Even if the cost was 1R and I could chain it off of a burning tree I would be super stoked about this card. I think it just barely misses the mark though...
@Jwelt : Hey ! Good to see you again on the thread and GGs for your results !
I would like to ask you what do you think about this Yahenni ? I love the creature and it can work as a sweet sacrifice outlet in your shell especialy because of bloodghast but in my list (whish is pretty your original list) I don't know...
And what do you think about hangarback ? I love it and already try it but I don't know if is a real deal.
If abzan and souls are a problem, try to run 1 or 2 liliana the last hope in the SB, this should do the trick, great card btw.
For the moment I want to try x4 gifted aetherborn. Also, I don't know if running fatal push without any fetchland could be a problem or not ? And if 3 is the right number ? Help me guys !
Yahenni, Undying Partisan? I love this card. It does everything we want in the deck. It passes the bolt test because of haste and the ability to get it out of range with a couple kills, and its sac ability. Easy inclusion here. I have tested 1 and 2 copies and I haven't decided yet how many I like. I am leaning towards 1, but it has proven to help win games for me.
Hangarback Walker was pretty good too. I was able to use the abilities quite effectively, but I have limited experience with this card. It is a good 1-of in a flex spot. Might be easier to manage than pack rat.
Liliana, the last hope - waiting for these to go on sale after rotation. I agree it is a good option in the sideboard.
This is my first time on this forum, but I've been playing this deck independently for a while now, I got 24th at the SCG Baltimore open, and I won TCG Delaware states a few days ago. The deck is competitive as is, I strongly believe that, it's just knowledge of the metagame and familiarity with your deck that's holding it back, I think with practice most games are winnable if you play them right.
I completely agree with you. Can you please share your list?
You need critical mass of artifacts not only for tezz +1, but also for his ultimate. Being that we don't do damage throughout the game you need 8-10 artifacts out when he needs to ultimate. This isn't really a debate - more of an established deckbuilding constraint.
Yea, these established deck building constraints are more or less what I was getting at. People aren't experimenting enough outside of those constraints. Seeing as how the deck isn't really 'established' (read:winning competitive tournaments) there isn't much point in having 'established' constraints. The deck feels very stagnant, despite having so many new toys.
What part about needing a "critical mass of artifacts" to make tezzeret work is in need of experimenting with?
That is like saying that you can play a delver of secrets deck without considering a critical mass of spells...
I guess the experimenting you are suggesting is removing tezzeret? lol
Maybe you have different goals... If you goal is to make a good thopter-sword deck, or a good artifact deck then sure. But it would appear that the goal of this thread is to make a good Tezzeret AoB deck. So yes - artifact count is an established deckbuilding constraint. You need a minimum number for the planeswalker to function in the deck...
One example could be playing some number of creatures, get a few chip shots in, so that you don't need the 8-10 artifacts on board when you ULT tezz, as you suggest. It may be the case that the only way to shoe horn some creatures in is to cut the artifact count. I'm not saying that's the answer, or even suggesting that. I'm saying that having 'established constraints' on a deck that isn't putting up any results is absurd and we should all be experimenting more.
And no, I'm not suggesting an experiment of removing Tezzeret. I'm not suggesting any experiment in particular. I just love Tezz, and Thopter-sword and Whir and want to make the deck great and see it do well.
As an aside, I have actually tried a few variations without tezz, but i haven't liked them much, or had a lot of success really. Lately I'm running 2-3 tezz.
So you are experimenting with removing artifacts in your Tezzeret deck then?
That's fine and all, but there is a minimum that sort of helps the individual card (Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas) actually work. Otherwise why is he in the deck? Makes no sense.
I think what you mean to argue is that you can build without whir, bridge, thopter sword, etc...
But if you are using tezzeret, there is a minimum threshold of artifacts required in the deck to make the individual card worth including. This isn't up for debate - it's simple probability. Perhaps why the deck's development is stagnating is because brewers are neglecting simple deck ratios in their construction
You need critical mass of artifacts not only for tezz +1, but also for his ultimate. Being that we don't do damage throughout the game you need 8-10 artifacts out when he needs to ultimate. This isn't really a debate - more of an established deckbuilding constraint.
Yea, these established deck building constraints are more or less what I was getting at. People aren't experimenting enough outside of those constraints. Seeing as how the deck isn't really 'established' (read:winning competitive tournaments) there isn't much point in having 'established' constraints. The deck feels very stagnant, despite having so many new toys.
What part about needing a "critical mass of artifacts" to make tezzeret work is in need of experimenting with?
That is like saying that you can play a delver of secrets deck without considering a critical mass of spells...
I guess the experimenting you are suggesting is removing tezzeret? lol
Maybe you have different goals... If you goal is to make a good thopter-sword deck, or a good artifact deck then sure. But it would appear that the goal of this thread is to make a good Tezzeret AoB deck. So yes - artifact count is an established deckbuilding constraint. You need a minimum number for the planeswalker to function in the deck...
Could you imagine if we had access to more artifact win conditions that weren't creatures?
