It's so you can easily group a bunch of decks together in terms of what they do. A lot easier than listing out Reanimator, Storm, Breakfast etc every time you're talking about these kind of decks.
In any case, it doesn't look like my opinions align with the consensus here.
After playing DnT exclusively in Legacy for years, it's a little disappointing, but perhaps the Modern version just isn't for me.
Sowing Salt is both slow and suboptimal since he will always counter it. he best land disruption you can play here is tectonic edge. tron is a slow deck so you'll have to put pressure with GoST t3 (since don't have to worry about pyroclasm like RG tron) and take out threats with clique. Karn HAS to be put to the bottom or countered, and so does mindslaver. reserve your counters for these cards and let wurmcoil pass, you will exile him. Ajani will win the game alone but you'll have both to protect him when u cast it (counters) and to assure yourself you can tap 4 lands on your turn. in every single eot you will want a burn in hand to put him pressure, he won't counter them and his life points will go down fast... and we're still MB! post SB your position gets better due to dispel, counterflux, and eventually some dedicated hate you will choose (i can advice for shadow of doubt or spreading seas)
Perhaps I am playing it wrong then. I usually don't go for the turn 3 Geist into their counter mana.
I also don't run Ajani - instead I have Resto angel in those slots.
I'm not sure if Ajani would be better in that slot, to be honest. What other decks is Ajani good against? I'd imagine it would come out against aggro, while Resto can be semi-relevant.
Here's the list, so there's something to look at. The Arid Mesa is due to budget - they should be Scalding Tarns. As mentioned above, the Sowing Salts are the iffy slots in the side.
I do not think that Thalia should be cut in 99% of the builds, and if it was cut it would not be for Elspeth. Thalia taxes:
5 of the top 10 cards in Modern
About 50% of the spells in Jund
Almost all of the spells in RWU
Thalia is one of the few true tax spells we run.
The only deck I have taken her out for was in my WB build which removed her for Lingering Souls. You all know about my 3 cmc or less soap box, but that goes quadrupally for non-creature spells. We run up to 10 lands that we willingly sacrifice to gain advantage, so we are not exactly rolling in mana and I just don't see a 4 cmc PW as a good investment. I might be willing to get behind trying Ajani, Caller of the Pride, but I don't think he is worth taking out Thalia for this deck.
I don't think this is a good way to think about it.
Yes, all the good spells in Modern are taxed by Thalia. That's what Thalia does.
In Legacy, Thalia is a must because suddenly you have to pay 1 to FoW. Or if you're Storm you probably just can't win through it. It is backbreaking, and is comparable to what Arbiter does in Modern if they're running fetches.
In Modern, most of the time, you're forcing them to pay an extra 1 to bolt it. It's annoying, but usually just a minor speed bump.
The question isn't how many spells Thalia taxes, but how many matchups there are where it's backbreaking. By that, I mean on it's own - not piggybacking off Arbiter when you're effectively already ahead.
Now, I concede Elspeth may not be the answer. It may be Swords (though I dislike this plan without SFM), it could be Ajani, it may even be to splash.
All I'm saying is: at its best, Thalia is a good complementary piece to the core of Arbiter/Mindcensor/Vial/Ghost Quarter. On average, however, when you don't have your ideal board state, it's a speed bump.
The fact is, unfair decks in modern aren't that popular/successful, whilst grindy fair decks are. Look at GW Hatebears. What little "hate" creatures it runs are almost accidental. It's closer to straight up GW aggro than what its name suggest. Yet it seems to be doing a lot better than DnT, which is completely focused on shutting down the opponent. Some allowances can be made for playskill requirements - but I think the reason for their success is more that dumb beats win games in Modern.
Perhaps it's time to delegate Thalia to the sideboard?
Modern is predominantly dominated by fair decks. Thalia is really not that great against fair decks. At the moment, the fact that we have Thalia is stopping us from playing stuff like Elspeth, which will make our fair matchups a lot stronger.
My experience with this deck is that when you have Vial, or Arbiter (or both), you are a ridiculously strong tempo deck. If you don't get this start, however, you turn into an aggro deck that struggles to get there, or trying to play control against Jund. Neither of these situations is ideal.
If Thalia was cut from the main and relegated to the sideboard, we could then play stuff like Elspeth in the main. This means our strong tempo starts are more likely to just kill them before they can play a game, and our slower starts get easier to deal with because we have some semblance of a mid-late game when our denial comes too late. Part of the reason GW is having more success is because whether or not they get their hatebears, they can always guarantee that you're going to be copping the beats - between Voice, or Smiter even Ooze.
Current mono-white lists just don't have the "I beat face with stupid creatures" plan. Perhaps it's time to concede some % points against unfair decks (which we are strong against) and start working on a better aggro plan when stuff doesn't go perfectly.
