@Jwelt - I've been coming to the same conclusions as you. Too many mana sources, too many combo pieces. I've been trying to come up with strategies to address this as well. I suggest trying out a 3/1 split of Foundry/Sword. Sword is recursive in its own right, so we really only need 1 copy, we have plenty of ways to find it. I originally was testing as 2/1 split, but found that the extra foundry actually helps deal with some of the flooding issues a little bit by turning rocks and citadels into thopters. This could still be wrong, and I can see a 2/1 split still being optimal if we find another way to address flood. I originally tried running the 2nd sword in the board, but eventually removed it because the effects that hose our combo hose us whether we have 1 or 2 in the deck (RIP, Extract, Stony).
This gets me full circle to thinking about having the 2/1 split again, because it becomes easier to remove the combo entirely after game 1 if we expect those hard to deal with answers. We can replace the combo with value artifacts that have either static abilities, or ETB effects in order to have our Whirs still be great. I tried filigree familiar and Solemn Simulacrum here and didn't like either, but mileage may vary depending on deck lists; I'm very reactive, those two suggestions are proactive, so I suggest giving them a Whir anyways(pun intended).
I think this is a good angle of attack to help minimize bad draws. I think I might try a 3/1 split. The only time I have really lost sword entirely was when it was exiled with a thought-knot seer, which sucks. Luckily I had the extra copy I could whir for at a later point (I won that game). This is a real problem in the current meta if only running one copy of sword. There's a lot of tks running around these days between colorless eldrazi tron and bant...
Overall like I said in the lengthy post - I don't think our lategame draws are much worse that nother decks that take a similar approach of control. Probably about 4 extra potential "dead draws" in the deck. I think a good pilot can minimize this a bit and maximize the efficiency of locking the game down. At which point your draws aren't all that important anyways - you can afford to sit there and filter until you find the combo or a tezz...
On the assertion that this deck has bad late game draws
To be clear, I am discussing the control-whir style of deck using a disruption package such as mine (see list posted previously).
Here is my view dead draws in the deck:
All decks can draw land in the late game.
Mana rocks should be treated as lands for this purpose.
Removal can be useful throughout the game depending on the deck you are facing. Example a late game inquisition of kozilek can grab a sandbagged counterspell to clear the way for a tezzeret. Removal like push is almost always useful in the late game. Both aren't necessarily what you "want" to draw - but are far from "dead" draws.
Additional copies of thopter-sword you do not need are bad draws. Not necessarily dead either, but bad. If you look at it from the standpoint of currently only having one piece in play and drawing extra copies of that same piece - then you can have a max of 2 dead draws in most lists (2/3 thopter foundrys).
filter cards, draw spells, whirs - never dead
Additional tezzerets - if you have on in play already, extras are "dead" but this isn't a bad situation to be in.
The real useful part of this discussion imo is what utility artifacts you run in order to make the deck work - whir targets, cheap artifacts to help with improvise and artifact count in general. This is an inherant deckbuilding strain we have to deal with to play tezzeret decks. As was previously mentioned by Radouf - we need 20-25 artifacts in the MD minimum depending on the style of tezzeret deck you have built. Not all artifacts always do things we want - this is just a fact of the cardpool - otherwise we would just be jamming all artifacts and call it a day - aka affinity.
In the average matchup most of the cards are not "dead":
2x Spellskite - defense, disruption, lockout some decks
1x Darksteel Citadel - manabase
1x Mox Opal - manabase
4x Pentad Prism - manabase
1x Executioner's Capsule - removal
1x Pacification Array - removal, board control
1x Nihil Spellbomb - cantrips, hoses some decks
1x Pithing Needle - usually useful - sometimes useless.
2x Sword of the Meek - combo, 1 copy max is dead
3x Thopter Foundry - combo, 2 copy max is dead (but can still make a dude out of itself)
1x Ensnaring Bridge - never dead
1x Trading Post - never dead
Realistically from what I can see this lineup doesn't have much more of an issue over other "control/ attrition" decks. Being that I am going for that sort of build I plan for my answers to be realistically versatile and I accept when they do not line up 100% as part of the strategy. There is also a low threat density to deal with - also similar to other decks in this category.
