Everyone seems to be valuing the cards in this set under the assumption that the clan abilities are always on. While I can see this being true for Raid and Delve and even Outlast (relatively easy to accomplish and mostly terrible without their abilities), Prowess and Ferocious very much feel like icing on the cake mechanics to me. They need to be evaluated as cards assuming that they won't get their added bonus 75% of the time that you play them, and if you get into a situation that you absolutely need the extra effect to have the right impact timing becomes key. You simply will not be able to activate prowess every turn in a limited deck, nor rely on having ferocious up in the early stages of a game unless you have a million alpine grizzlies. But I'd argue that the base power level of these cards is also much higher than the other clans, e.g. most delve cards are completely unplayable without delve, but savage punch is absolutely acceptable without the +2/+2 clause.
Maybe I'm optimistic on both these points, but KTK seems like a really rich and varied limited format to me, with strategies of all types being valid.
But is Temur strong enough to compete with the other clans without Ferocious being on? The other clans seem to do everything Temur does but better.
Hooting Mandrills can be cast early on by Sultai more reliably than Temur. The only way Temur can get its own beasties out is by relying on morph at a 5-mana minimum (I don't count stuff like alpine Grizzly since they're fragile and not true midrange like Hooting Mandrills). Armament Corps can be a 6/6 for 5 at uncommon for Abzan.
If Temur can function awesomely without needing to rely on Ferocious, I would not be so worried; but I'm very skeptical at the moment.
I've been doing some tests with the sealed generator, and even though I know it's not totally accurate, the initial results are still very disheartening.
There are so few good Ferocious cards, and it's a very frustrating balance needing both cards that benefit from Ferocious and cards that ENABLE Ferocious.
Sultai Flayer is a good example of how problematic the Temur mechanic is. I only have 22-23 slots in my deck. I need a good number of those to be 4-power creatures to enable Ferocious. Even though Sultai Flayer is a great card, it's hard adding it into the deck because it means I have that much less of a chance to enable Ferocious. That, or it's eating into card slots which could be taking advantage OF Ferocious.
On top of that, you need cheap creatures that will help you survive long enough to reach the lategame (like walls and such), on top of all your usual spells/combat tricks/removal.
All this adds up to a deck that's surprisingly easy to dismantle since it's sooo reliant on such disparate elements working together.
Temur gets surprisingly few midrange creatures. Your Ferocious enablers are either cheap high power / low toughness guys like Alpine Grizzly (who is difficult to use because of how easy it is to lose your Ferocious benefit with) or 6+ mana guys like Glacial Stalker or Tusked Colossodon. (The former may come out on turn 5, but requires you to spend a turn on the morphed version).
It just feels like the clan with the least amount of identity. Often, I pull up a pool of cards without any good Ferocious cards at all!
Even with the attacking condition, I think that this card is completely bonkers.
True, it's not as on-demand and sweeping as Cyclonic Rift, but when it DOES go off, you are not just returning creatures to your opponent's hand; you are either getting rid of them outright or denying them card draw for however many turns they decide.
And let's face it, you're Blue. People are going to be attacking you, a lot.
Ugh, we covered this in fair detail in the storyline section of the forum; but this was an utterly disappointing way for Elspeth to go. Her death was so pointless because it ran counter to the ordeal Erebos gave her. The point of her ordeal was to show that she was a true hero; who gave up personal happiness to save the world. She didn't quit, she didn't surrender.
Then when Heliod impales her, she throws all that character development out the window and just gives up on life. Nevermind that what Heliod did to her was WRONG, she just accepts her death and welcomes the rest.
The only way they could have made the ending leave a worst taste in my mouth was if they raped Elspeth while Ajani had to watch.
First off there were numerious spelling and grammer errors in the book and the entire thing felt like a detailed summary not an actual book, especially towards the end. 'She saw Ajani leaving' you think he would have at least said something first. I get that they wanted to have a dark ending but it made Elspeth into a laughing stock of a character. She's been manipulated into serving an uncarring evil the types she'd been trying to fight against for so long. The worst part of it all was that she accepted it. That she thought Heliod was still a good guy at the end. It sickens me the extent to which they destoryed her character and humilated her after the end. There was nothing noble in her death. No meaning. No sacrifice. Just the act itself.
Her journey was a failure. As a hero, Elspeth was a failure. As a fanfiction piece...it was alright.
