I think the main switches here being Tragic Slip for Fatal Push (funny how similar the names are) and Obliterator for Persecutor will help the deck a lot.
I like the sporit of the list. Very attractive lineup of cards. I think it needs some tweaking though.
Have you tested with fatal push yet? I am worried you dont have enough ways to kill your persecutors. Push is eligible but i feel a couple more black fetches might help. Actually maybe just -1 miren +1 ghost quarter. 3 treetop might be too many.
I am skeptical of bow of nylea - how is it in practice? I think i would swap it for another discard spell.
Also. Maybe -1 finks and +1 collective brutality. Cery versatile. Brutality is good for your flayers and goyfs with BItterblossom.
Is this deck at all interested in Thraben Inspector as a body + artifact? Or Selfless Spirit out of the side? I've been having fun with the RW list above but it seems like sweepers (and Timely Reinforcements) can be a real problem.
Sweepers are the deck's weakness for sure
I could see places where i would want a combination of the following out of the side to help with that weakness:
Hope of ghirapur
Burrenton forge-tender
Selfless spirit
So far ive been able to successfully play around wipes without too much issue. In the meta as its been with mostly aggro most people havent been running it i think since their boards would suffer as well. Im sure that might change though. Not too sure...
If the predictions are correct and midrange, eldrazi, and tron take the lead in the standings then i think the biggest problems will be
Bant Eldrazi in general is a bad matchup
GR tron if its running pyroclasm ot T3 o-stone
Jund shouldnt be too much of an issue
I put together the deck in paper yesterday and did about an hour of goldfishing. I found Kytheon, hero of akros to be an awkward card in the deck, but toolcraft exemplar was very strong. I also threw some Hope of Ghirapur into the deck to try. Overall the deck is possibly faster and more consistent with these two cards (for artifact-matters cards like opal and rebirth).
Hope of Ghirapur might be best in the side... not sure. It really depends on what deck you are against, and what the meta is like (who knows what will change post ban and AER).
I find myself really missing BTE in the deck also. SO many good options right now.
Still convinced that Kuldotha Rebirth is a "goblin deck"?
Funny enough, I've been toying with white in a proper goblin archetype, seems to have some potential.
Any non-Kuldotha aggro players still here or have they all been squeezed out..?
Dude... whats your problem? Why dont you drop the crap... i actually have something productive to share with you.
I played gruul goblins a while back to some good success with a small white splash for sb cards. I played it until eldrazi winter shut me down pretty hard on modern. I havent played it since but i will say the white sb cards were great - especially forge tender to help prevent losses from red board wipes. Ill see if i can dig up the list tomorrow... it is somewhere in this thread.
I updated the list in the post above. It now has 60 cards. I never intended the lightning bolts to be in there or the 4th mox opal and 4th rebirth.
Kytheon has worked pretty well in the past when I was trying out the Chancellor/ Fury of the Horde deck that someone made in this thread. If triggerd he is a beast. I'd like him to be in the deck, but I am not sure how good he will be over other options since the deck is so stinkin tight with all the new good options printed in the last two sets...
I see the creatures in the deck as follows:
Memnite - perfect card for the build, easy 4-of. does what ornithopter does and attacks - so never dead. Ornithopter - mostly a metalcraft enabler, sac outlet for rebirth. enables broken starts, sometimes does nothing. Bomat courier - card advantage, hastey, metalcraft Goblin Guide - in here because of it's damage rate and efficiency alone Legion Loyalist - evasion and trample for my creatures. all modes relevant. Signal pest - small whacker Goblin Bushwhacker - medium whacker Reckless Bushwhacker - big whacker
New stuff: Hope of Ghirapur - aggro-control hybrid, protection for board wipes, okay sac outlet for rebirth. toolcraft exemplar - similar to goblin guide but without the drawback, and without haste. Potentially more dangerous. kytheon, hero of akros - weakest creature in the deck (no added synergy with other cards), but potentially the biggest upside (4/4 for W) rewarding what the deck does best - swarming.
Im mostly excited about toolcraft exemplar and white sideboard cards. Losing BTE and Atarka's command? Not sure it is worth it...
I edited my test list above - I copied the original list to save time and forgot to edit the spells portion of the list. As it was there were 4 extra lightning bolts and an extra rebirth.
On Kytheon, hero of Akros:
@ Itetone - I do not care even a little about poor late game draws in this deck at all (ornithopter lol). This is an all-in T3-4 deck. Almost every card in the deck is a poor late game draw.