Where we have a real disadvantage is the Mana-source count:
I run 22 lands + 5 rocks = 27 mana sources. This is 2-4 additional mana rocks over other decks employing a similar strategy. This is a slight disadvantage...
Let's weigh the adv/disadv:
- approx 3 extra lands
- potentially 2 dead combo pieces
- removal might not line up with the game state
+ 4x tinker effect
+ tutorable silver bullets in sideboard (and some versatile enough in the main)
+ reduce need for redundancy in effects - toolbox approach
+ powerful trump cards, difficult to disrupt
This is not so much an argument in support of/ against anyone elses in the thread - just an explanation of how I evaluate my approach to the deck - and those that are similar. I don't see any overly large disadvantage in late game draws as compared to most other decks I have played or played against...
However I do see the major advantages of Tezz + Bridge + Whir + combo in one deck. Played well this is a very difficult deck to beat...
Scrap Trawler:
This falls in the category of cute to me... to get back a foundry you need to lose a bridge or the trawler and it can't help you recur bridge really. I think for this slot trading post is far superior. Both is probably overkill but I can see synergy (sort of chirstmasland honestly).
In a proper build made to abuse it scrap trawler isn't just "cute" or "magical christmas land" but a very powerful recursive tool that negates artifact hate in the form of destruction. I know because i've been playing the card for a few weeks now.
You just need to include enough zero mana cost artifacts such as mishra's bauble and hangarback walker, with the full 4x thopter foundry and you'll get tons of value for sure, allowing you to "go off" without the combo.
I can see your point - I was referring to the more control-whir style of deck context
I think Trawler and Post are very different and I don't think you can compare them directly. Whichever one is better is probably a meta call. That said, I'd be interested to hear if you think my list posted just earlier is a "control-whir style" of deck, because I find it performs beautifully.
Totally different context. I think your deck is very cool. Not only a meta call but a deck's goals call too.
Your deck in my view is not the control-attrition shell ive been speaking about. Its more all in on the combo and bridge. Theres nothing wrong with that
Scrap Trawler:
This falls in the category of cute to me... to get back a foundry you need to lose a bridge or the trawler and it can't help you recur bridge really. I think for this slot trading post is far superior. Both is probably overkill but I can see synergy (sort of chirstmasland honestly).
In a proper build made to abuse it scrap trawler isn't just "cute" or "magical christmas land" but a very powerful recursive tool that negates artifact hate in the form of destruction. I know because i've been playing the card for a few weeks now.
You just need to include enough zero mana cost artifacts such as mishra's bauble and hangarback walker, with the full 4x thopter foundry and you'll get tons of value for sure, allowing you to "go off" without the combo.
I can see your point - I was referring to the more control-whir style of deck context
Collective Brutality:
I started using these, but have since cut them. Usually for me it is a 2cmc discard spell in my meta. T1 discard is a huge difference for this.... I like it in the side when I can quickly nuke a creature and discard a spell. I have found inquisition and thoughtseize to be better for consistent disruption, stripping answers. Currently I am trying just inquisition, but I previously had a 3/2 split with seize and like that as well. experimenting...
Scrap Trawler:
This falls in the category of cute to me... to get back a foundry you need to lose a bridge or the trawler and it can't help you recur bridge really. I think for this slot trading post is far superior. Both is probably overkill but I can see synergy (sort of chirstmasland honestly).
Whir of Invention
This card is probably the best card in the deck, even better than tezzeret in most situations. I don't see how you would want less than 3 MD. The "whir package" everyone keeps talking about itn't really that big. You can run your bullets out of the side, and MD use it for combo pieces and bridges... Doing this in response to opponent's attack step or removal spell feels pretty dirty. Whenever I cast it people are always shocked when the card just comes into play, and how easy it is to cast.
Fatal Push vs Brutality
This is a huge difference in removal potential. Push as a 4-of in my list has kept me alive long enough to stabalize in many matches. Brutality does a ton, or nothing. You cannot really rely on it in the MD unless you have the right meta to do so... Push is a card you can rely on to be good in most matchups...
perhaps one option might be to take out mana rocks and add some number of serum visions, TfK, reverse engineer? going up to 23 potentially 24 lands to help with mana constraints.