I was actually just gonna mention that myself, too!
What Heliod did to her was WRONG. The only reason she was thankful for her death was that she just GAVE UP. That's not heroic at all! Especially since the whole point of the ordeal Erebos gave her was to show us that Elspeth isn't a quitter!
I'm soooooo frickin' mad and also in shock that they thought this ending was a good idea!
Is it just me, or does the whole Daxos/Returned thing reek of Phenax? Phenax is the god of the returned and Erebos isn't too fond of them. The cruel "monkey's paw wish gone wrong" thing seems a lot more like Phenax's style, as is tricking elspeth into murdering Daxos. Not to mention it was his initially his priest who elspeth spoke to and his priest that drove her through her worst fears (even though it said he was now a priest of Erebos)
This REALLY bugged me as well. I think it was Daxos who said that all Erebos does is lie? What the heck? That's Phenax's schtick! Phenax, as we've learned from flavour text, is all about the 'get-what-you-asked-but-not-the-way-you-expected'. After all the work they've put into making Erebos not your typical scumbag lord of the underworld, they just make him a huge jerk in the books, which disappointed me.
In 'Emonberry Red'; Erebos was depicted in such a cool way. As if he genuinely felt sympathy for these lovers' plight, and is helping them out in the only way he can. None of this deception / selfish nonsense.
But yeah, again, it was just sooooo stupid that Elspeth died for NOTHING. If you're gonna kill off a beloved character, at least have them die doing something awesome. More than Heliod's wound, it was her pact with Erebos that truly 'killed' her, and that was literally for nothing, since Daxos came back as a Returned.
I keep getting disappointed in how Wizards does all this AMAZING world-building, but I feel like they miss opportunities with the stories they tell in these worlds; or how some of the novel lore conflicts with world-building articles on their website.
Ugh, I'm sooooooooooo disappointed that they 'killed' Elspeth! Or rather, I'm more disappointed at the wasted potential of her story.
I guess that with the idea of a Greek tragedy, this shouldn't be wholly unexpected, but I really loved Elspeth as a character. We've waited for SO LONG for her to become a hero instead of not confronting her problems; and just when we think she finally has her moment, the reason she makes the ultimate sacrifice turns out to be for nothing, since Daxos is a returned.
I can accept tragic endings, but this one doesn't feel 'right'; considering all the years and years they took to develop Elspeth's arc. Tragic endings can be cathartic as well, but this one didn't do it for me at all.
I'm holding out hope that she's not gone for good; but even if she isn't, it'll be years before we hear from her again, given how slow Magic is at telling the stories of its various characters. :\
This literally just felt like years of buildup for nothing.
Is this really implying a near-future definite change to our suite of Evergreen mechanics?
I just thought he meant that Evergreen mechanics are always changing; like how they phased out Shroud for Hexproof, or added new Evergreen mechanics like Doublestrike (although that one's been around a while now).
May as well write a transcript since no one else has yet
-----
When does a hero's journey begin?
The moment you step outside the safety of your home?
Or when you realise the fight has just begun?
Is it when you comprehend how small you are compared to the vastness of what threatens to destroy you?
When did you learn that the journey isn't a lonely road,
and you didn't have to face the darkness alone?
Lesser souls lose heart, and lay down their swords.
But a champion risks everything for the greater good.
Take comfort in this: true heroes never die. (Or do they)
The sun rises. The sun sets. But we all have to cross the river some day.
Even her. (Elspeth)
Resign yourself to your glorious fate.
I am coming to claim my prize.
But is Temur strong enough to compete with the other clans without Ferocious being on? The other clans seem to do everything Temur does but better.
Hooting Mandrills can be cast early on by Sultai more reliably than Temur. The only way Temur can get its own beasties out is by relying on morph at a 5-mana minimum (I don't count stuff like alpine Grizzly since they're fragile and not true midrange like Hooting Mandrills). Armament Corps can be a 6/6 for 5 at uncommon for Abzan.
If Temur can function awesomely without needing to rely on Ferocious, I would not be so worried; but I'm very skeptical at the moment.
I've been doing some tests with the sealed generator, and even though I know it's not totally accurate, the initial results are still very disheartening.
There are so few good Ferocious cards, and it's a very frustrating balance needing both cards that benefit from Ferocious and cards that ENABLE Ferocious.
