Magic Market Index for Aug 17th, 2018
 
Magic Market Index for Aug 10, 2018
 
Treasure Cruisin' Modern Big Red
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Legacy Ban List Discussion Thread (Read OP before Posting)
    Haha and a serious question from a modern player. So why is Mind Twist on the list? T1, ritual, ritual, mind twist, you're down 3 cards, opponent's down 4 cards. Or can you do more nasty things with it?


    It's a relic ban from the time this format was Type 1.5 instead of Legacy, basically. There's no way to abuse Mind Twist in any serious capacity, since you'll almost always be better running Hymn to Tourach (along with Snapcaster if you're so inclined) if you want multiple random discards. Or even Rise // Fall though that one's a lot harder to make the mana for now that DRS is gone. If you want to run yourself out of gas to strip your opponent's hand, then cool, but it'd be fiendishly inconsistent at the best of times, since only one Ritual means you're casting for X=2 and thus you're down an extra card basically to Hymn your opponent a turn early.

    Even if the game goes long, you're more likely just going to catch a bunch of sandbagged lands or something than anything of value.
    Posted in: Legacy (Type 1.5)
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Legacy Ban List Discussion Thread (Read OP before Posting)
    So... like Brainstorm? We'd see a lot more colour diversity if that happened, I tell you what.
    Posted in: Legacy (Type 1.5)
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Legacy Ban List Discussion Thread (Read OP before Posting)
    This is some real reactionary, Modern-tier banning philosophy right here.

    It's also why I hate the idea of "sacred cow" cards like Brainstorm that should be banned by literally every metric other than "players like it too much to ban it" existing alongside cards that, it seems, inevitably get banned simply to shake up the format.

    Oh and dumb crap like Mind Twist is still on the list. What a gong show.
    Posted in: Legacy (Type 1.5)
  • posted a message on MTG, the worst community?
    Quote from BlueTronFTW »
    Hell, we aren't even allowed to voice certain viewpoints on this forum, because they have been deemed detrimental to the "community."

    What sorts of viewpoints might those be?
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on MTG, the worst community?
    [quote from="Teia Rabishu »" url="/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/793278-mtg-the-worst-community?comment=69"]Everyone that brings in outside problems into the game, including politics, religion, sexuality, race/gender and what not will run against a flat WALL and earn disrespect and simply annoy people. That doesnt mean the community is bad, it simply means these people completely miss the point of what makes a game a game, people use the game to avoid real life crap topics that only fuel hate and ultimately violence.
    The only feasible solution for the good of the game is to avoid these topics in your game , not push it harder to start a civil war in the community, as that is what will happen and there are no winners in such a conflict, only people that leave the game.


    Do you feel that such subjects should also remain outside the mandate of, say, literature? Television? Movies? Performance art? "I just want to read my book and not have to worry about social issues"? Because if you think gaming is some kind of exception to the use of creative media to explore social issues, I've got some tremendously bad news for you: It's not, and in general, only the people with the privilege not to care about such subjects in the real world want to ensure it stays out of gaming.

    I play magic pretty much non-stop for 20+ years and universally all the people i met are pretty nice people and if someone wants to stick around a group you can talk in private if you want to solve specific issues, in a neutral adult way,

    Pointing fingers and calling someone "the problem" are fundamentally wrong, deeply disrespectful and will only fuel hate and aggression. So if you can avoid it, dont ever do that.


    You're engaging in a very classic conflation of people's actions with people themselves. In essence, it's the notion that "person who did a bad thing" means "bad person." That isn't the case, and what's being called out as "the problem" are not people per se, but specific patterns of behaviour that make Magic unnecessarily unwelcoming to specific individuals or groups. Just because your experience is rosy doesn't mean that the experiences of women and minorities are universally rosy. People like the toxic individual responsible for that debacle last winter (whose name I continue to refuse to give publicity to) are never going to stop their toxic behaviour if they're asked in a "neutral" way.

    Find someone who believes that women and/or minorities are ruining "their" game, who feel it justified to harangue others and act in offensive ways to make members of groups they don't like uncomfortable, and try to talk them out of their reactionary beliefs. I'll wait.

    Quote from 9talete9 »
    Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think that he was saying that minorities shoudn't play magic, but that in a fnm should be better to not discuss such topics.


