Dang, no talk about the new Metallic Mimic for Goblins here? I think in a Gobots build with Kuldotha Rebirth it would be a huge play. Mimic on 2, Rebirth and Bushwhacker on 3 swings for 14.
The problem I predict with metallic mimic in gobots is there are enough non-goblin creatures in the deck to make it quite inconsistent. Situations like the one you mention are pretty nice but probably very inconsistent.
I will try it out though. When I first saw the card I didn't really imagine a home for it in the goblin lists I have played. But I know a lot of people saw bomat courier and thought the same thing. I can say bomat has been amazing in my deck.
Worth a test in place of burning-tree emissary for sure. I think it will be to slow most of the time.
Edit-
Also, the best time to play kuldotha rebirth is T1 to get the most damage. Waiting until T3...
Not including any other cards just to see the sequencing potential:
So is the 2 damage difference worth it? Still probably not in gobots. In regular goblin decks (all goblin type) a true lord is probably better fir sequencing reasons.
In gobots its less good because of the high volume of creatures that dont share a type and the awkward sequencing will probably work against the natural speed of the deck. Also a lightning bolt will ruin your day, whereas normally its no big deal. Imagine a t3 bolt in response to the casting of rebirth in the scenario above. 7 less damage? (Clearly my brain is fried)
Like i said already. It is worth a test, but im not rushing to preorder it.
In general they have been mostly a ripoff lately regardless. Unless you preordered copter or pummeler last set.
Dang, no talk about the new Metallic Mimic for Goblins here? I think in a Gobots build with Kuldotha Rebirth it would be a huge play. Mimic on 2, Rebirth and Bushwhacker on 3 swings for 14.
The problem I predict with metallic mimic in gobots is there are enough non-goblin creatures in the deck to make it quite inconsistent. Situations like the one you mention are pretty nice but probably very inconsistent.
I will try it out though. When I first saw the card I didn't really imagine a home for it in the goblin lists I have played. But I know a lot of people saw bomat courier and thought the same thing. I can say bomat has been amazing in my deck.
Worth a test in place of burning-tree emissary for sure. I think it will be to slow most of the time.
Edit-
Also, the best time to play kuldotha rebirth is T1 to get the most damage. Waiting until T3...
Not including any other cards just to see the sequencing potential:
Right. its a fun way to build the deck just be careful with your ratios and curve. Not right for every build. Definitely capable of throwing off your opponents with huge swings though.
Gemstone Cavern a good SB card so you can just have the play G2/G3 no matter what?
Is Simian Spirit Guide worth the tempo?
I think it's okay in mono red, but there's really not much room for it in G/R
I had a t1 blood moon once with two spirit guides. That was one of the most sinister things ive done in modern. And it was against an abzan deck lol.
I think fast mana is good, but you need to understand the costs. The only way to know is to trh it out in whatever brew you are working in.
I used spirit guides in a naya goblin deck quite effectively in place of lands (16 lands + 3-4 ssg).
I discussed this a lot at the time in this thread about a year ago
Currently i use mox opal in gobots so no need...
Its not realh correct or incorrect to use ssg. Its kind of a personal choice - do you want to gamble a bit for a payoff? Also better than topdecking a land past T3.
Really? I remember control decks being a pain on MTGO especially Grix. I would agree with the PoE speeding up BM, but my opps wise up and hold onto PoE until the bitter end. I want to agree with Genesis Chamber, but it reminds me of Quest for the Goblin Lord. It is a great card, but unless you draw it early it does not merit the its worth. Since I have not cast it on my end (play tested it) am I right on my critique? Maybe someone can help me out on that.
Yeah, I haven't had any issues with control running my version of gobots. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I find it easy to overwhelm their removal, and they usually path the goblin guide or whatever I play on T1.
