A 3/3 flier for 4 alone I don't think seems suboptimal. I can't explain how helpful the card is too against clearing a board of weenies, jittes, snakes and such. The kirin is simply too central to the deck, and without it, it basically become WW Legends.
I don't know how to format the sideboard but:
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Hand of Honor
2 Manriki-Gusari
1 Pithing Needle
1 Otherworldy Journey
1 Shining Shoal
1 Celestial Kirin
1 Hokori
The deck seems to work VERY well thus far. I think Deck-X is a good idea, but it just can't keep up with Black Hand or real WW, even though it demolishes Gifts. Here are some points on the deck:
- I stripped the blue from Deck-X and added some speed to the deck, and centered the SB for fighting against WW and Black Hand. Celestial Kirin in particular is awesome against both.
- Celestial Kirin with Shining Shoal... I can destroy anything with CMC 2+ as long as I have the mana, or the pitch card.
- Hokori and the paddle work together nicely.
- Hand of Honor is one of the things I think Deck-X needed to fight Black Hand decently. (Kirin being the other, Ghostly Prison being the final piece)
- My opinion on Otherwordly Journey vs Blessed Breath: This deck NEEDS OJ, with the Kirin in play, you'll be praying to draw the journey sometimes against WW or Black Hand.
- Banner vs Day: I like the banner being cheaper to cast, therfore being able to throw it at the paddle. I have found a lot of hte time the deck hits 3 and can't get a fourth land, but with a paddle and especially 2-3 legendary things in play, that's fine.
The only problems I have noticed thus far:
- I get mana swamped... wtf. I think it's just weird shuffling lately though.
- Celestial Kirn and Hokori aren't very good friends. Luckily after sideboarding I usually take one out, Hokori goes out against WW, Black Hand, and red aggro sometimes, Kirin goes out against arcane, and Gifts. The problem is that you HAVE to play the Kirin after Hokori, obviously, but then you're often stuck waiting 2-4 turns to untap the lands.
- Sometimes the deck gets really confusing, and you have to decide sometimes too early on whether it's better to go aggro WW style, or set up slowly with Hokori/Kirin into hopefully a late game Yosei. This isn't so bad sometimes, but it makes the deck difficult to pilot.
It's too bad I had to go and design this deck way too late in the season, because from my playtesting, it's a powerhouse.
I don't know how to format the sideboard but:
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Hand of Honor
2 Manriki-Gusari
1 Pithing Needle
1 Otherworldy Journey
1 Shining Shoal
1 Celestial Kirin
1 Hokori
The deck seems to work VERY well thus far. I think Deck-X is a good idea, but it just can't keep up with Black Hand or real WW, even though it demolishes Gifts. Here are some points on the deck:
- I stripped the blue from Deck-X and added some speed to the deck, and centered the SB for fighting against WW and Black Hand. Celestial Kirin in particular is awesome against both.
- Celestial Kirin with Shining Shoal... I can destroy anything with CMC 2+ as long as I have the mana, or the pitch card.
- Hokori and the paddle work together nicely.
- Hand of Honor is one of the things I think Deck-X needed to fight Black Hand decently. (Kirin being the other, Ghostly Prison being the final piece)
The only problems I have noticed thus far:
- I get mana swamped... wtf. I think it's just weird shuffling lately though.
- Celestial Kirn and Hokori aren't very good friends. Luckily after sideboarding I usually take one out, Hokori goes out against WW, Black Hand, and red aggro sometimes, Kirin goes out against arcane, and Gifts. The problem is that you HAVE to play the Kirin after Hokori, obviously, but then you're often stuck waiting 2-4 turns to untap the lands.
- Sometimes the deck gets really confusing, and you have to decide sometimes too early on whether it's better to go aggro WW style, or set up slowly with Hokori/Kirin into hopefully a late game Yosei. This isn't so bad sometimes, but it makes the deck difficult to pilot.
It's too bad I had to go and design this deck way too late in the season, because from my playtesting, it's a powerhouse.
In general, how does sideboarding in WW work? I obviously know what to put in, but what do you take out in various games (like mirror matches, snakes, sui black, Gifts, etc...)?
Mainly I wanna know how to board against those 4/5 color monstrosities carrying Meloku, Kodama, and Kokusho, and basically whatever they feel like.
SW4, I don't think the token maker really deserves a place here, either. It's not that bad, but it's not gamebreaking enough to take the spots of a better card.
Yeah, I think it would be decent if you had a lot of things to splice it onto, but I guess I agree, it was simply the only other thing (other than Hand of Honor) I thought might deserve a place in WW.
You think Charge should be played? It just seems really expensive, and if they have a combat trick up there sleeve, and you're down 3-6 lands... I don't see anything it could take the place of except maybe the shoals, but then you'r forcing yourself to play a little more land to get use out of the card.