I think this is a good route to try out. After I test my current changes I think I will up the lands and go for less rocks, and more draw/manipulation. The problem with this plan, and the reason I haven't gone to it yet is the artifact count. Removing rocks and adding lands brings me to a pretty low count...
Anyone know the minimum number of artifacts for this build to work? I sort of assumed it was around 20 just based on my gut. Need to be consistent with Tezz +1, ult, improvise...
@Crabfisher - I agree with you on interaction. This deck is better in an attrition shell than in a combo one.
Ive been testing quite a bit, I played in a tournament yesterday (25 people 5 rounds) and won half of my games. I lost more games than I would have liked due to mana issues, either not drawing enough land, drawing too many colorless land (in this scenario prism is a real dud). Sunken Ruins screwed me multiple times, so I cut them to one. Piloted properly, and with a better mana base I think I could have won every match. Each match I lost was very very close 7-7 overall in games. Each match I lost was a 1-2 loss. Lost to Jund, Bant Eldrazi, and Grixis Control. All of these were winnable had I not misplayed.
I decided to standardize my mana base a little bit and I tweaked my sideboard. I found countersquall to be a little bit too greedy out of the side and wasn't able to really hold up the mana when I needed to (much of the time because I had the aforementioned mana base issues).
I misplayed a lot more than I care to detail lol... this deck is very difficult to pilot optimally. After 5 rounds of magic I actually had a headache and felt dizzy - every round I was one of the last decks to finish so it was pretty much 5 hours of straight tezzeret, whirring, discard, tight play, small margins of victory...
Metallic Rebuke, Prism Array, and Reverse Engineer are what I c=am currently "trying out"
Prism Array was only drawn once in my testing thus far against jund and it helped me with the match quite a bit.
REal quick: I think targeted discard is not a slam dunk in the main in the Whir package. I'd cut those for more on-strategy cards. Your lands are heavily geared to support Crucible, so I'd throw that in the main. Also 4/3 on the combo, and your 4th push, crane, or Tezz
I have found the opposite in my testing, especially since aggressive decks (combo included) are quite common in my area. When you are facing down faster decks the discard helps a lot while you go to set up a lock. Also good to check for any removal before you land a bridge, go to whir, cast tezz - whatever.
To go all in on whir and combo with minmal interaction is ignoring a good portion of the meta that can go over or under that strategy. I don't think the all in whir is strong enough to ignore these strategies.
A combination of collective brutality, inquisition of kozilek, and thoughtseize gives a lot of interactive power to the deck while we set up our trump cards and win conditions.
@JP:
I like the 2/2/2 split. I am not sure how helpful those serum visions are though. I think I would rather some more artifacts to increase your density. I count 19 MB artifacts - 21 would be better. Some of your sideboard choices are a little confusing - what is the 1-of metallic rebuke in there for? Could you provide a summary of your sideboard plan?
I based my list on an earlier version of this deck. I found collective brutaity to be a bit dead in a few of my matches so i moved it to my sideboard, lowered the walker count as they were clogging my hand, and added discard package.
Crucible was great out if the side against eldrazi. Trinisphere is great for stopping broken combo decks and slowing down pump decks like infect or shotgun style decks.
So I don't have a ton of experience with the deck yet - just some light playtesting and an fnm while i figured out the direction I wanted to try, but here is my current list:
@mysa21
Great story. Love when arrogance gets shut down like that.
@thread in general
Has anyone tried or considered using a new artifact pacification array?
Like a mini icy manipulator. Right now in my deck im trying one. Havent had a chance to really give it a thorough testing as a 1-of but as a card it looks good in the list.
Just picked up the deck again last week after a good hiatus from tezz. Using a heavy black build with lilianas and discard. I didnt have discard last week at fnm as i was trying a japanese list posted in this thread. I really missed the disruption so i worked 3 inquisition and 2 seize into my list.
Whir really had me excited and still does after using the deck a bit. Its so good i decided to grab some foils...
