Another disappointment.
One thing I'd like to know is whether Gavin or those guys actually pay money for their internal drafts or whether they get an allotment for R&D and they just draft to get a feel. Because right now, I don't really want to drop $45 CDN for a draft when I could use that $45 to get a card or two out of the set as singles.
Message to Gavin and others that work on this set: If I don't get $10 U.S. out of value per pack, I'm not opening the pack, period. Keep the EV high and my interest will remain high.
You know this isn't how EV or gambling works right? I get that people are upset that the value gets soaked up by a few cards but yeah, it hasn't been a good idea to crack packs for value in a long time. If you're going to draft, you're paying to draft and the additional expense is an experiential cost. You're subsidizing the cost of paying people to design a draft environment, not to shove every card you want into packs so you can conveniently crack the things you need.
I understand your frustration. I don't need Fortune Thief either. On the other hand, if I had the monumental task of designing a set meant to encapsulate the whole of Magic's history in which I wasn't allowed to pick cards from the Reserved List, and had to maintain pretty strict boundaries for numbers of rares/mythics/uncommons, and had to create an interesting limited environment, AND had to cater to a secondary market being mindful not to crash anything entirely then yeah I might throw in Fortune Thief. It's a very rare effect in MtG that is a callback to a well-appreciated card from Magic's History. Moreover, it is a very interesting effect in limited. No it's not a huge hit in terms of value, but it ticks off all the other boxes pretty well.
I think it's important we remember that the variety of employees at Wizards do not solely function to entertain our individual interests. They have a very specific task, and it comes with not pleasing everyone all the time. Are you upset that Rishadan Port is in the set, or are you happy for it? If so, may I ask what red rare you would put in place of Fortune Thief that also speaks to Magic's history in the same way, has a hugely interesting effect on limited, and suddenly fills your pockets as you hope? The only candidate that immediately pops to my mind is Stigma Lasher which really only costs anything because it's not awful and it's scarce.
I don't mean to offend or attack you personally, I just notice a lot of these posts that ignore the idea of EV and what a huge task this actually was to craft this set. It's the internet, use it how you will, but these people work to make a game for everyone, not just you, not just me, not just all of MTGS, and the biting message to an individual in particular feels very unnecessary.
I treat combos the same way I treat the rest of EDH. If I've seen it enough, it's just boring. I'm fine for the game to end, and I run plenty of kill-switches in my decks. If you're going for the same combo every time, it's guaranteed not the combo I mind, it's that you're boring and I think you're a bad person because you're boring (to me).
It doesn't help that we have forums like these where people attempt to collect all the infinite combos in single threads as a tool for people to use just so they don't have to think of the synergies themselves. While I appreciate the strength of the information age, it also accelerates the wear on these sorts of situations. I get it, you've just started playing and you're fascinated with Niv-Mizzet/Mindmoil, Trikaeus, etc. I'd just rather not wait for you to get to a point (if you will at all) where you're bored by these plays at all.
Again, just my opinion. If I wanted to watch reruns of the same combos, I can just watch legacy dredge do it's business.
I love a good Glissa control list and ran one for a while. I'll second the call for Titania as a very interesting general, similar in vein to Jolrael, Empress of Beasts. As much as Yisan is very much a green commander, you can build him a lot of different ways depending on what flavor you're invested in. Lastly, I've been working on a build for Bounteous Kirin that runs itself like a storm deck, optimally with Aluren, but mostly toward the idea of one-shotting people with Aetherflux Reservoir.
I've been working on a stax list. I can't tell if it's just worse than the same deck with Karn at the lead though. I'm pretty sure it is, but I've never felt better than a T1 sol ring into my general and a skullclamp. NEVER.
Atraxa is sweet. Proliferate has lots of applications.
Breya I like the design, but man that cost is steeeep. I wish she was a 2/2 and her ability cost 1, sac 1. Or even 2, sac 1. Or just sac 2. 2, sac 2 is really painful, especially since the first and last ability are pretty niche. I like the option to kill stuff or burn people out in response to stuff, but you have to keep a ton of mana up AND somehow find the time to generate a ton of artifacts.
Saskia I think is just boring. And not very powerful.
The kings are group hug. Group hug is the worst thing since bagpipes. (actually I like bagpipes sometimes, so let's go with the worst thing since Star Wars: attack of the clones instead)
The ogre seems fine I guess, but I don't like cascade. Chaos in general does not appeal to me. I prefer to play precisely and carefully, not just overwhelm with value.
Of the other commanders, most of them are at least decent, and some are real cool. The RW ones are a travesty, though, and ludevic is so horrible I'd rather have nothing on the battlefield than him.
I blame most of the failures on the archetypes. group hug is for people who would rather be playing co-op. chaos is for people who would rather be playing craps. aggro is for people who would rather be playing standard. There's only 2 viable archetypes in the collection. Luckily the partner commanders don't adhere too closely to the archetypes.
This reads like an extremely toxic approach to the format and your meta (bolded for emphasis). What I gather from your post is that you don't like playing aggro, group hug, or chaos decks. Moreover, it appears you adamantly dislike playing with others who use those approaches, but correct me if I'm wrong.
We knew 4C commanders were a difficult design space to do well. I'm shocked they went with archetypal models at all; so far I think the 4C commanders we've seen do an amazing job of capturing those archetypes, so kudos to them on that. This isn't the space to discuss the actual viability of archetypes, but I'll reiterate a sentiment heard through these forums and in this sub-forum frequently. There's a good chance these products aren't made with you in mind, and there's an even better chance that your definition of EDH and fun isn't ubiquitous. I appreciate your opinion, but I'd really like to see these threads discuss the strengths of these cards rather than their viability in what sounds like (and again I could be wrong) an extremely tailored and competitive meta.
