MTG Salvation

Quote from gkourou »

TLDR2: I won't be hyperbolic saying this is Eldrazi winter, because people that are saying that probably want Twin back, so their agenda is to sell the format as horribly bad and scream for a Twin unban. They don't even believe this theirselves.

I'll flip that statement right back at you. Phoenix in less than half a year has put up better results and higher play-rate than Twin in the entire of 2015. You call it an agenda but they're justified to want twin back in the face of the weekend's results.

You say they have an agenda, but what about yourself.

Over 20% play rate over 2 GPs. 6 out of 16 top 8 spots in 2 GPs.

Twin's stats are rookie numbers compared to this and yet here you are defending it and deriding twin players.

Yeah they might be selling the format horribly, but that's no different from you sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling that this is the best Modern has ever been.

If you honestly believe this is the best Modern has ever been, than you're either deluded or a hypocrite.

Being better than eldrazi winter is a low bar.

Legend has it that gkourou will still tell you modern is the best it’s ever been.

From twitter:

#MTGBilbao Semifinal results:

2010 World Champion Guillaume Matignon defeats Thomas Rasmussen in an Izzet Phoenix mirror

Now six-time GP Top 8 competitor Louis-Samuel Deltour (Whir Prison) triumphs over Joseba Garcia (Dredge).

EDIT: Matignon on UR Phoenix takes down Bilbao

Adding on to the GP breakdowns.

Day 2 Meta for SCG as follows:

Izzet Phoenix – 19
Dredge – 9
Humans – 8
Mono-Green Tron – 6
Azorius Control – 4
Grixis Death’s Shadow – 4
Burn – 4
Amulet Titan – 3
Affinity – 3
Golgari Midrange – 3
Whir Prison – 2
Jund Death’s Shadow – 2
Hollow+One – 2
Colorless Eldrazi – 2
Titan Shift – 2
Infect – 1
Storm – 1
Bant Spirits – 1
Mono-Red Phoenix – 1
Counters Company – 1
Ad+Nauseam – 1
Faeries – 1
Blue Moon – 1
Four-Color Death’s Shadow – 1
Four-Color Vannifar – 1
Sultai Reclamation – 1
Selesnya Taxes – 1

Quote from cfusionpm »

Quote from Renegade Rallier »

Quote from cfusionpm »

Phoenix is putting up competitive numbers Twin could only dream of.

Toxic twin players derailing the thread with their agenda.

Modern is the best it's ever been.

edit: /s if that wasn't obvious.

I was referring to something exremely specific. In addition to the ridiculous Day 2 numbers that Twin never saw, the "competitive diversity" claim is pretty strong. If Twin is the bar, Phoenix is breaking it. If Phoenix isn't breaking it, then Twin needs to come back. Plain and simple.

Since Printing Phoenix on 10/5/18
Total GPs: 6
Total copies of Phoenix in T8: 9
Avg copies per GP: 1.5 (2, 2*, 2, 1*, 2, 0) *Win
Winners: 2* (Don't know Bilbao results yet)

Twin in all of 2015
Total GPs: 8
Total copies of Twin in T8: 10
Avg copies per GP: 1.25 (3*, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 1*, 0) *Win
Winners: 2 (vastly different builds, nearly a year apart)

Yup, agreed completely. Yet there are people telling the twin guys they're obsessed and have an agenda. Every reason cited for a twin ban can be applied wholesale for UR phoenix.

Does UR Phoenix put up the numbers? Resounding yes for both top 8 performance and play rate.
Diversity among blue decks? Well GDS, UW, U-moon and UWR combined took 10% less than UR Phoenix this time round.

UR Phoenix being allowed to continue to exist in its current form when twin remains banned is an joke.

1 more GP like this and faithless looting 100% needs to go.

EDIT: FROM CFB, DAY 2 Meta at GP Tampa

Good news for Phoenix players. Only 2 in the top 8 and overshadowed by Dredge. These decks are obviously totally fine and not a problem.

