I have never had good results from Ohran Viper, at least outside of decks like Deveri or Edric that want to run more creatures, or where LD or something slows down the game. Thing is, even Phyrexian Arena has not been the be-all of card draw for me. Unless it's played on Turn 2-3, it usually gets in the realm of 2-3 cards before it either gets blown up or the game ends. The upside would seem to justify it at 3 mana, but actually, playing it is the last thing I want to do with my Turn 2-3 (ramp being first choice). Also, getting the cards on a delayed basis is terrible. A creature form of it is even worse when you consider taking the deck into less storm-saturated metas where wraths (and blocks) are more common. I don't anticipate ever casting GSZ for it either, since that will never fetch Viper over Dryad Arbor early, and late is exactly when Viper becomes terrible. Being tutorable is not a big perk, tbh. I would test Syphon Mind in its place in a deck like this. Three cards upfront for 4 mana is a good deal, it sets up wins for the next turn much better, and the small measure of disruption from the discard is not bad, either. It's a much better topdeck, particularly with all the cheap removal you run.[/quote[ Phyrexian Arena is an all-star card and the first thing I go to compare my card advantage permanents. If I can play a an Arena on turn two, that's a keepable hand. Ohran Viper can be Green Sun's Zenith'd, sacrificed to Natural Order, wear a Pattern of Rebirth, fuels Dread Return... etc.
[quote]Also, I'm wondering whether you're happy with your 3cmc options in this deck. There is all the 1cmc dorks, but few 3-cost follow up's. I think Somberwald Sage might do a lot of work here, particularly because you're not casting your General until T3 at earliest. Options like Sage, or even Greenweaver Druid, etc, have you finding 2 more mana for your general, then having 2-3 more mana on your T3 for other plays. Maybe try it in place of Crypt Ghast or other mana that's >4 cmc?
I'll probably test Somberwald Sage. Could be great for getting to those higher-cmc creatures.
You can have an equipment subtheme in competitive decks, but a "tribal equipment"-style deck will not be competitive. If you wanted to play a competitive deck with lots of equipments, I would play a bunch of hatebears with a beater like Rafiq or Teneb as my commander.
Absolutely. If you can pick your seating, there are definitely things you can do to get an edge. For example, if you are threatened more by one player or have to go before them for some reason, sit so that your turn is right before theirs. That way, there's only a 1/4 chance that they get a turn before you do. Sitting in a certain position to a counterspell player can also affect the game seriously. This is why I always recommend that you randomize your seating during tournament play and change your seating around when playing with your local playgroup.
The main changes are switching up the manabase to include a Natural Order package. Bane of Progress is in, and it's awesome. Ohran Viper looks a little weird but in six months y'all will be playing it; it's pretty good. Think of it as a Green Sun's-able Phyrexian Arena.
Mr. razzliox, good to be back. After moving in and waiting for the Verizon people to install our internet, I am finally able to access internet at my house. Holla.
Interesting move to go towards the mana dork route. I have tried a Teferi, Temporal Archmage list and I cannot bear to bring myself past 34 lands. In goldfishes and in actual games, my percentages of drawing keepable hands are severely dimninished when I tried the 33 or 32 land approach (although statistically, it shouldn't have as big of impact in cutting 1-2 lands for more mana rocks). With the dork plan in action, would you consider adding Craterhoof Behemoth to your list? As a reanimator target, it's really not bad but requires that other creatures be on board. With the increase in dorks, you can capitalize on the power of The Hoof much more than you previously could have. Even hardcasting it doesn't seem like an unfeasible option.
Craterhoof Behemoth is pretty unplayable. I don't consistently get enough creatures to kill one player, let alone a full table. Maybe combat plus Jarad's fling will get there, but still, I wouldn't bet on it.
So I had a question, Is this a metagame call or a differecne between sultai reanimator and Jarad. In the sultai list instedad of tarnished citadel I use forbidden orchard. An incentive to get players off my case, and it will usually deal me less damage then citadel in the long run when i need colors. Is that a fair assessment or am i missing something?
