MTG Salvation

Yeah I also goldfished with all-in dredge previously and found the same kinda things. Actually casting 2 creatures can be difficult when you aren't drawing cards, and you never hit sideboard cards. Also you are super weak to GY hate.

Though I disagree with Hedron Crab being bad. I run Jund, but have been considering 4 color or trying Sultai just for the crab; it is the most powerful thing you can do on turn 1. Sure its weak and might eat removal, but you could say the same thing about goblin lackey in legacy.. the fact of the matter is that if it sticks, you can get super ahead super fast.

Quote from Muten Yoshi »

I´ve come to the conclusion that this deck plays in jund colors like a bad jund deck. You dredge so less and really cant unleash power. You are only fast if you have the god hand. For me at least, I wont leave the home without a full dredge list with crabs and stuff. (some might call that all in dredge)

If you dredge so much, scavenging ooze becomes a cackewalk, since you are having so MUCH good stuff in the grave. Relic still hurts but thats the nature of the deck.

Recently, Im playing 5c dredge with unburial rites, which is pretty strong and fast, but im not happy with it beeing 5c... I´ll try to figure out, if unburial rites is necesary, and hopefully go 4c with red only for looting.

Furthermore one question: whats actually the best way to get your vengevines back? Im using skaab ruinator + cravecrawler, wich requires 4 mana... theres also rotten rats into 2 crawlers which is 4 mana too... so, is there any faster way if you dont have any creature in hand?

You're playing Jund completely wrong. It's definitely not a "bad jund deck", and "only fast with a god hand". With the list I run, I am consistently unleashing a very large amount of power on turn 2-4. Not an entire army, but VVine + several other creatures on early turns is hard for opponents to stop or race. I've tested against Zoo decks multiple times, and every time they are put on the defensive. That is honestly impressive. It isn't so much as a "bad jund deck" as a "faster yet slightly less consistent zoo deck" (with different matchup skills as well).

The dredge cards are bad, and I don't play a single one. Relic absolutely makes you lose the game when you play the all-in version, and I'd rather not skip draws and miss getting my Varolz or my sideboard cards.

As for getting VVine back... yeah, you hit the nail on the head, you skip so many draws milling your deck that you are left with crap in your hand and it's hard to actually do something unless you can cast a zombie. I run 14 1-drops, and 13 2-drops, so getting VVine back is almost never a problem. Though to properly answer your question, there are a few zombies that can be unearthed (dregscape zombie and rotting rats) but you'd need 2 gravecrawlers in your grave.

Quote from Parasitian »

I am a big fan of grim lavamancer as it gets the last bit of damage through while also serving as removal for little dudes. In conjunction with darkblast, he can do some truly amazing things. Plus, I believe this deck needs at least six one-drops so pulling off early Vines is more plausible. The only thing I don't like about Lavamancer is it can potentially take away from my delve creatures which can be even more concerning if I decide to switch to Gurmag Angler.

I've found Lavamancer to be pretty lackluster in most cases. But I definitely agree with lots of 1-drops... I run 14, and think 6 is far too low. I can hit turn 2/3 Vengevine fairly consistently with my high 1-drop count.

Another question I keep asking myself is whether I should cut some Grisly Salvages to add more Satyr Wayfinders. I undervalued the satyr at first but he can do some real work. The only reason I can consider him over salvage is the fact that he triggers V-Vine while also providing a clock but it is still very relevant.

I've said it before, but I think Wayfinder is the much better card. I started with 4 salvage 2 wayfinder, based on a Pizzap list. One of the first changes I made was 4 salvage 4 wayfinder. Since then I went 3 salvage 4 wayfinder, and now I'm on 2 salvage 4 wayfinder. The default card that gets boarded out on game 2? Salvage. It's an ok card, but it's not nearly as aggressive, and it really only shines late-game when you're falling behind.

