If I have 3 opponents, a Teferi's Veil in play and I attack with any myriad creature (Warchief Giant for example). The giant will spawn it's 2 myriad tokens and, at the end of the combat, I can stack the Teferi's veil effect and the token's exile at end of combat effect in a way that the tokens will phase out and not get exiled. Tokens do not cease to exist when phased out since they dont change zone. That way, next turn, I have 3 Warchief giants (the original and 2 tokens), which spawn an extra 6 tokens as I attack, assuming no one blocks or kill anything through this scenario.
I think I fixed the deck...I added 3 Psychosis Crawler and removed 1 Perplexing Chimera, the Etali, Primal Storm and the Diluvian Primordial...the crawlers deal sick damage with all the drawing I do. Played the deck again last friday and I won after dealing 17 damage to an opponent on the same turn...drawing 6 cards and attacking with a hasted 11/11 crawler right after a board wipe.
I don't know your budget but regardless of budget, we all like to find some cheap cards that are great additions to a deck. Here are some suggestions for blue/black:
Sepulchral Primordial - This card has a decent endgame impact in multiplayer and, since you play blue, you have multiple ways to copy it. Also, if there is a Clone or a similar card in one of your opponent's graveyard, you can bring it back, copy your primordial to bring back more creatures all over.
Hagra Mauling - This can help if you are looking for mana or if you have a threat to deal with....an overall good idea.
Animate Dead - At 2 mana it's not expensive to bring back the strongest creature available in graveyards. More choices of target in multiplayer games
Capital Punishment - Since each effect chosen affects all opponents, it will have a huge impact. Don't hesitate to choose taxes...even if all votes end up on "taxes", having each opponent discard 4 cards in a 4-player game is a major advantage. Even opponents with creatures would end up choosing "death" to avoid the horrible possibility of having 4 cards to discard.
Reins of Power - Possible game finisher and very decent defensive card...if you switch control of creatures during combat, they are no longer attacking.
Liliana's Triumph - Cheap way to get rid of a lot of creatures, instant speed too !
Syphon Mind - Great way to draw cards in multiplayer games
Phantasmal Image - Since the reprint, the value of this card dropped quite a bit. This card is cheap, can copy something big, you benefit from the come into play/leave play ability of the creature and it's sometimes surprising how long this will survive on the board...beware of Maze of Ith !
Counterspell - I hope you know about this one already =)
Diluvian Primordial - There are always a lot of nice instant/sorcery in these graveyards ! ...lovely in multiplayer games
Control Magic - Get rid of a threat and create one with only one card !
Evacuation - Doesn't permanently solve the problem but the fact that is instant speed allow you to wait until being threatened to use this.
Dredge the Mire - You get something from each opponent's graveyard ! ...even the worst creature in their deck was worth playing.
Fact or Fiction - Keep your mana open in case you want to cast something ...but if nothing is worth casting that Counterspell on, use that mana before your turn to draw some cards !
Duplicant - Another way to get rid of a threat and create one with only one card
Baleful Strix - This card is probably the best one from this list...I cannot insist enough on how good this guy is...it costs only 2 mana, it draws you a card to replace it, it will kill creatures in combat, it easily convinces anyone not to attack you and it can block mostly anything since it has flying !
Virtus's Maneuver - Very nice effects overall...especially if you have a team mate
Rite of Replication - This is a possible game finisher for 9 mana on the late game (use it on any Gray Merchant of Asphodel to drain a minimum of 60 life to each opponent !) and you are not stuck with it if you draw it early game (Did you hear that Rise of the Dark Realms ? ...I'm talking about you !) since you can play it for 4 mana ...I love cards that you are never sad of having in your hand.
These are the only few cheap cards that come to my mind right now but explore these forums and you will find a lot more.
Pendant of Prosperity allow me to draw 2 cards and put 2 lands into play if I am in control of the artifact. This allows me to put into play the lands that I draw with Humble Defector.
Wishclaw Talisman allows me to look for the missing combo pieces or for the only white mana producing land that I have in my deck. I can activate the talisman during my upkeep, after the second ability of The Fall of Lord Konda goes on the stack to regain control of the talisman right away, and prevent my opponent from being able to use it.