Oh and Prmise of Bunrei just doesn't work well with Pale Curtain.
Edit:
I took the following deck into a Premier Event on modo recently and placed 13th out of 80 or so:
Yeah the sideboard is total jank, I didn't have the money to get the Hokori's I really want (6 tix each!?)
Some cool things though:
Otherwordly Journey is MUCH better than Blessed breath simply because it saves a creature from Hideous Laughter.
Yosei is nice against a deck running Heartbeat of Spring, or really and Gifts deck because he's almost always able to get out. He also works nice with a Shoal vs North Tree or something.
Also I found the mirror match to be EASY. Kitsune Blademaster may have dissapointed me overall, but he is no friend to opposing WW decks. He stops them in their tracks, and prevents combat damage on a Jitte. Nagao also gave me that extra edge I sometimes needed to overrun the dude.
It was pretty cool having a Blademaster, a Pale Curtain, and a Nagao with Konda's Banner once too against snakes...
I've looked through Saviors pretty thoroughly, and the only two cards I think could make it into the deck are Hand of Honor (in place of Blademaster... only maybe though, depending if WW or Black Creature kill is more prevalent) and that one 1/1 token splice thing (forgot name).
The rest of them seemed a bit too much for the cost.
The sideboard is still under scrutiny, but it looks pretty much like the decklists you posted.
I'm constantly playing this on the tournament practice room in Magic Online, and it's done extremely well. I find that 90% of the decks now are White Weenie or some form of Gifts Ungiven engine.
Some explanations:
I didn't run the Tallowisp engine simply because I don't find it to be good enough. It's too defensive, and the creature enchantments are simply mediocre.
Nagao seems to be forgotten anymore, as people think it's too slow, but often times if I untpap with Nago its only a turn or two before the game's over. Also, he survives Hideous Laughter, gives a bonus to about half the creatures in the deck, and most importantly, he makes a great pitch card to Shining Shoal. He's also pretty good in the mirror match when you need a small bost to overcome the other creatues, and he's very good late game, which the deck seems to usually have a problem with.
Kitsune Bladmaster may seem like a funny choice, but he's GREAT against the mirror, as he holds down most of their creatures, and he stops a Jitte equipped creature from getting counters. He's also not a bad toss to the Shoal, and he works with Nagao.
Yosei is simply a good card late game, and if I know they're playing Heartbeat then I sideboard in two more.
Konda's Banner often just works as a sort of Glorious Anthem, and if it get's on Nagao or Golden Tail, it works wonders.
Anyways, I've tested a LOT of versions of WW now, and I find this one to be the best I've gotten so far... please comment or ask any questions, I'll try to get the sideboard up in a bit.
I like the new version a lot. I assume your testing justified the Jets and the Kami. What should we run in the 'board? Shatters? Boils? Maybe Wraths or Ghostly Prison to deal with weenies?
I do too, I think this build has the potential to be a real competitive game. (which makes me giddy thinking I designed a true deck that could be part of today's metagame).
Uhm in dealing with Weenie... don't worry about it, this deck manhandles weenie. The bushido puts each creature a step above the weenies, and Kitsune Blademaster basically holds down every single non-flier weenie has. (And he stops Jittes!) RW Samurai was orignally built to be a mid-sized weenie deck, as people at my local FNM played a lot of WW.
In this build, there is no Shining Shoal, so Glacial Ray loses all of it's effectiveness. I find the evasion for the Kami really valuable as well, and truthfully, I just don't like Savannah Lions... never have. This deck isn't as aggressive as WW, and likes an extra turn to really set up.
Boils should DEFINITELY be in the sideboard, as it basically makes it a one sided Thoughts of Ruin against MUC. Shatter is nice too. Actually I think the sideboard I posted for the earlier deck still stands well.
Yeah as soon as I looked at my Thoughts of Ruin based build, I realised how much downhill the Shoal had gone... Remember though, this takes the deck in a different direction, and is a different monster than the original posted decklist.
There, I think that flows quite nicely. The AEther vial is great for this deck, as well. One thing I REALLY like about this current build is the fact that it finall handles MUC very well, as it can play just like WW now if it needs to, with slightly larger creatures. I dubbed this version the Samuweenie deck, as opposed to straight RW Samurai.
I'm just not sure if Thoughts of Ruin really makes this deck a whole lot better, as playing that kills the Shoals, and Nagao... Before if Nagao was able to hit the board and untap, it was all over, and many, many games would swing favour in light of a single Shoal. I have to admit though, if there is one deck that finds a good medium between playing a lot of cards, and holding enough in hand, this deck does it. It drops a lot in the first three turns, but can hold onto the extra land, extra Jittes, Nagaos, Magma Jets, Vials, and such if need be.