I play against Edric so I prefer Tarnished Citadel. Creatures are a resource and I would rather lose life points than give my opponents resources.
I know this isn't the thread for it, but I appreciate all this intelligent discussion about Jarad. My store recently changed multiplayer commander to favor "fun games" (which is fine) and is starting a separate French Duel Tournament. Is Jarad still possible? I'm going to try converting him since my love outweighs my brain here. The biggest losses are H-Druid and Entomb (on top of staples like Top and Sol Ring, obviously), so the big thing is how to replace HD and better deal with direct assault. already looking at more manadorks and a few more fatties. If you don't want this non-multiplayer polluting the thread, it's cool, but if you have a couple suggestions or a reason why I shouldn't bother trying the conversion, it would be appreciated. Thx.
Here's the problem though. Magic cards are printed for, tested for, and designed for, by and large, two-player formats where players have twenty life, consistency, etc. Cards like Sylvan Primordial are fair there - a reanimator deck with the commander card pool is going to be going for Iona, J-Tax, maybe some other toolboxy ones. But in a format where not only does it set three players back a turn in development at worst, and it ramps you three... that's just too good. There are lots of cards that need to be banned because of how they interact with how the format is structured. Ad Nauseam is another good example - it draws twice as many cards as it does in the formats it was designed for. Trade Secrets.
I may post an article on the subject within the next month or so.
Hey guys, been away for awhile. Finals are over for me and I'm out of school, so I'm focusing on EDH again. I've made some changes to Jarad recently. I'm currently playing something very close to this.
I'm interested on your assessment of grisly salvage. It's a card that has been in and out of my build. I love that it's an instant and can fix your mana and/or enable some awesome early reanimation targets. Other times it can whiff or when you have an established board state it can be very meh to draw. I think I want to give it another go now that I am running a delirium card and the gitrog monster.
I played it awhile back and eventually cut it. I've been thinking of re-adding it so that my extra reanimates aren't just dead cards all the time, but it's not in my current build and overall isn't a great card. When you have no graveyard tricks in hand, casting it as a "fair" card is pretty feelbad.
I assume you've play testing or played against several Gitrog decks, and I was curious on your assessment over which BG combo is "superior." Obviously they use different combos, but they have pretty similar playstyles. I kind of prefer Jarad, since you don't need your commander to go off, but he is definitely helpful as a backup - but I haven't done a lot of testing with the frog.
I don't think they have very similar playstyles at all actually. Gitrog is a much faster deck with much less resilience. It certainly has a lot of potential.
Jokes aside I would ban Ad Naus for sure. That card I think forces a lot of fairer archetypes out of the format simply because they have no good interaction for Ad Naus spell-based decks.
Without any sort of tournament data, it's hard to tell what's over-represented in the format. I haven't heard anyone so far claiming that one deck is head and shoulders above others. With the info we have, it's more or less an opinion on "should fast mana be banned?" Personally, I don't think so (I think dork-based decks might stand to gain too much?) but I do really think it's just a matter of personal opinion.
I would love to test with Recurring Nightmare, Protean Hulk, and Gifts off the list. Other stuff like Worldfire could come off and nobody would care.
Protean Hulk should stay banned. That gives any green/x deck access to boonweaver-like combo potential, and you don't even have to build your deck around it. In my Jarad I would only need to add Viscera Seer and getting Protean Hulk to die once wins the game with cards in my deck. That's pretty insane with Jarad as a sac outlet. Currently there's 5-color a deck struggling to be tier one that kills by putting an Omniscience into play off Flash + Academy Rector. Having Protean Hulk would make that deck insane.
if there could be a true "competitive banlist" it must contain only the cards that separate commander from vintage. (IMO)
everything else doesnt need to be banned. - read sirlin about gamebalance and you can understand why.
of course you can argue with other formats being "healthy" only because of bans.