As for what we've seen, it has been a coaster for me. I think Atraxa is the most interesting we've seen in that she has so many builds with her.
I think the Kings follow suit because while they seem to scream Group Hug, but I hear gentle whispers of Stax and control that I'm eager to see.
I'm incredibly impressed with the design on Saskia because as an ETB effect, she does so much as far as leading aggro and really getting across a whole table. I run an Athreos aggro weenie deck and I think she'd easily give him a run for his money.
I don't believe we've seen the ogre formally so I'll omit him for now. So lastly for me is Breya. She's incredibly versatile in build and power, but she's easily the laziest possible design we've seen on any 4C to date (not a big sample but still). Atraxa is similarly offensive but she has a certain elegance and simplicity that I admire. Breya feels like they went through 20 drafts of the card and finally decided that it didn't matter if it was good enough anymore. I loathe the idea of playing across from her because she essentially does whatever she wants, but most of it is done poorly and through a bunch of clunky interactions that will involve a ton of triggers that players will undoubtedly flounder on. If you want a general that does a lot of things, there are whole lists out there that won't revolve around a creature with such a superfluous amount of text. That said, her art is beautiful, and I'd almost run her for that.
Partner is a brilliant mechanic. I can see immediately why they were a bit shy with the generals in terms of creativity and power. Something boring like Bruse Tarl is hugely dangerous as a partner and on his own. None of these are overtly powerful, and none of them are overtly super interesting likely because the task of balancing 15 super interesting and complicated generals that lead to 105 (I think this is the right number) of possible decks and play styles is a ludicrous expectation. I would have loved to see more interesting commanders, especially in place of Akiri or Ishai, but I didn't expect Partner to be remotely possible, and having seen it, I wouldn't dream that Wizards would hand off 15 ridiculous generals to the general public that this product is aimed at. I think of lot of these will prove their mettle over time, including the Boros ones as boring as they may be. I can't wait to see how people begin to brew with them. There's so much to do.
As for the other stuff we've seen, I'm disgustingly impressed. Save for the undaunted wrath, I can't think of any of the cards I don't want to play or see in a match soon. I'm not looking forward to dealing with slews of that Stonehoof Centaur, and I wish more people at Wizards would come to appreciate EDH as more than just Battlecruiser magic where the goal is always something like Avacyn or Iona.
Name pending 4RU
Legendary creature - human artificer
Whenever an artifacts enters the battlefield under your control you may put a charge counter on ~. t, remove all charge counters from ~. Search your library for an artifact with converted mana cost equal to the amount of counters removed this way, reveal it and put it into your hand. Shuffle your library afterward.
1/3
This actually feels remarkably weak. For 6 mana this tutors something far more horribly than Kuldotha Forgemaster. I might suggest a power up:
Urza, Student Artificer2UR
Legendary Creature - Human Artificer
~ enters the battlefield with X charge counters, where X is the number of artifacts you control.
Whenever you cast an artifact spell, put a charge counter on ~. T, Remove all charge counters from ~: Search your library for an artifact with converted mana cost equal to the number of counters removed this way, reveal it and put it into your hand. Shuffle your library afterward.
2/4
It's wordy, but more powerful and definitely just as vulnerable. I could see it being pushed to 3UR if it's too good at 4.
Legendary Dimir Wizard 1UB UUT Counter Target Spell UBT Draw A Card, Lose 1 Life BBT Target Player Discards A Card
There's a lot to still go from here, but I think the idea of the card is nice. It reminds me a lot of the masters from Invasion. My biggest issues here are that the counter is a hard one, and that the middle ability is technically a black one. Maybe something more like
Vina, Circu's Disciple1UB
Legendary Creature - Vedalken Wizard 1UU, t: Counter target spell. It's controller draws a card. 1UB, t: Players cannot search their libraries this turn. 1BB, t: Target player discards a card. Draw a card.
1/2
I forgot how much I enjoyed that middle effect, and how it somehow ended up on a Dimir card.
Ukir the Noixelfer UBRG
Legendary creature - Human wizard
As Ukir enters the battlefield sacrifice any number of creatures. For each creature sacrificed this way , create a token that's a copy of that creature.
2/2
I wanted to create a fun build around commander. The card combos with token-doubling/Etb effects and get's destroyed by mass bounce effects.
It's neat as a commander that interacts strangely with other cards in your deck, but it doesn't really do anything by itself.
The ability as-worded is broken. "As X enters the battlefield" is typically reserved for characteristic-changing abilities (Devour, for example, which I think you may have based the wording off of. It adds +1/+1 counters which might be important if the base creature is 0/0). The ability should be "When X enters the battlefield". The ability also allows Ukir to sacrifice him/herself, creating infinite ETBs and sacrifices. I recommend specifying nontoken, nonlegendary; the former to prevent too much weirdness, the latter to prevent self-sacrificing and infinite combos with Sakashima the Imposter.
Yeah I had some trouble with the wording. I didn't take copy effects besides its own ability into account which is causing a lot of infinite loops.
V2.0
Ukir , the reflexion UBRG
Legendary creature - Human wizard
When you cast Ukir , the reflexion, you may sacrifice any number of non-token creatures. For each creature sacrificed this way , create a token that's a copy of that creature. Riku's quest for power led him to new possibilities
2/2
Changed the wording a bit to prevent the broken loops.I think it works as intended now.
I like this as a cast trigger but I'll agree this doesn't feel red anymore. I'd love it as a sultai commander though. If you will:
Ukir, Shattered Mirror1UBG
Legendary Creature - Wizard Nightmare
When you cast Ukir , the reflexion, you may sacrifice any number of non-token creatures. For each creature sacrificed this way , create a token that's a copy of that creature. Those tokens are black Horrors in addition to their colors and creature types. For every reflection, there's a surface that can be broken.