Overall the deck is much fun to play (I activated various Wishclaw Talisman 7 times during the same game on the second game I played with this deck last night) and the synergies are nice but I am missing a way to become a more important threat...or a way to finish the game. I keep activating my abilities all over but I don't do much damage and it takes me a long time before I become that much of a threat. I am looking to remove the Etali, Primal Storm and Diluvian Primordial and maybe some other cards and replace them with cards that I can tutor for and that will have a heavy impact on the game.
I would like to know what happens when 2 Impulsive Maneuvers are in play at the same time. As I understand it, it is a replacement effect for which 616.1 applies.
616.1. If two or more replacement and/or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected object’s controller (or its owner if it has no controller) or the affected player chooses one to apply, following the steps listed below. If two or more players have to make these choices at the same time, choices are made in APNAP order (see rule 101.4).
So, defending player decides which to apply ?
What happens in the following situations...
1) My creature attacks and I win my two coin flips. The creature does 4 times the amount of damage or only twice the amount of damage ?
2) My creature attacks and I lose one of my two coin flips. The defending player chooses to apply the replacement effect that mentions that my creature does no damage and my creature does no damage ?
Here is the new decklist. I am trying to get a Hunted Horror but the two stores I went to didnt have any. Will do first playtest of the deck this coming friday.
Each player in these games has a good 30+ decks so anything can happen. I've notice that my creature count is low...I am tempted to add some "Hunted" creatures (Hunted Horror, Hunted Dragon, etc...), since I have an opponent that I will want to help.
Thanks for the advices ...I knew I would get a comment on the mana...I know it's low and I will adjust as needed. Some of the cards in my list will surely perform worse than what I expect, I will probably replace several with lands. The other cards you suggested look good...I will add them.
I am building a new deck for multiplayer games. This deck will be used in games from 5 to 7 players where each other player is my opponent but at least one player is someone that I will try to help and that will try to help me.
With this in mind, I tried to include as many high impact cards as possible...cards that have a big impact in multiplayer games, cards that are stronger in multiplayer games or cards for which I have to help an opponent...since one of my opponents will be my ally. Please let me know if you can think of any card that I might have missed.
I agree that tutors are required and that Lim-Dul's Vault is a fine card for that matter, I simply think that 16 tutors (4 Vaults, 4 Fae, 4 Acquisition and 4 House Guards) is too many tutors.
As for win conditions, I played the deck yesterday, I had Fires of Invention in my opening hand so I transmuted my Dimir House Guard to get Syphon Mind. On turn 4, I played Fires and Syphon Mind. With 4 opponents, Syphon Mind gave me 4 cards. On turn 5, I played Warchief Giant and Rite of Replication + Kicker on it...I then attacked each other player with 6 5/3s for a total of 30 damage each.
Molten Primordial was in my deck until recently but I find it too expensive to play. I was hoping to play it and, in the same turn, make 5 copies of it to take control of pretty much every creature in play and attack with all of them right away to finish the game.
If you scroll up, you can find a recent decklist of the deck that I am running. I am thinking of adding some Myriad Landscape to help me get more lands when needed but I am not sure of how good a fit it would be in the deck. It's 3 colors and the land gives colorless.
If you play with several opponents, Syphon Mind is a nice card to fetch for with your Dimir House Guard. More cards in hand means more options and it's a great card to play on the same turn as Fires of Invention to ensure that you get your 5th land.
You run a lot of tutors, why so many ? ...you will spend your time looking for options instead of actually playing cards that will make you win the game. There is also stronger cards than Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God for this deck. I would rather see him in a planeswalker-oriented deck.
I'm not a big fan of Sphinx of Lost Truth ...I tried it and it always seemed to me that I was in one of these two situations:
1) I was looking for a Fires of Invention and this card didnt help me
or
2) I had my engine going and I had stronger cards in hand that I could play.
You might need more cards that will protect you in the early game....I like Bonecrusher Giant since it allows me to cast on turn 2 and turn 3 while waiting for turn 4 to play Fires of Invention
The closest I found to a Doomed Traveler that I can include in my deck would be a playset of Myr Servitor...which would hopefully return the ones that I self-milled at the beginning of my upkeep to have multiple creatures for a cost of 1 mana but it won't happen if someone kills the Myr I have in play and they arent black, so they dont trigger Ayara, First of Locthwain
If I have 3 opponents, a Teferi's Veil in play and I attack with any myriad creature (Warchief Giant for example). The giant will spawn it's 2 myriad tokens and, at the end of the combat, I can stack the Teferi's veil effect and the token's exile at end of combat effect in a way that the tokens will phase out and not get exiled. Tokens do not cease to exist when phased out since they dont change zone. That way, next turn, I have 3 Warchief giants (the original and 2 tokens), which spawn an extra 6 tokens as I attack, assuming no one blocks or kill anything through this scenario.