I find the argument that "unless you draw it early it does not merit the its worth" for any card to be somewhat silly regarding decks like this. Let's be honest - we are playing a glass cannon deck. You can only really count on your first 3-4 draws anyway. You can use that argument for ANY card because if you haven't won by T5 (latest) you probably aren't going to (especially since gobots doesnt run burn). So opening 7 + 2 draws is a reasonable shot for anything. The truth is - you could just never sideboard in this kind of deck and probably do just fine. As with any deck of this nature, going balls to the wall is how you win. Whenever I try and get overly creative it muddies up that formula. So I look for cards that support the decks main strategies while giving a unique advantage vs certain decks. This is why I look for cheap artifacts and creatures for my SB.
Sideboard cards add a slight advantage - nothing is going to revolutionize the playstyle of the deck or dramatically change any bad matchup. The deck really can't afford that and it is a caveat of playing this sort of strategy.
This is why I like Bomat Courier so much. It gives the deck a better chance if it lives past T3 and provides some cushion against board wipes. All while being an aggressive synergistic component of the deck. Like a bonus.
On a side note - Forked bolt has been the MVP of my SB so far. Helping in all sorts of situations. I would say its my most common swap:
-3 Kuldotha Rebirth
+3 Forked Bolt
against other decks that are weak to it.
Disclaimer - I haven't played in a few weeks and thus haven't tested Genesis Chamber yet. It is sitting in my SB as a 1-of currently. Holiday season and ankle surgery have sort of hindered my gaming (right foot - not being able to drive...)
So for me the jury is still out on Chamber... but I see tremendous potential in the card especially when combined with BTE in a deck like mine. Who knows how it will work though... Has anyone else tested it?
Question guys, I've been off the play network for a tick, but was tweaking my SB out of boredom and I noticed a lack of SB solutions for control decks. Blood moon comes to mind but it is a three costing solution, and that's if it isn't countered. What SB solutions do you use to stay abreast the rising tide of overloaded target removal, sweepers, and permission splashes?
I generally dont have issues with control so i dont dedicate a ton of slots for it in my sideboard.
Going up against control i know i need to play around sweepers, and sometimes i plan on my first creature getting bolted or pathed. This factors into my choices for keeping vs mulligans.
Path to exile makes running blood moon out of the side way better. I have two in my board.
The recent suggestion of genesis chamber also seems well suited for a control matchup.
This deck and primer have inspired me to finally create a MTGSalvation account. I felt like I needed to share my version of 8whack that has been doing very well. Basically, you bring in the Genesis Chambers and take out the Atarka's Commands against any deck that could have multiple board wipes. With a Genesis chamber, all you need is 1 creature plus a bushwhacker to turn a zero power board state into a 8-10 power board state.
This deck has been extremely fun. Does great online and at FNMs.
Why Vault Skirge instead of something more aggresive like Bromat Courier or another goblin?
I realy like the idea of genesis chamber. So much i will try it out next tournament. Great synergy with bte as a t2 play. It allows tou to apply pressure and set up for a massive swing t3+ regardless of boardwipes
The problem isn't the foils. The problem is that they use a different printing process for mass-produced products like intro packs, duel decks, etc. which makes the foils look dark and usually awful. Keep printing foil commanders but use the normal printing process like they do for pack foils instead of this mass-produced super-dark nonsense.
I ordered the set. Breyas foil is amazing but the rest arent so great. Atraxa is by far the worst. The foiling ruined the art completely. Its crazy to me the difference between these two cards. The most valuable one has the worst foiling. Disappointed.
Personally Breya made up for it, but i think most people are going tk be dissappointed in Atraxa. A big let down. The card is so dark that from more than a foot away it looks like a dark rectangle with nothing in it...
I have built a Breya deck and Ive been playing it for just over a week (proxies). My cards came in the mail yesterday.
First - the art and foiling on Breya is by far the best of the 4-c commanders.
I struggled with the same thing you are - not going combo. So I went "artificier" theme and it has worked out really really well. The deck is mostly a value deck. I avoided many of the combos, except two - thopter sword, and infinite mana with rings and monolith. Playing it about 6 times so far I have had a ton of fun, the deck gets out of control quickly, and it is very powerful. Haven't needed any combos to win yet, although I had one on board last game I played (thopter, sword, time sieve). Honestly in this deck, time sieve is an easy win condition to pull off with a conjurer's closet. I still have a maybeboard of 105 cards though...