Note: I am playing the control/Geist hybrid variant.
Every time I've won it has been because I stuck an early Clique/Geist, got the early Tec Edge and drew a fistful of burn - and then I barely get there.
Is hoping for the above the only way we win? Does the 2x Sowing Salt or Molten Rain make a huge difference from the side? Stony Silence would help if we stuck it early, but a 2 of in the board isn't going to happen that reliably.
Perhaps this is just a mediocre matchup, but are there other ways to improve it that I am missing?
Just a quick question- what does the OP mean by this:
"12. Be sure to TAKE YOUR TIME when announcing that you will be using Karakas or Vialing in a Flickerwisp to save Mangara. Give your opponent an opportunity to blow a Lightning Bolt on him or make some similar mistake. You must retain priority, but until you say that you are passing it or make some other action, you still have it."
Can someone please explain this to me? I'm not quite sure what it means.
It means to feel free to pause and think a little when activating Mangara. Inexperienced players may try to burn removal on Mangara, at which point you save it with Karakas or Flickerwisp. In other words, allow your opponent to misplay by not blurting out what your'e doing too early.
G1: I have no idea what he's playing until he drops an Oblivion Stone and wipes my board. Luckily I still have a Grunt. I port him and get 2 swings in. I drop a Thalia, and whittle down his life. I keep developing my board with a Revoker (naming O-stone) and SFM fetching SoFaF, put it into play and equipping it. He drags the game with a few Moment's Peace. Eventually he drops a Wurmcoil, which threatens to help him stabilize. He swings, but I fog with Thalia + Karakas. I finish him off next turn.
-4 Mum +2 Revoker +2 Etutor
G2: I get 2 revokers early, naming O-stone and Mindslaver. He doesn't do a whole lot, just dropping lands. I Flick his Simic Growth Chamber during his turn with Vial to set him back. On my turn I do this again, before Wasting it during my end step. He's now down to 1 land and can't come back, but time runs out.
1-0 1-0-1
R2: Sneaky Show
G1: I know what he's playing since my friend scouted him out during round 1 (he had a bye). I get the god hand with Vial, Thalia and Karakas. He Show and Tells - I drop SFM and tutor up SoFaI, he drops Emrakul. I drop Karakas and bounce Emrakul. SoFaI and beats get there.
-4 StP +2 Revoker +2 Etutor
G2: Basically more of the same. Early Thalia, wasteland his lone land, SFM into SoFaI. He was never really in it.
2-0 3-0-1
R3: UW Stoneblade with Mutavaults
G1: This doesn't go well for me. Vial is Forced, Thalia is Snared. He gets SFM into Jitte. I get SFM into SoFaI, since I have Revoker. I drop Revoker naming Jitte, but it's StPed. I should have gotten Jitte here since I have 2 Wisps. Jitte comes online for him and I don't manage to come back.
G2: I get a fast start with Vial into Mum and Revoker naming Jitte. He Wraths, but I still have Wisp in hand, so I Vial it in and start the beats. He drops SFM into Batterskull and I StP. I drop Mangara next turn and threaten to exile everything with Karakas. He has the 2 StPs to stop me though. Eventually Batterskull comes down and despite a Thalia + Karakas fog taking him by surprise, I can't race him.
2-1 3-2-1
R4: Dredge
G1: I have Vial and Thalia, but Dredge doesn't really care too much. I can't find a Grunt so he starts pumping the board with Zombies and Ichorids. I have SFM into SoFaI to try to race. I'm forced to use the shock to take out his 3 Bridges. In the end, he outraces me by a turn. This match actually takes quite a while.
-3 Mangara -2 Revoker +3 Etutor +1 Wheel +1 Grunt
G2: He has a quick start and starts dredging a ton. I have the Grunt to stop him though. He can't afford to stop and let Grunt die, so he keeps dredging. I cherrypick his graveyard each turn and kill him.
G3: We go to time and even though I mull into oblivion, he can't kill me in time.
Overall I felt the main performed well, and the sideboard was probably off by a couple of cards. Arbiters were useless, and I probably needed a Relic or Crypt in addition to Wheel for Dredge. I didn't expect Stoneblade to be as tough as it was, but the Mutavaults were good since he was running SoFaI in addition to Batterskull and Jitte.
All I want to say is: if Modern is as popular and as awesome as some people in this thread seem to think, then why are they finding it difficult to get enough players to play it?
I still dont like the jace or the batterskull. Then again my build is drastically different. I'm actually not sure if it's worth going heavier black for Sorin over splashing red and having a single watery grave for souls.
