Guys this new version of cheerios is making waves and drawing a big spotlight to two cards: retract and mox opal. I think I need to sell my opals... This makes me really sad because it is a key component of my gobots deck and many of my tezzeret and other artifact brews. Without opal I don't think gobots is even a deck.
So I have found what I think to be the biggest current weaknesses of the deck: Other decks running efficient token creation cards (aka Lingering Souls) or creatures that invalidate our sacrifice abilities (aka kitchen finks and friends). So I am running along with a couple copies of Illness in the ranks in the sideboard. I think abzan decks with souls are going to be the better of the G/B/x decks in the fatal push meta.
A look through all legal black cards in modern I came across a few things to try:
Imp's Mischief
I think this card can be used creatively to fill gaps of the deck, and to 2-for-1 opponents. For instance, try casting this in response to a thoughtseize, redirect a lightning storm to win the game, redirect that path to exile from your abyssal persecutor. The more I think about this card the more uses for it I can find.
Lost Legacy
Cards like this have shown up a lot over the years in decks running black. The best is probably slaughter games (seen in jund sideboards occasionally). Too often these cards are too slow - cast on T4 - to stop the combo you are trying to survive. This card can be cast on T3, has a slight downside (replaces cards taken from hand), but can be just what the doctor ordered in some matchups. With control and combo decks on the rise I think this card's niche appeal is worthy of a shot in my SB as a 1-of.
Grim Discovery
Basically a 2-mana draw-2 spell in this deck (since I run fetches, ghost quarters, and smallpox), this card provides redundancy for your best creatures and lands (or acts as a pseudo ramp spell). This as a 1-of seems pretty good. Especially in grindy matchups. Can't wait to give it a spin.
I also noticed a difference. Even with cards of the same set.
Bought a set of fatal push today and one has an almost casino playing card texture and the other three do not
A lot of blue-core proxies have this texture. If the card is really shiny too, you may have been sent a fake.
Although selling a proxy of a $5 card doesn't really seem likely, it could still happen.
The top poster is saying that he is opening booster packs with cards that seem to be differently printed. Are there full booster packs that are being printed now as blue core proxies? I don't think standard proxies are being made. I don't think they are making fake booster packs either. I could be wrong. Wizards could have used a cheaper printing company. They don't tell us anything anymore.
Top poster said that, but this guy mentioned noticing the difference when buying singles, not opening packs.
If I have time I will post a picture of two different copies of fatal push.
I examined the cards and I am 99.9% sure none are fakes - that doesn't make sense on an uncommon purchased days before release...
I have also noticed that more often than I used to see it - there are cards with varying thickness of font (almost looks like it was over-printed or something) in cards I have pulled from packs. This sort of misprint indicates to me an overall drop in card quality. I also opened up a commander 2016 deck that had all sorts of strange color errors where half of the card is missing the final layer of black ink. Probably a clogged head, but where is the quality control? Not complaining on these - without the black ink the cards look very interesting and unique...
Bloodghast was really good in the deck. Great synergy with smallpox and liliana otv.
The only time it was not great was when i drew three in a row when i really needed something else against affinity in the one game i lost. For that reason i switched the 4th copy for my 4th inquisition of kozilek instead.
Vampiric rites was good when i drew it and won me a game against jund in combination with a bloodghast. I liked the card iverall but i still want to try more things in this slot. Currently switched it to try a one of copy of profane command.
Went 3-1 yesterday at fnm. The deck ran really well overall. All the new cards were as good as id hoped they would be.
Round 1 junk 0-2 loss
Lingering souls beats this deck...
Round 2 ensoul artifact deck 2-0
This was an easy win. Smallpox wrecks this deck.
Round 3 jund 2-1
Most grindy match ive had in a while. Very thought intensive. End of the day this deck is better at long grinds - made a big misplay but still squeaked it out
Round 4 affinity 2-1
Yahenni's expertise out if the side and bob won me games 2&3. Every game was challenging but i felt i had the upper hand post board by a good margain
MVPs of the night:
Liliana otv
Bitterblossom
Fatal push
Abyssal persecutor
Dark Dwellers can cast both halves of a fuse card, but it's still 5 whole mana and if you are running eldrazi in your list the chance of you binning them with something like a faithless looting means he's better left in the binder.