That's yawls opinion, but it's Frank's call along with moderators. Look at the zoo primer. It has a lot more variants that see a lot more play than ours. And, there all in one primer and thread. Does Gobots really merit it's own primer when you look at it from that perspective. Bottom line, I don't see Gobots going anywhere.
+1
@Fel15
Just about the only recent developments here are gobots lists. You could go back to a stagnant thread if you want...
Talking about this is a waste of forum space. Since you are so concerned about derailing conversations. Goblins hasn't been a very competitive deck and people are sort if bored of the standard. Talking about new goblin variants (hardly new) is what is keeping this thread alive recently.
Gobots has as much "goblin" synergy as 8 whack. This is quite clear. Kuldotha rebirth - theres your synergy anyway. Let me know when they start making goblin artifacts...
Ugh
Edit-
Just for your peace of mind, I will point out that artifact interaction is a cornerstone of the tribe. Especially the goblins on Mirrodin (ever hear of the krark clan and their ironworks?)
"Goblins are a race of diminutive humanoids, frequently encountered in underground warrens in mountain areas. Goblins are usually portrayed with low intelligence and poor judgment, but often demonstrate a certain ingenuity and affinity for artifacts"
Goblins + Artifacts is a natural fit, and a flavor win.
There are so many different ways to make a goblin deck, don't get upset because some are different than yours.
#goblindecksmatter
I love playing zombie tribal decks and enjoy board control decks. Breya will be my first artifact deck in edh (have always played in modern) because she is the firstartifact general I really liked and felt had a lot of flavor rather than just a combo enabler.
Out of all these lists none of them are built to be 100% competitive, although I will probably push my mono black stax deck to competitive at some point just so I have one (maga, or braids if it ever gets unbanned). Generally I play to have good fun board states and a good multiplayer atmosphere. I only use combos to end long games and wouldn't pull one early just because I can. I love edh for flavor and because I can use cards that would never see play in modern.
the reason i am interested in lavamancer is not for the removal of t1 plays. he's abilities would be usefull post t3-t4 he can remove all flying threats from the affinity deck if they haven't been arcbound/Overseed, he can remove an Ezuri, archdruid etc. And he can go to face if there is a deadlock, since none of those decks pack removal he won't be a sittning duck. And last but not least he is a 1cmc creature that can be another hitter. I can see a forked Bolt here to, but im thinking a creature fit's gameplan better against other decks, and he can also hit at instant speed. keep in mind that im refering to maindeck 1-2 copies and in my local meta wich got Alot of elves/affinity
For what you are stating her, forked bolt is still better in every way unless you really need the attacker (1/1 with no evasion or bonus).
"usefull post t3-t4 he can remove all flying threats from the affinity deck if they haven't been arcbound/Overseed, he can remove an Ezuri, archdruid etc."
- forked bolt does this AND allows you to kill a T1 dork. Which is even more important in your meta. If you are playing a T1 grim lavamancer in goblins you are going to have a bad time trying to kill something with it until the turns you mentioned (3-4). And if that is what you are doing in a goblin deck I think it is going to be difficult to win unless you can muster up an alpha strike on T4-5. Also, with lavamancer make sure you are running at least 8 fetches. In a deck that runs very few non-creature spells it just seems like it has so much potential to be problematic, and too slow to matter when you really need it. Goblins is really a T4 deck (unless you are running some slower version that has these control elements), so planning on killing a dude on T3-4 is very counterproductive - you should just plan to kill the opponent.
Also, killing a T1 dork is probably better than killing a T3 lord most of the time in a goblin deck.
Now THIS is a card I can get excited about in gobots
(Edited math)
So is the 2 damage difference worth it? Still probably not in gobots. In regular goblin decks (all goblin type) a true lord is probably better fir sequencing reasons.
