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  • posted a message on Mythic Midrange (WBR)
    Quote from MrRotten
    Ok, I need opinions...

    Sire of Insanity?

    He really is INSANE!

    I love it though because it just gives us such a oddity and a unique feel of BWR over the sister decks of BW and BR.

    I was working heavily with the TCG list that had Sire in the mainboard.

    I feel like if built right, our Top Decks are out right amazing compared to most decks. ---> Am I crazy to think this?

    That question is what I'm wrestling with... Am I being too cocky and too arrogant in assuming in a top deck war, we would usually win out?

    1 person in my play group seems to think so, I value his opinion a great deal, but I'm struggling to buy into that opinion.

    For anyone that's play with Sire in the main or SB, chime in.

    I feel Sire is probably even good VS Devotion decks, but then I remember he is a 6 drop. A lot of Devotion decks have already done their damage and have a soft lock board position that is damn near impossible to beat by turn 6 if you haven't done anything to deal with it already by then. So Sire wouldn't help.

    Sire is such a unique card, I want badly for him to work, but I'm starting to think it's just a gimmick....?

    Someone tell me otherwise, PLEASE! Smile


    Sire is good if you run Keyrunes as additional beaters and acceleration to get him out sooner.

    The main reason old Jund decks ran him was because he became an uncounterable Rakdos's Return alongside Cavern of Souls, and their creatures were way more threatening on their own (Huntmaster synergises well with an empty hand from your opponent, Olivia wrecks faces when unanswered, etc.). Not to mention that it had ways of using all of its mana even without cards in hand (Scav Ooze, Olivia, and Wolf Run). BWR can compete on the former axis, but lacks options on the latter.

    I do like the idea of Sire alongside Obzedat, since it reduces your opponents' options to effectively nothing. But that's mostly wishful thinking on my part.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on Mythic Midrange (WBR)
    Quote from MrRotten
    GM2 I'm siding out all 4 of my Thoughtseize.

    That's really THE ONLY matchup I side out Thoughtseize.


    I side out my three maindeck for Mono-Red, but I like to keep no more than 2 in against the G/W decks or Boros. Being able to nab combat tricks or force them to use them at inopportune times shouldn't be underestimated.

    I think I run more instant-speed removal than several of these lists, though. I'm still sold on Doom Blade as a good option for this deck, and I like my 1-of Hero's Downfall and pair of Helixes. Being able to interact with Boon Satyr, Advent of the Wurm, Stormbreath Dragon, and potentially Aetherling just feels too good to pass up.

    Quote from Novajoe
    I keep seeing chandra pop up in these decks. i'm not quite sold on her, since she doesn't actually give much value with her +1 and her 0 has the real possibility of simply exiling cards you don't need right now (but might need later). She's just very low-impact to me. When I was testing her the biggest play I had with her was to play her, ping something, and fog a bunch of damage for a turn. I'd much rather either be playing desecration demon, stripping their hand of their answer for my 5 drop, or holding up for removal on turn 4, which is consequently when advent of the wurm, desecration demon, reaper of the wilds, and jace come down.


    GerryT has done some writing on Chandra in B/R/x Midrange decks. His impression is that she is a glorified Underworld Connections. I tend to agree with him on that.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on Mythic Midrange (WBR)
    So you are saying that your games against Mono Red are to waste 2 slots to side in for what should be a much easier match than UWB, UW, Naya Midrange and the Mirror?

    I never said it did not kill things in the Mono Red match, but just because it can kill something does not make it good.

    Thoughtseize makes your tougher match ups better, not your better match ups better...


    Just how many cards do you have to side in to make those matchups winnable?

    I'm already siding in a whopping 8 cards against Esper and UB, and my threats don't change from matchup to matchup. Obzedat is still the best card against them, Whip makes him insane, and so much of your removal is dead anyways (Chained to the Rocks, Mortars, and Anger are all pretty embarrassing, even if you can Anger an army of your Reckoners for a stolen win).

    Naya? Glare actually deals with a lot of their big threats, and they have no way to beat Assemble the Legion or reasonably beat a protected Elspeth.

    The mirror plays out like Jund mirrors used to: land a Connections and don't be the first to run out of removal.

    Against Mono-Red, killing everything in sight is the best way to win. It makes you less vulnerable to Burning Earth, Phoenix recursion, and topdeck blowouts. The matchup gets harder post-board specifically because of Burning Earth. Your life total is more precious in that matchup than any other. I'd rather take extra precaution to protect it with 1-mana instant-speed removal, especially over maindeck Thoughtseizes.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on Mythic Midrange (WBR)
    Shock is bad.

    Early removal should just be Dreadbore, Mortars, and Chained to the Rocks.

    If you really are wanting to kill their turn 1 or turn 2 play, either use the above spells or don't waste a slot dealing with a turn 1 play. No turn 1 creature in the format is so detrimental to your game plan that you should seriously consider Shock. Ever.