Seriously. Excuses about players not adapting to the format simply cannot be made anymore. Graveyard decks have been dominating for a good few months now. Nobody is skimping on GY hate anymore, so much so that Surgical Extraction is ridiculously expensive.

Don't wanna hear anymore crap about players not being willing to adapt. At this point its clearly a power-level problem.

Edit: Here are the top 8 from the prev GP for comparison

Titanshift
Dredge x2
Izzet Phoenix x2
Harden Scales x2
Grixis Shadow

Lol, more than the next 3 combined.

But we'll still have to see how it converts into top 32 before making any conclusions.

Sure, agreed mostly.

But your initial assertion that phoenix draws are no more busted than humans/spirits nut draws is still false. For one, Humans and spirits see a lot less cards than phoenix, so the triple champion + 1 drop draw you mentioned is much more unlikely to happen than a double phoenix, they are also just as beatable if not more so.

Every other aggro deck relies on a very specific combination of cards in their 1st 9 or 10. Only dredge gets to see as many/more cards than Phoenix.

Haha nah I'm talking about realistic scenarios instead of ridiculous extremes like 3 or 4 phoenixes on turn 2.

The best damage curves 5C humans have.
T1 Champion
T2 Lieutenant, swing for 3.
T3 Mantis Rider, swing for 9

12 damage maximum on turn 3, realistic to achieve.

T1 vial
T2 vial in champion, cast lieutenant, COTP 3/3, TL 1/1, no attacks
T3 cast mantis rider, vial in lieutenant, COTP 6/6, TL 4/4, Mantis Rider 4/4, TL 1/1. swing for 14

14 damage maximum on turn 3, this would be the best output by turn 3 while also being realistic to achieve

*edit: Forgot about triple champion draws so I'll add that in,

T1 champion
T2, champion + champion, swing for 3. 3/3, 2/2, 1/1
T3, Mantis Rider, swing for 12. champions: 4/4, 3/3, 2/2. Mantis Rider 3/3

15 damage maximum on turn 3, although i think this is about as realistic as t2 triple phoenix.

The best damage curve Bant Spirits can have.
T1 Hierarch
T2 Geist
T3 CoCo into 2 lords, swing for 9

9 damage maximum on turn 3.

edit* Alternate for spirits:

T1, Wanderer
T2, wanderer + wanderer, swing for 3.
T3, wanderer + lord, swing for 12.

15 damage maximum on turn 3, although i think this is about as realistic as t2 quad phoenix.

UR Phoenix (I'm making the assumption that 2 phoenixes on turn 2 is a considered a realistic nut draw)
T2, 2 phoenixes, in for 6
T3. at least another 6 assuming no further developments, possibly more.

At least 12 damage on turn 3, with potential for more

I won't talk about GDS because I'm not too familiar with it's supposed nut draw. Feel free to educate me.

It's pretty clear that UR phoenix's realistic nut draw is at least as good as 5C Humans realistic max damage/no disruption curve, with the caveat that UR phoenix can potentially output more than 12 by turn 3, while 5C humans is capped at 14 by turn 3.

Edit: Added more examples of humans and spirits nut draws.

Quote from MrTzoulis »

It has busted draws, but they're no more busted than the nuts with Humans/Spirits or GDS. Are they unfair decks? If not then phoenix isn't an unfair deck, if they are, then it is. It depends on how do you define "unfair" in a format were unfair/broken is par for the course.

Blatantly false. None of those other decks have a nut draw anywhere near as good as the Phoenix decks.
The high damage potential of humans and spirits only really start on turn 3 on their very best draws.

What's the confusion? Arclight Phoenix by itself is a fair card, the deck/strategy it's played in definitely does NOT want to play fair, but can do so well enough if required.

Dredge cards in a vacuum are relatively fair, but the strategy is busted.

Fair cards do not only go in fair decks, and unfair cards do not only go in unfair decks.

Aight fair enough.