    If you've ever heard someone say of a gay couple "I don't have anything against gay people, but they shouldn't rub it in my face" over, say, two men holding hands in public, then you know the kind of mentality that drives comments such as "FNM should be free of discussion of social issues." This one is particularly invidious because it reinforces the notion that people uncomfortable with offensive behaviour should stay quiet about it and not rock the boat, even when the only reasonable recourse is to rock the boat. "Hey, those words/actions are offensive and make me feel unwelcome" should never be met with "keep those subjects out of FNM."

    I've written an entire article on the subject in the past, and it remains just as relevant as ever.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on MTG, the worst community?
    Quote from Colt47 »
    I wouldn't over blow his followers. He had a lot of people backing him during the winter season due to the MTGO issues and the controversy over Sprankle. Right now it's mostly people getting misled.

    The problem is there's a large number of disaffected young men out there who think that giving themselves a cause in pushing others down means they're pulling themselves up. The kind of people who think bullying others makes them feel powerful. It's a pattern that will repeat itself, even if not with the same people as the prior few major cases of drama in the Magic community. It gets even worse when they identify themselves so strongly with a hobby that they see changes to that hobby or the demographics who enjoy it as a threat. This is why it's important that all levels of a hobby—the company behind it, the people in charge of its social spaces, and the playing community itself—band together to excise harassers and other abusers, not empower them or give them space for their antics or the implication that such antics are acceptable. No endorsement of hate, no platform for hate, no acceptance of hate. That's the trifecta that needs to exist before a community can truly improve, and if even one of them is missing, it's only going to invite further trouble.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on MTG, the worst community?
    Just be careful about what you post about him, because his followers are very good at making a big ruckus, harassing those involved, and forcing people/sites to cave to their demands no matter what resistance they initially face. Also:

    Quote from ed06288 »
    people who do buyouts and the like.

    Organizing buyouts like some self-styled "financiers" do is one of the more antisocial things you'll ever see in this community. They legitimately don't care that making a quick buck or "growing their portfolio" or whatever involves depriving people of the pieces required to play certain formats or decks. In a way, it's like how you'll see entire city blocks in "hot" real estate markets where absolutely no one lives, because the houses are simply part of an investment portfolio to the absentee owners, and having anyone live there would devalue the property.

    There's no excuse for talking down to pros, but when it comes to speaking ill of coordinated buyouts, well, a broken clock is still right twice a day.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on MTG, the worst community?
    Quote from IronPlush »
    I think arguably the largest problem is that not only do many players not see toxicity as a problem in the community, but refuse to acknowledge when it happens. Even going so far as to champion the worst offenders.

    The bigger problem is essentially not making pariahs of individuals. "We're against harassment," people will say, but when harassers do their thing, those same people will hem and haw and wring their hands because they aren't prepared to call out the offender. Often this is because calling out specific offenders is met with the label of "witch hunt" (even when it's not a witch hunt at all), and in the case of larger sites may be a liability thing, but the community itself ultimately shapes what's acceptable by what it allows to happen, not by what it says. Actions speak louder than words, and all that. Claiming to be against harassment while being utterly unwilling to do anything about harassment is, at best, hypocrisy, and at worst actively enabling the offenders because they can just go "well clearly I'm not harassing people otherwise I'd be called out on it."

    It's understandable when it comes to cases of, say, accusations of cheating, where there could well be an innocent explanation for suspicious-looking behaviour, but when it comes to blatant toxicity, things are far more black and white. Benefit of the doubt should never be given to those who cause harm to others by harassment, toxic behaviour, and other bull*****.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on MTG, the worst community?
    Quote from Lumovanis »
    (the Sprinkle incident is a good example, it's a shame she felt she had to remove herself from the community before it was handled though)

    The basic problem is that while Wizards came down hard on the offender (I'm not going to use his name because I don't want to give him any publicity), there were tons of pockets of the community that saw him as a martyr and were only emboldened in their toxicity by him. Add that to the fact that many "we condemn harassment" platitudes were fairly empty and unwilling to call out the offender by name.

    Don't get me wrong, there were some positive things to come from the fallout of that event... but there were a bunch of negative things, too, and that's not exactly conducive to a welcoming environment.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Legacy Ban List Discussion Thread (Read OP before Posting)
    Quote from drmarkb »
    I do think there needs to be a formal watch list fir Legacy. The format is expensive, and being forewarned allows people to make informed choices.