you can see it that way but you can also see that it just keeps alot of decks playable.
that has nothing to do with balance itself. its just lots of pet decks that people want to play (and you need those people to have the game, but do you ever ban a queen in chess because its unhealthy?)
i'm unshure about tinker and balance as they are not THAT much defining vintage. or are they?
i guess they are only in the way as that is the only format left where you can play them but are they gamedefining in vintage itself?
also karakas is in a way strange in commander but on the other hand why limit white if intention is not to limit.
from there on just a handfull of playable BUT competitve strategies and decks would emerge and bring their antagonistic counterstrategies. a balance will be found by nature (just lots of people dont want to see that as balanced)
oppression is not an argument for bans in competition.
This idea would kill competitive commander. Commander is not Vintage and letting cards like Yawgmoth's Bargain, G-Brand, Tolarian Academy, Channel, etc are going to make the format one kind of deck - storm/fast comboi. Never mind cards that just fundamentally work differently in Commander like Trade Secrets. As someone who plays competitive chess, banning a queen is a terrible analogy because a queen actually provides balance; without her, top-level players could tie virtually every game against each other.
So can I just play a deck while just changing the commander to get free points over players who sit with the same deck throughout?
What are your anti-collusion measures?
How are pods determined? I'm not familiar with Discord is it involved in this?
With this update, switching decks is no longer incentivized.
Collusion is only a problem at high-level play with prizes on the line. When the goal is to have fun and become a better player, it's not a problem. Collusion wasn't a problem during my recent tournament nor is it a problem in our regular Monday night Cockatrice games.
I want to participate, but I'm unclear how to do so through Discord text chat. I have the app, I've been text chatting with folks, but I don't know what to do to sign up.
Join the server. At 9:00 EST, we will begin playing games, and we'll go to #edh-discussion to do that. Once game rooms are assigned, we'll go into #game-room-1 through however many pods we have, then coordinate with your opponents.
So can I just play a deck while just changing the commander to get free points over players who sit with the same deck throughout?
What are your anti-collusion measures?
How are pods determined? I'm not familiar with Discord is it involved in this?
With this update, switching decks is no longer incentivized.
Collusion is only a problem at high-level play with prizes on the line. When the goal is to have fun and become a better player, it's not a problem. Collusion wasn't a problem during my recent tournament nor is it a problem in our regular Monday night Cockatrice games.
Living Death and Yawgmoth's Will are mostly cut for speed. They're great effects but I need the slots for more manadorks. With the inclusion of more manadorks, Diabolic Intent will be added. Updates pending
That's a shame. Let me know how it works out. Would you also consider Chainer's Edict as well? The flashback cost is out of this world, but it does have a built in recur function if you need it. Granted, it is Sorcery speed - so I'm not sure how well it will work for you.
You are confusing Diabolic Intent with Diabolic Edict. Edicts are pretty much always bad unless you are metagaming against Narset or they are global (like Fleshbag Marauder). Besides, I'm trying to play less removal and be more proactive now.
@razzliox, so I showed my friend this list and asked you didn't include Birthing Pod in your deck. Any reason why you didn't?
It's super slow. I have to include a pod chain and make sure I have a worthy target at all CMCs, and will want two on lots of them too. Currently my best chain is sac a one-drop for Hermit Druid, activate it, sac it for E Wit, sac it for Mindslicer, sac it for Sidisi or Phyrexian Delver. It's possibly worth re-testing but I'm not 100% convinced.
Hey guys! Just thought I'd make a post to announce that over on reddit, we're starting a Cockatrice league. You don't need a reddit account to sign up, but making one is quick and easy, and will let you participate in group discussions more. Here are the rules:
Quote from razzliox »
* Games will be organized twice a week, with the intention of having one organized mainly for the American players and one organized mainly for the Eurasian players - on Mondays around 8:30 PM EST, and one on Wednesday around 20:00 Greenwich Time. Players are free to participate in both games, but points will only be rewarded on one performance (whichever gives you more points).