I will probably be moving back to my atarkas bte list from a while ago. Ive been too busy with my mono black deck and brewing with whir of invention recently but i always come back to goblins.
Gobots is realy fun and lethal. You should give it a try if you have the cards...
I took a break from Magic from Nemesis to Mirrodin, so I never played Fact or Fiction, but that card seems pretty damn sweet! I don't think it would be too good either - just kind of like a "mini" Gifts Ungiven.
You are overlooking the combo potential of gifts ungiven imo. This card's ability to tutor up elesh norn and an unburial rites to the GY gives it a unique appeal. To me that makes this card sort of parallel to cards like fact or fiction. Comparing a niche all-star to a generic card advantage engine is not really helpful...
Although - I do feel FoF is fine for modern. Would be a good reprint. Wait - isn't there a thread dedicated to discussing reprints for modern? lol
On the first one: This deck is going to have a hard time winning if you do not drop a T2 bitterblossom and prevent them from blowing it up. In my experience waste not is not a good card in these decks for one really big reason - it does nothing once your opponent is out of cards. Bone Splinters and Prism ring will also likely be dead cards as the game goes on (for a total of 12). For a life gain card to be good in these decks it needs to pull double duty in some sort of way - like a lifelink creature that helps you win (aka vampire nighthawk, gifted aetherborn, or kalitas, traitor of ghet). For this deck I would check the modern 8-rack forum to see what they have going on. You are basically 4x the rack and 4x shrieking affliction away from being that deck. It's a very fun and competitive mono black deck in it's own right.
On the second deck: This is more of a mono black aggro deck than the other one. With only 8 zombies in the deck gravecrawler is likely going to do less grave-crawling than we would all like. Relentless dead and the other "return X to battlefield for mana" creatures are going to be kind of slow - making you choose between playing spells on your turn and bringing back the dead. Only relentless dead can block of all these dudes which worries me - you will likely get overrun by the many efficient aggro decks in the format. Consider mutavault as an additional zombie card that can help you bring guys back.
Collective brutality is sort of weak in the meta right now. I have been in a few situations since I have picked up my black deck again where I had it in hand and it was basically a 2 mana drain 2 effect. I moved it to the sideboard. I see it's value mostly in decks that want things in the yard = free discards with effects. In your aggro deck it fit's a lot more than the one above, but it's still a very mana intensive process to reap any rewards from that synergy.
-----------------
Update on my list:
I took it to fnm last week and went 3-1.
I played a followup game against merfolk and wrecked it two games in a row. I had pretty awkward draws in the official match and in G2 he cast 4 spreading seas effects on my swamps and urborg.
In the match against griselbrand I used a sadistic sacrament (in place of lost legacy - just came in yesterday) and removed all of his shoals. I am not sure this was the right call. Anyone know the best card to call with a resolved lost legacy against grishoalbrand? Game 1 of this match was very easy, and game two was close. Ended up winning because of dark confidant and abyssal persecutor.
Grim Discovery has been great. It was useful every time I drew it. Still unsure of the best card in the flex spots though...
Search "wednesday night mtgcardmarket modern 1/25/2017" on youtube to see the deck in action. Its cringe-worthy. I see mox opal as a liability in my collection now.
Back to normal gruul 8-whack. Not the end of the world for me, but i was really enjoying gobots.
I think this is a good angle of attack to help minimize bad draws. I think I might try a 3/1 split. The only time I have really lost sword entirely was when it was exiled with a thought-knot seer, which sucks. Luckily I had the extra copy I could whir for at a later point (I won that game). This is a real problem in the current meta if only running one copy of sword. There's a lot of tks running around these days between colorless eldrazi tron and bant...
Overall like I said in the lengthy post - I don't think our lategame draws are much worse that nother decks that take a similar approach of control. Probably about 4 extra potential "dead draws" in the deck. I think a good pilot can minimize this a bit and maximize the efficiency of locking the game down. At which point your draws aren't all that important anyways - you can afford to sit there and filter until you find the combo or a tezz...
To be clear, I am discussing the control-whir style of deck using a disruption package such as mine (see list posted previously).