The reason I put 2 copies in my test list is because I want to draw him sometimes, but not a necessity. I would much rather not see him at all than see 2 copies in my opening hand. This would hurt my swarm plan quite a bit. I might try three copies - but there simply is not room in the deck. If I need to cut creatures he would be among the first to go.
Thanks, this has always been a pet deck of mine - and I think with the new cards, the archetype can possibly see a big boost.
On Vampire Nighthawk and Gifted Aetherborn:
Personally I am not a huge fan of either of these creatures in today's meta. With the printing of Fatal Push I think these cards get slightly worse - that is they trade poorly with a 1-mana removal spell (and now there's a bunch to pick from, and people are going to be jamming lightning bolt, path to exile, and their new brother fatal push).
Personally I see the deck using a combination of the following to help with triggering revolt.
Smallpox
Ghost Quarter
A couple fetches (any black fetch will do)
Really the card is just fine as a kill spell for 2cmc or less. The extra range is a bonus - and not too difficult to turn on. The deck has so many sac effects that can easily clean up what a non-revolting push leaves behind. With sac-able lands in the deck and urborg, as well as smallpox and a few other outlets - push can almost reliably kill percy as well which is a huge bonus.
Depending on which sort of goblin deck you run the printing of fatal push could be good or bad
Good:
- more 1-for-1 removal is good for weenie goblins because that is exactly the kind of removal plan we can easily outpace. Also it helps more decks running (not red) be successful - decks that dont run anger of the gods or pyroclasm.
Bad:
- if you run a slower version of goblins with things like piledriver or 3cmc lords fatal push is bad. These trade very poorly with cards like push. Printing more efficient removal hurts these decks in multiple ways.
I agree that you are spot on how we both see BTE. But, we both seem to meet at the same end point - winning. lol Though, I would like to suggest testing out a Arbor Dryad. I am limited where I am at, so I can't do too much testing but I think she might have some promise as a 'one of.'
That is a nifty idea! I will definitely have to check that out. Not tapping for R might prevent me from being able to love it though.
You are right - I have seen better success with this version than others I have played in the last year. I think the base of kuldotha rebirth, free artifacts, and whackers is very powerful. How you go about optimizing that is splitting hairs to an extent and relies of playstyle choices.
Artifact Count: 22 cards
Red Mana symbols: 19
green mana symbols: 2
Hybrid mana symbols: 8
Average mana cost = 1.02
So these are the things I considered when tweaking my list:
Have to maintain zero-drop artifact count to increase T1 kuldotha rebirth and T1 mox opal metalcraft opportunities. For this reason i didn't cut any ornithopters - as much as I wanted to.
Maintain speed, add resilience - fit in three copies of Hope of Ghirapur - because it is legendary. I realize this doesn't apply if you sac it, but I don't want to slow the deck down.
keep the curve extremely low. I switched out 3 2-drops for three 1-drops.
retain BTE - Still one of the best roleplayers in the deck IMO
I may drop the last two atarka's commands for more bushwhacker effects. I cannot say until I spend a night testing the new card.
Spec Ops - you said "I removed BTE because she inherently adds jank i.e. sit in the hand if you don't have Reckless Bushwhacker or three mana and a Goblin Bushwhacker."
We have very different expectations for this card, and that might be why I seem to have better experiences with it than you do. I do not look at BTE as a combo card - I look at it as a free creature that has insanely good combo potential. I almost never hold BTE in my hand unless I have the combo and am lacking the second mana source (no choice) or the game state requires an alpha strike of some sort. Producing 1R and 1G mana I very rarely don't have something to do with both on T2-3. I usually just use the BTE as a 2/2 body that cantrips mana and allows me to vomit more weenies onto the field. Adding Hope of Ghirapur - I now have even more to do with that green mana. In the past, I sometimes cast atarka's commands off of it even without haste, just to use the mana - even though this wasn't the most optimal usage of the command spell, it was the most efficient usage of my mana - which I feel turns into the highest win percentage for the deck. This is the main reason I like BTE - it massively allows me to ouptpace my opponent's 1-for-1 removal and board development - which is ultimately leveraging all the strengths of this deck.
Post SB, BTE also allows me to develop my aggro plan, and drop hate cards without losing too much steam. All of my SB cards can be played off of a BTE trigger. In fact, the only cards that do not play well with BTE's trigger are my three copies of goblin bushwhacker. This is why in my past list I cut him down, while maintaining 4-of reckless bushwhacker. Currently I have a 3-3 split to start going into testing.
Anyway, I just wanted to share my thoughts...
I feel bad for posting so often lol. I guess people wanting updates on other versions of goblin decks can just skip my postings until we return to a goblin-inclusive block.