* Players will be awarded one point per game they play, and two additional points for each game they win. Players will be awarded an additional point for sharing the winning decklist, provided they have not already won with that commander in that season. So, if I play Jarad and lose (1), play Jarad and win (3), share the list I won with (1), and play Jarad again and win (3), I'll have a total of eight points. If instead I play my last game with Sidisi and win, then I can share that list too and get an additional bonus point. The reason for this rule is twofold - to increase meta diversity by incentivizing not playing with the same deck all the time, and to increase internal growth by incentivizing sharing innovations and ideas with your league-mates.
* Games will be played in pods of 3 or 4, depending on the amount of players. To determine the number of pods, calculate the maximum number of four-player games that can be played, then take your remainder and turn each of those four-player games into a three-player game and assign the extra player to the remainder until it becomes a three-player game. For example, if 14 people show up, the maximum number of four-player games is three, with two remaining. So, one of those four-player games will have to turn into a three-player game, and the remaining three players will also play a three-player game. In the event that exactly five people show up, you will play a five-player game.
* Currently there are two season structures being debated. Structure One: Each season will last 8 weeks, meaning 8 games in each timezone. Players will receive points for what they play in those two months, and at the end of each season there will be a winner declared. Structure Two: Each season will last 4 weeks, but they will cascade into each other. In other words, at the end of February your point total will count the games you played in both February and January, in March your point total will count the games you played in February and March, et cetera. At the end of the season, there winner will be the player with the most points for the previous two months, and there will be an "honorable mention" for whoever got the most points within that one month. In case of a points-tie, the player with a higher win-percentage will be the winner.
* Games will be played via Cockatrice and organized via Discord. There is a link to our discord server in the sidebar [of the subreddit this was originally posted on] - the blue button that says "Text & Voice Chat."
I think your assessment is correct but your conclusion is a little harsh. Nobody is forced to pick a side. My friends and I are decidedly filthy casuals to the point where I'd never invest in the cards for a real competitive deck, but that hasn't stopped us from proxying up a competitive game once in a while. You can be one person and play the game both ways, you just have to know what way you're playing when you sit down.
For an analogy, I think making extra rules to try and bridge casual and competitive gamers is like trying to hybridize the rules of scrabble and monopoly because you can't pick which to play. It's a dumb idea that leaves nobody happy. Just play one or the other, and picking one now doesn't mean you can't play the other later.
Players who can go either way on the competitive-casual spectrum aren't a problem of course. This article was specifically aimed at the attempt to reconcile players who don't want to play the game the same way. I like your analogy, though I think it's a little off - Scrabopoly might be a fun game, even if it's a bit dumb, if everyone's playing with the same kind of goal in mind.
For the specific examples, the rule that you get 1 point for each time you cast an X spell for double digits is just a bad rule, in itself. It immediately opens itself up to exploits. For a point system like that, it seems to me that you should never reward something with points that can be completed more than one time per game. Otherwise, the rewards of that subgame will be out of 1 to 1 parity with the objective of the actual Magic. As one example, you could reward a player 1 point for being the first in a game to damage an opponent. Or award a point for only the first time an X spell in double digits is cast. Point is, the issue seems to be with the rules of the point system themselves, not the fact that it is a point system.
I still think this kind of points system won't really solve the problem. Even if it's a bit more cleverly designed, the competitive players will still be playing the most efficient strategy they can to gain points, and a lot of the time that's stax. Your opponents can't resolve their spells, so you get as much time as you want to accomplish every achievement.
Please do it just once on video
I'll probably test Somberwald Sage. Could be great for getting to those higher-cmc creatures.