    Mono Red is not a tough enough match up for us to start running poor removal spells like Shock, and if it is for you, rework your deck or strengthen your play.


    All of the three options you listed are Sorcery speed.

    Shock is better than all of these out of the board because literally every creature in Mono-Red except Reckoner has 2 or less toughness. It even deals with Mutavault.

    Sideboard cards make matchups better. Build a maindeck that has good odds against a field and then plan your sideboard to strengthen those matchups in games 2 and 3. Shock is a card that makes a matchup better, much more so than Thoughtseize, especially when they run haste guys like Phoenix and Zealot.

    Is it Lightning Bolt? No. But it's a good option for what Mono-Red has geared up to be.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on Mythic Midrange (WBR)
    Quote from Rhinne
    well, i run shock as a SB x2, so i can tell you why.
    Turn 2 shock with a shockland/scryland. Thats the reason.
    T1 youplay a shockland or a scryland. T2 youplay another one of those, then shock the attacking dude with the other land. You just took 0 damage over the course of 2 turns, fixied yourmana (and possibly) your next draw.


    Shock is a 3-of in my board. I've yet to be disappointed by it. It's effectively Swords to Plowshares against Mono-Red. The difference between 1 and 2 mana on a removal spell is monstrous, especially in a deck like this that tends to play a turn behind its opponent to begin with.

    An argument can be made for Magma Jet instead, but I prefer the 1 CMC to the Scry 2. I've run into a lot of situations where I can Reckoner and hold Shock up on turn 4 against the Red decks. It's just nuts and is incredibly mana efficient.

    As I continue to test I am finding that Mono-Red just cannot beat us post-board without a Burning Earth on the table.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on Mythic Midrange (WBR)
    Christ, only 7 copies of Burning Earth in the top 16? That makes me feel a lot better about this deck going forward.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Primer] U/W Control
    Quote from LewisCBR
    Red is rampant. Everywhere online, that is. I would expect the same at your FNM since it is such a cheap and no brainer deck to put together.

    We need to tailor the main deck to hand red game 1 or you are toast. No creatures (besides one Aetherling or whatever) is good in theory, but it doesnt play out that well. I had a match game against Red where i supremed twice (taking two creatures each time) and pulled 2 detention spheres and still lose.

    The fact that you need a turn 4 Verdict and yet still is iffy is a problem. I'm at a loss.


    Red is definitely not rampant at my store. There are maybe 4 people playing it. The meta is quite healthy.

    Also, Ratchet Bomb is a thing in my list.

    I like the deck I personally think 4 revs dont fit well. I would rock 4 jace is he too good not to run. Apart from that deck looks solid as anything and for sideboard I am running:

    3 Glare of heresy
    2 Jace Mem
    1 Dispel
    2 Negate
    2 Pithing Needle
    3 Yoked Ok
    2 Last Breath

    has done well in testing so far


    I'm still not sure how much I like Yoked Ox. I mean, yeah, he helps you beat mono-Red, but... I'm just not a huge fan of a 0/4 in theory. I'll try him out at some point today before making a final decision.
    Posted in: UW/x Control
  • posted a message on Mythic Midrange (WBR)
    Part of the problem is that a lot of the early threats are less than optimal game 1 (looking at you, Boros Reckoner).

    I've thought about running Sin Collector maindeck to shore up that part of the matchup, but there are issues with that, too; he's essentially a 2/1 for 3 mana against the G/x midrange decks. Sometimes he's decent and nabs a Lightning Strike, but he feels pretty bland unless you snatch an Advent or the like.

    Thoughtseize goes a long way, but it feels awkward overloading on them maindeck when Mono Red is the aggro deck of choice. That, and it's still hard to close out a game against Esper without a big Rakdos's Return before they start chaining Revelations.

    I really wish there was a 2-drop good enough to play against the field. Farseek is part of what made Jund so good against everything. Magma Jet is a start, but I don't think it's quite there. Pointing it at their face still feels pretty lackluster, and Scry 2 never felt like a lot when testing against Esper or UW.

    I'd almost even take Sign in Blood at this point.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Primer] U/W Control
    I plan on playing this list in a win-a-box on Tuesday. I will be testing it throughout the weekend.