Ha! You beat me to it Jwelt. That card can save us from typical control sweepers to combo blowouts. The only problem, in a good way, is that Gobots is running out of slots to give. lol Shoot, even Robots can run this card...I'm going to have to bring my Robots out of retirement to experiment with all the good artifacts of late.
And, for those running a Gruul blend check this out - Heroic Intervention. This might be a great SB card for us.
Infect
sorcery speed removal
combo decks that we race
other non-creature artifact decks like tezzeret
boggles
death shadow zoo combo
more
Our ability to give this guy haste is incredible - locking opponents out of sweeper answers for that key 4th turn swing, or keeping decks like infect from being able to swing back effectively.
I am also having trouble fitting it. I think I want to run it as a 3-of and will probably cut
-2 atarka's command
-1 ornithopter
I think Metallic Rebuke is for another kind of deck. The same deck that can use Whir of Improvement and maybe Thoughtcast and the new improvise Thoughtcast, but I don't see all these cards in a traditional Bridge Tezzeret deck (you don't want counters in a deck with bridge).
Maybe a new Ub Counter-Thopter deck can use some of these cards.
Looking at all the new tools, tezz players will have to re-evaluate the necessity of cards like bridge. With the new additions, it is seeming a U/B instant speed tezz control list might be a more viable option. It is hard to say now what will be best.
With this many game-changing cards, its necessary to take a step back and build from the bottom up rather than try to fit new cards into old builds.
I think you might have better luck doing the following:
+4 Bloodstained Mire (or any black fetch)
-4 swamp
+4 Fatal Push
-4 Tragic Slip
+1 Miren, the Moaning Well
-1 Arena
+4 Abyssal Persecutor
-4 Phyrexian Obliterator
-4 Vampire Nighthawk
+4 Gifted Aetherborn
I think the main switches here being Tragic Slip for Fatal Push (funny how similar the names are) and Obliterator for Persecutor will help the deck a lot.
I like the sporit of the list. Very attractive lineup of cards. I think it needs some tweaking though.
Have you tested with fatal push yet? I am worried you dont have enough ways to kill your persecutors. Push is eligible but i feel a couple more black fetches might help. Actually maybe just -1 miren +1 ghost quarter. 3 treetop might be too many.
I am skeptical of bow of nylea - how is it in practice? I think i would swap it for another discard spell.
Also. Maybe -1 finks and +1 collective brutality. Cery versatile. Brutality is good for your flayers and goyfs with BItterblossom.
Just some quick thoughts
Sweepers are the deck's weakness for sure
I could see places where i would want a combination of the following out of the side to help with that weakness:
Hope of ghirapur
Burrenton forge-tender
Selfless spirit
So far ive been able to successfully play around wipes without too much issue. In the meta as its been with mostly aggro most people havent been running it i think since their boards would suffer as well. Im sure that might change though. Not too sure...
If the predictions are correct and midrange, eldrazi, and tron take the lead in the standings then i think the biggest problems will be
Bant Eldrazi in general is a bad matchup
GR tron if its running pyroclasm ot T3 o-stone
Jund shouldnt be too much of an issue
Hope of Ghirapur might be best in the side... not sure. It really depends on what deck you are against, and what the meta is like (who knows what will change post ban and AER).
I find myself really missing BTE in the deck also. SO many good options right now.
Dude... whats your problem? Why dont you drop the crap... i actually have something productive to share with you.
I played gruul goblins a while back to some good success with a small white splash for sb cards. I played it until eldrazi winter shut me down pretty hard on modern. I havent played it since but i will say the white sb cards were great - especially forge tender to help prevent losses from red board wipes. Ill see if i can dig up the list tomorrow... it is somewhere in this thread.
I updated the list in the post above. It now has 60 cards. I never intended the lightning bolts to be in there or the 4th mox opal and 4th rebirth.
Kytheon has worked pretty well in the past when I was trying out the Chancellor/ Fury of the Horde deck that someone made in this thread. If triggerd he is a beast. I'd like him to be in the deck, but I am not sure how good he will be over other options since the deck is so stinkin tight with all the new good options printed in the last two sets...
I see the creatures in the deck as follows:
Memnite - perfect card for the build, easy 4-of. does what ornithopter does and attacks - so never dead.
Ornithopter - mostly a metalcraft enabler, sac outlet for rebirth. enables broken starts, sometimes does nothing.
Bomat courier - card advantage, hastey, metalcraft
Goblin Guide - in here because of it's damage rate and efficiency alone
Legion Loyalist - evasion and trample for my creatures. all modes relevant.