The ruling on "fuse" is that it must be cast from hand so GDD can't cast both halves from the GY.
It can cast the bigger half from the GY though right?
@jwelt ..yes, that's the case. The reward is much less to win with a tier1 deck
a lot of times I won via pack rat. But it's so all in that I dont know if it's worth.
With my deadguy deck I ended up place 9/70. One year ago or so. I often wished for a better beater.
Maybe it's the best way to grind harder than Jund/Junk
bitterblossom and pox is a really that way. What about a one of asylum visitor?
What you think about pack rat right now?
I totally agree lol. I made Jund for like... a week. zero fun.
It is funny you mention pack rat - I added one back in my main deck. This is an amazing card. In my experience this deck works best when you have a lot of disruption that has good tempo and you followup with very difficult to deal with threats/engines. This is why I love Bob, BB, Lily, and cards like pack rat. Then eventually you go to land a Percy and close out the game. The deck can be extremely oppressive.
I usually only add pack rat as a 1-2 of in my gate builds. Currently only one copy.
I did a couple of hours of testing yesterday with my smallpox gate list I posted above and I had very good results. I am definitely going to put the Yahenni's expertise in the board though. With the poxes, gatekeepers, lilys, and pushes I hardly needed the sweeper most of the time.
22 or 23 lands? Always a difficult question to answer. I think I need 23. Anyone have an opinion on this land count outside of anecdotal evidence? Like any sort of analysis?
I tested some matches vs my grixis control (corey burkhards list)
I had cut bitterblossom for souls, but without it smallpox seems much more worse (or difficult for me to play)
most of the time I think I have to admit that I have to buy the goyfs, haha
I bought the goyfs
Its an empty feeling when you win playing a goyf deck. No real challenge and no pride of ownership knowing you have brewed something yourself.
@jwelt. maybe it is a viable option to also play lingering souls. With so many discard effects it is easy and only a minor splash is required.
stony silence/ removals for artifacts; enchantments could be a sideboard route. Only Cause of these and path Junk exists
This is something i have been considering for a time. At a certain point it becomes a different deck. I am planning to test this idea as a B/W smallpox deck
I tested with the card a bit last night and was extremely underwhelmed. It presents you with very awkward decisions to make.
For the card to be useful it has to be played on T1-T2, taking the place of something much better
It does not have haste
You need to sacrifice it for the effect, hurting your clock and the deck's gameplan of going wide.
So you have to think - is it worth playing this card to use it's effect? Do I sac it? Most of the removal we come across is instants anyway with the exception of board wipes.
The only decisions this deck needs to be forcing on its pilots are along the lines of "how can I kill the opponent the fastest" and nothing more.
I'm dropping the card from my list altogether. Someday I might revisit it for the sideboard. It's a shame - I was excited about it (and overpayed for it)
Also, on the white splash vs Green for my gobots deck. I think I am going to move back to the green splash for atarka's command and burning-tree emissary. The deck was much more explosive and fun to play with the green splash. It is a shame, because toolcraft exemplar is a really good card and it deserves a spot. But you cannot have everything, and I think BTE and Atarkas adds more to the deck than does 4x exemplar...
Time will tell. I am going to also try a build keeping the white splash and adding the BTEs back in and see how that performs (no atarka's though).
I use geth's verdict for the life drain and the fact that it is sure to grab something on the board, victim and dismember do not.
Unless you are facing a hexproof creature (Bogles or a Geist) than VoN/Dismember will be better 90% of the time because they kill nearly everything that is played (Victim misses mainly Kalitas and G.Angler and Dismember gets everying besides P.Titan and Tron fatties) and you choose what dies when they have more than 1x creature.
I have to agree here. Targeted removal is better in the vast majority of cases.