In gobots its less good because of the high volume of creatures that dont share a type and the awkward sequencing will probably work against the natural speed of the deck. Also a lightning bolt will ruin your day, whereas normally its no big deal. Imagine a t3 bolt in response to the casting of rebirth in the scenario above. 7 less damage? (Clearly my brain is fried)
Like i said already. It is worth a test, but im not rushing to preorder it.
In general they have been mostly a ripoff lately regardless. Unless you preordered copter or pummeler last set.
It is not happening. I goofed lol
So the difference in that sequence is then 2 damage in favor of the mimic.
I did t quick right before i left work...
The problem I predict with metallic mimic in gobots is there are enough non-goblin creatures in the deck to make it quite inconsistent. Situations like the one you mention are pretty nice but probably very inconsistent.
I will try it out though. When I first saw the card I didn't really imagine a home for it in the goblin lists I have played. But I know a lot of people saw bomat courier and thought the same thing. I can say bomat has been amazing in my deck.
Worth a test in place of burning-tree emissary for sure. I think it will be to slow most of the time.
Edit-
Also, the best time to play kuldotha rebirth is T1 to get the most damage. Waiting until T3...
Not including any other cards just to see the sequencing potential:
T1 ornithopter, kuldotha rebirth
T2 Goblin Bushwhacker, attack = 8 damage
T3 attack = 8 damage
Total = 16 damage
T1 ornithopter
T2 Metallic Mimic
T3 Kuldotha, bushwhacker, attack = 14 damage
with proper sequencing and without mimic, the deck does more damage.
I had a t1 blood moon once with two spirit guides. That was one of the most sinister things ive done in modern. And it was against an abzan deck lol.
I think fast mana is good, but you need to understand the costs. The only way to know is to trh it out in whatever brew you are working in.
I used spirit guides in a naya goblin deck quite effectively in place of lands (16 lands + 3-4 ssg).
I discussed this a lot at the time in this thread about a year ago
Currently i use mox opal in gobots so no need...
Its not realh correct or incorrect to use ssg. Its kind of a personal choice - do you want to gamble a bit for a payoff? Also better than topdecking a land past T3.
For reference, this is my current sideboard:
2x Spellskite
3x Forked Bolt
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Ancient Grudge
1x Destructive Revelry
2x Dolmen Gate
1x Genesis Chamber
2x Blood Moon
Same MB list I posted a few pages back...
Yeah, I haven't had any issues with control running my version of gobots. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I find it easy to overwhelm their removal, and they usually path the goblin guide or whatever I play on T1.
I find the argument that "unless you draw it early it does not merit the its worth" for any card to be somewhat silly regarding decks like this. Let's be honest - we are playing a glass cannon deck. You can only really count on your first 3-4 draws anyway. You can use that argument for ANY card because if you haven't won by T5 (latest) you probably aren't going to (especially since gobots doesnt run burn). So opening 7 + 2 draws is a reasonable shot for anything. The truth is - you could just never sideboard in this kind of deck and probably do just fine. As with any deck of this nature, going balls to the wall is how you win. Whenever I try and get overly creative it muddies up that formula. So I look for cards that support the decks main strategies while giving a unique advantage vs certain decks. This is why I look for cheap artifacts and creatures for my SB.
Sideboard cards add a slight advantage - nothing is going to revolutionize the playstyle of the deck or dramatically change any bad matchup. The deck really can't afford that and it is a caveat of playing this sort of strategy.
This is why I like Bomat Courier so much. It gives the deck a better chance if it lives past T3 and provides some cushion against board wipes. All while being an aggressive synergistic component of the deck. Like a bonus.
On a side note - Forked bolt has been the MVP of my SB so far. Helping in all sorts of situations. I would say its my most common swap:
-3 Kuldotha Rebirth
+3 Forked Bolt
against other decks that are weak to it.
Disclaimer - I haven't played in a few weeks and thus haven't tested Genesis Chamber yet. It is sitting in my SB as a 1-of currently. Holiday season and ankle surgery have sort of hindered my gaming (right foot - not being able to drive...)