2/2
I'm wanting a commander that allows some combination of RWG to generate pseudo-card advantage in the form of tribal vanilla token creatures or keyword token creatures (lifelink etc)
~~~, Legion Commander RW1
Legendary Creature
At the beginning of the game, if ~~~ is in your commander zone, choose a creature type. ~~~ becomes that creature type.
Whenever you cast a creature of that type, if that creature has no abilities other than keyword abilities, return that card to your hand. Then place a token onto the battlefield that is a copy of that card.
2/2
Or perhaps,
~~~, Logistics Officer RW1
Legendary Creature, Human Officer x: Put a token into play that is a copy of a creature you control that has no abilities. Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcery.
2/2
Any suggestions?
The Legion Commander: I understand what you're trying to do but it feels a bit off in the sense that it uses a lot of specific rules text to accomplish what you want. As for the Logistics Officer, what is X? Also, creating token copies of your own creatures is something green and blue do, and going by the "no abilities" clause, that is green (Muraganda Petroglyphs so i'd sya that card, if it existed, would be green. How about this:
Din of Velis Vel2RW
Legendary creature - Shapeshifter
Changeling.
Other creatures you control have changeling.
Whenever a creature enters the battlefield under an opponent's control, create a token that's a copy of that creature. It gains haste and "At the beginning of your end step, sacrifice this creature".
3/3
I think this does what you want: it is a changeling so it fits into every tribe. Moreover, you could add a few non-tribe creatures if you want and Din will make sure they get the bonuses as well. The ability is mostly there to combine with the second ability: all copies created will get your tribal bonuses since they become your tribe as well. White has token making effects in general and red gets the " use it only this turn" draw effects, so I feel this second ability fits colorpie wise. The card advantage is of course in the ETB abilities of the creatures copied as well as the fact that you get to attack with each token once (and before your opponent gets to with the original barring haste!) since the tokens die at the end of your turn.
I think these two ideas are strikingly different. The first plays on Muraganda Petroglyphs, which I don't mind at all. I don't think you need the creature type addition.
Legion, Call of the Horde
Legendary Creature - Avatar
~ gets +5/+5 and has indestructible as long as you control five creatures with no abilities. 2G, t: Create a creature that's a copy of target creature with no abilities.
2/2
The second creation, the changeling legend is probably one of my favorites in this thread. I don't see the white in it's flavor, but I don't want it to be mono-red (I mean I want it to be 5-color...). Changing other creatures seem to be in blue's pie during Lorwyn, with only a tinge in white (although I think you're getting the colors from Shields of Velis Vel/Blades of Velis Vel.) I think we can give it a bit more white.
Din of Velis Vel2WR
Legendary Creature - Shapeshifter
Changeling
Other creatures you control have changeling.
W: Target creature you control gains a keyword of your choice from among creatures you control.
Whenever a creature enters the battlefield under an opponent's control, create a token copy of it. Exile that token at the beginning of your next end step.
3/3
For a Boros commander that is not about combat, I always felt Tamanoa was worthy of legendary status, but never understood the green part of it. so here's my take:
Orim of the Cho-Arrim1RW
Legendary Creature - Cleric Rebel
Spells and noncreature permanents you control have lifelink.
Prevent all damage dealt to creatures and planeswalkers you control by non-creature sources.
1/3
This is a general enabling mass damage effects while enabling you to build up right through it. I made the ability lifelink instead of using the Tamanoa wording to prevent stacking with lifelink. Otherwise, I feel she might be a little to oppressive. Her P/T is 1/3 as a nod to the original Orim (See below) and to hammer home the 'non-combatness' of this particular general. The second ability complements the first but also functions as protection for your army (as any healer would) so it does fit right into Boros decks that do care about combat. All in all, I think this makes her open-ended enough to not have every Orim deck play the same. The Rebel type is a nod to the Cho-Arrim being rebels, but also makes her a good trick to search at instant speed.
I concepted this as Orim, Samite Healer. In the story she had a relationship with Cho-Manno, Revolutionary and remained among the Cho-Arrim after the Weatherlight left Mercadia. If she had a second color, I figured it would be red (Due to Orim's Thunder). So this is basically angry Orim.
I love this card because it reminds me of how much I've always wanted Tamanoa to be a general, and about how often I've thought of building around Searing Meditation. I would change nothing about this card, and I hope to see something like it in print soon.
There are not that many legendary Sphinxes, so no story lore.
Angor, the Feral Sphinx3UG
Legendary creature - Sphinx
Flying, Trample, Flash.
When Angor enters a zone, put a +1/+1 counter on target creature and draw a card.
4/4
I think he's nice on curve, with 5 mana ramping you to 6+. With a 4/4 body and evasion, commander damage is an option. And his ability allows for shenanigans through discarding him for value for example by looting or by bouncing him to your hand as a cost for something else while the effect itself, while good, does nothing degenerate on his own. Note that through his ability he can also played as a 5/5 etd draw for 5 by himself.
I hadn't even thought about hidden zones, my biggest fear was the interaction this has with blink. Deadeye Navigator is already filthy without a general tailor-made for it (although I suppose Zegana probably does at least as well). I just imagine that with every blink you get two triggers, it feels pretty filthy.
Vaevictis Asmadi2RRGGBB
Legendary creature - Elder Dragon
Flying, Trample, First Strike.
Whenever you add any amount of R, G, or B to your mana pool, Vaevictis Asmadi gets +X/+0 until end of turn, where X is the amount of mana added to your mana pool.
At the beginning of your upkeep, pay RGB or sacrifice Vaevictis Asmadi.