The mana curve on both decks is absolutely beautiful though.
Oh and in case anyone hasn't noticed yet, Thoughts of Ruin + AEther Vial = Awesome + 2
I asked the mod about putting it in competitive, and he said he doesn't think it should be there... so it's here (for now)
This deck is aggressive enough where it doesn't hurt too much from the city. I didn't think about the bridge though, I'll have to see how well it works in the deck.
And yeah, when I get a chance to playtest soon, I'll be focusing on Glacial Ray/Magma Jet especially. Thinking about it, Jet may be better I suppose.
Also looking at the upcoming cards, that red armegeddon card might not be bad in this deck, if I dropped some Nagao and Fumiko... I think Houndmaster and Blademaster are just plain out good in t2 right now, as the Blademaster is a great defencive card against any aggressive deck, and Houndmaster being super aggressive himself. (On top of that Pale Curtain is simply awesome)... maybe if I mix it up a little, it could become... Samuweenie...
Something like:
What works best between Suntail Hawk/Lantern Kami/Savannah Lions/Devoted Retainer you think? I know it seems Devoted Retainer may seem silly to be in there, but in the metagame it's really not bad. It won't die when chumped by an Elder, it stops first turn Firewalkers even if you draw first, and all sorts of stuff. This deck could use evasion though, and it just makes it that much more agressive if I use the Lions...
Of course this is just thinking, I don't even know if this route is better or now.
It seems to me (without playtesting obv) that this deck might run better with the Magma Jets over Glacial Ray. You seem to have little card drawing, and the selection provided by the Jets might be useful. Also, pulling off the Shoal w/ a Ray in hand seems too unlikely to be useful often enough. Finally, have you thought about Swords against mono-blue?
Anyway, this deck looks awesome. Should have been in the constructed thread tho.
Well, admitedly, I have been back and forth between Glacial Ray and Magma Jet, and they are both good, in their own ways. It comes down to having a little better card selection, vs reusable burn, and I find that often I'd rather have a little more burn, than another creature most of the time. I wouldn't have any qualms though with someone deciding to run Magma Jet over the Ray. Also, Shoal w/ Ray is quite common (or Ray/Ray) as the Shoal doesn't tie down any mana resources, it makes it easy to cast.
The Sword of Fire and Ice is nice... but as long as Vedalken Shackles remains non-blue, it's not enough.
Should have been in the constructed thread? I don't understand...
I'll try that, for some reason it never hit me to use it... The big question revolves around whether he holds off Shackles better than Shatter. In a late game match up against, I would say the Kami is more of a dead card than Shatter could possibly be, but if the MUC gets going, pretty much everything would be a dead card. Too bad He can't be Boseiju'd.
Auriok Champion... I don't see it. I tried to avoid a WW or 1WW cc, but Pale Curtain does too many things right, and the Champ... it doesn't seem like enough of anything. In reality, I love SoF&I, but I ended up dropping it from the board, as it ended up almost always being a win more card. (This deck doesn't have all that much trouble chasing down red... the Shoal alone deters direct damage alone)
A few notes on the TnN match up.
I'm starting to think this deck isn't as bad as I thought against TnN. A great thing in the match up is the TnN player doesn't always know what to get...
Angel + Abunas is simply a silly choice. Between the Shoal, Glacial Ray, and the Jitte, taking down the two isn't a problem.
Kiki + Titan was a major headache until I started maindecking the AEther Vials again. This deck really hits a stride at 3 mana, and it isn't too hard to get a City of Brass and a legendary land down, and just drop a land when needed. Kiki is usually dead quickly though.
Trike + Vamp is really funny actually. Either they make a big mistake, or I'm just flat out dead. A lot of TnN players seems to mistake this deck for WW, and I can tell you, it plays a LOT differently. If I have a Jitte with two counters, OR a Glacial Ray it's often doom for the Triskelion. I've also Shoal'd a few after he attacked... this situation is all based on what's in hand.
Kiki + Collosus is probably the best usual choice for the player, but most of the time they opt for Trike + Vamp. The good news is that Kiki is usally taken down pretty quickly. The bad news is Darksteel Colossus. The only time I come out on top here is when they pull this when I have 3-5 creatures already, and I simply race the Colossus. Sometimes this is doable though, with a nice Nagao'd or hard casted Shoal to stave off the Colossus for a turn.
Personally if I played TnN AGAINST this deck, I'd opt for Colossus/Duplicant or Colossus/Titan, if I had cards in hand. Otherwise Kiki/Colossus is best I'd say. (Does anyone ever use Kiki/Duplicant?)