Thinking of meta-level issues with different removal spells, I see targeted removal even more important. It is predicted that midrange decks running cards like lingering souls will see an increase in meta share due to the printing of fatal push (abzan/junk decks). Lingering Souls is this deck's worst enemy - negating all of our sacrifice effects. Adding more would be a mistake.
Personally I am a fan of diversifying removal as much as possible. Discard, targeted, sac effects. Having 4 fatal push is a good start, but I feel that 4x Geth's Verdict is a bit overkill. If you are running Abyssal Persecutor you have to also balance removal spells which can kill him with those that cannot. Geth's and Push are both serviceable options, dismember is not. Victim of Night is probably the best of both worlds.
Bitterblossom has been discussed pretty thoroughly in this thread. It provides a 1-card win condition in this deck because of the amount of disruption it is capable of. It's not always the best, so it can be sided out at worst. I have won many games with the card.
I used to use bad moons and go more all in on the card, and that was pretty good too. It depends on what you are looking to do with the deck. Some builds of the gate do not optimize it and might consider cutting it from the list...
So here is the list I will test once I get my hands on 4x Fatal Push (I refuse to pay $5 each)
I wouldn't really call it "the gate" but it shares quite a few cards with the shell. It is more of a mono black pox deck, but I figured I would post it anyway in case you guys were curious where I was going to go with mono black and the new cards:
Edit:
I forgot about Yahenni himself! This card is amazing for "The Gate" - sac outlet and synergy with bitterblossom and bloodghast. He can get big fast with the amnount of removal in the deck and take the game over. He also enables revolt on fatal push (as he should - I think that is him on the card)...
So big additions to the gate:
Fatal Push
Yahenni
Yahenni's expertise
can't wait to test these. More excited about the gate version now!
Thanks for your quick reply! I'll try this decklist next FNM for sure, looks ultra solid, less pain from colorless and obliterator and more fatal push trigger!
As for the fetches, would it be better to add one more ghost quarter for the fatal push trigger? And maybe, maybe a fourth urborg to manage the BB and BBB? We have so much life loss with The Gate and only one reliable life gain source. And oh boy I hope my opponent do not drop a Chalice of the void on 2, it counters half of the deck
The number of colorless lands and urborgs in the deck has always been a fine line for me. Ive always had the best luck with 2-3 urborgs and 3-5 colorless lands. I havent tested in a while but i think what you propose would probably work out. Possibly even trading the miren for another quarter instead and leaving the urborg count at 3.
I dont think ive ever seen a chalice on 2 unless it was from me in a prison deck! I wouldnt worry about chalice too much at all.
Yahennis expertise in the side might also be a good thing to have access to
1x Hangarback Walker (flex)
3x Bloodghast
4x Dark Confidant
2x Gatekeeper of Malakir
1x Pack Rat (flex)
2x Bitterblossom
1x Yahenni, Undying Partisan
3x Abyssal Persecutor
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
Spells (20):
4x Fatal Push
1x Funeral Charm (flex)
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Thoughtseize
1x Grim Discovery (flex)
4x Smallpox
4x Liliana of the Veil
3x Ghost Quarter
1x Miren, the Moaning Well
9x Swamp
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Shizo, Death's Storehouse
4x Polluted Delta
1x Bloodstained Mire
2x Illness in the ranks
1x Pithing Needle
1x Collective Brutality
1x Imp's Mischief (experimental)
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Torpor Orb
1x Lost Legacy (experimental)
3x Leyline of the Void
2x Yahenni's Expertise
So I have found what I think to be the biggest current weaknesses of the deck: Other decks running efficient token creation cards (aka Lingering Souls) or creatures that invalidate our sacrifice abilities (aka kitchen finks and friends). So I am running along with a couple copies of Illness in the ranks in the sideboard. I think abzan decks with souls are going to be the better of the G/B/x decks in the fatal push meta.