7/7
Kept the colors, P/T and upkeep but changed/added abilities to bring it up to current power level. The +x/+0 ability is unique in the sense that it does not use the mana added, just triggers off of it. It also synergizes somewhat with the upkeep trigger, since paying for the upkeep will give it +3/+0. Power increase in general is nice with First Strike.
I actually really like the design for it's nostalgia, and it's potential power. I think the comments about it's upkeep cost have their merit, but I don't mind seeing something like this (especially for a being that's supposed to be so old and powerful). Maybe lower the initial cost and keep the upkeep? 5 for a 6/6 with that upkeep still seems pretty dangerous.
Also, I'd like to start updating the original post. If you've posted an idea that's received commentary and you like where it's ended up, let me know and I'll put it up as finished and ready for trial.
I'll be working through others' designs and comments as well, as I have time; I'm glad to see this has gotten interest though and I'll happily echo the idea of bringing forgotten story characters to life. I haven't been heavily invested in magic lore in a while, but I love seeing these ideas come out.
In regards to the two punishment style Boros legends from @Deep_Woods; I love them, and if you don't mind I'll zhuzh them up a bit and add them to the original posting.
I like the idea of of where we ended with the legendary Magpie, but I hate the idea of having so many different types of tokens represented on one card since they came so flavorfully from different places. Gold seems pretty ubiquitous but Clues and Thopters feel centric to specific planes. I'm mostly put off by the flavor behind Clues here, it would make more sense to me if the creature generated some sort of Bauble or Chest to be unlocked. I'll put it in the OP but I'd like to continue making stabs at it.
For now, I'll throw down some commentary on the nephilim and I'll come back later for the rest:
Quote from Anachronity »
Whim-Feast NephilimWRGB
Legendary Creature - Nephilim 1, discard a card: Put a +1/+1 counter on Whim-Feast Nephilim, it gains your choice of first strike, deathtouch, trample, or indestructible until end of turn.
3/3
I find it interesting that you settled for a morphling-esque card in the quartet outside of blue. As it is, it feels boring since it's such a simple morphling. It's obviously not unfair as a result, but I'd like to think we can have weirder effects on Nephilim.
Glutton-Gut NephilimWRGB
Legendary Creature - Nephilim
3, Sacrifice a nonland permanent: Each opponent sacrifices a permanent that shares a type with the card you sacrificed. Put a +1/+1 counter on ~ for each permanent sacrificed this way.
4/4
Quote from Anachronity »
Prism-Fleece NephilimWURG
Legendary Creature - Nephilim
Protection from black
2: Change the text of each spell and each permanent by replacing all instances of one color word with another until end of turn.
4/4
I strongly dislike the protection from black here, until I see it's interaction with the second ability. I actually want to make this stronger and have an effect last until end of game (although I know memory issues will arise). Also, this does not really feel red or green.
Luster-Scale NephilimWURG
Legendary Creature - Nephilim
Protection from black 1, Discard a card, Put a +1/+1 counter on ~: Change the text of each spell and each permanent by replacing all instances of one color word with another. (This does not end at end of turn.)
3/3
It's still not very r/g but I love the idea of adding a counter as a cost, like loyalty on a planeswalker. It's still limited by cards in hand, but it feels very nasty.
Quote from Anachronity »
Slip-Realm NephilimWUBG
Legendary Creature - Nephilim
If a nontoken creature without shadow would be destroyed, regenerate that creature and place a +1/+1 counter on it.
Each creature with a +1/+1 counter has shadow.
5/3
This doesn't combo with things the same way Mikaeus does, and I like the symmetry of the latter effect given how prevalent +1/+1 counters can be, but overall Shadow feels very bland. I think I would honestly prefer something more asymmetric that really tilted the field.
Realm-Skipper NephilimWUBG
Legendary Creature - Nephilim
Creatures you control cannot be blocked and cannot block.
Whenever a creature deals combat damage to a player, put a +1/+1 counter on it.
Whenever a creature with a +1/+1 counter on it deals combat damage to an opponent, it's controller draws a card.
3/3
It's very different, but has a similar effect to the board state I believe. It makes you vulnerable, but the last ability, a la Edric, means that at some point cannons should be pointed away from you.
Quote from Anachronity »
Rift-Grasp NephilimWUBR
Legendary Creature - Nephilim
At the beginning of your upkeep, choose a face-up nonland card at random from exile. Cast that card without paying its mana cost if able.
At the beginning of your end step, each player exiles the top card of his or her library.
3/3
I love this design, but since you only get the benefit on your turn after passing, I could see upping the end of turn ability to two or even three cards a player. This doesn't particularly feel red aside from the random aspect, but I love the effect and would actually want to play this.
Quote from Anachronity »
Grief-Blossom NephilimUBRG
Legendary Creature - Nephilim
If a creature you control would deal combat damage, each opponent loses that much life instead.
If you would draw a card, each opponent discards a card instead.
I'm going to assume this to be a 4/4 because it doesn't feel overpowered given how obnoxious 4C creatures are. I think the more interesting effect is the latter of the two because it creates a difficult game-state for yourself. Honestly, very little of this feeds blue or red, and it's pushing it to call it green. I like the second effect so much though that I'm tempted to keep it and refocus a second ability to better reflect the r/u/g sides:
Grief-Bloom NephilimUBRG
Legendary Creature - Nephilim
If you would draw a card, each opponent discards a card.
Whenever an opponent discards a creature card, create a 1/1 green Saproling.
Whenever an opponent discards a land card, ~ deals 2 damage to them.
Whenever an opponent discards an instant or sorcery card, put the top card of your library into your hand.
3/3
Now it's super wordy, but I also have a huge crush on Waste Not, so I'm all for it.