The biggest saving grace against TnN is the fact that they often make the mistake of getting the wrong guys thinking this is WW, and that you are able to take down Trike, Kiki, Abunas, and Angel pretty quickly most of the time. That and Duplicant is a whopping 2/2 most of the time.
In the casual arena, though, this deck really is a lot of fun, and quite a powerhouse. Leave the Fumiko's as it wrecks other decks quite often. Call to Glory is a good surprise card too if your casual metagame is right for it.
Most of the sideboard is anti-MUC, for obvious reason. The shatters, boils, Boseiju, and Kami all go in for the price of Glacial Ray, Nagao, and the Shoals to help this. I really haven't found a non-MUC/TnN deck that gives this deck huge trouble, so it nice to have such a tech'd out side board. Second game against MUC plays so differently than everything else, it's amazing. I tell you what though... they untap with Meloku, it's almost always game over. Your biggest hope is an early Vial, and to constantly make them counter Shatters/Kamis and Boils. It's lovely to see a Boil make it through though.
Devoted Retainer might have to go for Suntail Hawk or Savannah Lions...
And 4x Nagao may look bad, but hitting a 1-2-3-4 creature drop is beautiful, and it's the PERFECT pitch card to the Shoal.
Please keep in mind though this is not WW. The red helps this deck in every way against every deck, and it is not designed to goldfish as quickly as WW. It ends up being WW's worst nightmare, and is just plain out better against every non MUC deck.
Alright, I think I've edited this post like 4 times now.
I originally was going to post this in competitive, but you know... it's intimidating over there sometimes. I'll see if I can get it moved.
I've been playtesting this more than I've ever playtested anything I feel, (the Johnny inside of me got excited to know he built a competitive deck on his own).
A few notes:
As far as the Kamigawa Block build goes, it rocks the house. There isn't much to say, other than I'm surprised to not notive any builds at PT Phili.
It hoses any non-MUC/non-TnN deck as is. It outraces WW, it laughs at Ponza, and it stomps BG (Pale Curtain kills Kokusho dead).
Now, I've started to see how far I can tweek it to go head to head first game against MUC and TnN (outside of Maindecking Sowing Salts/Boil), and it's tough. Once I board things ease up SOO much, that I often end up taking game 2 and 3, but it would be nice to have a chance at game 1 every once in a while, and I've found it basically only involves dropping Fumiko, and 1 Nagao for 4 AEther Vials...
It's funny though, because I keep changing the deck to fight TnN and MUC better, but I always end up going back to the original build because it handles MUC so well post sideboard, and it doesn't do too badly against TnN first game if you play it right. (I've found knowing the exact hand to keep is essential). Aside from dropping a Devoted Retainer for a Isamaru (one of those "why not" things), it's pretty much stayed the same.
First of all, I tried dropping red from the deck, but it loses speed, big time. It also loses that ability to take down guys to clear the way. Getting the red mana is almost never a problem too, so I didn't see a reason to drop it. Also Sowing Salts is my one saving grace against TnN
I'll try Magma Jet over Glacial Ray, but I end up casting Shining Shoal for free so often, that I'm almost always able to splice Glacial Ray two, three times in a game, which can be huge. (It's lovely to save a creature in combat with a shoal, kill the other creature, then splice a ray to kill another creature.)
I NEED shatter to be an instant, and I've never run into an enchantment that causes too much trouble, so it stays.
Truthfully, this deck has no place for mass creature removal. Most of the time I carry the larger amount of creatures, and anytime I'm fighting against a creature heavy deck, the bushido points allow me to come out on top most of the time. I can't tell you how good Kitsune Bladmaster is... he stops a Jitte from going off... holds a Troll Ascetic down... Takes down any Bonesplitter'd dude, without dying... etc...
Okay, I want the AEther Vial in now... it's my only hope against MUC or Ponza sometimes... but what to drop?
Anyone think this deck could be played competively in T2 with (or without?) tweaks? Perhaps Saviors will carry the last bits I need.
Wow... a lot of people in Atlanta... It's a shame the prerelease is when it is, seeing as I'm leaving ATL for Summer break to go to South Carolina (where there is no prerelease? Blasphemy!)
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Eight-And-A-Half-Tails
3 Celestial Kirin
3 Hokori, Dust Drinker
3 Yosei, the Morning Star
1 Sensei Golden Tail
1 Konda's Banner
3 Otherwordly Journey
2 Shining Shoal
4 Honor-Worn Shaku
2 Pithing Needle
1 Eiganjo Castle
I don't know how to format the sideboard but:
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Hand of Honor
2 Manriki-Gusari
1 Pithing Needle
1 Otherworldy Journey
1 Shining Shoal
1 Celestial Kirin
1 Hokori
The deck seems to work VERY well thus far. I think Deck-X is a good idea, but it just can't keep up with Black Hand or real WW, even though it demolishes Gifts. Here are some points on the deck:
- I stripped the blue from Deck-X and added some speed to the deck, and centered the SB for fighting against WW and Black Hand. Celestial Kirin in particular is awesome against both.