Signal pest - small whacker
Goblin Bushwhacker - medium whacker
Reckless Bushwhacker - big whacker
New stuff:
Hope of Ghirapur - aggro-control hybrid, protection for board wipes, okay sac outlet for rebirth.
toolcraft exemplar - similar to goblin guide but without the drawback, and without haste. Potentially more dangerous.
kytheon, hero of akros - weakest creature in the deck (no added synergy with other cards), but potentially the biggest upside (4/4 for W) rewarding what the deck does best - swarming.
Im mostly excited about toolcraft exemplar and white sideboard cards. Losing BTE and Atarka's command? Not sure it is worth it...
Regarding Rest in Peace:
I am not sure I want this over a cheap artifact in Grafdigger's Cage that I can sac to kuldotha rebirth, helps with metalcraft, and with toolcraft exemplar.
I could see metas where I would though
On Kytheon, hero of Akros:
@ Itetone - I do not care even a little about poor late game draws in this deck at all (ornithopter lol). This is an all-in T3-4 deck. Almost every card in the deck is a poor late game draw.
The reason I put 2 copies in my test list is because I want to draw him sometimes, but not a necessity. I would much rather not see him at all than see 2 copies in my opening hand. This would hurt my swarm plan quite a bit. I might try three copies - but there simply is not room in the deck. If I need to cut creatures he would be among the first to go.
On Vampire Nighthawk and Gifted Aetherborn:
Personally I am not a huge fan of either of these creatures in today's meta. With the printing of Fatal Push I think these cards get slightly worse - that is they trade poorly with a 1-mana removal spell (and now there's a bunch to pick from, and people are going to be jamming lightning bolt, path to exile, and their new brother fatal push).
Personally I see the deck using a combination of the following to help with triggering revolt.
Smallpox
Ghost Quarter
A couple fetches (any black fetch will do)
Really the card is just fine as a kill spell for 2cmc or less. The extra range is a bonus - and not too difficult to turn on. The deck has so many sac effects that can easily clean up what a non-revolting push leaves behind. With sac-able lands in the deck and urborg, as well as smallpox and a few other outlets - push can almost reliably kill percy as well which is a huge bonus.
Possible test list to illustrate the idea:
3x Bloodghast
4x Dark Confidant
3x Bitterblossom
3x Gatekeeper of Malakir
1x Yahenni, Undying Partisan
3x Abyssal Persecutor
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Thoughtseize
4x Fatal Push
4x Smallpox
2x Grafted Wargear
3x Liliana of the Veil
2x Bojuka Bog
3x Ghost Quarter
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Miren, the Moaning Well
4x Polluted Delta
10x Swamp
This is where I might start with the deck as is not tuned...
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/543627#online
Kuldotha Rebirth won a modern league 5-0
Here is the list:
4x Memnite
3x Ornithopter
3x Bomat Courier
4x Goblin Bushwhacker
4x Goblin Guide
3x Kytheon, Hero of Akros
1x Legion Loyalist
4x Signal Pest
4x Toolcraft Exemplar
4x Reckless Bushwhacker
4x Kuldotha Rebirth
4x Lightning Bolt
Other (3):
3x Mox Opal
Lands (15):
3x Arid Mesa
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x COntested War zone
3x Inspiring Vantage
1x Mountain
3x Sacred Foundry
2x Devastating Summons
3x Grafdigger's Cage
3x Gut Shot
2x Path to Exile
1x Shattering Spree
2x Smash to Smithereens
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
No time to go in depth right now, but here are a few initial thoughts:
love the white splash
only 1 loyalist?
17 artifacts seems inconsistent for opal
I dont think this is the best possible list for our archetype (gobots), but I am definitely trying out the white splash for exemplar and kytheon.
Edit - this is what I want to try post AER release:
4x Memnite
2x Ornithopter
4x Bomat Courier
4x Goblin Bushwhacker
4x Goblin Guide
2x Kytheon, Hero of Akros
4x Legion Loyalist
3x Hope of Ghirapur
4x Signal Pest
4x Toolcraft Exemplar
4x Reckless Bushwhacker
3x Kuldotha Rebirth
3x Mox Opal
Lands (15):
3x Arid Mesa
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Inspiring Vantage
2x Mountain
2x Sacred Foundry
3x Burrenton Forge-Tender
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Forked Bolt
3x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Shattering Spree
2x Wear // Tear
1x Dolmen Gate
I think a whole bunch of mono black archetypes just got much needed support to stand on their own (without splashing).
The cards i am most excited about are
Fatal push
Yaheeni's expertise
Yaheeni
In you list i would switch tragic slip for fatal push
Ill be brewing some mono black in the near future once i get my hands on these cards
I refuse to pay $5 for uncommons in a masterpiece set... fatal push.