I do really like your final iteration, it plays interestingly and would definitely have me building a deck around it (if I could curb my interest in breaking the symmetry!) I'll leave further iterations upon it to others, should they wish, but I'll make a note on my original design. It was very intentionally exactly Rites of Flourishing; there are several effects that appear only on a certain type of non-"Legendary Creature" permanent that I would love to have in the command zone as a form of redundancy. The ETB effect was simply to deflect the original critique of cards like Rites of Flourishing as they provide benefit to your opponent before you and thus could be taken advantage of more easily.
That being said, I do like your final design leagues more than my initial toss so I'll add it to my original post. My intent is to keep a log of commanders we design, in their most current and "fair" iteration, much akin to the other running posts that inhabit this sub-forum. In the mean time, I'll throw a few more up here that I've been interested in.
Fier, Gnashing Jaws3RG
Legendary Creature - Spirit Beast
When ~ attacks, until end of turn each creature you control has base power equal to the highest power among creatures you control.
When an attacking creature you control dies, put X +1/+1 counters on target creature, where X is the power of the creature that died.
4/2
The Pale Moon Council2
Legendary Creature - Knight
Your opponents cannot play nonbasic lands.
Discard a card: Exile ~. Return it to the battlefield under its owner's control at the end of turn. Any player may activate this ability.
4/4
I think this is justifiable in both white and red to the point that hybrid is acceptable.
Vella, Skipwing ArchmageUUU
Legendary Creature - Faerie Spellshaper
Flying U, Discard a card, T: Untap each other permanent you control. Activate this ability only during another player's turn.
1/3
Joragal, The Reaching Void10
Legendary Creature - Eldrazi
When you cast ~, each player chooses one card in their hand and exiles the rest.
Each player may pay 1 and 1 life instead of any one colored mana when casting a spell.
You may cast cards from any player's exile. If you do, you lose life equal to that spell's converted mana cost.
8/8
This was a lot to make it seem remotely fair, but I love the idea of the card so I'd like to maintain the framework if possible. Maybe it just exiles three cards from each on cast?
Ovirna, Mirror of Ages4UG
Legendary Creature - Human Wizard
Untap all lands and creatures you control during each other player's untap step.
Treat each upkeep as if it is also your upkeep. (Abilities you control that trigger during your upkeep trigger.)
3/3
This comes my not-so-secret passion and desire to build around Paradox Haze
Dexyl, the Great BountyBB
Legendary Creature - Demon
If a source you control would cause ~ to die, draw a card.
If a source an opponent controls would cause ~ to die, that source's controller draws two cards and loses 2 life.
3/2
As a disclaimer, I'm aware that this content has a large focus on card creation and could very well be misplaced in the forums. I felt that the intended audience was in this sub-forum and would imagine that it would serve best here, but if it needs to be moved that is understandable.
I wanted to see if there was interest in maintaining a growing list of custom commanders, created and honed by us as a community to fill the gaps we seem to desire. I feel like we have enough seasoned players here that know the card-base well enough to look at a custom card, evaluate it, and help temper it into something fair for use.
I believe this process should be as focused as possible. Toward that, in presenting a card, it would be nice to know the audience of the card. Is it intended for a highly competitive meta, or is it aimed more at a 75% scene? There is always some slight uproar that we don't have this commander or that, and in the spirit of EDH I think we could take the problem into our own hands.
I would not expect this to be another thread in which we discuss whether it's okay to use a custom commander. I would say it's established here that we accept the use of custom commanders, and are instead invested in making sure those commanders aren't obscenely powered or egregiously ill-designed.
For now, I'll leave a list (to be grown) of commanders I feel like we could create:
- A satisfying werewolf
- A Boros commander that doesn't care about combat
- A Simic commander that doesn't just feel like combo or goodstuff
- An Izzet artifact legend
- Four color-legends
- An interesting Mardu legend
- A redesign of the original Elder Dragons
I'll also leave a commander I could see being interested in, with hopes that it doesn't wind up misplacing this thread. I have wanted to try out a group-hug build for a while, and I think Simic fits the bill well, but I'm not satisfied with the current legends available (likely a recurring issue for several of us).
Eraya, Sirewood Elder1GU Legendary Creature - Treefolk Wizard
At the beginning of your upkeep, each player reveals the top card of their library. Each player that revealed a land card puts it onto the battlefield. Each player that didn't draws a card.
1/4
@arrogantAxolotl
I think the list is pretty doable as an aggressive pseudo-zombie tribal thing. Even if you only have maybe 1-4 four or five drops (I'm thinking mostly Gravepact or Dictate of Erebos), there are enough cards at low cost (including the new Cryptbreaker) that do so much to handle problems through the game. I like the idea a lot.
You know this isn't how EV or gambling works right? I get that people are upset that the value gets soaked up by a few cards but yeah, it hasn't been a good idea to crack packs for value in a long time. If you're going to draft, you're paying to draft and the additional expense is an experiential cost. You're subsidizing the cost of paying people to design a draft environment, not to shove every card you want into packs so you can conveniently crack the things you need.
I understand your frustration. I don't need Fortune Thief either. On the other hand, if I had the monumental task of designing a set meant to encapsulate the whole of Magic's history in which I wasn't allowed to pick cards from the Reserved List, and had to maintain pretty strict boundaries for numbers of rares/mythics/uncommons, and had to create an interesting limited environment, AND had to cater to a secondary market being mindful not to crash anything entirely then yeah I might throw in Fortune Thief. It's a very rare effect in MtG that is a callback to a well-appreciated card from Magic's History. Moreover, it is a very interesting effect in limited. No it's not a huge hit in terms of value, but it ticks off all the other boxes pretty well.
