dance moves with mom because I want my kids to be like that. Is it possible to do all that AND play Magic? Probably. But I feel that I am not living up to my potential (who ever does?) and that Magic is currently the biggest obstacle to that for me. Are there people for whom playing Magic is a net gain? I honestly think they are probably rare. If you believe you are one of those people, good for you; I'm not.
Thus far we've been able to work through any shortcomings in academics (though it hasn't been anything major) but I definitely agree that when learning is fun, it comes easier and I've seen that with my kids on several occasions.
It sounds like you have a well-balanced life and honestly I don't feel that my life is lacking any of those things and I really am very happy but there is always room for improvement and freeing up more time by not playing Magic should help. My parents had a friend in college whom later became a professor. He decided to log how he spent his time in 15 minute increments for an entire year. He "woke up" to all the time he was wasting and changed his life around. He sold a book based on this experiment and even ended up buying a college and eventually wrote the highest selling college textbook of all time. The point is that we all waste a lot of time and that time is precious. In fact, why am I still writing on this forum? I think Facebook is next on the chopping block too.
EDIT: I also wanted to say that we canceled our cable 7 years ago. We were DVRing everything and were always "behind on our shows" and wasting so much time on that crap. When we watched real time TV I also felt like I was wasting my time not only with commercials but the shows as well. A movie can tell me a good story and provide good entertainment in 1.5-3 hours. A TV show takes many hours to get a story out of. I watch about 2-4 movies per week and that is the extent of my TV watching.
That is one of the beauties of the internet. If I am alone in this and nobody cares, my post goes uncommented and quickly falls off the main page, never to be heard from again (me or the post). If there are others who might feel the same this gives them a chance to consider their own priorities and connect in some way to someone else in a similar situation. Plus, I may gain some valuable advice from other Magic players and those similar to me that will allow me to make a better decision than the one I am going with now.
All of these things were happening countless times before Magic and will continue to happen without Magic:
- Dads connecting with their kids
- People making friends and memories
- Developing mental acuity
- Learning to read good
I would argue that they happen WITH Magic being there, not BECAUSE of Magic being there.
Also, I am not saying that I won't ever pick up cards again or play Magic with my kids again. I think it is unlikely but my keeping the cards is at least a partial concession that I may want to return and am doing this partially as a trial. If my life doesn't seem to improve in any measurable way then why not go back to playing the game that I love? However, if my life does improve, then it is time to rid myself of Magic forever.
Thanks for your thought-provoking response. Every discussion needs dissenters.
-I really don't need the money from selling the cards. I don't have so much money that $30k is insignificant but I already have more excess money than that that I am just investing anyway. Why not keep it in cards which are doing better than any other investment right now?
-My wife is a major factor in this. She, justifiably, feels like she is taking a back seat to Magic and she has no desire to play it with me (trust me, I've tried). She likes to work out so we can do that together. She likes to sing so we can do music together. She likes to play certain video games so we can do that together. I want to find hobbies that we can both enjoy.
-The player on Cockatrice didn't really affect me so much by his behavior as he caused reflection. It was more “why am I wasting my time with this jerk whom I don't know instead of hanging out with my wife/kids/friends?” than “his comments cut me so deep I want to cry and quit Magic.”
-I don't think that slowing down or just keeping a few decks or a cube is the answer. I have already slowed down quite a bit. I used to have cards in hand 2-3 hours per day; now it is closer to 5 hours per week. However, there is still all the time online on Magic sites and thinking about Magic that eats away at me. I have to realize that I am an obsessive person and there are some things that I cannot do lightly. It has helped me in many areas, particularly school and work success, but it can be a detriment too.
-I understand that there is a social aspect of Magic but I honestly don't need it. There are plenty of other ways to spend quality time with my kids and help them grow. Some of my best friends play Magic with me occasionally because they know I like it but most of our interactions are not Magic. I don't really have any good friends that I met playing Magic, just “Magic acquaintances”. I am really at a point in my life where I already have too many friends. Basically I don't even have enough time to devote to my current best friends, let alone 2nd or 3rd tier friends. If you are not at this stage of life yet, you will be some day.
-I do still have fun playing Magic but I have realized that if I play at all, I go so full bore that it takes up too much of my time, even in my mind. That is why I am choosing to quit even though I do have fun playing. I can find something else that I think is fun that benefits me more and hopefully won't become an obsession.
I am boarded in PM&R and Interventional Pain Management.
I would argue that playing guitar, lifting weights and playing basketball are all better for me than Magic. There are some mental gymnastics with Magic but it really isn't that difficult and I would like to find other ways to challenge myself without becoming obsessed.
I don't have a lot, that's why what I do have is so important.
This is similar to what I had found as my one joy. I have put all of my excess rares/valuables into a trade binder and I enjoyed giving them away to young players at tournaments.
That was great, not whining at all.
I think this is truly awesome advice and is exactly what I will do. The standard stuff will only drop in the future if it cannot be played in Modern or Legacy.
I really am ok, don't worry about me. I think that playing guitar fits under "improving myself".
HAHA about the guitar thing. It sounds like you have made a decent side business out of Magic, good for you. The last paragraph is good stuff about family and fitness before hobbies and I agree completely.
There are hobbies that don't cause so much obsession and time suck as Magic does.
My emotional maturity is fine. My general maturity might need some work.
Magic is a nerdy game. For better or worse, it is. "Nerd" culture has become cooler in recent years but it is still nerdy. I am a full-on nerd (comics, RPGs, video games, card games, movies) but I call a spade a spade.