Is it right ?
Thanks,
Kain
Sepulchral Primordial - This card has a decent endgame impact in multiplayer and, since you play blue, you have multiple ways to copy it. Also, if there is a Clone or a similar card in one of your opponent's graveyard, you can bring it back, copy your primordial to bring back more creatures all over.
Hagra Mauling - This can help if you are looking for mana or if you have a threat to deal with....an overall good idea.
Animate Dead - At 2 mana it's not expensive to bring back the strongest creature available in graveyards. More choices of target in multiplayer games
Capital Punishment - Since each effect chosen affects all opponents, it will have a huge impact. Don't hesitate to choose taxes...even if all votes end up on "taxes", having each opponent discard 4 cards in a 4-player game is a major advantage. Even opponents with creatures would end up choosing "death" to avoid the horrible possibility of having 4 cards to discard.
Reins of Power - Possible game finisher and very decent defensive card...if you switch control of creatures during combat, they are no longer attacking.
Liliana's Triumph - Cheap way to get rid of a lot of creatures, instant speed too !
Syphon Mind - Great way to draw cards in multiplayer games
Phantasmal Image - Since the reprint, the value of this card dropped quite a bit. This card is cheap, can copy something big, you benefit from the come into play/leave play ability of the creature and it's sometimes surprising how long this will survive on the board...beware of Maze of Ith !
Counterspell - I hope you know about this one already =)
Diluvian Primordial - There are always a lot of nice instant/sorcery in these graveyards ! ...lovely in multiplayer games
Control Magic - Get rid of a threat and create one with only one card !
Evacuation - Doesn't permanently solve the problem but the fact that is instant speed allow you to wait until being threatened to use this.
Dredge the Mire - You get something from each opponent's graveyard ! ...even the worst creature in their deck was worth playing.
Fact or Fiction - Keep your mana open in case you want to cast something ...but if nothing is worth casting that Counterspell on, use that mana before your turn to draw some cards !
Duplicant - Another way to get rid of a threat and create one with only one card
Baleful Strix - This card is probably the best one from this list...I cannot insist enough on how good this guy is...it costs only 2 mana, it draws you a card to replace it, it will kill creatures in combat, it easily convinces anyone not to attack you and it can block mostly anything since it has flying !
Sphinx of Uthuun - Card draw and a decent threat
Virtus's Maneuver - Very nice effects overall...especially if you have a team mate
Rite of Replication - This is a possible game finisher for 9 mana on the late game (use it on any Gray Merchant of Asphodel to drain a minimum of 60 life to each opponent !) and you are not stuck with it if you draw it early game (Did you hear that Rise of the Dark Realms ? ...I'm talking about you !) since you can play it for 4 mana ...I love cards that you are never sad of having in your hand.
These are the only few cheap cards that come to my mind right now but explore these forums and you will find a lot more.
Have fun !
Kain
I haven't posted here for some time but I need some help with a new deck that I built...
4 Humble Defector
4 Treacherous Pit-Dweller
2 Starke of Rath
4 Perplexing Chimera
1 Etali, Primal Storm
1 Diluvian Primordial
Artifacts
1 Sol Ring
4 Wishclaw Talisman
4 Pendant of prosperity
2 Fervor
2 The Fall of Lord Konda
Spells
4 Brand
4 Dark Ritual
3 Malakir Rebirth
Lands
4 Homeward path
4 Exotic Orchard
3 Rakdos Carnarium
2 Luxury Suite
2 Dimir Aqueduct
1 Morphic Pool
2 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Training Center
1 Vault of Champions
Here are some synergies...
Humble Defector, Treacherous Pit-Dweller, Starke of Rath and Perplexing Chimera come back to my side using Homeward Path, Brand or The Fall of Lord Konda. I can gain control of a spell with the Chimera and then retake control of the Chimera using Homeward Path before the spell resolves and becomes a permanent for which I might lose control if I use Homeward path or The Fall of Lord Konda
Pendant of Prosperity allow me to draw 2 cards and put 2 lands into play if I am in control of the artifact. This allows me to put into play the lands that I draw with Humble Defector.