    Some preliminary thoughts going into testing:

    • I really liked the look of Max Tietze's list from Worcester, but wanted to play another Revelation and another land. I cut one Jace and the Quicken for these additions.
    • I like 27 lands. I want to ensure that I hit all of my land drops. The additional land is a Mutavault to compensate for potential flooding.
    • I'm not convinced that Quicken is as good as stated, despite the blowout factor. I would prefer consistency. I'm sure I'll test it at some point this weekend.
    • I like an additional Revelation over the 4th Jace. Drawing multiples of Jace didn't feel great last standard, and I expect much of the same now. Conversely, chaining Revelations is incredible.
    • Aetherling is my creature finisher of choice, with Mutavault to supplement as a potential beater/blocker as needed. Aetherling, though mana-intensive, is resilient, evasive, and presents a fast clock. He is basically everything I want in a finisher.
    • I played with 1 Elspeth last week in a BRW Midrange shell, and she always overperformed. I'm playing 2 in this deck for pretty obvious reasons.
    • The sideboard lacks a bit of focus, but I think the tools are there. I'm playing Last Breath and Dispel over Yoked Ox. Last Breath deals with Chandra's Phoenix and Voice of Resurgence, and Dispel shores up control mirrors (which UW is generally worse at than Esper and UB).

    Any general critique is welcome. I should report back with post-testing results on Monday and a post-event breakdown on Tuesday or Wednesday.
    Posted in: UW/x Control
  • posted a message on Mythic Midrange (WBR)
    Quote from MrRotten
    The points your making seem to suggest that you're wanting this as an early option...

    Maybe I misunderstood? LOL


    You misunderstood. I was arguing that RtB is better at any point when you would want to cast Connections, assuming that you are matched up against an aggressive opponent.

    You don't want TO CAST RtB or Connections before Turn 4 at the earliest...

    Having one sitting in my hand makes me giddy though, because once I hold off the Aggro deck for 5 turns, I know I'll be able to start replenishing my hand with Threats/Answers to end the game.


    The same is true of RtB. More importantly, I get to always see the cards before I draw them. Sandbagging the RtB gains more value the longer you hold onto it; you know what cards are needed (lands? removal? threats?)

    If you're casting either of those 2 spells before Turn 4, it's either a Desperation Move, or simply your opponent hasn't done anything yet that warrants answering and thus you decide to play it...?

    Neither spell is really worth much at Turn 3.

    If you're casting RtB on Turn 3, sure you potentially dig through 4 spells, but do you know enough of your matchup at that point to make the right decisions on what to bury and what to keep?

    You dig through 4 cards while still having a pretty good amount of cards in hand, if you kept a good hand, there should be answers in to deal with the board.

    If there are not, and you feel desperate enough to play RtB, you're probably already losing and there isn't much going to save you within the next 2 or 3 turns. You kept a bad hand...


    I think there's a little bit of misunderstanding. We are in agreement here. Both of them are terrible early drops against a plethora of decks. I am arguing that RtB is better against more decks. Connections and RtB are wonderful turn 5+ plays after you establish board presence.

    Connections should be classified as a 4 Drop


    Yes.

    and like I said, with the Interaction with Magma Jet, it digs almost as good as Read the Bones.


    Sure.

    To me it's a more consistent way to go and over the long haul, you'll want Connections > RtB.


    I disagree. Spending a single card for an effect is relevant. RtB > Jet a dude is 6 cards compared to 4 from Connections > Jet. It takes a while for Connections to catch up to RtB in terms of CA, and it's in control matchups where you can usually spend as much life as you want that Connections truly shines.

    Then again, I looked over your list, and I'm still running Helix. So maybe that's just an overall preference in the list in general.

    RtB digs through 4 cards, what if those 4 cards are all removal options and your Threats are clumped deeper?

    The RtB just blanked where as Connections still helps me to keep digging through it.


    As was said earlier, RtB just jumped through all four of those cards at once, and Connections is going to jump through them over four turns. Also, you can't really use deck state to evaluate a card. Every given deck state is just as likely as the others.

    I'm moving on, done with the discussion.


    I am merely trying to promote discussion and ask questions for your justification of a card that is typically relegated to the sideboard.

    I do like Connections, but not all the time. And this is definitely not theory. This is playtesting. It's never been more impressive than RtB to me against anything but control decks.

    Quote from magik_freak
    On Warleader's Helix, I have to say that 4 damage is not what it used to be. It rarely trades efficiently for a creature any more and some of the biggest threats in the format are either immune or have 5+ toughness. I still like the card because killing an aggresive creature and negating one of its attacks is very useful. It can also go to the dome and, unlike mizzium mortars, can hit planeswalkers in the control matchup.


    I actually still like Helix specifically for these reasons. It domes to the face, it gains life, and it removes a pretty hefty sum of creatures.

    On Magma Jet...I am fine being alone on this one. It just doesn't have enough targets to warrant inclusion. When it has a target it is the best spell in the deck. When it doesn't it is worse than an Augury Owl. If you have trouble with mono-red throw a pair in the sideboard, but we have many more versatile removal spells that are needed in many matches for the maindeck.