- Celestial Kirin with Shining Shoal... I can destroy anything with CMC 2+ as long as I have the mana, or the pitch card.
- Hokori and the paddle work together nicely.
- Hand of Honor is one of the things I think Deck-X needed to fight Black Hand decently. (Kirin being the other, Ghostly Prison being the final piece)
- My opinion on Otherwordly Journey vs Blessed Breath: This deck NEEDS OJ, with the Kirin in play, you'll be praying to draw the journey sometimes against WW or Black Hand.
- Banner vs Day: I like the banner being cheaper to cast, therfore being able to throw it at the paddle. I have found a lot of hte time the deck hits 3 and can't get a fourth land, but with a paddle and especially 2-3 legendary things in play, that's fine.
The only problems I have noticed thus far:
- I get mana swamped... wtf. I think it's just weird shuffling lately though.
- Celestial Kirn and Hokori aren't very good friends. Luckily after sideboarding I usually take one out, Hokori goes out against WW, Black Hand, and red aggro sometimes, Kirin goes out against arcane, and Gifts. The problem is that you HAVE to play the Kirin after Hokori, obviously, but then you're often stuck waiting 2-4 turns to untap the lands.
- Sometimes the deck gets really confusing, and you have to decide sometimes too early on whether it's better to go aggro WW style, or set up slowly with Hokori/Kirin into hopefully a late game Yosei. This isn't so bad sometimes, but it makes the deck difficult to pilot.
It's too bad I had to go and design this deck way too late in the season, because from my playtesting, it's a powerhouse.
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Eight-And-A-Half-Tails
3 Celestial Kirin
3 Hokori, Dust Drinker
3 Yosei, the Morning Star
1 Sensei Golden Tail
1 Konda's Banner
3 Otherwordly Journey
2 Shining Shoal
4 Honor-Worn Shaku
2 Pithing Needle
1 Eiganjo Castle
I don't know how to format the sideboard but:
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Hand of Honor
2 Manriki-Gusari
1 Pithing Needle
1 Otherworldy Journey
1 Shining Shoal
1 Celestial Kirin
1 Hokori
The deck seems to work VERY well thus far. I think Deck-X is a good idea, but it just can't keep up with Black Hand or real WW, even though it demolishes Gifts. Here are some points on the deck:
- I stripped the blue from Deck-X and added some speed to the deck, and centered the SB for fighting against WW and Black Hand. Celestial Kirin in particular is awesome against both.
- Celestial Kirin with Shining Shoal... I can destroy anything with CMC 2+ as long as I have the mana, or the pitch card.
- Hokori and the paddle work together nicely.
- Hand of Honor is one of the things I think Deck-X needed to fight Black Hand decently. (Kirin being the other, Ghostly Prison being the final piece)
The only problems I have noticed thus far:
- I get mana swamped... wtf. I think it's just weird shuffling lately though.
- Celestial Kirn and Hokori aren't very good friends. Luckily after sideboarding I usually take one out, Hokori goes out against WW, Black Hand, and red aggro sometimes, Kirin goes out against arcane, and Gifts. The problem is that you HAVE to play the Kirin after Hokori, obviously, but then you're often stuck waiting 2-4 turns to untap the lands.
- Sometimes the deck gets really confusing, and you have to decide sometimes too early on whether it's better to go aggro WW style, or set up slowly with Hokori/Kirin into hopefully a late game Yosei. This isn't so bad sometimes, but it makes the deck difficult to pilot.
It's too bad I had to go and design this deck way too late in the season, because from my playtesting, it's a powerhouse.
Mainly I wanna know how to board against those 4/5 color monstrosities carrying Meloku, Kodama, and Kokusho, and basically whatever they feel like.
Yeah, I think it would be decent if you had a lot of things to splice it onto, but I guess I agree, it was simply the only other thing (other than Hand of Honor) I thought might deserve a place in WW.
You think Charge should be played? It just seems really expensive, and if they have a combat trick up there sleeve, and you're down 3-6 lands... I don't see anything it could take the place of except maybe the shoals, but then you'r forcing yourself to play a little more land to get use out of the card.
Oh and Prmise of Bunrei just doesn't work well with Pale Curtain.
Edit:
I took the following deck into a Premier Event on modo recently and placed 13th out of 80 or so:
3x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4x Lantern Kami
4x Samurai of the Pale Curtain
2x Eight-and-a-half-Tails
1x Sensei Golden Tail
4x Kitsune Blademaster
4x Nagao, Bound by Honor
1x Yosei, the Morning Star
4x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Otherworldly Journey
1x Konda's Banner
22x Plains
1x Eiganjo Castler
4x Blessed Breath
4x Kami of Ancient Law
1x Tenza, Godo's Maul
4x Terashi's Grasp
2x Yosei, the Morning Star
Yeah the sideboard is total jank, I didn't have the money to get the Hokori's I really want (6 tix each!?)