I think it's important we remember that the variety of employees at Wizards do not solely function to entertain our individual interests. They have a very specific task, and it comes with not pleasing everyone all the time. Are you upset that Rishadan Port is in the set, or are you happy for it? If so, may I ask what red rare you would put in place of Fortune Thief that also speaks to Magic's history in the same way, has a hugely interesting effect on limited, and suddenly fills your pockets as you hope? The only candidate that immediately pops to my mind is Stigma Lasher which really only costs anything because it's not awful and it's scarce.
I don't mean to offend or attack you personally, I just notice a lot of these posts that ignore the idea of EV and what a huge task this actually was to craft this set. It's the internet, use it how you will, but these people work to make a game for everyone, not just you, not just me, not just all of MTGS, and the biting message to an individual in particular feels very unnecessary.
It doesn't help that we have forums like these where people attempt to collect all the infinite combos in single threads as a tool for people to use just so they don't have to think of the synergies themselves. While I appreciate the strength of the information age, it also accelerates the wear on these sorts of situations. I get it, you've just started playing and you're fascinated with Niv-Mizzet/Mindmoil, Trikaeus, etc. I'd just rather not wait for you to get to a point (if you will at all) where you're bored by these plays at all.
Again, just my opinion. If I wanted to watch reruns of the same combos, I can just watch legacy dredge do it's business.
1. Mirage Mirror
2. Cauldron of Souls
3. Cloudstone Curio
4. Trading Post
5. Scarecrone
Creatures
1. Puppeteer Clique
2. Seedborn Muse
3. Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4. Riku of Two Reflections
5. Stonecloaker
Enchantments
1. Pernicious Deed
2. Waste Not
3. Aluren
4. Phyrexian Reclamation
5. Perplexing Chimera (maybe this is cheating)
Sorceries
1. Living Death
2. Wheel of Fortune
3. Splendid Reclamation
4. Heat Shimmer
5. Toxic Deluge
Instants
1. Reiterate
2. Wild Ricochet
3. Imp's Mischief
4. Noxious Revival
5. Tainted Strike
Planeswalkers
1. Liliana of the Veil
2. Sarkhan Vol
3. Garruk, Primal Hunter
4. Venser, the Sojourner
5. Tezzeret the Seeker
Lands
1. Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2. Winding Canyons
3. Terrain Generator
4. Dust Bowl
5. Emeria, the Sky Ruin
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
Archangel Avacyn
Westvale Abbey
Elbrus, the Binding Blade
Delver of Secrets
Cryptolith Fragment
Ludevic's Test Subject
Mayor of Avabruck
Startled Awake
Ulrich of the Krallenhorde
Accursed Witch
Autumnal Gloom
Bloodline Keeper
Gisela, the Broken Blade
Bruna, the Fading Light
The price points are all over the place, includes some favorites and samples a wide variety of transformations.
This reads like an extremely toxic approach to the format and your meta (bolded for emphasis). What I gather from your post is that you don't like playing aggro, group hug, or chaos decks. Moreover, it appears you adamantly dislike playing with others who use those approaches, but correct me if I'm wrong.
We knew 4C commanders were a difficult design space to do well. I'm shocked they went with archetypal models at all; so far I think the 4C commanders we've seen do an amazing job of capturing those archetypes, so kudos to them on that. This isn't the space to discuss the actual viability of archetypes, but I'll reiterate a sentiment heard through these forums and in this sub-forum frequently. There's a good chance these products aren't made with you in mind, and there's an even better chance that your definition of EDH and fun isn't ubiquitous. I appreciate your opinion, but I'd really like to see these threads discuss the strengths of these cards rather than their viability in what sounds like (and again I could be wrong) an extremely tailored and competitive meta.
As for what we've seen, it has been a coaster for me. I think Atraxa is the most interesting we've seen in that she has so many builds with her.
I think the Kings follow suit because while they seem to scream Group Hug, but I hear gentle whispers of Stax and control that I'm eager to see.
I'm incredibly impressed with the design on Saskia because as an ETB effect, she does so much as far as leading aggro and really getting across a whole table. I run an Athreos aggro weenie deck and I think she'd easily give him a run for his money.
I don't believe we've seen the ogre formally so I'll omit him for now. So lastly for me is Breya. She's incredibly versatile in build and power, but she's easily the laziest possible design we've seen on any 4C to date (not a big sample but still). Atraxa is similarly offensive but she has a certain elegance and simplicity that I admire. Breya feels like they went through 20 drafts of the card and finally decided that it didn't matter if it was good enough anymore. I loathe the idea of playing across from her because she essentially does whatever she wants, but most of it is done poorly and through a bunch of clunky interactions that will involve a ton of triggers that players will undoubtedly flounder on. If you want a general that does a lot of things, there are whole lists out there that won't revolve around a creature with such a superfluous amount of text. That said, her art is beautiful, and I'd almost run her for that.
Partner is a brilliant mechanic. I can see immediately why they were a bit shy with the generals in terms of creativity and power. Something boring like Bruse Tarl is hugely dangerous as a partner and on his own. None of these are overtly powerful, and none of them are overtly super interesting likely because the task of balancing 15 super interesting and complicated generals that lead to 105 (I think this is the right number) of possible decks and play styles is a ludicrous expectation. I would have loved to see more interesting commanders, especially in place of Akiri or Ishai, but I didn't expect Partner to be remotely possible, and having seen it, I wouldn't dream that Wizards would hand off 15 ridiculous generals to the general public that this product is aimed at. I think of lot of these will prove their mettle over time, including the Boros ones as boring as they may be. I can't wait to see how people begin to brew with them. There's so much to do.