Here is my view dead draws in the deck:
The real useful part of this discussion imo is what utility artifacts you run in order to make the deck work - whir targets, cheap artifacts to help with improvise and artifact count in general. This is an inherant deckbuilding strain we have to deal with to play tezzeret decks. As was previously mentioned by Radouf - we need 20-25 artifacts in the MD minimum depending on the style of tezzeret deck you have built. Not all artifacts always do things we want - this is just a fact of the cardpool - otherwise we would just be jamming all artifacts and call it a day - aka affinity.
So I run the following artifacts in my main deck:
2x Spellskite
1x Darksteel Citadel
1x Welding Jar
1x Mox Opal
4x Pentad Prism
1x Executioner's Capsule
1x Pacification Array
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Pithing Needle
2x Sword of the Meek
3x Thopter Foundry
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Trading Post
In the average matchup most of the cards are not "dead":
2x Spellskite - defense, disruption, lockout some decks
1x Darksteel Citadel - manabase
1x Mox Opal - manabase
4x Pentad Prism - manabase
1x Executioner's Capsule - removal
1x Pacification Array - removal, board control
1x Nihil Spellbomb - cantrips, hoses some decks
1x Pithing Needle - usually useful - sometimes useless.
2x Sword of the Meek - combo, 1 copy max is dead
3x Thopter Foundry - combo, 2 copy max is dead (but can still make a dude out of itself)
1x Ensnaring Bridge - never dead
1x Trading Post - never dead
Realistically from what I can see this lineup doesn't have much more of an issue over other "control/ attrition" decks. Being that I am going for that sort of build I plan for my answers to be realistically versatile and I accept when they do not line up 100% as part of the strategy. There is also a low threat density to deal with - also similar to other decks in this category.
Where we have a real disadvantage is the Mana-source count:
I run 22 lands + 5 rocks = 27 mana sources. This is 2-4 additional mana rocks over other decks employing a similar strategy. This is a slight disadvantage...
Let's weigh the adv/disadv:
- approx 3 extra lands
- potentially 2 dead combo pieces
- removal might not line up with the game state
+ 4x tinker effect
+ tutorable silver bullets in sideboard (and some versatile enough in the main)
+ reduce need for redundancy in effects - toolbox approach
+ powerful trump cards, difficult to disrupt
This is not so much an argument in support of/ against anyone elses in the thread - just an explanation of how I evaluate my approach to the deck - and those that are similar. I don't see any overly large disadvantage in late game draws as compared to most other decks I have played or played against...
However I do see the major advantages of Tezz + Bridge + Whir + combo in one deck. Played well this is a very difficult deck to beat...
Totally different context. I think your deck is very cool. Not only a meta call but a deck's goals call too.
Your deck in my view is not the control-attrition shell ive been speaking about. Its more all in on the combo and bridge. Theres nothing wrong with that
I can see your point - I was referring to the more control-whir style of deck context
I started using these, but have since cut them. Usually for me it is a 2cmc discard spell in my meta. T1 discard is a huge difference for this.... I like it in the side when I can quickly nuke a creature and discard a spell. I have found inquisition and thoughtseize to be better for consistent disruption, stripping answers. Currently I am trying just inquisition, but I previously had a 3/2 split with seize and like that as well. experimenting...
Scrap Trawler:
This falls in the category of cute to me... to get back a foundry you need to lose a bridge or the trawler and it can't help you recur bridge really. I think for this slot trading post is far superior. Both is probably overkill but I can see synergy (sort of chirstmasland honestly).
Whir of Invention
This card is probably the best card in the deck, even better than tezzeret in most situations. I don't see how you would want less than 3 MD. The "whir package" everyone keeps talking about itn't really that big. You can run your bullets out of the side, and MD use it for combo pieces and bridges... Doing this in response to opponent's attack step or removal spell feels pretty dirty. Whenever I cast it people are always shocked when the card just comes into play, and how easy it is to cast.
Fatal Push vs Brutality
This is a huge difference in removal potential. Push as a 4-of in my list has kept me alive long enough to stabalize in many matches. Brutality does a ton, or nothing. You cannot really rely on it in the MD unless you have the right meta to do so... Push is a card you can rely on to be good in most matchups...