So for me the jury is still out on Chamber... but I see tremendous potential in the card especially when combined with BTE in a deck like mine. Who knows how it will work though... Has anyone else tested it?
I generally dont have issues with control so i dont dedicate a ton of slots for it in my sideboard.
Going up against control i know i need to play around sweepers, and sometimes i plan on my first creature getting bolted or pathed. This factors into my choices for keeping vs mulligans.
Path to exile makes running blood moon out of the side way better. I have two in my board.
The recent suggestion of genesis chamber also seems well suited for a control matchup.
In general i only side 0-3 things in with gobots.
I realy like the idea of genesis chamber. So much i will try it out next tournament. Great synergy with bte as a t2 play. It allows tou to apply pressure and set up for a massive swing t3+ regardless of boardwipes
I ordered the set. Breyas foil is amazing but the rest arent so great. Atraxa is by far the worst. The foiling ruined the art completely. Its crazy to me the difference between these two cards. The most valuable one has the worst foiling. Disappointed.
Personally Breya made up for it, but i think most people are going tk be dissappointed in Atraxa. A big let down. The card is so dark that from more than a foot away it looks like a dark rectangle with nothing in it...
First - the art and foiling on Breya is by far the best of the 4-c commanders.
I struggled with the same thing you are - not going combo. So I went "artificier" theme and it has worked out really really well. The deck is mostly a value deck. I avoided many of the combos, except two - thopter sword, and infinite mana with rings and monolith. Playing it about 6 times so far I have had a ton of fun, the deck gets out of control quickly, and it is very powerful. Haven't needed any combos to win yet, although I had one on board last game I played (thopter, sword, time sieve). Honestly in this deck, time sieve is an easy win condition to pull off with a conjurer's closet. I still have a maybeboard of 105 cards though...
Here is my list:
1x Breya, Etherium Shaper
Creatures (27):
1x Goblin Welder
1x Chief Engineer
1x Myr Retriever
1x Myrsmith
1x Slobad, Goblin Tinkerer
1x Spellskite
1x Hanna, Ship's Navigator
1x Muzzio, Visionary Architect
1x Sydri, Galvanic Genius
1x Thopter Engineer
1x Treasure Mage
1x Trinket Mage
1x Arcum Dagsson
1x Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient
1x Padeem, Consul of Innovation
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1x Purphoros, God of the Forge
1x Solemn Simulacrum
1x Angel of Invention
1x Kuldotha Forgemaster
1x Duplicant
1x Hellkite Tyrant
1x Marionette Master
1x Sharuum the Hegemon
1x Myr Battlesphere
1x Platinum Angel
Spells (37):
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mox Opal
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Expedition Map
1x Mana Vault
1x Skullclamp
1x Sol Ring
1x Cranial Plating
1x Ichor Wellspring
1x Lightning Greaves
1x Mycosynth Wellspring
1x Reshape
1x Sword of the Meek
1x Thopter Foundry
1x Time Sieve
1x Transmute Artifact
1x Ashnod's Altar
1x Basalt Monolith
1x Fabricate
1x Proteus Staff
1x Rings of Brighthearth
1x Saheeli Rai
1x Trash for Treasure
1x Aetherworks Marvel
1x Clock of Omens
1x Daretti, Scrap Savant
1x Krark-Clan Ironworks
1x Panharmonicon
1x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1x Unwinding Clock
1x Conjurer's Closet
1x Scourglass
1x Tezzeret, the Seeker
1x Mycosynth Lattice
1x Open the Vaults
1x Spine of Ish Sah
1x Darksteel Forge
1x Academy Ruins
1x Adarkar Wastes
1x Ancient Den
1x Arcane Sanctum
1x Arid Mesa
1x Badlands
1x Blinkmoth Nexus
1x Buried Ruin
1x City of Brass
1x Crumbling Necropolis
1x Darksteel Citadel
1x Flooded Strand
1x Godless Shrine
1x Great Furnace
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Inventors' Fair
2x Island
1x Mana Confluence
1x Marsh Flats
1x Mishra's Factory
1x Mountain
2x Plains
1x Plateau
1x Polluted Delta
1x Seat of the Synod
1x Steam Vents
1x Sulfurous Springs
1x Swamp
1x Temple of the False God
1x Underground River
1x Vault of Whispers
1x Vault of the Archangel
1x Watery Grave
+1
@Fel15
Just about the only recent developments here are gobots lists. You could go back to a stagnant thread if you want...