1x Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
//Land (30)
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Bayou
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Bojuka Bog
1x City of Brass
1x Command Tower
1x Dryad Arbor
3x Forest
1x Llanowar Wastes
1x Mana Confluence
1x Marsh Flats
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Polluted Delta
1x Strip Mine
4x Swamp
1x Tarnished Citadel
1x Twilight Mire
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Woodland Cemetery
//Creature (31)
1x Baleful Force
1x Bane of Progress
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Bloom Tender
1x Corpse Connoisseur
1x Dark Confidant
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Elves of Deep Shadow
1x Elvish Mystic
1x Eternal Witness
1x Faerie Macabre
1x Fyndhorn Elves
1x Graveborn Muse
1x Hermit Druid
1x Llanowar Elves
1x Lord of Extinction
1x Massacre Wurm
1x Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
1x Mindslicer
1x Necrotic Ooze
1x Ohran Viper
1x Phyrexian Delver
1x Phyrexian Devourer
1x Priest of Titania
1x Rune-Scarred Demon
1x Scorned Villager
1x Terastodon
1x Triskelion
1x Void Winnower
1x Wall of Roots
1x Woodfall Primus
1x Chrome Mox
1x Gilded Lotus
1x Mana Crypt
1x Scroll Rack
1x Sol Ring
//Instant (10)
1x Beast Within
1x Crop Rotation
1x Entomb
1x Krosan Grip
1x Murderous Cut
1x Nature's Claim
1x Putrefy
1x Snuff Out
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Worldly Tutor
//Sorcery (12)
1x Buried Alive
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Diabolic Intent
1x Dread Return
1x Exhume
1x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Jarad's Orders
1x Natural Order
1x Praetor's Grasp
1x Reanimate
1x Tooth and Nail
1x Toxic Deluge
//Enchantment (11)
1x Animate Dead
1x Carpet of Flowers
1x Dance of the Dead
1x Frontier Siege
1x Greater Good
1x Necromancy
1x Necropotence
1x Pattern of Rebirth
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Survival of the Fittest
1x Sylvan Library
The main changes are switching up the manabase to include a Natural Order package. Bane of Progress is in, and it's awesome. Ohran Viper looks a little weird but in six months y'all will be playing it; it's pretty good. Think of it as a Green Sun's-able Phyrexian Arena.
Craterhoof Behemoth is pretty unplayable. I don't consistently get enough creatures to kill one player, let alone a full table. Maybe combat plus Jarad's fling will get there, but still, I wouldn't bet on it.
I play against Edric so I prefer Tarnished Citadel. Creatures are a resource and I would rather lose life points than give my opponents resources.
Never on MODO, sorry.
Jarad ported into French is better as Meren.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/forum-1-vs-1-duel-commander/659564-meren-of-clan-nel-toth-duel-commander-french
I may post an article on the subject within the next month or so.
1x Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
1x Baleful Force
1x Bane of Progress
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Corpse Connoisseur
1x Dark Confidant
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Elves of Deep Shadow
1x Elvish Archdruid
1x Elvish Mystic
1x Eternal Witness
1x Faerie Macabre
1x Fyndhorn Elves
1x Graveborn Muse
1x Gyre Sage
1x Hermit Druid
1x Llanowar Elves
1x Lord of Extinction
1x Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
1x Mindslicer
1x Necrotic Ooze
1x Phyrexian Delver
1x Phyrexian Devourer
1x Priest of Titania
1x Rune-Scarred Demon
1x Scorned Villager
1x Terastodon
1x Triskelion
1x Void Winnower
1x Woodfall Primus
//Artifact (6)
1x Chrome Mox
1x Mana Crypt
1x Scroll Rack
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sol Ring
1x Thran Dynamo
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Bayou
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Bojuka Bog
1x City of Brass
1x Command Tower
1x Dryad Arbor
3x Forest
1x Llanowar Wastes
1x Mana Confluence
1x Marsh Flats
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Polluted Delta
1x Strip Mine
4x Swamp
1x Tarnished Citadel
1x Twilight Mire
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Windswept Heath
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Woodland Cemetery
//Instant (10)
1x Beast Within
1x Crop Rotation
1x Entomb
1x Krosan Grip
1x Murderous Cut
1x Nature's Claim
1x Putrefy
1x Snuff Out
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Worldly Tutor
1x Buried Alive
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Diabolic Intent
1x Dread Return
1x Exhume
1x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Jarad's Orders
1x Life/Death
1x Natural Order
1x Praetor's Grasp
1x Reanimate
1x Tooth and Nail
1x Toxic Deluge
//Enchantment (11)
1x Animate Dead
1x Carpet of Flowers
1x Dance of the Dead
1x Frontier Siege
1x Greater Good
1x Necromancy
1x Necropotence
1x Pattern of Rebirth
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Survival of the Fittest
1x Sylvan Library
Main changes are going back to the dorks plan with Natural Order, adding Bane of Progress, Corpse Connoisseur, T-Don.