Lastly in my mainboard I can't begin to tell you how much work Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth does. I'm surprised so few people play it and when they do it's only a one-of. Our deck can take a lot of damage from shocking itself and Urborg takes away a lot of potential damage. The deck is very black-intensive and hardcasting Bloodghast happens more often than you think. An example of a scenario where Urborg saves us is when you have a hand with a bloodstained mire or wooded foothills, an Urborg, a faithless looting, a Vengevine, one other card (doesn't really matter what it is), and two gravecrawlers. We can turn one fetch for a mountain (for looting) instead of taking 3 from a shock and then follow up with Urborg and two crawlers to recur Vengevine. It comes up more often than you'd think. Another very important interaction is playing fetchlands and tapping them for mana instead of fetching. It can save you life in a race but more importantly it lets you save your fetchlands for when you want to recur Bloodghast. A lot of the time I'll have to crack a fetch for a land when I'd rather save it for bloodghast but Urborg lets us get the mana and still have the opportunity for Bloodghast shenanigans.

I agree that Urborg is an great card, and that life-loss can be really bad against burn. But I can't see myself playing 2 because the second is just so awful. What I do to help counter-act life-loss is run the "fastlands", like Copperline and Blackcleave. I run 2 of each but kinda want to raise my count. I also am against running a Mountain in my deck.

EDIT: I guess I ought to point out we are running different lists with different goals... I run BOP and Varolz combo to kill as fast as possible, instead of dredge cards / removal. So maybe stuff like Lavamancer / Salvage works better in your list.

code: 3idehup2

Quote from Parasitian »

Pitching in here by saying I don't think Tom has been "uncivil", he is definitely hard-pressed in his views but everyone does that at times and I'll admit I do the same very frequently. I personally have enjoyed his commentary because his direct criticism of Tasigur has made me contemplate changing my decklist. I still like Tasigur a lot but after reading his points I can see how Gurmag Angler could be better. He is one more mana which concerns me a lot but the fact that he is a zombie is very beneficial and a HUGE plus is that he beats Siege Rhino/goyf in combat instead of just bouncing off of them each turn.

I actually appreciate this comment quite a lot. Thanks, man.

To be fair I haven't done a whole lot of testing yet comparing the delve-men, but just logically (or "on paper" as people call it) I can't see how Tasigur is the best option. I could be completely wrong, I suppose.

So far in what testing I've done, I've run into some situations where I think "well, if this Angler was one less, I could cast it here". But instead I just do something else and save it for a later turn, and that something else is usually just about as powerful in that point of the game. I really like to drop him as one of the last big plays of the game, and the cost is almost a non-factor then.

Quote from Lord Hazanko »

I do think you are the one missing the point though. I don't think anyone should be playing 3-4 Tasigur, but as a 1-2 of he's pretty good. I admittedly prefer Mandrills because the trample is super relevant, especially if your playing Varolz combo And for the Angler I'm just extremely skeptical oh the extra Delve cost.

Running 1-2 vs. 3-4 was never the question. It's simply that of the 3 delve creatures, he seems like the worst. You and I both agree that Mandrills is probably better, and I'm currently testing the Angler.

But as far as I'm concerned, Angler is far more powerful when it's on the board than Tasigur, and since you don't want to play delve cards very early in the game, the extra delve card isn't very relevant.

We'll see where my testing takes me, but at the moment my point is that I don't see any reason to run Tasigur over the other two creatures.

Quote from Lord Hazanko »

Tom, what's with Viscera Seer in the deck? Are you just sacking Ghasts, and Crawlers to dig a little into your deck or something? Also I feel when you where asked to be more civil, it had nothing to do with swearing, but your incredibly hardlined stance on your opinions. Everything you've been arguing is just as subjective as everyone else's arguments, yet you are so firmly planted in your opinion. Like, instead of saying, "I think card A could be good, because it helps out with idea B" You'll say something like "Card A is the best card the the slot, and there's no reason to try any other card, because they just aren't as good." You see the difference? I don't know, but to me, that type of mentality is pretty annoying.

Seer was originally put in because I liked the protection Varolz offered against PtE and Anger the Gods. It's a 1 drop so it's easier to cast which is also relevant to VVine. Sacing also allows you to play gravecrawlers multiple times, so it's extra easy to get out VVines. And in that situation, it's basically pay 1 mana to scry 1, as many times as you like... great for finding what you need. As far as my behavior, that's my way of being assertive and grabbing attention (and lets be honest, that is in no way un-civil). And I find it very ironic when you're the one who just got done saying that people who think Tasigur is bad are "idiots". Like the other guy said you're missing the point, Tasigur might be alright but I can't see him being as good as the other two options.