Talking about this is a waste of forum space. Since you are so concerned about derailing conversations. Goblins hasn't been a very competitive deck and people are sort if bored of the standard. Talking about new goblin variants (hardly new) is what is keeping this thread alive recently.
Gobots has as much "goblin" synergy as 8 whack. This is quite clear. Kuldotha rebirth - theres your synergy anyway. Let me know when they start making goblin artifacts...
Ugh
Edit-
Just for your peace of mind, I will point out that artifact interaction is a cornerstone of the tribe. Especially the goblins on Mirrodin (ever hear of the krark clan and their ironworks?)
To quote the very first section of the MTG Salvation Wiki:
"Goblins are a race of diminutive humanoids, frequently encountered in underground warrens in mountain areas. Goblins are usually portrayed with low intelligence and poor judgment, but often demonstrate a certain ingenuity and affinity for artifacts"
Goblins + Artifacts is a natural fit, and a flavor win.
There are so many different ways to make a goblin deck, don't get upset because some are different than yours.
#goblindecksmatter
Kuon, Ogre Ascendant mono-black stax (recently built and untested)
Gisa and Geralf Zombie Tribal (right down to the lands)
Drana, Liberator of Malakir Tribal aggro
Kaalia of the Vast - probably my best multiplayer deck
Norin the Wary (it started with Gaka's list a long time ago and his since evolved quite a bit)
Building:
Atraxa, Praetor's Voice - infect (done, waiting for release)
Breya, Etherium Shaper - artificier theme (done, waiting for release)
Scion of Ur Dragon - tribal dragons
Thraximundar - 1v1 list
Reaper King - no clue how to build this yet...
Retired:
Nicol Bolas - grixis pillowfort and combo deck
Thraximundar - zombie tribal (now Gisa and Geralf)
Zedruu the Greathearted - enchantment pillowfort control
I love playing zombie tribal decks and enjoy board control decks. Breya will be my first artifact deck in edh (have always played in modern) because she is the firstartifact general I really liked and felt had a lot of flavor rather than just a combo enabler.
Out of all these lists none of them are built to be 100% competitive, although I will probably push my mono black stax deck to competitive at some point just so I have one (maga, or braids if it ever gets unbanned). Generally I play to have good fun board states and a good multiplayer atmosphere. I only use combos to end long games and wouldn't pull one early just because I can. I love edh for flavor and because I can use cards that would never see play in modern.
Here
For what you are stating her, forked bolt is still better in every way unless you really need the attacker (1/1 with no evasion or bonus).
"usefull post t3-t4 he can remove all flying threats from the affinity deck if they haven't been arcbound/Overseed, he can remove an Ezuri, archdruid etc."
- forked bolt does this AND allows you to kill a T1 dork. Which is even more important in your meta. If you are playing a T1 grim lavamancer in goblins you are going to have a bad time trying to kill something with it until the turns you mentioned (3-4). And if that is what you are doing in a goblin deck I think it is going to be difficult to win unless you can muster up an alpha strike on T4-5. Also, with lavamancer make sure you are running at least 8 fetches. In a deck that runs very few non-creature spells it just seems like it has so much potential to be problematic, and too slow to matter when you really need it. Goblins is really a T4 deck (unless you are running some slower version that has these control elements), so planning on killing a dude on T3-4 is very counterproductive - you should just plan to kill the opponent.
Also, killing a T1 dork is probably better than killing a T3 lord most of the time in a goblin deck.