    Also agree with this one. I keep Shock relegated to the sideboard for when I need really cheap removal. Magma Jet is no different, though I am considering testing it again.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on Mythic Midrange (WBR)
    Also, if you're feeling desperate enough to play RtB on Turn 3, then you probably kept a bad hand, or you're one of the most unluckiest persons I know. Which is impossible, because that's generally me. LOL


    I was never trying to suggest that RtB was an optimal turn 3 play. Underworld Connections is a far better turn 3 play against the right decks. Read the Bones is a better late-game drop because of the instant advantage you get out of digging potentially four cards deep and getting two of them. Connections is incremental advantage. Against the field, I'd rather have the advantage when I cast the spell, not a few turns down the line while continuously tying up my mana production.

    Wars of attrition, which would you rather have, Connections or RtB. <<<< Rhetorical...


    There's no real war of attrition versus aggressive decks. You remove their dudes. They try to play more dudes. You play bigger dudes than they can deal with and some lifegain to stabilize. End of story.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on Mythic Midrange (WBR)
    Quote from MrRotten
    The argument here is moot, VS Aggro you really don't like RtB in a lot of situations either where Connections is more harmless then RtB.

    I mainboarded Connections simply to save the slots in the side and because it's not terrible VS Aggro and is really great VS Control.


    When are you dropping this Connections against aggro decks? The life-loss is manageable with sufficient lifegain, but it is a tempo swing in a deck that really wants to just remove creatures in the early game. If you can't really afford to drop it early against the aggressive decks, then do you even want it in your early hands at all?

    When you do get to draw cards off of it, it's going to do a lot more damage to your own life total than RtB will. Sure, once you get to the late game with a resolved Blood Baron, Whip, or Ghost Dad, who cares? Your life total might as well be irrelevant. But until then, it's not. Connections is manageable in that you can control the pain, but then it might as well be a 3-mana do-nothing until you establish control of the game. At that point, it's a win-more; the cards barely matter against aggressive decks once you stabilize.

    RtB is also a far better topdeck when you're in a bind because it digs 4 cards deep. Topdecking an Underworld Connections anytime other than in the midgame against control generally feels terrible. To that extent, I would argue that Connections is generally more situational than RtB.

    Connections is a good card, but I don't think it has a place maindeck. RtB has been a better maindeck card in testing and in practice.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on Mythic Midrange (WBR)
    Quote from MrRotten
    Problem is, I really like my Sideboard, there isn't room to include Underworld Connections in the Side VS Control matchups.

    *snip*

    It seems dumb to me to have a card like Connections in the Side for control matchups, you either MB it or don't include it at all.


    RtB is a filter spell with a bit of card advantage tacked on. Connections is a Greed effect. They do very different things.

    Not running Connections in your sideboard against control seems like a mistake. They are almost always forced to answer it, because what control has going for it against beatdown decks is to kill all your guys until you run out of gas, then go over the top with Revelation. If you keep the good cards flowing, they can't do that.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Deck] Maverick
    I'm on the Junk train. It works because my meta is basically combo decks, Delver, and Deathblade.



    Most of the sideboard should be pretty self-explanatory. We decided on a 7-card combo hate package of 4 Thoughtseize, 1 Canonist, 1 O-Ring, and 1 Needle. For each of the three big combo decks (OmniTell, Sneak and Show, Storm), 6 of the 7 come in: always 4 Thoughtseize, then 2 of the 3 singletons:

    • Canonist + O-Ring for OmniTell
    • O-Ring + Needle for Sneak and Show
    • Canonist + Needle (on LED) for Storm

    Abrupt Decay and Surgical serve as general answers, and Persecution is blowout city. Bog beats out graveyards and Elspeth wrecks fair matchups.

    Cards of note in the maindeck:

    • Thrun, the Last Troll: I wanted a way to catch opponents off-guard and clock them quickly with a resilient threat. Elspeth and Gaddock aren't the nicest of friends, but Thrun can provide additional pressure under a Teeg. He also can't be Forced, Abrupt Decayed, or just interacted with in general.
    • Cavern of Souls: Uncounterable threats is a big deal against the Delver in my meta. They have a rough time dealing with threats protected by a Mom outside of countermagic, and Cavern prevents that. Plus, I actually run a fair number of important Humans: Mom, Thalia, and Knight, specifically.
    • Voice of Resurgence: This is admittedly a pet card, but I love playing with it. It's more just a fun slot-filler for now.

    Any thoughts on the list or suggestions for improvement are welcome.
    Posted in: Midrange
  • posted a message on [Vs.] Control deck eg. Solar fare and B/R/U control
    Quote from ello42
    Usually if we don't race wof them, probably dead right? Wads the side boards cards to counter it?


    Race. Don't over-extend. Utilize your guys to their full potential and extract as much value as possible. Play that Geist and ride it to victory. Same with Crusader against U/B, or Hero in general. If you have a single threat on board, DoJ becomes way more awkward for them. You can play reactionary at that point, because you have the beats established and fight against their answers.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
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