A look through all legal black cards in modern I came across a few things to try:
Imp's Mischief
I think this card can be used creatively to fill gaps of the deck, and to 2-for-1 opponents. For instance, try casting this in response to a thoughtseize, redirect a lightning storm to win the game, redirect that path to exile from your abyssal persecutor. The more I think about this card the more uses for it I can find.
Lost Legacy
Cards like this have shown up a lot over the years in decks running black. The best is probably slaughter games (seen in jund sideboards occasionally). Too often these cards are too slow - cast on T4 - to stop the combo you are trying to survive. This card can be cast on T3, has a slight downside (replaces cards taken from hand), but can be just what the doctor ordered in some matchups. With control and combo decks on the rise I think this card's niche appeal is worthy of a shot in my SB as a 1-of.
Grim Discovery
Basically a 2-mana draw-2 spell in this deck (since I run fetches, ghost quarters, and smallpox), this card provides redundancy for your best creatures and lands (or acts as a pseudo ramp spell). This as a 1-of seems pretty good. Especially in grindy matchups. Can't wait to give it a spin.
If I have time I will post a picture of two different copies of fatal push.
I examined the cards and I am 99.9% sure none are fakes - that doesn't make sense on an uncommon purchased days before release...
I have also noticed that more often than I used to see it - there are cards with varying thickness of font (almost looks like it was over-printed or something) in cards I have pulled from packs. This sort of misprint indicates to me an overall drop in card quality. I also opened up a commander 2016 deck that had all sorts of strange color errors where half of the card is missing the final layer of black ink. Probably a clogged head, but where is the quality control? Not complaining on these - without the black ink the cards look very interesting and unique...
The only time it was not great was when i drew three in a row when i really needed something else against affinity in the one game i lost. For that reason i switched the 4th copy for my 4th inquisition of kozilek instead.
Vampiric rites was good when i drew it and won me a game against jund in combination with a bloodghast. I liked the card iverall but i still want to try more things in this slot. Currently switched it to try a one of copy of profane command.
Hows your deck doing?
Round 1 junk 0-2 loss
Lingering souls beats this deck...
Round 2 ensoul artifact deck 2-0
This was an easy win. Smallpox wrecks this deck.
Round 3 jund 2-1
Most grindy match ive had in a while. Very thought intensive. End of the day this deck is better at long grinds - made a big misplay but still squeaked it out
Round 4 affinity 2-1
Yahenni's expertise out if the side and bob won me games 2&3. Every game was challenging but i felt i had the upper hand post board by a good margain
MVPs of the night:
Liliana otv
Bitterblossom
Fatal push
Abyssal persecutor
It can cast the bigger half from the GY though right?
Bought a set of fatal push today and one has an almost casino playing card texture and the other three do not
I totally agree lol. I made Jund for like... a week. zero fun.
It is funny you mention pack rat - I added one back in my main deck. This is an amazing card. In my experience this deck works best when you have a lot of disruption that has good tempo and you followup with very difficult to deal with threats/engines. This is why I love Bob, BB, Lily, and cards like pack rat. Then eventually you go to land a Percy and close out the game. The deck can be extremely oppressive.
I usually only add pack rat as a 1-2 of in my gate builds. Currently only one copy.
I did a couple of hours of testing yesterday with my smallpox gate list I posted above and I had very good results. I am definitely going to put the Yahenni's expertise in the board though. With the poxes, gatekeepers, lilys, and pushes I hardly needed the sweeper most of the time.
22 or 23 lands? Always a difficult question to answer. I think I need 23. Anyone have an opinion on this land count outside of anecdotal evidence? Like any sort of analysis?
I bought the goyfs
Its an empty feeling when you win playing a goyf deck. No real challenge and no pride of ownership knowing you have brewed something yourself.
This is something i have been considering for a time. At a certain point it becomes a different deck. I am planning to test this idea as a B/W smallpox deck
I tested with the card a bit last night and was extremely underwhelmed. It presents you with very awkward decisions to make.
- For the card to be useful it has to be played on T1-T2, taking the place of something much better
- It does not have haste
- You need to sacrifice it for the effect, hurting your clock and the deck's gameplan of going wide.