Some cool things though:
Otherwordly Journey is MUCH better than Blessed breath simply because it saves a creature from Hideous Laughter.
Yosei is nice against a deck running Heartbeat of Spring, or really and Gifts deck because he's almost always able to get out. He also works nice with a Shoal vs North Tree or something.
Also I found the mirror match to be EASY. Kitsune Blademaster may have dissapointed me overall, but he is no friend to opposing WW decks. He stops them in their tracks, and prevents combat damage on a Jitte. Nagao also gave me that extra edge I sometimes needed to overrun the dude.
It was pretty cool having a Blademaster, a Pale Curtain, and a Nagao with Konda's Banner once too against snakes...
The rest of them seemed a bit too much for the cost.
3x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4x Lantern Kami
4x Samurai of the Pale Curtain
2x Eight-and-a-half Tails
1x Sensei Golden Tail
4x Kitsune Blademaster
4x Nagao, Bound by Honor
1x Yosei, the Morning Star
4x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Blessed Breath
1x Konda's Banner
22x Plains
1x Eiganjo Castler
The sideboard is still under scrutiny, but it looks pretty much like the decklists you posted.
I'm constantly playing this on the tournament practice room in Magic Online, and it's done extremely well. I find that 90% of the decks now are White Weenie or some form of Gifts Ungiven engine.
Some explanations:
I didn't run the Tallowisp engine simply because I don't find it to be good enough. It's too defensive, and the creature enchantments are simply mediocre.
Nagao seems to be forgotten anymore, as people think it's too slow, but often times if I untpap with Nago its only a turn or two before the game's over. Also, he survives Hideous Laughter, gives a bonus to about half the creatures in the deck, and most importantly, he makes a great pitch card to Shining Shoal. He's also pretty good in the mirror match when you need a small bost to overcome the other creatues, and he's very good late game, which the deck seems to usually have a problem with.
Kitsune Bladmaster may seem like a funny choice, but he's GREAT against the mirror, as he holds down most of their creatures, and he stops a Jitte equipped creature from getting counters. He's also not a bad toss to the Shoal, and he works with Nagao.
Yosei is simply a good card late game, and if I know they're playing Heartbeat then I sideboard in two more.
Konda's Banner often just works as a sort of Glorious Anthem, and if it get's on Nagao or Golden Tail, it works wonders.
Anyways, I've tested a LOT of versions of WW now, and I find this one to be the best I've gotten so far... please comment or ask any questions, I'll try to get the sideboard up in a bit.
I do too, I think this build has the potential to be a real competitive game. (which makes me giddy thinking I designed a true deck that could be part of today's metagame).
Uhm in dealing with Weenie... don't worry about it, this deck manhandles weenie. The bushido puts each creature a step above the weenies, and Kitsune Blademaster basically holds down every single non-flier weenie has. (And he stops Jittes!) RW Samurai was orignally built to be a mid-sized weenie deck, as people at my local FNM played a lot of WW.
In this build, there is no Shining Shoal, so Glacial Ray loses all of it's effectiveness. I find the evasion for the Kami really valuable as well, and truthfully, I just don't like Savannah Lions... never have. This deck isn't as aggressive as WW, and likes an extra turn to really set up.
Boils should DEFINITELY be in the sideboard, as it basically makes it a one sided Thoughts of Ruin against MUC. Shatter is nice too. Actually I think the sideboard I posted for the earlier deck still stands well.
4x Shatter
4x Boil
2x Hearth Kami
2x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
4x Sowing Salts
EDIT
Now that I look at it, the mana curve has dropped a bit, is 24 land still really necessary? Maybe even like 22...
Let me redo it (the Thoughts of Ruin build)
4x Lantern Kami
2x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4x Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4x Kitsune Blademaster
4x Ronin Houndmaster
2x Nagao
Spells:
4x Magma Jet
4x Umezawa's Jitte
4x AEther Vial
4x Thoughts of Ruin
Lands:
10x Plains
8x Mountain
4x City of Brass
1x Red Legendary Land
1x White Legendary Land
There, I think that flows quite nicely. The AEther vial is great for this deck, as well. One thing I REALLY like about this current build is the fact that it finall handles MUC very well, as it can play just like WW now if it needs to, with slightly larger creatures. I dubbed this version the Samuweenie deck, as opposed to straight RW Samurai.