I think this is a good route to try out. After I test my current changes I think I will up the lands and go for less rocks, and more draw/manipulation. The problem with this plan, and the reason I haven't gone to it yet is the artifact count. Removing rocks and adding lands brings me to a pretty low count...
Anyone know the minimum number of artifacts for this build to work? I sort of assumed it was around 20 just based on my gut. Need to be consistent with Tezz +1, ult, improvise...
Ive been testing quite a bit, I played in a tournament yesterday (25 people 5 rounds) and won half of my games. I lost more games than I would have liked due to mana issues, either not drawing enough land, drawing too many colorless land (in this scenario prism is a real dud). Sunken Ruins screwed me multiple times, so I cut them to one. Piloted properly, and with a better mana base I think I could have won every match. Each match I lost was very very close 7-7 overall in games. Each match I lost was a 1-2 loss. Lost to Jund, Bant Eldrazi, and Grixis Control. All of these were winnable had I not misplayed.
I decided to standardize my mana base a little bit and I tweaked my sideboard. I found countersquall to be a little bit too greedy out of the side and wasn't able to really hold up the mana when I needed to (much of the time because I had the aforementioned mana base issues).
I misplayed a lot more than I care to detail lol... this deck is very difficult to pilot optimally. After 5 rounds of magic I actually had a headache and felt dizzy - every round I was one of the last decks to finish so it was pretty much 5 hours of straight tezzeret, whirring, discard, tight play, small margins of victory...
Here is my list as it stands currently:
4x Fatal Push
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Liliana of the Veil
Ramp (5):
1x Mox Opal
4x Pentad Prism
Tezzerator (12):
1x Welding Jar
1x Executioner's Capsule
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Pacification Array
1x Pithing Needle
2x Sword of the Meek
3x Thopter Foundry
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Trading Post
4x Whir of Invention
3x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
2x Reverse Engineer
Land (22):
1x Breeding Pool
2x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Darkslick Shores
1x Darksteel Citadel
2x Flooded Strand
2x Ghost Quarter
2x Island
4x Polluted Delta
1x Sunken Ruins
1x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Welding Jar
1x Grafdigger's Cage
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Collective Brutality
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Ensnaring Bridge
2x Metallic Rebuke
1x Damnation
1x Witchbane Orb
1x Ghost Quarter
Artifact Count = 20
Metallic Rebuke, Prism Array, and Reverse Engineer are what I c=am currently "trying out"
Prism Array was only drawn once in my testing thus far against jund and it helped me with the match quite a bit.
I have found the opposite in my testing, especially since aggressive decks (combo included) are quite common in my area. When you are facing down faster decks the discard helps a lot while you go to set up a lock. Also good to check for any removal before you land a bridge, go to whir, cast tezz - whatever.
To go all in on whir and combo with minmal interaction is ignoring a good portion of the meta that can go over or under that strategy. I don't think the all in whir is strong enough to ignore these strategies.
A combination of collective brutality, inquisition of kozilek, and thoughtseize gives a lot of interactive power to the deck while we set up our trump cards and win conditions.
@JP:
I like the 2/2/2 split. I am not sure how helpful those serum visions are though. I think I would rather some more artifacts to increase your density. I count 19 MB artifacts - 21 would be better. Some of your sideboard choices are a little confusing - what is the 1-of metallic rebuke in there for? Could you provide a summary of your sideboard plan?
I based my list on an earlier version of this deck. I found collective brutaity to be a bit dead in a few of my matches so i moved it to my sideboard, lowered the walker count as they were clogging my hand, and added discard package.
Crucible was great out if the side against eldrazi. Trinisphere is great for stopping broken combo decks and slowing down pump decks like infect or shotgun style decks.