Wishclaw Talisman allows me to look for the missing combo pieces or for the only white mana producing land that I have in my deck. I can activate the talisman during my upkeep, after the second ability of The Fall of Lord Konda goes on the stack to regain control of the talisman right away, and prevent my opponent from being able to use it.
Overall the deck is much fun to play (I activated various Wishclaw Talisman 7 times during the same game on the second game I played with this deck last night) and the synergies are nice but I am missing a way to become a more important threat...or a way to finish the game. I keep activating my abilities all over but I don't do much damage and it takes me a long time before I become that much of a threat. I am looking to remove the Etali, Primal Storm and Diluvian Primordial and maybe some other cards and replace them with cards that I can tutor for and that will have a heavy impact on the game.
Thanks for your suggestions !
Kain
I would like to know what happens when 2 Impulsive Maneuvers are in play at the same time. As I understand it, it is a replacement effect for which 616.1 applies.
616.1. If two or more replacement and/or prevention effects are attempting to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected object’s controller (or its owner if it has no controller) or the affected player chooses one to apply, following the steps listed below. If two or more players have to make these choices at the same time, choices are made in APNAP order (see rule 101.4).
So, defending player decides which to apply ?
What happens in the following situations...
1) My creature attacks and I win my two coin flips. The creature does 4 times the amount of damage or only twice the amount of damage ?
2) My creature attacks and I lose one of my two coin flips. The defending player chooses to apply the replacement effect that mentions that my creature does no damage and my creature does no damage ?
Thank you,
Kain
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Hunted Phantasm
1 Dryad of the Ilysian Grove
1 Tahngarth, First Mate
1 Hunted Lammasu
1 Hunted Troll
1 Warchief Giant
1 Clackbridge Troll
1 Broodbirth Viper
1 Tendershoot Dryad
1 Prophet of Kruphix
1 Hunted Dragon
1 Banshee of the Dread Choir
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Etali, Primal Storm
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Sepulchral Primordial
1 Diluvian Primordial
1 Sylvan Primordial
Artifact (5)
1 Sol Ring
1 Fellwar Stone
1 Wishclaw Talisman
1 Coalition Relic
1 God-Pharaoh's Statue
Enchantment (12)
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Burgeoning
1 Mystic Remora
1 Blind Obedience
1 Luminarch Ascension
1 Duelist's Heritage
1 Rhystic Study
1 Aura of Silence
1 Curse of Disturbance
1 Smothering Tithe
1 The Eldest Reborn
1 Predatory Advantage
1 Scheming Symmetry
1 Liliana's Triumph
1 Counterspell
1 Mana Drain
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mire in Misery
1 Redirect
1 Manifold Insights
1 Trade Secrets
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Cultivate
1 Virtus's Maneuver
1 Crackling Doom
1 Fiery Justice
1 Syphon Mind
1 Blood Tithe
1 Decimate
1 Tempt with Discovery
1 Pir's Whim
1 Domineering Will
1 Windgrace's Judgment
1 Allure of the Unknown
1 Intellectual Offering
1 Syphon Flesh
1 Curtains' Call
1 Selvala's Stampede
1 Capital Punishment
1 Hex
1 Blasphemous Act
Lands (33)
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Simic Growth Chamber
1 Selesnya Sanctuary
1 Mystic Gate
1 Dimir Aqueduct
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Spire Garden
1 Bountiful Promenade
1 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Vivid Grove
1 Mirrodin's Core
1 Frontier Bivouac
1 Flooded Grove
1 Wooded Bastion
1 Darkwater Catacombs
1 Savannah
1 Sea of Clouds
1 Gruul Turf
1 Opulent Palace
1 Luxury Suite
1 Sungrass Prairie
1 Azorius Chancery
1 Rugged Prairie
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Morphic Pool
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Sandsteppe Citadel
1 Mossfire Valley
1 Exotic Orchard
Here is the new decklist. I am trying to get a Hunted Horror but the two stores I went to didnt have any. Will do first playtest of the deck this coming friday.
I'm not sure what to cut though.
I am building a new deck for multiplayer games. This deck will be used in games from 5 to 7 players where each other player is my opponent but at least one player is someone that I will try to help and that will try to help me.
With this in mind, I tried to include as many high impact cards as possible...cards that have a big impact in multiplayer games, cards that are stronger in multiplayer games or cards for which I have to help an opponent...since one of my opponents will be my ally. Please let me know if you can think of any card that I might have missed.