I'm just not sure if Thoughts of Ruin really makes this deck a whole lot better, as playing that kills the Shoals, and Nagao... Before if Nagao was able to hit the board and untap, it was all over, and many, many games would swing favour in light of a single Shoal. I have to admit though, if there is one deck that finds a good medium between playing a lot of cards, and holding enough in hand, this deck does it. It drops a lot in the first three turns, but can hold onto the extra land, extra Jittes, Nagaos, Magma Jets, Vials, and such if need be.
The mana curve on both decks is absolutely beautiful though.
Oh and in case anyone hasn't noticed yet, Thoughts of Ruin + AEther Vial = Awesome + 2
This deck is aggressive enough where it doesn't hurt too much from the city. I didn't think about the bridge though, I'll have to see how well it works in the deck.
And yeah, when I get a chance to playtest soon, I'll be focusing on Glacial Ray/Magma Jet especially. Thinking about it, Jet may be better I suppose.
Also looking at the upcoming cards, that red armegeddon card might not be bad in this deck, if I dropped some Nagao and Fumiko... I think Houndmaster and Blademaster are just plain out good in t2 right now, as the Blademaster is a great defencive card against any aggressive deck, and Houndmaster being super aggressive himself. (On top of that Pale Curtain is simply awesome)... maybe if I mix it up a little, it could become... Samuweenie...
Something like:
3x Suntail Hawk/Lantern Kami/Savannah Lions/Devoted Retainer
1x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4x Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4x Kitsune Blademaster
4x Ronin Houndmaster
Spells:
4x Magma Jet
4x Shining Shoal
4x Umezawa's Jitte
4x AEther Vial
4x Thoughts of Ruin
Lands:
10x Plains
8x Mountain
4x City of Brass
1x Red Legendary Land
1x White Legendary Land
What works best between Suntail Hawk/Lantern Kami/Savannah Lions/Devoted Retainer you think? I know it seems Devoted Retainer may seem silly to be in there, but in the metagame it's really not bad. It won't die when chumped by an Elder, it stops first turn Firewalkers even if you draw first, and all sorts of stuff. This deck could use evasion though, and it just makes it that much more agressive if I use the Lions...
Of course this is just thinking, I don't even know if this route is better or now.
Well, admitedly, I have been back and forth between Glacial Ray and Magma Jet, and they are both good, in their own ways. It comes down to having a little better card selection, vs reusable burn, and I find that often I'd rather have a little more burn, than another creature most of the time. I wouldn't have any qualms though with someone deciding to run Magma Jet over the Ray. Also, Shoal w/ Ray is quite common (or Ray/Ray) as the Shoal doesn't tie down any mana resources, it makes it easy to cast.
The Sword of Fire and Ice is nice... but as long as Vedalken Shackles remains non-blue, it's not enough.
Should have been in the constructed thread? I don't understand...
I'll try that, for some reason it never hit me to use it... The big question revolves around whether he holds off Shackles better than Shatter. In a late game match up against, I would say the Kami is more of a dead card than Shatter could possibly be, but if the MUC gets going, pretty much everything would be a dead card. Too bad He can't be Boseiju'd.
Auriok Champion... I don't see it. I tried to avoid a WW or 1WW cc, but Pale Curtain does too many things right, and the Champ... it doesn't seem like enough of anything. In reality, I love SoF&I, but I ended up dropping it from the board, as it ended up almost always being a win more card. (This deck doesn't have all that much trouble chasing down red... the Shoal alone deters direct damage alone)
A few notes on the TnN match up.
I'm starting to think this deck isn't as bad as I thought against TnN. A great thing in the match up is the TnN player doesn't always know what to get...
Angel + Abunas is simply a silly choice. Between the Shoal, Glacial Ray, and the Jitte, taking down the two isn't a problem.
Kiki + Titan was a major headache until I started maindecking the AEther Vials again. This deck really hits a stride at 3 mana, and it isn't too hard to get a City of Brass and a legendary land down, and just drop a land when needed. Kiki is usually dead quickly though.
Trike + Vamp is really funny actually. Either they make a big mistake, or I'm just flat out dead. A lot of TnN players seems to mistake this deck for WW, and I can tell you, it plays a LOT differently. If I have a Jitte with two counters, OR a Glacial Ray it's often doom for the Triskelion. I've also Shoal'd a few after he attacked... this situation is all based on what's in hand.
Kiki + Collosus is probably the best usual choice for the player, but most of the time they opt for Trike + Vamp. The good news is that Kiki is usally taken down pretty quickly. The bad news is Darksteel Colossus. The only time I come out on top here is when they pull this when I have 3-5 creatures already, and I simply race the Colossus. Sometimes this is doable though, with a nice Nagao'd or hard casted Shoal to stave off the Colossus for a turn.