4x Fatal Push
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
2x Liliana of the Veil
Tezzerator (27):
1x Mox Opal
1x Welding Jar
1x Executioner's Capsule
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Pacification Array
1x Pithing Needle
4x Pentad Prism
1x Ratchet Bomb
2x Sword of the Meek
2x Thopter Foundry
2x Spellskite
2x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Whir of Invention
3x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1x Trading Post
3x Darkslick Shores
2x Sunken Ruins
3x Ghost Quarter
1x Darksteel Citadel
2x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
1x Breeding Pool
2x Watery Grave
2x Island
2x Swamp
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Welding Jar
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Pithing Needle
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Collective Brutality
2x Countersquall
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Trinisphere
1x Damnation
1x Witchbane Orb
Curve Breakdown:
0 - 2
1 - 13
2 - 11
3 - 8
4 - 4
19 Black mana symbols
17 Blue mana symbols
21 Artifacts
Great story. Love when arrogance gets shut down like that.
@thread in general
Has anyone tried or considered using a new artifact pacification array?
Like a mini icy manipulator. Right now in my deck im trying one. Havent had a chance to really give it a thorough testing as a 1-of but as a card it looks good in the list.
Just picked up the deck again last week after a good hiatus from tezz. Using a heavy black build with lilianas and discard. I didnt have discard last week at fnm as i was trying a japanese list posted in this thread. I really missed the disruption so i worked 3 inquisition and 2 seize into my list.
Whir really had me excited and still does after using the deck a bit. Its so good i decided to grab some foils...
Gobots is realy fun and lethal. You should give it a try if you have the cards...
You are overlooking the combo potential of gifts ungiven imo. This card's ability to tutor up elesh norn and an unburial rites to the GY gives it a unique appeal. To me that makes this card sort of parallel to cards like fact or fiction. Comparing a niche all-star to a generic card advantage engine is not really helpful...
Although - I do feel FoF is fine for modern. Would be a good reprint. Wait - isn't there a thread dedicated to discussing reprints for modern? lol
Interesting Decks!
On the first one: This deck is going to have a hard time winning if you do not drop a T2 bitterblossom and prevent them from blowing it up. In my experience waste not is not a good card in these decks for one really big reason - it does nothing once your opponent is out of cards. Bone Splinters and Prism ring will also likely be dead cards as the game goes on (for a total of 12). For a life gain card to be good in these decks it needs to pull double duty in some sort of way - like a lifelink creature that helps you win (aka vampire nighthawk, gifted aetherborn, or kalitas, traitor of ghet). For this deck I would check the modern 8-rack forum to see what they have going on. You are basically 4x the rack and 4x shrieking affliction away from being that deck. It's a very fun and competitive mono black deck in it's own right.
On the second deck: This is more of a mono black aggro deck than the other one. With only 8 zombies in the deck gravecrawler is likely going to do less grave-crawling than we would all like. Relentless dead and the other "return X to battlefield for mana" creatures are going to be kind of slow - making you choose between playing spells on your turn and bringing back the dead. Only relentless dead can block of all these dudes which worries me - you will likely get overrun by the many efficient aggro decks in the format. Consider mutavault as an additional zombie card that can help you bring guys back.
Collective brutality is sort of weak in the meta right now. I have been in a few situations since I have picked up my black deck again where I had it in hand and it was basically a 2 mana drain 2 effect. I moved it to the sideboard. I see it's value mostly in decks that want things in the yard = free discards with effects. In your aggro deck it fit's a lot more than the one above, but it's still a very mana intensive process to reap any rewards from that synergy.
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Update on my list:
I took it to fnm last week and went 3-1.
Round 1 mono green aggro. easy 2-0
Round 2 grixis control. easy 2-0
Round 3 Grishoalbrand. easy 2-0
Round 4 Merfolk. Loss 0-2
I played a followup game against merfolk and wrecked it two games in a row. I had pretty awkward draws in the official match and in G2 he cast 4 spreading seas effects on my swamps and urborg.
In the match against griselbrand I used a sadistic sacrament (in place of lost legacy - just came in yesterday) and removed all of his shoals. I am not sure this was the right call. Anyone know the best card to call with a resolved lost legacy against grishoalbrand? Game 1 of this match was very easy, and game two was close. Ended up winning because of dark confidant and abyssal persecutor.
Grim Discovery has been great. It was useful every time I drew it. Still unsure of the best card in the flex spots though...
Back to normal gruul 8-whack. Not the end of the world for me, but i was really enjoying gobots.