I am not sure this list can even really be classified under Caw-Blade. Minus your elspeth's, cryptic's, and Shackles / equipment, It looks like a bad version of delver with the exception that there is no delver. You were declaring a lot about tempo and this is definitely more of a tempo than a control deck, much less an actual Caw-Blade deck. It seems that you are trying to take two powerful, yet completely different, strategies and mash them together.
Here is a list from tempo that is very similar to your current. I would probably recommend that we continue this discussion in the U/x Tempo thread since it is pretty irrelevant here.
This deck runs cards tailored more towards what you are trying to do so I would suggest you review it and compare it to your current list. This list is a little outdated as well but the general idea is still there.
You're right, it does have a bit of tempo in it.
I actually started from Isochron Delver tempo and over time it became what it currently is.
What I'm aiming for is a control deck that can go tempo when it needs to against strategies that trump it.
It still play like a control deck most of the time though.
No, but Dread of Night or Engineered Plague naming humans is much worse.
In any case, it doesn't look like my opinions align with the consensus here.
After playing DnT exclusively in Legacy for years, it's a little disappointing, but perhaps the Modern version just isn't for me.
Perhaps I am playing it wrong then. I usually don't go for the turn 3 Geist into their counter mana.
I also don't run Ajani - instead I have Resto angel in those slots.
I'm not sure if Ajani would be better in that slot, to be honest. What other decks is Ajani good against? I'd imagine it would come out against aggro, while Resto can be semi-relevant.
Here's the list, so there's something to look at. The Arid Mesa is due to budget - they should be Scalding Tarns. As mentioned above, the Sowing Salts are the iffy slots in the side.
4 Celestial Colonnade
3 Island
3 Tectonic Edge
2 Steam Vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Sulfur Falls
2 Glacial Fortress
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Restoration Angel
2 Electrolyze
2 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
2 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Mana Leak
1 Lightning Helix
1 Path to Exile
1 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Stony Silence
2 Sowing Salt
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Wrath of God
2 Counterflux
2 Celestial Purge
I don't think this is a good way to think about it.
Yes, all the good spells in Modern are taxed by Thalia. That's what Thalia does.
In Legacy, Thalia is a must because suddenly you have to pay 1 to FoW. Or if you're Storm you probably just can't win through it. It is backbreaking, and is comparable to what Arbiter does in Modern if they're running fetches.
In Modern, most of the time, you're forcing them to pay an extra 1 to bolt it. It's annoying, but usually just a minor speed bump.
The question isn't how many spells Thalia taxes, but how many matchups there are where it's backbreaking. By that, I mean on it's own - not piggybacking off Arbiter when you're effectively already ahead.
Now, I concede Elspeth may not be the answer. It may be Swords (though I dislike this plan without SFM), it could be Ajani, it may even be to splash.
All I'm saying is: at its best, Thalia is a good complementary piece to the core of Arbiter/Mindcensor/Vial/Ghost Quarter. On average, however, when you don't have your ideal board state, it's a speed bump.
The fact is, unfair decks in modern aren't that popular/successful, whilst grindy fair decks are. Look at GW Hatebears. What little "hate" creatures it runs are almost accidental. It's closer to straight up GW aggro than what its name suggest. Yet it seems to be doing a lot better than DnT, which is completely focused on shutting down the opponent. Some allowances can be made for playskill requirements - but I think the reason for their success is more that dumb beats win games in Modern.
We need to adjust to suit the format.
Modern is predominantly dominated by fair decks. Thalia is really not that great against fair decks. At the moment, the fact that we have Thalia is stopping us from playing stuff like Elspeth, which will make our fair matchups a lot stronger.
My experience with this deck is that when you have Vial, or Arbiter (or both), you are a ridiculously strong tempo deck. If you don't get this start, however, you turn into an aggro deck that struggles to get there, or trying to play control against Jund. Neither of these situations is ideal.
If Thalia was cut from the main and relegated to the sideboard, we could then play stuff like Elspeth in the main. This means our strong tempo starts are more likely to just kill them before they can play a game, and our slower starts get easier to deal with because we have some semblance of a mid-late game when our denial comes too late. Part of the reason GW is having more success is because whether or not they get their hatebears, they can always guarantee that you're going to be copping the beats - between Voice, or Smiter even Ooze.
Current mono-white lists just don't have the "I beat face with stupid creatures" plan. Perhaps it's time to concede some % points against unfair decks (which we are strong against) and start working on a better aggro plan when stuff doesn't go perfectly.
Thoughts?
Note: I am playing the control/Geist hybrid variant.
Every time I've won it has been because I stuck an early Clique/Geist, got the early Tec Edge and drew a fistful of burn - and then I barely get there.
Is hoping for the above the only way we win? Does the 2x Sowing Salt or Molten Rain make a huge difference from the side? Stony Silence would help if we stuck it early, but a 2 of in the board isn't going to happen that reliably.