    The problem is that, historically, people treat "this card might be banned" as "this card will be banned" and as a result shy away from using them, don't pick them up for decks, get rid of them if they have them, etc. Watch lists are an intrinsically bad thing because they introduce fear, uncertainty, and doubt into people's card and deck choices, which also has the effect of skewing the data such that it's more difficult to tell if the card actually deserves a ban or not.
    Posted in: Legacy (Type 1.5)
  • posted a message on Do you prefer playing with premium cards or non-premium cards?
    Ultimately it depends on the format for me. In something like Legacy, I prefer non-foils (and old frame) because the idea is that my deck's aesthetics emulate Magic's past as strongly as possible. In something like Commander, well, the idea is that you gotta show off that bling, and foils have a very distinctive look that can't be matched by what things like different frames provide that make those decks appear fundamentally different than those in other formats.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Legacy Ban List Discussion Thread (Read OP before Posting)
    Burn even dumpsters Czech due to its raw, unfiltered aggression, and has a surprisingly decent matchup against Delver if you make a suitable board for it.

    I've learned to cringe at "Mountain, Goblin Guide, swing" as someone's opening play when playing Delver, because it means the strategy of incremental advantage is, at best, going to be blunted hard due to the deck's sheer redundancy. It's just not a "sexy" deck because most pros shy away from it and it has the "deck for newbies" stigma attached to it.
    Posted in: Legacy (Type 1.5)
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Legacy Ban List Discussion Thread (Read OP before Posting)
    Quote from crimhead »
    For the record, I am not asking for a DRS ban, but if the future looks too much like the top-16 from Birmingham, something needs to give.


    The point of a card having "sacred cow" status is that it's seen as an unassailable pillar of the format. Brainstorm, Force of Will, Wasteland, etc all have this status going for them. Personally, I don't see the problem if a card printed in the modern frame gains such a status, as long as there are still a diverse number of playable decks, and going from the numbers I've seen, that's still the case. A quick glance at some numbers tells me that Miracles, Elves, Sneak and Show, Stompy, Storm, and Reanimator are healthily represented in the metagame. Looking at Birmingham and how a DRS deck didn't actually win the event, I'd be curious to see what conversion rates are like on DRS decks versus other decks. If it's simply a case of an army of players all picking up Delver because it's "the best deck," then sheer numbers will brute force their way into the top 16, as compared to a smaller number of skilled players on other decks.
    Posted in: Legacy (Type 1.5)
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Legacy Ban List Discussion Thread (Read OP before Posting)
    Right, but that doesn't address the actual argument I'm making, which is that DRS is old enough to be an ingrained staple in the format. Brainstorm puts an entire colour a league above the other four, and people seem fine with that, but when decks like Czech (a midrange/control deck, if anything) and Delver (a tempo deck) are among the top decks alongside things like Elves (a combo deck) and various other fair decks improved by DRS, suddenly it's a foul. To put it bluntly, if DRS had been printed when Brainstorm was and vice versa, all these "ban DRS" calls would be "ban Brainstorm" calls, and there's no real getting around that, because if about six years isn't enough for something to be an ingrained staple, then how long does a card need to warp the format around it for in order to be okay?
    Posted in: Legacy (Type 1.5)
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Legacy Ban List Discussion Thread (Read OP before Posting)
    It's quite probable that hurting the fair decks of the format by removing their ramp + pressure one-mana planeswalker would advantage unfair decks too much to be worth it. They have tons of data from MTGO Competitive leagues and Format Challenges to go on as far as DRS' prevalence goes, and if you look at the results, sometimes they surprise you in how DRS isn't always the top dog. DRS doesn't have the old-frame-sacred-cow thing going for it, but it's still got more than five years' worth of pedigree, and it does pop up in multiple archetypes (aggro, tempo, control, even combo to an extent if you consider Elves) enough to say that it doesn't put any one deck or archetype at the forefront of the format.

    Personally, I'm of the opinion that we need to see more unbans than bans at this point, if only because some of the crap on the ban list has no purpose being there anymore (Mind Twist, Earthcraft, maybe a couple others wouldn't even affect anything at all if they came off).
    Posted in: Legacy (Type 1.5)
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