So you have to think - is it worth playing this card to use it's effect? Do I sac it? Most of the removal we come across is instants anyway with the exception of board wipes.The only decisions this deck needs to be forcing on its pilots are along the lines of "how can I kill the opponent the fastest" and nothing more.
I'm dropping the card from my list altogether. Someday I might revisit it for the sideboard. It's a shame - I was excited about it (and overpayed for it)
Also, on the white splash vs Green for my gobots deck. I think I am going to move back to the green splash for atarka's command and burning-tree emissary. The deck was much more explosive and fun to play with the green splash. It is a shame, because toolcraft exemplar is a really good card and it deserves a spot. But you cannot have everything, and I think BTE and Atarkas adds more to the deck than does 4x exemplar...
Time will tell. I am going to also try a build keeping the white splash and adding the BTEs back in and see how that performs (no atarka's though).
I have to agree here. Targeted removal is better in the vast majority of cases.
Thinking of meta-level issues with different removal spells, I see targeted removal even more important. It is predicted that midrange decks running cards like lingering souls will see an increase in meta share due to the printing of fatal push (abzan/junk decks). Lingering Souls is this deck's worst enemy - negating all of our sacrifice effects. Adding more would be a mistake.
Personally I am a fan of diversifying removal as much as possible. Discard, targeted, sac effects. Having 4 fatal push is a good start, but I feel that 4x Geth's Verdict is a bit overkill. If you are running Abyssal Persecutor you have to also balance removal spells which can kill him with those that cannot. Geth's and Push are both serviceable options, dismember is not. Victim of Night is probably the best of both worlds.
I used to use bad moons and go more all in on the card, and that was pretty good too. It depends on what you are looking to do with the deck. Some builds of the gate do not optimize it and might consider cutting it from the list...
I wouldn't really call it "the gate" but it shares quite a few cards with the shell. It is more of a mono black pox deck, but I figured I would post it anyway in case you guys were curious where I was going to go with mono black and the new cards:
3x Bloodghast
3x Dark Confidant
1x Bitterblossom
1x Tombstalker
Spells (29):
4x Fatal Push
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Raven's Crime
4x The Rack
4x Thoughtseize
2x Collective Brutality
4x Smallpox
4x Liliana of the Veil
2x Yahenni's Expertise
2x Ghost Quarter
3x Mutavault
11x Swamp
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Polluted Delta
3x Bloodchief Ascension
2x Pithing Needle
4x Leyline of the Void
6x unsure
This is more in the spirit of "The Gate" which I will also be trying:
4x Bloodghast
4x Dark Confidant
2x Gatekeeper of Malakir
2x Bitterblossom
2x Yahenni, Undying Partisan
3x Abyssal Persecutor
Spells (20):
4x Fatal Push
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
1x Collective Brutality
4x Smallpox
4x Liliana of the Veil
2x Yahenni's Expertise
3x Ghost Quarter
1x Miren, the Moaning Well
12x Swamp
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Polluted Delta
3x Bloodchief Ascension
2x Pithing Needle
4x Leyline of the Void
6x unsure
Edit:
I forgot about Yahenni himself! This card is amazing for "The Gate" - sac outlet and synergy with bitterblossom and bloodghast. He can get big fast with the amnount of removal in the deck and take the game over. He also enables revolt on fatal push (as he should - I think that is him on the card)...
So big additions to the gate:
Fatal Push
Yahenni
Yahenni's expertise
can't wait to test these. More excited about the gate version now!
The number of colorless lands and urborgs in the deck has always been a fine line for me. Ive always had the best luck with 2-3 urborgs and 3-5 colorless lands. I havent tested in a while but i think what you propose would probably work out. Possibly even trading the miren for another quarter instead and leaving the urborg count at 3.
I dont think ive ever seen a chalice on 2 unless it was from me in a prison deck! I wouldnt worry about chalice too much at all.
Yahennis expertise in the side might also be a good thing to have access to