Sultai Flayer is a good example of how problematic the Temur mechanic is. I only have 22-23 slots in my deck. I need a good number of those to be 4-power creatures to enable Ferocious. Even though Sultai Flayer is a great card, it's hard adding it into the deck because it means I have that much less of a chance to enable Ferocious. That, or it's eating into card slots which could be taking advantage OF Ferocious.
On top of that, you need cheap creatures that will help you survive long enough to reach the lategame (like walls and such), on top of all your usual spells/combat tricks/removal.
All this adds up to a deck that's surprisingly easy to dismantle since it's sooo reliant on such disparate elements working together.
Temur gets surprisingly few midrange creatures. Your Ferocious enablers are either cheap high power / low toughness guys like Alpine Grizzly (who is difficult to use because of how easy it is to lose your Ferocious benefit with) or 6+ mana guys like Glacial Stalker or Tusked Colossodon. (The former may come out on turn 5, but requires you to spend a turn on the morphed version).
It just feels like the clan with the least amount of identity. Often, I pull up a pool of cards without any good Ferocious cards at all!
True, it's not as on-demand and sweeping as Cyclonic Rift, but when it DOES go off, you are not just returning creatures to your opponent's hand; you are either getting rid of them outright or denying them card draw for however many turns they decide.
And let's face it, you're Blue. People are going to be attacking you, a lot.
Hahahaa; I've only just had the exact same revelation! I can't believe I never noticed this entire time!
Then when Heliod impales her, she throws all that character development out the window and just gives up on life. Nevermind that what Heliod did to her was WRONG, she just accepts her death and welcomes the rest.
What Heliod did to her was WRONG. The only reason she was thankful for her death was that she just GAVE UP. That's not heroic at all! Especially since the whole point of the ordeal Erebos gave her was to show us that Elspeth isn't a quitter!
I'm soooooo frickin' mad and also in shock that they thought this ending was a good idea!
In 'Emonberry Red'; Erebos was depicted in such a cool way. As if he genuinely felt sympathy for these lovers' plight, and is helping them out in the only way he can. None of this deception / selfish nonsense.
But yeah, again, it was just sooooo stupid that Elspeth died for NOTHING. If you're gonna kill off a beloved character, at least have them die doing something awesome. More than Heliod's wound, it was her pact with Erebos that truly 'killed' her, and that was literally for nothing, since Daxos came back as a Returned.
I keep getting disappointed in how Wizards does all this AMAZING world-building, but I feel like they miss opportunities with the stories they tell in these worlds; or how some of the novel lore conflicts with world-building articles on their website.
Do we know if there's other confirmation of an 'extended trailer' beyond this one person's account of what was said?
I'd really *like* to believe that we're going to get even more trailery goodness
Ugh, I'm sooooooooooo disappointed that they 'killed' Elspeth! Or rather, I'm more disappointed at the wasted potential of her story.
I guess that with the idea of a Greek tragedy, this shouldn't be wholly unexpected, but I really loved Elspeth as a character. We've waited for SO LONG for her to become a hero instead of not confronting her problems; and just when we think she finally has her moment, the reason she makes the ultimate sacrifice turns out to be for nothing, since Daxos is a returned.
I can accept tragic endings, but this one doesn't feel 'right'; considering all the years and years they took to develop Elspeth's arc. Tragic endings can be cathartic as well, but this one didn't do it for me at all.
I'm holding out hope that she's not gone for good; but even if she isn't, it'll be years before we hear from her again, given how slow Magic is at telling the stories of its various characters. :\
This literally just felt like years of buildup for nothing.
I just thought he meant that Evergreen mechanics are always changing; like how they phased out Shroud for Hexproof, or added new Evergreen mechanics like Doublestrike (although that one's been around a while now).
-----
When does a hero's journey begin?
The moment you step outside the safety of your home?
Or when you realise the fight has just begun?
Is it when you comprehend how small you are compared to the vastness of what threatens to destroy you?
When did you learn that the journey isn't a lonely road,
and you didn't have to face the darkness alone?
Lesser souls lose heart, and lay down their swords.
But a champion risks everything for the greater good.
Take comfort in this: true heroes never die. (Or do they)
The sun rises. The sun sets. But we all have to cross the river some day.
Even her. (Elspeth)
Resign yourself to your glorious fate.
I am coming to claim my prize.