Quote from creamy99 »

Quote from Tom »

The current list I'm testing is as follows:

DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
4 Birds of Paradise 4 Gravecrawler 4 Death's Shadow 2 Viscera Seer 4 Lotleth Troll 4 Satyr Wayfinder 4 Bloodghast 1 Rotting Rats 3 Varolz, the Scar-Striped 4 Vengevine 1 Gurmag Angler	4 Faithless Looting 2 Grisly Salvage 19 Land

Can I ask why you run 19 lands? Sometimes it's hard enough to hit 3 mana in a game with 20. What do you do to make it work? Or was that just a miscount?

Not a miscount. I run 4 Birds, 4 Satyr, 4 Faithless Looting. It works; 2 land hands are ideal, and if I have a BOP or Looting, 1 land hands can be totally keepable. I rarely want to see more than 3-4 mana, so I've found this count to work quite nicely.

Hey just realized that whoever was so excited about dark deal might have overlooked shattered perception.

The current list I'm testing is as follows:


Gurmag is for experimental, seeing whether I like it or Mandrills better, or Tasigur I guess.

Quote from Zx_xZ »

Tasigur is much better in a grindy lategame scenario when you are attempting to Topdeck something you need to break a stalemated board. You cannot look at cards just based on one circumstance. I believe Tasigur has enough going for him in both value in tight scrapes that gives him the nod over Angler, and the extra toughness vs Siege Rhino which is very good against DredgeVine is extremely Relevant. The one extra cost on Angler also limits your ability to make explosive plays which is a very big thing for this deck. If Wizards of the Coast printed a Lotleth Troll variant that costed 3 but was amazingly better than LolTroll, we still would most likely not use it because the loss of 1 turn is major in a deck that wants to flood the board as quickly as possible. Sure it might not matter turns 3 or 4, but in one of situations where delve creatures are strongest is their ability to be big very early with very little input. I would also ask that you try to remain a bit more civil Tom.

I am fiddling around with Flex Slots right now, and I really don't want to go above 28 creatures. Currently my suite of spells is 4 Faithless Looting, 3 Abrupt Decay, 3 Desperate Ravings. Since I am firmly back in 4 color, I have been loving Ravings much much more than Grisly, especially because I run 2 Grave-Troll for value. The more of your deck you see, the more you can play since even our graveyard is our hand.

How is Tasigur better in a late-game top-deck scenario than Angler? With Tasigur you'd probably have to wait a turn and hope your 4 mana gets you somewhere the turn after. With Angler you can immediately bring back Gravecrawlers and Vengevines, assuming you have at least one of each, which hopefully is the case, and is by no means uncommon. Really the only benefit I see in Tasigur is the cost, which doesn't matter if it's late game and you're top-decking. It could matter in the early game, but again, I don't think it's very good to play delve cards in the early game.

Angler and Tasigur have the same toughness, so I suppose you are referring to Tasigur vs. Mandrils... eh, I think trample is better than passing the "seige rhino test", and again I feel that Tasigur's ability is just hideous, there's almost always going to be something I'd rather spend my mana on.

I don't know where you're coming from on asking me to be civil; I modded this section for like a year. I swore once and not in a mean way, for me all swearing is un-starred so it's just another word, and for you it's starred, so...? I guess I can come off as snappy, but that's just my way of being assertive. Sorry, man. I play mafia on this very website, so my language/mood can rub off sometimes I guess.

Back on topic, Desperate Ravings is an interesting choice. I never really liked the random part, but if it's working for you, have you considered burning inquiry? It's card disadvantage, but it could potentially be more powerful, and it also messes with your opponent's plans.

And yeah, deadmarmon also shares the opinion I've had for the last few weeks; the delve-men ain't even that great. Early game they mess with your other strategies, and late game they are meh. Though I do want to try them again, and see if I can try to play them at some sweet spot in the middle.

Quote from creamy99 »

I disagree 100%. Hooting Mandrills has trample, which helps us push through damage. Both Angler & Mandrills pass the Bolt test, but extra points of damage are necessary with this deck. A 5/5 vanilla creature without any abilities is terrible in a competitive tournament. Also, I believe off the top of my head Angler makes you delve one more card, which might be harder to achieve in the early game. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

In what world is it not relevant? Granted it is not the first thing you want to be doing with your mana, but still...if you are in top deck mode with your mana, it mills you 2 and gives you something back. It might not be your first choice, but something from your graveyard is either more removal or a free creature to cast from your yard. I agree it's mana intensive, but options are what makes this deck so much fun and strategic!