Yes, THIS.
I've always had a great vocabulary and spelling ability and I didn't play Magic until I was 30. It happened because I read obsessively as a child.
I have honestly felt a little bit of guilt about this.
I do need to reevaluate my priorities. Again, this is why I am doing this. My kids are fine. I definitely put them and my career above everything else. What was getting left behind was my wife and myself in the evenings after the kids are in bed. I want to change that.
I have never tried a drug in my life. I didn't drink until I was 21 and rarely drink now. I have spent maybe $100 lifetime on gambling. I did have an addiction to Star Wars Galaxies at one time and it was killing my marriage and my medical school grades but I sold my character in a manner similar to this and I have never regretted it.
What kind of doc are you? I hope my story serves as a cautionary tale for you. No.
Yes, this.
I am a logical person. I believe that you can think rationally and intelligently about almost anything and come up with a good solution. If you don't want to read the entire post, I thought long and hard and realized that the positives of continuing to play don't outweigh the negatives.
Some background: I am a 34 year-old married physician with 5 children ages 8, 6, 5, 2 and 10 months. I started playing Magic at age 30 and have spent around $15,000 on cards which are now worth about $30,000 according to the link in my signature. I am an obsessive person and have become overly obsessed with Magic. My wife hates Magic (probably more because of my obsession and my having $30,000 worth of cards than an inherent dislike of the game) and would love for me to quit but respects that I love playing. My oldest 4 kids are all boys and my oldest 3 will play with me but are more into video games currently. I have always been a gamer, mostly video games and then D&D and now Magic (I rarely play the others now).
Here is the conversation that prompted my self-reflection that led to my decision. This happened on Cockatrice.
Opponent (when I was countering everything and beating him down with Delver) - "Nice f***ing God hand"
Me (later when I was losing after drawing my 6th land in a row and watching his Liliana tick up) - "That God hand isn't looking so good now."
Opponent - "That's because my deck is better."
Me - "You're at a place in your life where you enjoy trash talking over the internet about a card game to someone you don't know?"
Opponent - *leaves the game*
Although I thought I'd come up with a pretty good comeback, it didn't feel good. It started to make me realize how often I don't feel better after competing in Magic tournaments. If I play someone who is a jerk, I don't enjoy it, win or lose. If I lose, I don't really enjoy it. If I play someone who is nice and I win, I feel bad.
Then I started thinking about other things.
When I lived in a large city, there were lots of Magic tournaments. There were constant EDH games to get into, 4-5 Standard tournaments per week, 3-4 Limited tournaments per week, 2 Legacy tournaments per week, even 2 Vintage tournaments per year. I always felt kind of blah about the tournament, even if I'd done well (which I typically did not, except in Legacy). Regardless, it was only a few hours wasted and a short drive to be back at home. Now I live in a small town where there is a decent amount of EDH, weekly Standard and monthly Modern. I don't really get to play the formats I love (Legacy and Vintage) except on Cockatrice, which is too often a miserable experience.
I have a huge collection and was working towards getting a complete Legacy and Vintage collection. Why keep this when there isn't anyone around to play with?
I had two reasons for this:
1. I planned to travel to tournaments (Leg/Vin Championships, SCG Open, Legacy Grand Prix, Bazaar of Moxen) at some point in the future. Honestly, however, I would prefer to spend my vacation time and money on something else because I would more than likely not win the tournament (or even top 8) and instead of a few hours, I'd have wasted an entire weekend and lots of money. Plus, when was I really going to do this? My life isn't going to slow down until I'm retired.
2. I hoped my boys(kids?) would get into it and go to tournaments with me. The problem here is that that might not actually be that good for them. Getting into a nerdy game as a kid might not really be what's best for them. When I got into the game I was already a solid adult and it has changed me for the worse. What would it do to a kid trying to figure out who they are? Also, if I am so obsessed with the game that it takes me away from them, they might just learn to hate it as much as my wife.
So if I am questioning whether this is good for my kids, shouldn't I question whether it is good for me? I feel that everyone needs a hobby and I love to play Magic but does it really improve me? The way I gauge that is to think about being 20 years in the future and imagine if I will wish I'd play more Magic. The answer is "heck no!" In high school and college I was very athletic and played nerd games. As I have gotten older and responsibilities have mounted, I've left behind most of the athletics and only play Magic in my reduced free time.
Then it hit me: I'M WASTING MY TIME and there are few things more precious than time. I should be spending my time eating, sleeping, working, developing meaningful relationships or improving myself. If my hobby also does one of these, then it is never a waste of time.
My dad got me a Fender Stratocaster for my birthday recently so I'll be learning to play that, playing basketball with my kids, trying to improve my business/clinic and lifting weights more regularly as my hobbies now.
If you see any of yourself in what I have said here, I implore you to think about if quitting Magic is what's best for you. May you find a hobby that you find enjoyable and enriching.
So what am I doing with the cards? My wife and I discussed this. I initially was going to sell them because it is a lot of money and I really shouldn't have access to them. Then I realized that there is a chance I would regret that some day (as I have talked to many people that did just that and did regret it later) and that they may go up even more in value and I don't really need the money right now. I have instead decided to put them into bins and put them into storage, ALL OF THEM. I will think about selling them again in a year when I see what prices have done and how I feel about that decision at that time.
Thanks for reading if you got to here. I will probably check comments on this thread until they stop and then I will leave this site as well. I thought about trying to get banned but that shouldn't be necessary.