My first deck will be a hybrid of the following:
Pox, 8 rack, the gate
I just call it modern pox
Good:
- more 1-for-1 removal is good for weenie goblins because that is exactly the kind of removal plan we can easily outpace. Also it helps more decks running (not red) be successful - decks that dont run anger of the gods or pyroclasm.
Bad:
- if you run a slower version of goblins with things like piledriver or 3cmc lords fatal push is bad. These trade very poorly with cards like push. Printing more efficient removal hurts these decks in multiple ways.
That is a nifty idea! I will definitely have to check that out. Not tapping for R might prevent me from being able to love it though.
You are right - I have seen better success with this version than others I have played in the last year. I think the base of kuldotha rebirth, free artifacts, and whackers is very powerful. How you go about optimizing that is splitting hairs to an extent and relies of playstyle choices.
Gruul Gobots
4x Memnite
4x Ornithopter
4x Bomat Courier
3x Hope of Ghirapur
4x Signal Pest
4x Goblin Guide
4x Legion Loyalist
3x Goblin Bushwhacker
4x Burning-Tree Emissary
3x Reckless Bushwhacker
3x Kuldotha Rebirth
2x Atarka's Command
Mana (18):
3x Mox Opal
4x Copperline Gorge
3x Mountain
2x Stomping Ground
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Bloodstained Mire
3x Forked Bolt
3x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Ancient Grudge
2x Destructive Revelry
2x Dolmen Gate
2x Spellskite
1x Genesis Chamber (still untested)
2x Blood Moon (against path decks)
Artifact Count: 22 cards
Red Mana symbols: 19
green mana symbols: 2
Hybrid mana symbols: 8
Average mana cost = 1.02
So these are the things I considered when tweaking my list:
I may drop the last two atarka's commands for more bushwhacker effects. I cannot say until I spend a night testing the new card.
Spec Ops - you said "I removed BTE because she inherently adds jank i.e. sit in the hand if you don't have Reckless Bushwhacker or three mana and a Goblin Bushwhacker."
We have very different expectations for this card, and that might be why I seem to have better experiences with it than you do. I do not look at BTE as a combo card - I look at it as a free creature that has insanely good combo potential. I almost never hold BTE in my hand unless I have the combo and am lacking the second mana source (no choice) or the game state requires an alpha strike of some sort. Producing 1R and 1G mana I very rarely don't have something to do with both on T2-3. I usually just use the BTE as a 2/2 body that cantrips mana and allows me to vomit more weenies onto the field. Adding Hope of Ghirapur - I now have even more to do with that green mana. In the past, I sometimes cast atarka's commands off of it even without haste, just to use the mana - even though this wasn't the most optimal usage of the command spell, it was the most efficient usage of my mana - which I feel turns into the highest win percentage for the deck. This is the main reason I like BTE - it massively allows me to ouptpace my opponent's 1-for-1 removal and board development - which is ultimately leveraging all the strengths of this deck.
Post SB, BTE also allows me to develop my aggro plan, and drop hate cards without losing too much steam. All of my SB cards can be played off of a BTE trigger. In fact, the only cards that do not play well with BTE's trigger are my three copies of goblin bushwhacker. This is why in my past list I cut him down, while maintaining 4-of reckless bushwhacker. Currently I have a 3-3 split to start going into testing.
Anyway, I just wanted to share my thoughts...
I feel bad for posting so often lol. I guess people wanting updates on other versions of goblin decks can just skip my postings until we return to a goblin-inclusive block.
The implications for Hope of Ghirapur are incredible:
Infect
sorcery speed removal
combo decks that we race
other non-creature artifact decks like tezzeret
boggles
death shadow zoo combo
more
Our ability to give this guy haste is incredible - locking opponents out of sweeper answers for that key 4th turn swing, or keeping decks like infect from being able to swing back effectively.
I am also having trouble fitting it. I think I want to run it as a 3-of and will probably cut
-2 atarka's command
-1 ornithopter
from my RG gobots build to start
Looking at all the new tools, tezz players will have to re-evaluate the necessity of cards like bridge. With the new additions, it is seeming a U/B instant speed tezz control list might be a more viable option. It is hard to say now what will be best.
With this many game-changing cards, its necessary to take a step back and build from the bottom up rather than try to fit new cards into old builds.
By game changers I mean
fatal push
metallic rebuke
whir of invention (maybe)
reverse engineer (maybe)
(and possibly more to come?)
I can see a toolbox artifact control deck built with a tezz or thopter combo finish in mind.