Perhaps this is just a mediocre matchup, but are there other ways to improve it that I am missing?
Judge's Familiar
Creature - Bird
Flying
Sacrifice Judge's Familiar : Counter target instant or sorcery spell unless its controller pays 1.
1/1
On color Cursecatcher looks pretty strong. It even flies.
It means to feel free to pause and think a little when activating Mangara. Inexperienced players may try to burn removal on Mangara, at which point you save it with Karakas or Flickerwisp. In other words, allow your opponent to misplay by not blurting out what your'e doing too early.
List for reference:
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
11 Plains
Creatures
4 Mother of Runes
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Swords to Plowshares
Artifacts
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Circle of Protection: Red
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Oust
1 Stony Silence
3 Leonin Arbiter
3 Enlightened Tutor
Rd1: Cloudpost Turbofog:
G1: I have no idea what he's playing until he drops an Oblivion Stone and wipes my board. Luckily I still have a Grunt. I port him and get 2 swings in. I drop a Thalia, and whittle down his life. I keep developing my board with a Revoker (naming O-stone) and SFM fetching SoFaF, put it into play and equipping it. He drags the game with a few Moment's Peace. Eventually he drops a Wurmcoil, which threatens to help him stabilize. He swings, but I fog with Thalia + Karakas. I finish him off next turn.
-4 Mum +2 Revoker +2 Etutor
G2: I get 2 revokers early, naming O-stone and Mindslaver. He doesn't do a whole lot, just dropping lands. I Flick his Simic Growth Chamber during his turn with Vial to set him back. On my turn I do this again, before Wasting it during my end step. He's now down to 1 land and can't come back, but time runs out.
1-0 1-0-1
R2: Sneaky Show
G1: I know what he's playing since my friend scouted him out during round 1 (he had a bye). I get the god hand with Vial, Thalia and Karakas. He Show and Tells - I drop SFM and tutor up SoFaI, he drops Emrakul. I drop Karakas and bounce Emrakul. SoFaI and beats get there.
-4 StP +2 Revoker +2 Etutor
G2: Basically more of the same. Early Thalia, wasteland his lone land, SFM into SoFaI. He was never really in it.
2-0 3-0-1
R3: UW Stoneblade with Mutavaults
G1: This doesn't go well for me. Vial is Forced, Thalia is Snared. He gets SFM into Jitte. I get SFM into SoFaI, since I have Revoker. I drop Revoker naming Jitte, but it's StPed. I should have gotten Jitte here since I have 2 Wisps. Jitte comes online for him and I don't manage to come back.
-3 SFM -1 Jitte -1 SoFaF -1 SoFaI +3 Arbiter +2 Revoker +1 Grunt
G2: I get a fast start with Vial into Mum and Revoker naming Jitte. He Wraths, but I still have Wisp in hand, so I Vial it in and start the beats. He drops SFM into Batterskull and I StP. I drop Mangara next turn and threaten to exile everything with Karakas. He has the 2 StPs to stop me though. Eventually Batterskull comes down and despite a Thalia + Karakas fog taking him by surprise, I can't race him.
2-1 3-2-1
R4: Dredge
G1: I have Vial and Thalia, but Dredge doesn't really care too much. I can't find a Grunt so he starts pumping the board with Zombies and Ichorids. I have SFM into SoFaI to try to race. I'm forced to use the shock to take out his 3 Bridges. In the end, he outraces me by a turn. This match actually takes quite a while.
-3 Mangara -2 Revoker +3 Etutor +1 Wheel +1 Grunt
G2: He has a quick start and starts dredging a ton. I have the Grunt to stop him though. He can't afford to stop and let Grunt die, so he keeps dredging. I cherrypick his graveyard each turn and kill him.
G3: We go to time and even though I mull into oblivion, he can't kill me in time.
Overall I felt the main performed well, and the sideboard was probably off by a couple of cards. Arbiters were useless, and I probably needed a Relic or Crypt in addition to Wheel for Dredge. I didn't expect Stoneblade to be as tough as it was, but the Mutavaults were good since he was running SoFaI in addition to Batterskull and Jitte.
I'd say BUG is pretty darn close.
The answer should be pretty obvious.
I still dont like the jace or the batterskull. Then again my build is drastically different. I'm actually not sure if it's worth going heavier black for Sorin over splashing red and having a single watery grave for souls.
I'm not sure pure control even with Gifts is good enough when so much of the meta is made up of Tron variants.
You're right, it does have a bit of tempo in it.
I actually started from Isochron Delver tempo and over time it became what it currently is.
What I'm aiming for is a control deck that can go tempo when it needs to against strategies that trump it.
It still play like a control deck most of the time though.