As for the other stuff we've seen, I'm disgustingly impressed. Save for the undaunted wrath, I can't think of any of the cards I don't want to play or see in a match soon. I'm not looking forward to dealing with slews of that Stonehoof Centaur, and I wish more people at Wizards would come to appreciate EDH as more than just Battlecruiser magic where the goal is always something like Avacyn or Iona.
This actually feels remarkably weak. For 6 mana this tutors something far more horribly than Kuldotha Forgemaster. I might suggest a power up:
Urza, Student Artificer 2UR
Legendary Creature - Human Artificer
~ enters the battlefield with X charge counters, where X is the number of artifacts you control.
Whenever you cast an artifact spell, put a charge counter on ~.
T, Remove all charge counters from ~: Search your library for an artifact with converted mana cost equal to the number of counters removed this way, reveal it and put it into your hand. Shuffle your library afterward.
2/4
It's wordy, but more powerful and definitely just as vulnerable. I could see it being pushed to 3UR if it's too good at 4.
There's a lot to still go from here, but I think the idea of the card is nice. It reminds me a lot of the masters from Invasion. My biggest issues here are that the counter is a hard one, and that the middle ability is technically a black one. Maybe something more like
Vina, Circu's Disciple 1UB
Legendary Creature - Vedalken Wizard
1UU, t: Counter target spell. It's controller draws a card.
1UB, t: Players cannot search their libraries this turn.
1BB, t: Target player discards a card. Draw a card.
1/2
I forgot how much I enjoyed that middle effect, and how it somehow ended up on a Dimir card.
I like this as a cast trigger but I'll agree this doesn't feel red anymore. I'd love it as a sultai commander though. If you will:
Ukir, Shattered Mirror 1UBG
Legendary Creature - Wizard Nightmare
When you cast Ukir , the reflexion, you may sacrifice any number of non-token creatures. For each creature sacrificed this way , create a token that's a copy of that creature. Those tokens are black Horrors in addition to their colors and creature types.
For every reflection, there's a surface that can be broken.
2/2
I think these two ideas are strikingly different. The first plays on Muraganda Petroglyphs, which I don't mind at all. I don't think you need the creature type addition.
Legion, Call of the Horde
Legendary Creature - Avatar
~ gets +5/+5 and has indestructible as long as you control five creatures with no abilities.
2G, t: Create a creature that's a copy of target creature with no abilities.
2/2
The second creation, the changeling legend is probably one of my favorites in this thread. I don't see the white in it's flavor, but I don't want it to be mono-red (I mean I want it to be 5-color...). Changing other creatures seem to be in blue's pie during Lorwyn, with only a tinge in white (although I think you're getting the colors from Shields of Velis Vel/Blades of Velis Vel.) I think we can give it a bit more white.
Din of Velis Vel 2WR
Legendary Creature - Shapeshifter
Changeling
Other creatures you control have changeling.
W: Target creature you control gains a keyword of your choice from among creatures you control.
Whenever a creature enters the battlefield under an opponent's control, create a token copy of it. Exile that token at the beginning of your next end step.
3/3
I love this card because it reminds me of how much I've always wanted Tamanoa to be a general, and about how often I've thought of building around Searing Meditation. I would change nothing about this card, and I hope to see something like it in print soon.
I hadn't even thought about hidden zones, my biggest fear was the interaction this has with blink. Deadeye Navigator is already filthy without a general tailor-made for it (although I suppose Zegana probably does at least as well). I just imagine that with every blink you get two triggers, it feels pretty filthy.
I actually really like the design for it's nostalgia, and it's potential power. I think the comments about it's upkeep cost have their merit, but I don't mind seeing something like this (especially for a being that's supposed to be so old and powerful). Maybe lower the initial cost and keep the upkeep? 5 for a 6/6 with that upkeep still seems pretty dangerous.
Also, I'd like to start updating the original post. If you've posted an idea that's received commentary and you like where it's ended up, let me know and I'll put it up as finished and ready for trial.
In regards to the two punishment style Boros legends from @Deep_Woods; I love them, and if you don't mind I'll zhuzh them up a bit and add them to the original posting.
I like the idea of of where we ended with the legendary Magpie, but I hate the idea of having so many different types of tokens represented on one card since they came so flavorfully from different places. Gold seems pretty ubiquitous but Clues and Thopters feel centric to specific planes. I'm mostly put off by the flavor behind Clues here, it would make more sense to me if the creature generated some sort of Bauble or Chest to be unlocked. I'll put it in the OP but I'd like to continue making stabs at it.
For now, I'll throw down some commentary on the nephilim and I'll come back later for the rest:
I find it interesting that you settled for a morphling-esque card in the quartet outside of blue. As it is, it feels boring since it's such a simple morphling. It's obviously not unfair as a result, but I'd like to think we can have weirder effects on Nephilim.
Glutton-Gut Nephilim WRGB
Legendary Creature - Nephilim
3, Sacrifice a nonland permanent: Each opponent sacrifices a permanent that shares a type with the card you sacrificed. Put a +1/+1 counter on ~ for each permanent sacrificed this way.
4/4
I strongly dislike the protection from black here, until I see it's interaction with the second ability. I actually want to make this stronger and have an effect last until end of game (although I know memory issues will arise). Also, this does not really feel red or green.
Luster-Scale Nephilim WURG
Legendary Creature - Nephilim
Protection from black
1, Discard a card, Put a +1/+1 counter on ~: Change the text of each spell and each permanent by replacing all instances of one color word with another. (This does not end at end of turn.)
3/3
It's still not very r/g but I love the idea of adding a counter as a cost, like loyalty on a planeswalker. It's still limited by cards in hand, but it feels very nasty.
This doesn't combo with things the same way Mikaeus does, and I like the symmetry of the latter effect given how prevalent +1/+1 counters can be, but overall Shadow feels very bland. I think I would honestly prefer something more asymmetric that really tilted the field.