Personally if I played TnN AGAINST this deck, I'd opt for Colossus/Duplicant or Colossus/Titan, if I had cards in hand. Otherwise Kiki/Colossus is best I'd say. (Does anyone ever use Kiki/Duplicant?)
The biggest saving grace against TnN is the fact that they often make the mistake of getting the wrong guys thinking this is WW, and that you are able to take down Trike, Kiki, Abunas, and Angel pretty quickly most of the time. That and Duplicant is a whopping 2/2 most of the time.
In the casual arena, though, this deck really is a lot of fun, and quite a powerhouse. Leave the Fumiko's as it wrecks other decks quite often. Call to Glory is a good surprise card too if your casual metagame is right for it.
Update deck list for now:
Creatures:
3x Devoted Retainer
1x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4x Samurai of the Pale Curtain
4x Kitsune Blademaster
4x Ronin Houndmaster
4x Nagao, Bound By Honour
Spells:
4x Glacial Ray
4x Shining Shoal
4x Umezawa's Jitte
4x AEther Vial
Lands:
10x Plains
8x Mountain
4x City of Brass
1x Red Legendary Land
1x White Legendary Land
Sideboard:
4x Shatter
4x Boil
2x Hearth Kami
2x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
4x Sowing Salts
Most of the sideboard is anti-MUC, for obvious reason. The shatters, boils, Boseiju, and Kami all go in for the price of Glacial Ray, Nagao, and the Shoals to help this. I really haven't found a non-MUC/TnN deck that gives this deck huge trouble, so it nice to have such a tech'd out side board. Second game against MUC plays so differently than everything else, it's amazing. I tell you what though... they untap with Meloku, it's almost always game over. Your biggest hope is an early Vial, and to constantly make them counter Shatters/Kamis and Boils. It's lovely to see a Boil make it through though.
Devoted Retainer might have to go for Suntail Hawk or Savannah Lions...
And 4x Nagao may look bad, but hitting a 1-2-3-4 creature drop is beautiful, and it's the PERFECT pitch card to the Shoal.
Please keep in mind though this is not WW. The red helps this deck in every way against every deck, and it is not designed to goldfish as quickly as WW. It ends up being WW's worst nightmare, and is just plain out better against every non MUC deck.
Alright, I think I've edited this post like 4 times now.
I originally was going to post this in competitive, but you know... it's intimidating over there sometimes. I'll see if I can get it moved.
I've been playtesting this more than I've ever playtested anything I feel, (the Johnny inside of me got excited to know he built a competitive deck on his own).
A few notes:
As far as the Kamigawa Block build goes, it rocks the house. There isn't much to say, other than I'm surprised to not notive any builds at PT Phili.
It hoses any non-MUC/non-TnN deck as is. It outraces WW, it laughs at Ponza, and it stomps BG (Pale Curtain kills Kokusho dead).
Now, I've started to see how far I can tweek it to go head to head first game against MUC and TnN (outside of Maindecking Sowing Salts/Boil), and it's tough. Once I board things ease up SOO much, that I often end up taking game 2 and 3, but it would be nice to have a chance at game 1 every once in a while, and I've found it basically only involves dropping Fumiko, and 1 Nagao for 4 AEther Vials...
It's funny though, because I keep changing the deck to fight TnN and MUC better, but I always end up going back to the original build because it handles MUC so well post sideboard, and it doesn't do too badly against TnN first game if you play it right. (I've found knowing the exact hand to keep is essential). Aside from dropping a Devoted Retainer for a Isamaru (one of those "why not" things), it's pretty much stayed the same.
First of all, I tried dropping red from the deck, but it loses speed, big time. It also loses that ability to take down guys to clear the way. Getting the red mana is almost never a problem too, so I didn't see a reason to drop it. Also Sowing Salts is my one saving grace against TnN
I'll try Magma Jet over Glacial Ray, but I end up casting Shining Shoal for free so often, that I'm almost always able to splice Glacial Ray two, three times in a game, which can be huge. (It's lovely to save a creature in combat with a shoal, kill the other creature, then splice a ray to kill another creature.)
I NEED shatter to be an instant, and I've never run into an enchantment that causes too much trouble, so it stays.
Truthfully, this deck has no place for mass creature removal. Most of the time I carry the larger amount of creatures, and anytime I'm fighting against a creature heavy deck, the bushido points allow me to come out on top most of the time. I can't tell you how good Kitsune Bladmaster is... he stops a Jitte from going off... holds a Troll Ascetic down... Takes down any Bonesplitter'd dude, without dying... etc...
Okay, I want the AEther Vial in now... it's my only hope against MUC or Ponza sometimes... but what to drop?
Anyone think this deck could be played competively in T2 with (or without?) tweaks? Perhaps Saviors will carry the last bits I need.