What I would give to play with a card like cursed scroll in this deck...
Unless you are building around artifact creatures, your options are mostly "fluff." Look at a lantern control deck for example - all fluff... That's kind of our archetype at this point - more than the sum of its parts. That is if you are playing a tezzeret deck.
You need critical mass of artifacts not only for tezz +1, but also for his ultimate. Being that we don't do damage throughout the game you need 8-10 artifacts out when he needs to ultimate. This isn't really a debate - more of an established deckbuilding constraint.
@mjg94, I'm getting to the same headspace as you at the moment. We are actually the most viable we've been in a while now that so many creature strategies are emerging and we run bridges. However, Tezz just doesn't get the job done enough.
This deck needs better early interaction and more relevant artifacts to become viable. Fast mana would also help. Keep an eye out in future sets for cards like Baleful Strix, fast mana, and artifacts that do things that non-artifact cards in the deck already do.
I think the deck is viable as it stands, but as I said in previous posts it is a very difficult deck to play and master.
I agree baleful strix fould go a long way to improving the deck - in addition to more functional artifacts at low cmc (0-2). Right now most of the functional artifacts we have access to are utility cards ( like spellskite) or mana rocks.
Baleful strix - it's a card we really need. I am not waiting for it though. Each new set that print's artifacts matter effects helps this deck. Excited for the eventual return to mirrodin...
An unban of the artifact lands would help a lot too...
Balancing the critical mass of artifacts to make Tezz work, cmc and curve to make bridge work, and control elements to stay alive is a very difficult thing to do.
Back in the day when both jtms and tezz aob were legal in standard I took a deck featuring both to top8 in a major tournament. They play very very well together...
Some people may play more than 3 bullets int he main, but I can tell you as innocuous as they look when you're up against burn paying 1B to cantrip a nihil spellbomb or 1 for a useless pithing needle is not where you want to be. Obviously cards are dead in different matchups and its a trade-off on which matches you need to shore up and where you can accept losing some %. Since putting fatal push in the deck I've gone on a run of like 80% matches where the card completely stinks - scapeshifts, trons, ad nauseums, grixis/jeskai control, etc. Doesn't mean fatal push MD is incorrect.
But when you have to run some removal, and then you add 3 bullets like this... boy does it ever feel lame facing something like krark clan ironworks combo drawing a spellskite, pithing needle, and 2 fatal push.
Right, this is definitely a disadvantage, but I don't think it is more of a disadvantage than other control decks would have to deal with in these matchups.
For my experience push and discard have kept me in a lot more games than they have hindered my winning. Especially discard. I don't have much of any decks running around in my meta that do not run creatures that need blowing up... And I think that is characteristic of the "big" meta in modern right now. A lot of interactive creature - based decks running around. Take Death Shadow Zoo for example - wouldn't want to see that deck without push and/or some sort of discard in my opener.
Okay thanks. Just some comments ive seen implied that "silver bullets" where what was bringing the whole build down. Seemed silly to me but if thats not what the consensus is then i agree. So far whir has won me several games i would have otherwise lost with previous builds. However its been a very difficult deck to master. Still working kn that
Not directed at you BadMac, but i dont see how this small group of versatile artifacts is in anyway a disadvantage to this deck's game plan. Especially spellskite which is moreso a utility spell/survival tool and spellbomb which cantrips and can give you card advantage when combined with recursion.
When i see arguments against non-descript "silver bullets" in a whir build it kind of makes me scratch my head if this is what people are arguing against...
I can see an argument against including pentad prism as a bad late game draw (Similar to drawing a land in other control decks). But i dont understand the argument against versatile tutorable answers in a control deck...
I think it's a Meta-call. I'm definitely conceding to combo decks in favor of hosing interactive/midrange. If I was going the discard route I'd add TS/INQ/Liliana and cut whir/silver bullets while adding more surgicals in the board. That's actually my other version of this deck. I don't like counterspells in this deck. Blanking their hate cards is much more consistent then hoping to counter them and folding if you don't. I prefer to ignore stony silence which is why I dropped Darksteel citadel completely. Again, rest in peace has been the more crippling card against me.
Spine has been just ok so far but I need to get more testing with it. It's hard to cast against stony silence decks because I board out my mana rocks against them. I like it better against midrange/control as a catch-all. So far it feels too slow. I think it's better utilized in a Herald shell with Ichor wellspring/phyrexia's core style deck.
Can you explain what you see as the "whir/silver bullets" package?
This gets thrown around a lot in this forum but I don't think we are all talking about the same thing.
I suspect most people running such a package (such as myself) aren't relying heavily on any silver bullets at all and use the powerful new tutor to increase consistency for the combo and access to bridge...
I'm interested in what you mean by this, that we should "focus on one thing only, that is to control with Thopter/Sword/Tezz." In my experience and testing the Whir versions of this deck are far more consistent at this than previous versions at doing exactly that.
.....
I'm interested in why you favor Crane over Whir. Whir searches the whole deck, albeit at some cost, whereas crane only digs 4. I've cut 4 cranes, which I LOVED for 4 Whir, which I love MORE.
