Even with things on the board, I'm not sure how I deal with this as a Control player. The best bet is probably trading with Ojutai, but for this next year players will attack with Ojutai into Dig into Silumgar's Scorn and Hero's Downfall and be reaching for their sideboard only to have this come down and finish the deal.
Yep. This is usually game-over vs. control. Last time I played this vs. control, they had squadron hawks to block potentially... not anymore... Absolute best-case-scenario now you trade your Ojutai or Dragonlord Silumgar, or immediately find a Crux. Best case you're losing one of your win-cons or taking 8 then wrathing.
Been a lot of fuel for the fire against control. I was liking my Esper dragons but control is getting kicked in the nuts wit this set release, IMO. Goblin Piledriver, creatures that turn into planeswalkers, a number of long-game artifacts and enchantments, and I can't find any real tools for control. Languish?
Edit: Foul-Tongue invocation is a good catch I didn't think of, thanks Sliver Lord (next post)
Ah man red gets Piledriver and blue gets a Djinn that's not even good enough for constructed. Some exciting spoilers but I'd love to see more love for blue
Yes dies to red removal but the upside is really strong. With a single pump or protection spell like valorous stance in response to removal, it's already a 3/3 trample and if they don't draw another removal card soon, it threatens to get huge. I like it.
Last time we were in Zendikar, mono-G ramp into Primeval Titan and Eldrazi was a thing (I played it and enjoyed it), and I see this card fitting that kind of ramp deck perfectly. Right now in Standard the power level is dialed way down and there's no more Titans to ramp into but Ugin is another spicy target for all that ramp (also, Ugin + colorless Eldrazi? Yes please)
Cuz if counterspells were too good in the past, the only way to even it out is to keep them underpowered? IDK if this is related to the current Jace strategy, which is that JTMS was so good, all future Jaces need to be kept terrible (Jace, the Living Guildpact anyone?). I'll keep hoping for a good counterspell.
I have enjoyed this thread tremendously so my thanks to the many participants. I decided to pick up U tron as my first modern deck (likely a terrible idea but I'm willing to face the repercussions). As I already have Wurmcoil Engine and Ugin, it was very cheap to throw together (some fraction of what the manabase alone costs for most modern decks). The playstyle is to my liking. I even made a little signature for it. Ugin included because I think he is a new staple for the deck :). Unfortunately he cannot be tutored for.
Esper Dragons loses Pain Lands, Scry Lands, Hero's Downfall, Thoughtseize, Bile Blight, Dissolve, Drown in Sorrow and Negate.
the deck that always rebounds easily from post-rotation is the red aggro archetype.
The Green Devotion was the only one that kind of "survived" the last rotation. Next rotation, the decks that will most likely survive are the Den Protector and Raptor decks, no doubt.
But post-rotation, a lot of thing changes. It's not about "what deck survives" but more about "what engines/synergies survive".
With those losses, particularly downfall, thoughtseize, and bile blight, I wonder if the esper archetype shifts from UBw to UWb. If there's some decent white removal printed, this could be pretty viable. Black needed for crux, silumgar and foul-tongue mostly.
Abzan does have the ability to make Esper dragons feel like a pretty mediocre deck WhiteWhisper. But there are other matchups out there where the deck functions really well and it's very fun to pilot. We all play decks for different reasons; for me it was wanting to play control, wanting to play Dig through Time, wanting that late game inevitability. I have to say, Esper dragons is immensely satisfying to play, for me at least. The decision-making processes are difficult but rewarding. Other decks, maybe less so (DURRR SIEGE RHINO DURR - sorry, couldn't help it). Don't get too down about your 0-2 drop. As Killax said luck is a big part of it too.
Honestly if our deck had a very favorable matchup vs. Abzan, it would probably be OP. Cuz there's not too many other matchups that I'd like to avoid. Even against Red aggro which should really prey upon control is pretty easy post board.
For some retarded reason the local casual community always "hates" on Control even though it isn't even the clear best top-cut deck.
I see this a lot too. Something along the lines of "OH you're playing control, UGH (scowl) I don't know how anyone can find that fun." This is an exaggeration but the sentiment there is easily detectable. I guess it's partially understandable, because when our deck is functioning, theirs isn't... they don't get to play the game when everything gets countered or EOT killed. But I think their misery is what makes the deck so fun so it's a two-sided sword I guess haha ;).
Nice work Xentrikz! I'm considering myself going up to 4x Ojutai and 6 dragons in total, to make the dragon plan even more consistent and keep Scorn and Foul Tongues optimally effective. However I must ask, what about the lack of Ugin? I had him out, and now i've got him back in my MB and I like having him there, one of the only cards that can snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. But I suppose it's less necessary on the more aggressive 4x Ojutai racing plan?
Upping white sources comes at a cost to U and B which are both very dialed-in in these lists to enable T2 Silumgar's Scorn and T2 Bile Blight. So you have to ask if muddying up your manabase for your T2 plays on games 1-3 is worth having a marginally better SB card that only comes in for games 2-3. As I think my tone implies, it's not worth it. When this deck forgoes potential T2 interaction due to mana issues, the consequences are painful.
1. Only 3 dragons makes Silumgar's Scorn too inconsistent and is a major problem. You'll want 5-6 dragons and 4 scorns, it's SO good.