Yes it is one delve card more, which might be harder to achieve in the early game. Except that if you are wrecking your grave to cast these delve-men in the early game, I've found you put yourself more behind than ahead.

I tested a bit with Mandrills and almost never found the trample relevant... If you did take the early game route, trample barely matters, you've got a huge creature. It's like complaining about goyf not having trample. You're beating down and they usually don't want to block... so what if it doesn't have trample. If you play it as one of the last cards in your hand, which I found to be the better route, usually you still have a lot more creatures than them and trample is only relevant sometimes.

If you talk about wanting trample to be more aggressive, I'd argue that having a 5/5 that can bring back gravecrawlers and thus VVines is actually more aggressive than a 4/4 with an ability that is only semi-relevant. I mean hey, they chump your Angler and take 4 from a Vine, or they chump a Vine and take 4 from Mandrills. This is just one of many examples where I find trample to be lackluster.

But again, I'd like to restate that I am not sure about Angler being better than Mandrills.

What I am confident about, is that Angler is better than Tasigur. Tasigur is easily the worst of the 3. If you ever actually use his ability, you're probably dead. And even if you're not, you get a crap card out of your grave. Woo Hoo. A 4/5 body with nothing else going for it is strictly worse than the 4/4 trample you get with Mandrills. And I'll definitely exile another card to get a 5/5 which can bring back Crawlers and VVines consistently, and for much less mana than what Tasigur offers.

I'm going to test with Angler and Mandrills and see, each time I get one, if I wish it were the other. Then hopefully I'll be more confident on which is better. But I'm not going to test with Tasigur, because that would be a waste of my ******* time; as far as I'm concerned people just want to play him because they'd rather have a rare in their deck.

He's bad with Goyf and he's bad in multiples. The only impact Tasigur can make is the same as what he's made already.. 1-2 of them in some decks. He is a 1-2 mana 4/5 often which is good, but his anti-synergy with stuff like Goyf/Bob makes him worse.

I'm surprised people find him much easier to cast than Gurmag Angler, but I'll take their word for it.

All this talk about Tasigur is kind of annoying. In no way shape or form is he any better than Gurmag Angler.

The card is generally not for the first couple turns in the game, so 6 delve instead of 5 is pretty irrelevant. Yet for the extra card, you get more power AND, most importantly, a zombie type. EDIT: To clarify, if you are trying to play one of these delve cards on turn 2/3, you're going to end up losing. Your graveyard is now empty and all your hard work dies to PtE, among other things. EDIT#2: I hope no one tries to act like Tasigur's ability is relevant, because... it's not.

I believe Angler is even better than Mandrills, though I'm not positive. This deck tends to swarm, so trample isn't always that useful unless you have Varolz. It's good, don't get me wrong, but I'd rather have a zombie type so I can easily get my Vengevines back almost every turn, even if my board is empty and Angler is a topdeck.

It's completely unplayable. If you want to call that playable, you could also call 60 Islands playable. You can play it, but you're pretty much going to lose. Dredge versions are bad enough, unburial rights in a dredge list that is also 5 colors is absolutely hideous.

@deadmarmon: please get a proper avatar, you are messing with MTGS code.

@parasitian: I forgot what kind of list you are running, but in mine (non-dredgers) I've found Satyr to be way better. I'm currently running 4 Satyr, 3 Salvage. I wouldn't go below 2 Salvage, I think, because Salvage does help you when you are falling behind. But as an aggro deck, I'd much rather be playing Satyr as creature 1, and then dropping another creature to bring back some VVines. Having an extra attacker/blocker is also very relevant.

@taptwo: Glad you like it. I think that although faithless isn't as good as it is in dredge, it is still very good in this type of list though. Aside from Lotleth, it's the only way to discard VVine/Ghast that are in your hand. It helps you find sideboard cards, land, Varolz, whatever you need. Just be sure late game to keep a not-so-useful card in your hand like a land so that you can flashback Looting when you have nothing else to play.

I continue to test with that list and I like Seer, though I do at times wish I had some removal in the Main. But other times I don't, so IDK. I think it's fine how it is but I still need to do more testing.