I think the deck should try to lock the board and take controle asap. And a lot of silver bullets can interfere with consistency of getting general control and a lock.
In my current build, I play with 4 Chalices main and E.Explosives and considering Walking Ballista instead of a second Spellskite. Therefore I'd prefer Crane, because I don't have room for silver bullets. Crane with Tezzeret provide a lot of digging and playing Crucible main with Inventor's Fair also gives me tutoring options. Also whir can sometimes be tough to cast with UUU. I agree Whir is better than Crane if you have more diversity of targets. I play one Whir though.
Im curious - what are the silver bullets you are speaking of... can you please list them?
How is testing going with skirk prostector going for people?
@martv
What is your analysis of Fanatical firebrand
How is BTE with the flame of keld (vs MB Atarka's Command)
Gobots?
Metalcraft enebler and ramp...
unsure personally. Glad to see a goblin in the spoilers.
Yahenni, Undying Partisan? I love this card. It does everything we want in the deck. It passes the bolt test because of haste and the ability to get it out of range with a couple kills, and its sac ability. Easy inclusion here. I have tested 1 and 2 copies and I haven't decided yet how many I like. I am leaning towards 1, but it has proven to help win games for me.
Hangarback Walker was pretty good too. I was able to use the abilities quite effectively, but I have limited experience with this card. It is a good 1-of in a flex spot. Might be easier to manage than pack rat.
Liliana, the last hope - waiting for these to go on sale after rotation. I agree it is a good option in the sideboard.
Thanks for posting your results - Gate On!
I completely agree with you. Can you please share your list?
Thanks
So you are experimenting with removing artifacts in your Tezzeret deck then?
That's fine and all, but there is a minimum that sort of helps the individual card (Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas) actually work. Otherwise why is he in the deck? Makes no sense.
I think what you mean to argue is that you can build without whir, bridge, thopter sword, etc...
But if you are using tezzeret, there is a minimum threshold of artifacts required in the deck to make the individual card worth including. This isn't up for debate - it's simple probability. Perhaps why the deck's development is stagnating is because brewers are neglecting simple deck ratios in their construction
What part about needing a "critical mass of artifacts" to make tezzeret work is in need of experimenting with?
That is like saying that you can play a delver of secrets deck without considering a critical mass of spells...
I guess the experimenting you are suggesting is removing tezzeret? lol
Maybe you have different goals... If you goal is to make a good thopter-sword deck, or a good artifact deck then sure. But it would appear that the goal of this thread is to make a good Tezzeret AoB deck. So yes - artifact count is an established deckbuilding constraint. You need a minimum number for the planeswalker to function in the deck...
What I would give to play with a card like cursed scroll in this deck...
Unless you are building around artifact creatures, your options are mostly "fluff." Look at a lantern control deck for example - all fluff... That's kind of our archetype at this point - more than the sum of its parts. That is if you are playing a tezzeret deck.
You need critical mass of artifacts not only for tezz +1, but also for his ultimate. Being that we don't do damage throughout the game you need 8-10 artifacts out when he needs to ultimate. This isn't really a debate - more of an established deckbuilding constraint.
I think the deck is viable as it stands, but as I said in previous posts it is a very difficult deck to play and master.
I agree baleful strix fould go a long way to improving the deck - in addition to more functional artifacts at low cmc (0-2). Right now most of the functional artifacts we have access to are utility cards ( like spellskite) or mana rocks.
Baleful strix - it's a card we really need. I am not waiting for it though. Each new set that print's artifacts matter effects helps this deck. Excited for the eventual return to mirrodin...
An unban of the artifact lands would help a lot too...
Balancing the critical mass of artifacts to make Tezz work, cmc and curve to make bridge work, and control elements to stay alive is a very difficult thing to do.
Back in the day when both jtms and tezz aob were legal in standard I took a deck featuring both to top8 in a major tournament. They play very very well together...
Right, this is definitely a disadvantage, but I don't think it is more of a disadvantage than other control decks would have to deal with in these matchups.
For my experience push and discard have kept me in a lot more games than they have hindered my winning. Especially discard. I don't have much of any decks running around in my meta that do not run creatures that need blowing up... And I think that is characteristic of the "big" meta in modern right now. A lot of interactive creature - based decks running around. Take Death Shadow Zoo for example - wouldn't want to see that deck without push and/or some sort of discard in my opener.
When i see arguments against non-descript "silver bullets" in a whir build it kind of makes me scratch my head if this is what people are arguing against...
I can see an argument against including pentad prism as a bad late game draw (Similar to drawing a land in other control decks). But i dont understand the argument against versatile tutorable answers in a control deck...
Can you explain what you see as the "whir/silver bullets" package?
This gets thrown around a lot in this forum but I don't think we are all talking about the same thing.
I suspect most people running such a package (such as myself) aren't relying heavily on any silver bullets at all and use the powerful new tutor to increase consistency for the combo and access to bridge...
Im curious - what are the silver bullets you are speaking of... can you please list them?