2. Given more dragons, should probably do 3 Foul Tongues main. It's also real good. I've been considering 4.
3. 3 ultimate price is too many, coming up blank too often against Abzan (don't cut Bile Blight, too good vs. aggro/tokens)
4. Land OK dunno how it exactly compares to the manabase used here in almost every post, usually no Temple of Silence.
Specifics of this are up to you but this is how your list varies from what's been posted... did you read the primer on the previous page? Killax linked to a bunch of top 16 decklists to give you an idea of what has been successful.
Killax great start on the Primer. And I want to go on to echo some of the sentiments expressed on this page by you and racerxen, particularly regarding the Abzan matchup. That matchup is difficult; I lost to Abzan midrange yesterday despite playing the matchup rather solidly. First game I get him down to 4 with SDD but his double Abzan Charm had drawn him into too many threats for me to defend against, while I hit land, land, anticipate (which reveals 3 lands) and die. Game 2 despite hitting him with Ojutai, he draws into Dragonlord Dromoka to stop my aerial assault and follows up with Elspeth. I manage to deal with both Dromoka and Elspeth when he lands another Elspeth. I take care of it too but end up at 2 life and he topdecks Siege Rhino to kill me. Not the first time I've stabilized and then died to a rhino off the top...
I appreciate the necessary dialog contained in the last several pages. The fact that so much discussion arises over such small details (like which Silumgar to use or how to split them) shows how streamlined the rest of the deck has become. Many lists out there have more or less evolved the same way, and you have paid excellent attention to these minor evolutionary details.
I would like to see the primer because I'm particularly interested in sideboarding strategies and metagaming calls. For instance, if there's a lot of Abzan in the meta, what can we do to hate it? Or Gx midrange/megamorph. A section detailing the matchups would be pretty cool.
There are also minor pro tips for piloting this deck, many of which you have mentioned (attack with SDD then bile blight to kill x4 creatures, use bile blight on your Ojutai to kill their Ojutai after an attack with SDD, using bile blight on your Ojutai to dodge Elspeth's minus), as well as subtle things like when to attack with Ojutai, when not to, when to Thoughtseize etc.
BTW on an unrelated note, when you say "in special" I think you would be better served by the word "especially."
Why not grixis? Because the mana is WAY too strained. Try goldfishing it... It just does not work. It cuts too many B and U sources to add in R, making Scorn and Bile Blight way too unwieldy. At the same time, it doesn't add enough R for T3 Anger of the gods (or even turn 4, or 5...).
Yep. This is usually game-over vs. control. Last time I played this vs. control, they had squadron hawks to block potentially... not anymore... Absolute best-case-scenario now you trade your Ojutai or Dragonlord Silumgar, or immediately find a Crux. Best case you're losing one of your win-cons or taking 8 then wrathing.
Been a lot of fuel for the fire against control. I was liking my Esper dragons but control is getting kicked in the nuts wit this set release, IMO. Goblin Piledriver, creatures that turn into planeswalkers, a number of long-game artifacts and enchantments, and I can't find any real tools for control. Languish?
Edit: Foul-Tongue invocation is a good catch I didn't think of, thanks Sliver Lord (next post)
OTOH this set has really shown a lot of material that just WRECKS control
With those losses, particularly downfall, thoughtseize, and bile blight, I wonder if the esper archetype shifts from UBw to UWb. If there's some decent white removal printed, this could be pretty viable. Black needed for crux, silumgar and foul-tongue mostly.
Honestly if our deck had a very favorable matchup vs. Abzan, it would probably be OP. Cuz there's not too many other matchups that I'd like to avoid. Even against Red aggro which should really prey upon control is pretty easy post board.
I see this a lot too. Something along the lines of "OH you're playing control, UGH (scowl) I don't know how anyone can find that fun." This is an exaggeration but the sentiment there is easily detectable. I guess it's partially understandable, because when our deck is functioning, theirs isn't... they don't get to play the game when everything gets countered or EOT killed. But I think their misery is what makes the deck so fun so it's a two-sided sword I guess haha ;).
I think you can get through the Abzan matchups with Self-Inflicted Wound and not need to do glare of heresy.
1. Only 3 dragons makes Silumgar's Scorn too inconsistent and is a major problem. You'll want 5-6 dragons and 4 scorns, it's SO good.
2. Given more dragons, should probably do 3 Foul Tongues main. It's also real good. I've been considering 4.
3. 3 ultimate price is too many, coming up blank too often against Abzan (don't cut Bile Blight, too good vs. aggro/tokens)
4. Land OK dunno how it exactly compares to the manabase used here in almost every post, usually no Temple of Silence.
Specifics of this are up to you but this is how your list varies from what's been posted... did you read the primer on the previous page? Killax linked to a bunch of top 16 decklists to give you an idea of what has been successful.
I'm putting self-inflicted wound in the side.
I appreciate the necessary dialog contained in the last several pages. The fact that so much discussion arises over such small details (like which Silumgar to use or how to split them) shows how streamlined the rest of the deck has become. Many lists out there have more or less evolved the same way, and you have paid excellent attention to these minor evolutionary details.
I would like to see the primer because I'm particularly interested in sideboarding strategies and metagaming calls. For instance, if there's a lot of Abzan in the meta, what can we do to hate it? Or Gx midrange/megamorph. A section detailing the matchups would be pretty cool.
There are also minor pro tips for piloting this deck, many of which you have mentioned (attack with SDD then bile blight to kill x4 creatures, use bile blight on your Ojutai to kill their Ojutai after an attack with SDD, using bile blight on your Ojutai to dodge Elspeth's minus), as well as subtle things like when to attack with Ojutai, when not to, when to Thoughtseize etc.
BTW on an unrelated note, when you say "in special" I think you would be better served by the word "especially."