Realm-Skipper Nephilim WUBG
Legendary Creature - Nephilim
Creatures you control cannot be blocked and cannot block.
Whenever a creature deals combat damage to a player, put a +1/+1 counter on it.
Whenever a creature with a +1/+1 counter on it deals combat damage to an opponent, it's controller draws a card.
3/3
It's very different, but has a similar effect to the board state I believe. It makes you vulnerable, but the last ability, a la Edric, means that at some point cannons should be pointed away from you.
I love this design, but since you only get the benefit on your turn after passing, I could see upping the end of turn ability to two or even three cards a player. This doesn't particularly feel red aside from the random aspect, but I love the effect and would actually want to play this.
I'm going to assume this to be a 4/4 because it doesn't feel overpowered given how obnoxious 4C creatures are. I think the more interesting effect is the latter of the two because it creates a difficult game-state for yourself. Honestly, very little of this feeds blue or red, and it's pushing it to call it green. I like the second effect so much though that I'm tempted to keep it and refocus a second ability to better reflect the r/u/g sides:
Grief-Bloom Nephilim UBRG
Legendary Creature - Nephilim
If you would draw a card, each opponent discards a card.
Whenever an opponent discards a creature card, create a 1/1 green Saproling.
Whenever an opponent discards a land card, ~ deals 2 damage to them.
Whenever an opponent discards an instant or sorcery card, put the top card of your library into your hand.
3/3
Now it's super wordy, but I also have a huge crush on Waste Not, so I'm all for it.
Great work so far, I'll be back later
That being said, I do like your final design leagues more than my initial toss so I'll add it to my original post. My intent is to keep a log of commanders we design, in their most current and "fair" iteration, much akin to the other running posts that inhabit this sub-forum. In the mean time, I'll throw a few more up here that I've been interested in.
Fier, Gnashing Jaws 3RG
Legendary Creature - Spirit Beast
When ~ attacks, until end of turn each creature you control has base power equal to the highest power among creatures you control.
When an attacking creature you control dies, put X +1/+1 counters on target creature, where X is the power of the creature that died.
4/2
The Pale Moon Council 2
Legendary Creature - Knight
Your opponents cannot play nonbasic lands.
Discard a card: Exile ~. Return it to the battlefield under its owner's control at the end of turn. Any player may activate this ability.
4/4
I think this is justifiable in both white and red to the point that hybrid is acceptable.
Vella, Skipwing Archmage UUU
Legendary Creature - Faerie Spellshaper
Flying
U, Discard a card, T: Untap each other permanent you control. Activate this ability only during another player's turn.
1/3
Joragal, The Reaching Void 10
Legendary Creature - Eldrazi
When you cast ~, each player chooses one card in their hand and exiles the rest.
Each player may pay 1 and 1 life instead of any one colored mana when casting a spell.
You may cast cards from any player's exile. If you do, you lose life equal to that spell's converted mana cost.
8/8
This was a lot to make it seem remotely fair, but I love the idea of the card so I'd like to maintain the framework if possible. Maybe it just exiles three cards from each on cast?
Ovirna, Mirror of Ages 4UG
Legendary Creature - Human Wizard
Untap all lands and creatures you control during each other player's untap step.
Treat each upkeep as if it is also your upkeep. (Abilities you control that trigger during your upkeep trigger.)
3/3
This comes my not-so-secret passion and desire to build around Paradox Haze
Dexyl, the Great Bounty BB
Legendary Creature - Demon
If a source you control would cause ~ to die, draw a card.
If a source an opponent controls would cause ~ to die, that source's controller draws two cards and loses 2 life.
3/2
I wanted to see if there was interest in maintaining a growing list of custom commanders, created and honed by us as a community to fill the gaps we seem to desire. I feel like we have enough seasoned players here that know the card-base well enough to look at a custom card, evaluate it, and help temper it into something fair for use.
I believe this process should be as focused as possible. Toward that, in presenting a card, it would be nice to know the audience of the card. Is it intended for a highly competitive meta, or is it aimed more at a 75% scene? There is always some slight uproar that we don't have this commander or that, and in the spirit of EDH I think we could take the problem into our own hands.
I would not expect this to be another thread in which we discuss whether it's okay to use a custom commander. I would say it's established here that we accept the use of custom commanders, and are instead invested in making sure those commanders aren't obscenely powered or egregiously ill-designed.
For now, I'll leave a list (to be grown) of commanders I feel like we could create:
- A satisfying werewolf
- A Boros commander that doesn't care about combat
- A Simic commander that doesn't just feel like combo or goodstuff
- An Izzet artifact legend
- Four color-legends
- An interesting Mardu legend
- A redesign of the original Elder Dragons
I'll also leave a commander I could see being interested in, with hopes that it doesn't wind up misplacing this thread. I have wanted to try out a group-hug build for a while, and I think Simic fits the bill well, but I'm not satisfied with the current legends available (likely a recurring issue for several of us).
Eraya, Sirewood Elder 1GU
Legendary Creature - Treefolk Wizard
At the beginning of your upkeep, each player reveals the top card of their library. Each player that revealed a land card puts it onto the battlefield. Each player that didn't draws a card.
1/4
@arrogantAxolotl
Chromatic Lantern
Oath of Nissa
Command Tower
Rupture Spire
Transguild Promenade
Mana Confluence
Reflecting Pool
Darksteel Ingot
Commander's Sphere
Vivid Crag etc.
Add in a hint of green ramp, like Farseek, and you're pretty good to go.
That said, I'd prefer 5C to 3C anyway because most of the PW wins in 3C will be the same every time and I value variety very heavily in my decks.