I played it awhile back and eventually cut it. I've been thinking of re-adding it so that my extra reanimates aren't just dead cards all the time, but it's not in my current build and overall isn't a great card. When you have no graveyard tricks in hand, casting it as a "fair" card is pretty feelbad.
I don't think they have very similar playstyles at all actually. Gitrog is a much faster deck with much less resilience. It certainly has a lot of potential.
I would remove Sylvan Primordial and Griselbrand.
Jokes aside I would ban Ad Naus for sure. That card I think forces a lot of fairer archetypes out of the format simply because they have no good interaction for Ad Naus spell-based decks.
Protean Hulk should stay banned. That gives any green/x deck access to boonweaver-like combo potential, and you don't even have to build your deck around it. In my Jarad I would only need to add Viscera Seer and getting Protean Hulk to die once wins the game with cards in my deck. That's pretty insane with Jarad as a sac outlet. Currently there's 5-color a deck struggling to be tier one that kills by putting an Omniscience into play off Flash + Academy Rector. Having Protean Hulk would make that deck insane.
This idea would kill competitive commander. Commander is not Vintage and letting cards like Yawgmoth's Bargain, G-Brand, Tolarian Academy, Channel, etc are going to make the format one kind of deck - storm/fast comboi. Never mind cards that just fundamentally work differently in Commander like Trade Secrets. As someone who plays competitive chess, banning a queen is a terrible analogy because a queen actually provides balance; without her, top-level players could tie virtually every game against each other.
Join the server. At 9:00 EST, we will begin playing games, and we'll go to #edh-discussion to do that. Once game rooms are assigned, we'll go into #game-room-1 through however many pods we have, then coordinate with your opponents.
With this update, switching decks is no longer incentivized.
Collusion is only a problem at high-level play with prizes on the line. When the goal is to have fun and become a better player, it's not a problem. Collusion wasn't a problem during my recent tournament nor is it a problem in our regular Monday night Cockatrice games.
Pods will be determined using RNG. Discord is a text-based chat server that you can use online or by program. Here's an invitation to join our server.
First game up today!
You are confusing Diabolic Intent with Diabolic Edict. Edicts are pretty much always bad unless you are metagaming against Narset or they are global (like Fleshbag Marauder). Besides, I'm trying to play less removal and be more proactive now.
It's super slow. I have to include a pod chain and make sure I have a worthy target at all CMCs, and will want two on lots of them too. Currently my best chain is sac a one-drop for Hermit Druid, activate it, sac it for E Wit, sac it for Mindslicer, sac it for Sidisi or Phyrexian Delver. It's possibly worth re-testing but I'm not 100% convinced.
For a full discussion, check out this reddit thread.
Players who can go either way on the competitive-casual spectrum aren't a problem of course. This article was specifically aimed at the attempt to reconcile players who don't want to play the game the same way. I like your analogy, though I think it's a little off - Scrabopoly might be a fun game, even if it's a bit dumb, if everyone's playing with the same kind of goal in mind.
I still think this kind of points system won't really solve the problem. Even if it's a bit more cleverly designed, the competitive players will still be playing the most efficient strategy they can to gain points, and a lot of the time that's stax. Your opponents can't resolve their spells, so you get as much time as you want to accomplish every achievement.