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Dryad of the Ilysian Grove
1 Voice of Many
1 Tectonic Giant
1 Tahngarth, First Mate
1 Warchief Giant
1 Clackbridge Troll
1 Broodbirth Viper
1 Tendershoot Dryad
1 Prophet of Kruphix
1 Banshee of the Dread Choir
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
1 Etali, Primal Storm
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Sepulchral Primordial
1 Diluvian Primordial
1 Sylvan Primordial
Artifact (5)
1 Sol Ring
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Fellwar Stone
1 Coalition Relic
1 God-Pharaoh's Statue
Enchantment (13)
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Burgeoning
1 Mystic Remora
1 Curse of Opulence
1 Blind Obedience
1 Luminarch Ascension
1 Duelist's Heritage
1 Rhystic Study
1 Aura of Silence
1 Curse of Disturbance
1 Smothering Tithe
1 The Eldest Reborn
1 Predatory Advantage
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Scheming Symmetry
1 Liliana's Triumph
1 Counterspell
1 Mana Drain
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mire in Misery
1 Redirect
1 Manifold Insights
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Cultivate
1 Virtus's Maneuver
1 Crackling Doom
1 Fiery Justice
1 Syphon Mind
1 Blood Tithe
1 Decimate
1 Tempt with Discovery
1 Pir's Whim
1 Domineering Will
1 Zndrsplt's Judgment
1 Windgrace's Judgment
1 Allure of the Unknown
1 Intellectual Offering
1 Syphon Flesh
1 Curtains' Call
1 Selvala's Stampede
1 Capital Punishment
1 Hex
1 Blasphemous Act
Planeswalker (1)
1 Dovin, Hand of Control
Lands (33)
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Simic Growth Chamber
1 Selesnya Sanctuary
1 Mystic Gate
1 Dimir Aqueduct
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Spire Garden
1 Bountiful Promenade
1 Izzet Boilerworks
1 Vivid Grove
1 Mirrodin's Core
1 Frontier Bivouac
1 Flooded Grove
1 Wooded Bastion
1 Darkwater Catacombs
1 Savannah
1 Sea of Clouds
1 Gruul Turf
1 Opulent Palace
1 Luxury Suite
1 Sungrass Prairie
1 Azorius Chancery
1 Rugged Prairie
1 Golgari Rot Farm
1 Morphic Pool
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Sandsteppe Citadel
1 Mossfire Valley
1 Exotic Orchard
I tried to focus on low mana cost cards (sorry Expropriate) to ensure that the deck doesn't get stuck with a lot of high mana cost cards in hand.
As for win conditions, I played the deck yesterday, I had Fires of Invention in my opening hand so I transmuted my Dimir House Guard to get Syphon Mind. On turn 4, I played Fires and Syphon Mind. With 4 opponents, Syphon Mind gave me 4 cards. On turn 5, I played Warchief Giant and Rite of Replication + Kicker on it...I then attacked each other player with 6 5/3s for a total of 30 damage each.
Threats that I am playing are:
Kenrith, the Returned King (to use it's abilities with my free mana)
Cavalier of Flame
Tetzimoc, Primal Death (possibly kill several creatures when played since I have a lot of free mana)
Infernal Darkness (Limits other players a lot)
Combustible Gearhulk (to possibly make 5 copies of it)
Rite of Replication (for obvious reasons)
Warchief Giant
Molten Primordial was in my deck until recently but I find it too expensive to play. I was hoping to play it and, in the same turn, make 5 copies of it to take control of pretty much every creature in play and attack with all of them right away to finish the game.
If you scroll up, you can find a recent decklist of the deck that I am running. I am thinking of adding some Myriad Landscape to help me get more lands when needed but I am not sure of how good a fit it would be in the deck. It's 3 colors and the land gives colorless.
You run a lot of tutors, why so many ? ...you will spend your time looking for options instead of actually playing cards that will make you win the game. There is also stronger cards than Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God for this deck. I would rather see him in a planeswalker-oriented deck.
I'm not a big fan of Sphinx of Lost Truth ...I tried it and it always seemed to me that I was in one of these two situations:
1) I was looking for a Fires of Invention and this card didnt help me
or
2) I had my engine going and I had stronger cards in hand that I could play.
You might need more cards that will protect you in the early game....I like Bonecrusher Giant since it allows me to cast on turn 2 and turn 3 while waiting for turn 4 to play Fires of Invention